Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: kainite311 on <03-29-19/1659:16>
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So I was messing around making a cyberadept that was more of a street sam, when I started thinking about using knowsoft's and skilljack for the hacking and stumbled into threading with it. I am sure someone has thought of this before, so tell me if I am missing something here. Yes MBW can dovetail into this for physical stuff, but really right now looking at the CF threading part (even knowsoft's outside of threading really, as it applies to all knowsoft's). So not really looking at starting character as there are a multitude of ways to make it, but rather the end result. And opinions run the gambit on putting daignostics on skillwires/skilljack
So take skilljack rating 6, then buy software rating 6 knowsoft. Put a good machine sprite into the skilljack. Get super lucky and get +6 dice/+1 limit from diagnostics. Now you are rolling 6 skill + 6 Diagnostics + 6 Resonance(say you submerged to get the Res back) = 18 dice for threading. Is that right? Rinse/repeat with 2 or more Electronic and Cracking skills(depending on level), so you shore up your hacking skills even more with chipjack from CF tossed in (24 levels or 36 if wireless enabled..). Lets say 3 logic and 3 Int for sake of ease and not a lot of effort to get average stat and your slinging 15 dice on your regular hacking skills... plus it seems on the surface to have enough left over to be a fairly decent street sam... So what glaring thing am I missing here? Even without submergence, at resonance 4, it is still 16 dice (usually more then dedicated techno hackers in my experience, especially out of creation)...
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Unfortunately, Software, Electronics, and Cracking skills are all Active Skills. You would need Skillwires to even give this a try. That puts cyberware alone at 240K. Then 30K for each Activesoft.
If that isn't enough of a deterrent, you can't use Edge on a skilljacked skill.
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Unless I am misunderstanding here - Activesofts are purely physical skills / Knowsofts replace knowledge skills. Which now that I re-read as many of the rules and places I can find, then maybe you can't even do a software skill chip... Maybe it's just wonky wording then, since the second part says "basically every active skill...", but leads to some more strangeness about the muscle memory needed... there is no muscle memory in the matrix...
Activesofts: Activesofts replace physical active
skills, basically every Active skill that isn’t based on Magic
or Resonance. A skillwire system (p. 455) is needed to
translate the ‘softs into usable muscle memory. There’s
a limit to the number of skills you can use at once, based
on your skillwire’s rating.
Knowsofts: Knowsofts replicate Knowledge skills,
actively overwriting the user’s knowledge with their own
data. Knowsofts must be accessed with a skilljack, and
the number you can use at once is limited by the skilljack
Barring the above weirdness, the idea wasn't to be best hacker, but good if needed - primary role still street sam (jsut augmenting your natural ability through some things you would probably pick up as street sam anyways). And in the end, even if you only have a few chips, you can still petnomancer pretty good. The real strangeness to me is the synergy between software/wires/diagnostics that allows you to thread quite well, which can allow you to bypass alot of the usual hacker skills (and CF don't rely on A/S/D/F stats...) Plus you can cheat a little and get lower level wires (or MVB) for affordability and overdrive them with some focused concentration to get rid of the -2 penalty. And resources a,b, or c if you go used and upgrade later for out of the box functionality. The real downside is not much growth beyond the skill chip, but side growth/utility is what happens... resource cost wise - it seems doable for very little loss to the street sam side... It seems to be a build you "grow" into after a few runs, being mediocre at creation, but then powercurve up
The no edge was expected, but rolling that much extra dice is good incentive to not need the edge
Anyways, what you pointed out are some of things I was looking for to make sure I was understanding it. Skillwires and skilljacks I have not seen used in the game I play in. And the way I had it priced out as skilljack and knowsofts in my head was significantly cheaper...
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All of the Electronics & Cracking groups are considered Active skills.
So activesofts are what would cover it.
Hacking or Software still require you to type so they are "active".
Knowsofts are for the background knowledge skills like Languages or Street Knowledge, etc etc.
