Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Marcus on <03-09-19/1239:09>
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Build Notes-
Conceptually I'm aiming for a tech build that will grow like a magic build. Something able to take maximum advantage of Cash and karma. It will of course still suffer from essence limitation, upside is slow but progressive recover of resonance lost too cyberware, as it advances.
That all said there are couple rules questions that need to be considered:
What are the effects of COMPLEX FORM: OVERDRIVE on Limbs/Enhancements? It fairly easy to assume you can't go above +4, but are there any other limitations in effect?
When we have multiple attributes involved, What is valid, can they all be enhanced, I would assume separate rolls? Is armor a valid overdrive target?
Device within Capacity, are they valid targets for Overdrive?
Specialization for hardware, what's specific enough?
This example and probably any real version of this is going end up leaning super hard on qualities in creation. Taking a resonance stream at creation is actually disadvantageous, as is taking martial arts given the builds dependency on qualities. We should look at the language of the starting quality limits and starting karma expenditures.
Complex form over drive Pool, Give, that there is no point in getting greater then +4, the wording is half hit round up get added. we need 6.5 hits for +4, So something basically 19 dice to cap for overdrive. But that is probably well over cap for many applications. '
So thoughts? Concerns?
The example while clear is not very useful in pratical terms, as using the power implanted ware is not really a great plan.
Street Name:
Character Name:
Build: Sum to 10 Resources 1 (50k) Attributes 4 (24) Skills 2 (28/2) Race 1 (Human 3) TM 2 (Resonance) 3
Concept:
Attributes- (24) Limits- CM-
B 3 Mental Physical 11
A 2 Physical Stun 11
S 2 Social Overflow 5
R 5
L 4 Derived-
I 6 Composure
W 5 Judge Intent
C 5 Lift/Carry
Essence 4 Memory
Edge 2
Resonance 4
Initiative 11+1D6
Matrix Initiative 10+4D6
Combat Pools-
Qualities- -23/+25 (-27 karma) Complex Form
Golden Screwdriver (Cyberlegs) (-8) Overclock Cyberware
Trust Lore not Data (-5) Infusion of Matrix Attribute (Sleaze)
Data Anomaly (-3)
One with the Matrix (-2)
Candle in the Dark (-5)
Code of Honor (+15)
Stolen Gear (+10) (100k)
Resonance Stream (Cyberadept) (-20 karma)
Martial Art Style (TAE KWON DO) (-7) (Kick)
Paragon (Soldier) (Free)
Skills- 28/2
Unarmed (TAE KWON DO)
Software
Hardware (Cyberlimbs)
Hacking (Hack on The Fly)
Perception
Etiquette
Knowledge Skills- (20) Languages- ()
Cyberware- (Cash in k units) (Essence) [Capacity]
Customized Optimized Obvious Full Cyberleg (104k)(E-2.0) [TBD] (Stolen)
Totals: (4k) (TBD
Gear-
Ammunition-
Armor-
Sleeping Tiger Suit (Armor 13) (17.6)
(Custom Fit, Holster, Newest Model, Ruthenium Polymer Coating (Rating 3))
Modifications: Non-Conductive [6], Auto-Injector (Combat Drug) [2], Biomonitor [1], AR Gloves [1]
Mirrored Sunglasses Rating 4 (2.4)
Modifications: Vision Enhancement [4]
Deck-
Programs-
Commlinks-
ID’s-
Fake Sin Rating 4 (10) (Name) Fake Sins Rating 2 (5) (Name)
PI license Rating 4 (.8) PI license Rating 2 (.4)
Augmentation License Rating 4 (.8) Augmentation License Rating 2 (.4)
Vehicle-
Medium Lifestyle
Total:
Contacts- (15)
Karma-
Stolen Gear (+2) (100k)
Resonance Stream (Cyberadept) (-20 karma)
Martial Art Style (TAE KWON DO) (-7) (Kick)
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What is "Stolen Ware" ?
I have not seen this before.
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It's a negative quality in No Future.
Oops Miss typed that one:
STOLEN GEAR
(NEGATIVE QUALITY)
BONUS: 1 TO 20 KARMA
(177 No Future)
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I think you can go above +4 with overdrive.
As to what it can buff... Im not sure. Maybe 1 device, meaning both its agility and strength rating at the same time... not sure about capacity stuff inside it.
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It's a negative quality in No Future.
Oops Miss typed that one:
STOLEN GEAR
(NEGATIVE QUALITY)
BONUS: 1 TO 20 KARMA
(177 No Future)
So what is the downside to this quality?
I think it might be just what I need to finish off a character that I've been working on that is having a hard time fitting the tech into $450K
Having the gear be stolen actually fits completely into his background too, so this might be a great way to finish off the stats.
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Downside is people coming after your hoop for the bounty.
Minimum bounty of 25k.
Max of 200K.
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Overdrive can exceed the +4 Limit, I think the Overdrive rules explicitly state that you go past any 'ware limits until it breaks.
The main drawback of Stolen Gear is that you're playing with a group of Criminal Mercenaries who kidnap and murder for Money. This character is basically a 100k Nuyen Pinata for them. Hope the rest of the team really, really likes you : )
Resonance Streams count towards your starting Positive Quality limit of 25. GM will have to handwaive or you'll need to pick it up post chargen.
I don't see what this character does other than Kick stuff with a Cyberleg? You don't have Computer or Electronic Warfare so you can't really hack stuff. No Compiling or Registering, which are kinda huge for a Technomancer. And I don't see Social or Legwork (Ha!) skills other than Etiquette?
You're going to have to really like kicking stuff for a very long time. :P
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+4 is the maximum boost rule and as far as i know that's was errata'ed as a meta limit to keep stuff from getting too crazy.
Yeah the skill list is still a work in progress, I don't intended for it to be super boss hacking, just competent. .
I also looked at a shooter variant which included some other ware. But legs were easier to deal with and had the greatest capacity to essence ratio that would still lead down the path of effectiveness.
But as i proceeded in development there were to many questions concerning overdrive, I didn't want go further until i had a better idea what was would work. Part of my concern, is the cyberadept bonus includes +2 to power that effect cyberware, does that mean anything that can target a device? Or specifically cyberware?
As to qualities, the logic would camp the karma points and drop them in session one depending on how a GM felt about that idea. 20 quality points in a builds that massively quality dependent is an issue. But I certainly agree that's not really what is intended.
I certainly agree stolen gear is dangerous, it just opened up some doors in this case, so I gave it a go
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Thanks for the info on Stolen Gear.
It kind of works for the character I'm working on which is he escaped from a corp research facility & they want him back.
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Part of my concern, is the cyberadept bonus includes +2 to power that effect cyberware, does that mean anything that can target a device? Or specifically cyberware?
I think it means if you use puppeteer on a drone its normal fading level. If you use it on a wirelessly enabled cyberarm then its with -2.
In the fluff section Clockwork mentions a cyberadept capable of seeing people walking around on the moon, thanks to overdriving his cybereyes. This leads me to believe that its possible to overdrive capacity items in cyberlimbs, eyes and ears etc. (Even though it was just a fluff blurb).
I would play it like this: use overdrive on either the cyberlimb itself (buffing its agi + strenght) , or to any 1 device taking up capacity inside.
Btw. Yeah you are correct. Overdrive would still be Limited by the +4 attribute max. But certain stuff breaks that for instance combining reaction enhancers and wired reflexes wirelessly, or cyberlimbs.
You dont have focused concentration which would mean you would take a -2 penalty sustaining overdrive.
+ your sleaze attribute is already pretty good, you would have to thread infusion of sleaze at pl 6 on yourself.
Remember the free skillpoints from technomancers. You could go skills E, and technomancer A ( you go from 28/2 to 18 + 5×3 technoskillz) but also gain a bunch og complex forms).
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Btw. Yeah you are correct. Overdrive would still be Limited by the +4 attribute max. But certain stuff breaks that for instance combining reaction enhancers and wired reflexes wirelessly, or cyberlimbs.
I am aware of this what's in bold and that further that overdrive break normal caps. But you put those two facts together and things start getting dangerous. So for the sake of people not abusing this concept to Nth degree, I'm assuming and pushing that +4 is max. After all +4 is solid bonus and we really don't want to this style of build running amok with Agi and Str in high teens.
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Nothing can break the +4 limit on attributes. Even if Wired Reflexes and Reaction enhancers stack the bar is set at +4. No combination of drugs, implants, and magic can break this hard cap, just like the +5d6 on initiative is unbreakable.
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IMO there are easier and far more abusive things than a Technomancer with a temporary 11 or 12 Agility Cyberlimb. YMMV.
If you want Overdrive to be used by TMs on other PCs you've got to let it work as written and just keep on boosting past the 'wares limits. Because the 'ware can break after you do this. Why would you let your Cyberlimb/Wired Reflexes/Movebywire/whatever break for a temporary +1 or +2?