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All of the Electronics & Cracking groups are considered Active skills.
So activesofts are what would cover it.
Hacking or Software still require you to type so they are "active".
Knowsofts are for the background knowledge skills like Languages or Street Knowledge, etc etc.
I will just chalk t up to poor wording on the activesofts description. As when you VR, there is no typing, there is no muscle movement/usage. You physical body is slumped unconscious for all temps and purposes... :)
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Activesofts: Activesofts replace physical active
skills, basically every Active skill that isn’t based on Magic
or Resonance
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Activesofts: Activesofts replace physical active
skills, basically every Active skill that isn’t based on Magic
or Resonance
But the second half of the very same paragraph (that you clipped off) I quoted earlier, states that you need the skillwires for the muscle memory. Implying that if you don't need muscle memory, you don't need skillwires with RAW. One could argue that at least I think (not that I am). But there are some active skills that seem silly to require skillwires for, when all you really need is the 'knowledge', not the physical movement. I mean typing' is pretty weak case in point. As are most of the electronics and hacking skill groups. What about skills that are done over a comlink (audible only)? Perception? I think a case could be made some things RAW. Even if by RAW that was accepted, the cost of the activesofts is high, so that would still constrain having very many at level 6 (unless you went Resource A I guess). Not saying it could be a strong argument, but it might be somewhat valid/reasonable, and probably not RAI.
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While there's little fundamental difference between a purely mental active skill such as Hacking and a Knowledge skill such as Matrix Security, in a game mechanics sense there's a world of abstract difference. What you're allowed to accomplish by using them, how much karma they cost, and yes even whether or not an activesoft or knowsoft is required.
All that said, remember that every active skill is also effectively a matching knowledge skill at the same time (PG 130 SR5). So you CAN buy a knowsoft for say Hacking, you just are restricted to using it as a knowledge skill.
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I will just chalk t up to poor wording on the activesofts description. As when you VR, there is no typing, there is no muscle movement/usage. You physical body is slumped unconscious for all temps and purposes... :)
Are you sure about that?
I'm no Decker expert at all, but, there is a story in CRB IIRC, that has Netcat eating while in VR searching the matrix and exterminating copies of bad fanfic porn with Slamm-O.
She can't see them, but has the bowl situated where her hand knows to go in her lap.
Also, in SR-1 CRB Dodger jacked in at a glorified ATM terminal & was standing upright while jacked in & decking. Not slumped over unconscious in the street.
Their eyes glaze over but to my knowledge they are still "functional", they are not astral mages that are no longer in their bodies.
VR today or even using that Ready Player One movie has you cover your eyes & immerse yourself in what you see but your still up & functional.
I'm not sure if Today or RP1 would be closer to AR or not but I don't think so since in AR the Decker is still very aware of his surroundings visually.
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I will just chalk t up to poor wording on the activesofts description. As when you VR, there is no typing, there is no muscle movement/usage. You physical body is slumped unconscious for all temps and purposes... :)
Are you sure about that?
I'm no Decker expert at all, but, there is a story in CRB IIRC, that has Netcat eating while in VR searching the matrix and exterminating copies of bad fanfic porn with Slamm-O.
She can't see them, but has the bowl situated where her hand knows to go in her lap.
Also, in SR-1 CRB Dodger jacked in at a glorified ATM terminal & was standing upright while jacked in & decking. Not slumped over unconscious in the street.
Their eyes glaze over but to my knowledge they are still "functional", they are not astral mages that are no longer in their bodies.
VR today or even using that Ready Player One movie has you cover your eyes & immerse yourself in what you see but your still up & functional.
I'm not sure if Today or RP1 would be closer to AR or not but I don't think so since in AR the Decker is still very aware of his surroundings visually.
Well we can't trust the fluff stories, as even actual examples of the rules are wrong. But anyways here you go from a quick glance in book, I can probably find more if I look harder:
p.229 - Under user modes and cold-sim.