Overdive has limited availability, Technomancers with one of two Streams that have either gotten a Greater Form Sprite or invested in an Additional Complex Form. And limited Application (for Augmentations anyway), Move By Wire, Wired Reflexes, Cyberlimbs, Reaction Enhancers, Cybersenses, Datajack plus I suppose....? Not a lot else off the top of my head.
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Nothing can break the +4 limit on attributes. Even if Wired Reflexes and Reaction enhancers stack the bar is set at +4.
True in almost all cases. CRB og 455 under the description of reaction enhancers and wired reflexes it is stated that these 2 dont stack when not wirelessly connected. Yet with wireless on they may break the limit of +4.
If you want Overdrive to be used by TMs on other PCs you've got to let it work as written and just keep on boosting past the 'wares limits.
Overdrive can only be used on cyberware currently installed in the cyberadept.
While the cyberware may be boosted to any limit, nothing states that it may break the +4 attribute or 5d6 initiative cap.
So you could still buff your antennas to rating 6, or your dermal armour even. But not muscle replacements above +4.
You could buff the #%$@ out of MBW though.
Say a MBW buffed to rating 6 would grant you +4 reaction( because of the hardcap) + 18 initiative and +1d6 initiative. And functioning as a rating 12 skillwire system. (Good luck finding those non-existant activesofts at rating 12 :) ).
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At +4 this build would be 14, an elf would be 15.
1 skill and a spec and you hit 18 dice. With skill wire 20 is in easy reach. This can will get a little more complex when you keep in mind a cyberskull is a limb.
The mechanic that prevents this, is mitigatable on limbs. This example with golden screw drive and a recent skill will fix legs with little issue. Sure it won't work as well on other pieces. But there's a lot thing you can put into 20 capacity.
Now sure you can't do this over the top with init ware. But it something to be aware off.
Based upon the power to me you can effect capacity. Cyber eyes seeing stuff on the moon could happen if you jacked Vision magnification, that's a capacity feature not the eyes rating. Boosting limb attributes would be jacking up limb enhancement mods. Now that based on fluff so not a totally clear source.
I'm saying we don't want to open the door to cyber adapts with all physical skills running at low 20s because of one power. That will have GMs screaming at every table come gencon
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Drone Rigger using Swarm with Machine Sprite back up can get to 29 Dice, with a 15ish limit on any skill with an Autosoft. A TM with an RCC can pull that off straight out of Char Gen if they wanted to. Be real skinny on skills/stats but High Resonance, Compiling skill, and Resources B are all they really need.
Sustain builds can stack some stupid high numbers up as well, especially if they're tossing the sustains on other PCs and adding in Leadership buffs. +4 Stat, Analyze Device, Leadership to double skill ranks....
Overdrive is a decent buff, but it's not going to break anything that wasn't already supremely breakable. TMs with Machine Sprites have always been able to do this with anything they have Skill ranks in without breaking gear.
Clearly YMMV. ; )
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That's true but I work hard at pretending the swarm rules don't exist.
Do we need to break things more?
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Just to add onto this, but there's a few funnier overdrive augments you can use.
-Muscle replacement.
-Active hardwires.
-Wired reflexes or move by wire.
This way you can easily be that skills E/Techno A/Human C version if you wanted. 7 edge, and 3 resonance is really all you want with Delphi Paragon/Optional sprite powers raising limits.
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I appricate the thought Myriad, but as it happen internal ware isn't a huge issue, sure you can overdrive it, but as it requires surgery to repair, so the usefulness is strictly limited.
Limbs are accessible and repairable.
The question is what caps are cyber adapts allowed to break. As Hobbes rightfully points out, achieving monster pulls is already in the system, so why not allow however many success you can get on the over drive roll?
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I made a build (never played it) with wired reflexes 1
And a cyberarm. The arm had a hard nanohive rat 2 (24k) with rating 2 implant medic (20% of wired reflexes =7.4 k).
So wired reflexes could repair itself with 6 dice when wireless on, and more dice with a machine sprite.
I tried to do the MBW build, but with essence cost, skilljacks etc. I never made it work.
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Drone Rigger using Swarm with Machine Sprite back up can get to 29 Dice, with a 15ish limit on any skill with an Autosoft. A TM with an RCC can pull that off straight out of Char Gen if they wanted to. Be real skinny on skills/stats but High Resonance, Compiling skill, and Resources B are all they really need.
Counterpoint: one well-placed hi-ex grenade. Which is why I'm only interested in using Swarm for crafting and modification purposes: no matter dice you give drones, they're still just fragile little drones.
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*shrug* counter-counter point. Absolutely zero RAW on how dispersed your SWARM has to be. Total GM fiat. Also no RAW on types of Drones needed to SWARM. You could have Kanmushi's in the vents, Flyspy's zipping around, and a Rotodrone with a Sniper Rifle parked outside that doesn't care about walls. All up to the GM to adjudicate how that works.
Counter-Counter point #2, grenades are obviously a combat response. Your Swarm should have been rocking 29ish dice Sneaking and should have been undetected until they opened up and turned most of the field into a hellscape of flashbangs, Thermographic Smoke, and suppression fire.
Counter-Counter point #3, don't forget Social skills can all be defaulted to! Take your Realistic Features 4 Anthro Drone, stick it in some Mortimer's, slap on a little Black Panther, you're rocking 20+ Dice for that Negotiation test. Matrix skills, also possible to default to several of them, which is a path to darkness I've never bothered to figure out. But theoretically possible to build a gang of Agents and Drone Swarms doing all kinds of stupid.
Drone Swarms and Sustain mage builds can totally disrupt a table and steal from another player's spotlight by completely blowing the other PCs dice pools out of the water. Overdrive isn't going to do that. TM w/MBW and Machine Sprites can certainly do some clever stuff, but can still be outdone by specialists and have some significant compromises to deal with. The TM w/MBW build has been around for a long time, Overdrive at best adds a couple dice to those shenanigans.
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*shrug* counter-counter point. Absolutely zero RAW on how dispersed your SWARM has to be. Total GM fiat.
So either the GM says the drones have to be fairly close together and you can take them all out with one grenade, or he lets them be more dispersed so he can abuse the Swarm rules to his own advantages.
Also no RAW on types of Drones needed to SWARM. You could have Kanmushi's in the vents, Flyspy's zipping around, and a Rotodrone with a Sniper Rifle parked outside that doesn't care about walls. All up to the GM to adjudicate how that works.
While that is true, the fact that your RCC can only run so many autosofts (which are model-specific) heavily incentivizes a uniform swarm.
Counter-Counter point #2, grenades are obviously a combat response. Your Swarm should have been rocking 29ish dice Sneaking and should have been undetected until they opened up and turned most of the field into a hellscape of flashbangs, Thermographic Smoke, and suppression fire.
And then the GM pulls the exact same trick on you, unless he's feeling particularly mean. In that case, he'll pull the same trick on you except his drones are steel lynxes with vision and audio enhancements, R4 ruthenium polymer coating, R6 thermal damping and R6 signature masking....at which point anyone who's been through the supersoaker wars will get an ominous feeling of deja vu. As broken as Swarms might be, it's a zero-sum game for most purposes.
Counter-Counter point #3, don't forget Social skills can all be defaulted to! Take your Realistic Features 4 Anthro Drone, stick it in some Mortimer's, slap on a little Black Panther, you're rocking 20+ Dice for that Negotiation test.
How is a drone going to make a negotiation test when its linguistic abilities are limited to verbal commands, as stated in Rigger 5.0? Yes, you can buy language autosofts, but those only allow for translation, not actual conversation.
Matrix skills, also possible to default to several of them, which is a path to darkness I've never bothered to figure out. But theoretically possible to build a gang of Agents and Drone Swarms doing all kinds of stupid.
Pilots can't perceive the Matrix the way someone (or something) with a persona can, which I imagine terribly limits their ability to use matrix skills.
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My point is TMs have far more abusable things they could spend Monies on. Overdive is a Sustain penalty to everything else they do, and Matrix Damage to deal with on a regular basis. Level 6 with 6 Hits gets you a +3, -1 for the Sustain because Psyche, net of +2. Oh, and Fade, but we're talking optimized TMs here so probably not an issue.
That is a very expensive +2 Dice. Ain't gonna break nothin.
Edit: and in actual practice getting 6 hits on a Threading Test with a low Resonance TM is a lot easier said than done.
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My point is TMs have far more abusable things they could spend Monies on. Overdive is a Sustain penalty to everything else they do, and Matrix Damage to deal with on a regular basis. Level 6 with 6 Hits gets you a +3, -1 for the Sustain because Psyche, net of +2. Oh, and Fade, but we're talking optimized TMs here so probably not an issue.
That is a very expensive +2 Dice. Ain't gonna break nothin.
Edit: and in actual practice getting 6 hits on a Threading Test with a low Resonance TM is a lot easier said than done.
I largely agree Hobbes, there are cheaper and more efficient ways to get specific dice pools up, and 6 hits for +3 and matrix damage and drain isn't very efficient at all. But Overdrive is a complex form, so a sprite can sustain it, so that penalty isn't largely an issue. As to fading it is a problem particularly early on. But that sacrifice data chip quality exists, so in the long term fading isn't going to a major issue.
That all said I do think Overdrive on limbs has some meaningful advantages, Capacity is very flexible and will let overdrive effect a fairly large selection of devices, some of those device GMs are not at all going to be used have scaling. Thus Overdrive while inefficient is also going to be pretty flexible. Paired with regaining resonance lost to cyberware, all be it fairly slowly is still going to let you take advantage of karma and tech, which magic can only do much more limited fashion. Also Echos while not stunningly strong don't suck ether, a better Pain editor being a good example.
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Sprite Sustaining is only Level in Combat Turns, tough to get that going on multiple limbs. Especially when you have Diagnostics right there as a better choice for your Sprite. At least for skill checks. Overdrive is for Wired Reflexes or Move By Wire (IMO). Diagnostics doesn't do faster.
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I think the initiative stuff is pure distraction. Getting big initiative dice gets everyone hot and bothered, but it's trap, even if you solve the repair issue in some useful way. MBW and Wired are both giant essence hogs, far to much to allow your to make any kind real use of resonance. Once/If you can get a hold of deltaware wired that it might become doable. But short of that, it's not going to you much good.
Limbs are much better targets, with high potential returns, and considerably lower costs and risks.
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Btw have you made any plans for your capacity in those limbs?
RAW I believe you can overdrive your armour ratings.
Naturally also your agility and strength, but what Else? Sensor array? Radar?
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I gave it some thought, for the sake sanity, stuff clearly needs a rating and some kind of progression based upon that rating. This percludes a certain number of things cyber weapons for example. But that does leave a heck of a lot option. Radar, microwave, various perception, noise causing and noise canceling. Medkits, commlinks, decks, various types of keyes. Armor is tricky by raw I would say yes but I don't that's rai. I'm sure there's bunch more I haven't considered. But that's plenty to be getting along with. And rating 10 or 11 commlinks is good stuff.
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And rating 10 or 11 commlinks is good stuff.
Wait, what? There are commlinks with a rating over 6?
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I appricate the thought Myriad, but as it happen internal ware isn't a huge issue, sure you can overdrive it, but as it requires surgery to repair, so the usefulness is strictly limited.
The redundancy complex form works wonders here :)
Get focused concentration 3, put an overdrive complex form at level 3 on your move-by-wire 1 system and you get +3 reaction, +9 initiative, +1d6 initiative dice and some rating 6 skillwires. When it's time to drop overdrive thread redundancy, then stop both complex forms.
3 hits on software + resonance tests are doable for low resonance technos and you can get a machine sprite's diagnostic bonus on the skillwire uses too. :D
PS: The downside is that you have to start with resonance 2 to get MBW1, skilljack and chipjack
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And rating 10 or 11 commlinks is good stuff.
Wait, what? There are commlinks with a rating over 6?
There are if you happen to put on in your limb and Overdrive it.
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I appricate the thought Myriad, but as it happen internal ware isn't a huge issue, sure you can overdrive it, but as it requires surgery to repair, so the usefulness is strictly limited.
The redundancy complex form works wonders here :)
Yeah, I looked at that one too. Im just not sure what would take damage first. As normally you would check the damage boxes from left to right, and any increase in the condition monitor would be added at the end to the right.
Say your ware has 9 matrix condition boxes, gains 3 extra from redundancy - it now has 12 boxes. Then overdrive is halted and the cyberware suffers 3 damage.
It now has 3 damage and 12 matrix boxes in total (9 of which are unchecked).
Now you drop redundancy- you now have 3 boxes of damage still, and 9 boxes in total ( 6 unchecked).
What you could do though:
1) convince your gaming table that everyone should make a matrix focused character.
2)Make a device modification (data trails) to add a persona firmware to your internal cyberware.
3) convince one of your buddies to make a technoshaman
4) when your cyberware needs to be prepared create your persona on said ware and have the technoshamans great firm companion sprite use its sacrifice power on your (damaged) persona
5) profit
Regarding cyberlimbs and modules. Could you add the "induction receiver" module to your limb and have a toned down version of the skinlink echo?
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Your Priorities are not optimal IMO. I would go Meta E, Skills E, Atts A, Special A and money C. (or money D, Meta D)
You would only lose the 2 group skill points and one ordinary skill point. You would gain a point of Edge and get 140000 to spend instead of 50k. (or gain 3 points of Edge with the same money.)
Your skills does not include Computer or Sneaking.
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Wouldn't Implant Medic Nanites repair the damage? Hard Nanohive in cyber limb...