In virtual reality, or VR mode, your body goes limp and your only sensory input comes from the Matrix.
Your body relaxes and your meat senses are blocked, as though your body were asleep.
Going limp, is pretty much no more muscle movement. Meat senses blocked, makes seeing, perceiving the real world pretty much impossible. No sight, hearing, touch, spatial awareness is pretty much gone, as is muscle control if your limp/asleep.
Taking it farther, if movement was for some reason possible, look at EARRS, and the echo skinwalker... They take a lot of investment and penalties just to have perception (seeing) let alone trying to move...
Also SR-1? Has what to do with SR-5 besides name and background? At least not when it comes to rules. And movies have no bearing (I would say they are closer to AR examples with haptic(physical, not mental) feedback. Not being snarky, just sayin...
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While there's little fundamental difference between a purely mental active skill such as Hacking and a Knowledge skill such as Matrix Security, in a game mechanics sense there's a world of abstract difference. What you're allowed to accomplish by using them, how much karma they cost, and yes even whether or not an activesoft or knowsoft is required.
All that said, remember that every active skill is also effectively a matching knowledge skill at the same time (PG 130 SR5). So you CAN buy a knowsoft for say Hacking, you just are restricted to using it as a knowledge skill.
Oh I pretty much agreed that RAW activesoft with previous statements after OP. What I was implaying that RAW you don't neccessarily need skillwires, just skilljack if you extrapolate the second sentence of the very same paragraph that was quoted. From a RAI point of of I am also inclined you need skillwires, but was merely pointing out some quirks that come through needing purely physical (muscle memory) movement upgrades in a purely non physical environment (VR, where muscle memory and physical movements have no bearing). Much akin to the whole rigger agi or log gunnery debacle in VR mode (not jumped in).
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Activesofts: Activesofts replace physical active
skills, basically every Active skill that isn’t based on Magic
or Resonance
But the second half of the very same paragraph (that you clipped off) I quoted earlier, states that you need the skillwires for the muscle memory. Implying that if you don't need muscle memory, you don't need skillwires with RAW. One could argue that at least I think (not that I am). But there are some active skills that seem silly to require skillwires for, when all you really need is the 'knowledge', not the physical movement. I mean typing' is pretty weak case in point. As are most of the electronics and hacking skill groups. What about skills that are done over a comlink (audible only)? Perception? I think a case could be made some things RAW. Even if by RAW that was accepted, the cost of the activesofts is high, so that would still constrain having very many at level 6 (unless you went Resource A I guess). Not saying it could be a strong argument, but it might be somewhat valid/reasonable, and probably not RAI.
The interesting part is that "Physical Active Skills" are actually a type of skills. So I agree that it's easy to argue (and actually something I'd probably do as a GM) that only "Combat Skills" and "Physical Active Skills" (described as things asides combat skills that you do with your body) are covered by Skillwires. Which excludes Technical Skills.
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Unfortunately, Software, Electronics, and Cracking skills are all Active Skills. You would need Skillwires to even give this a try. That puts cyberware alone at 240K.
I believe the errata puts it "down" to 180k as skilljacks are 10k *rating now.
Availability would still be an issue though.
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Look depending your GM interpretation of Cyber adept power you don't need a very high rate skillwire at all. Next skillwires isn't the way to do this at all. As they are internal cyberware and so are to easily broken by the power. What the character need is limbs.
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Honestly asking how limbs improve on the "make threading better while still being a street sam" overall other then better street sam, but without the wires the threading side falls apart defeating the core idea thought exercise...
On a side note, you could also use active wires to reduce cost to 24k... As for the matrix damage, depends on how you rule to fix it. RAW appear that a simple repair matrix damage roll does it. Arguments appear that cybertech skill or medic. Either way that's easily solved by implant medic nanites I believe (unless I misunderstand how they work).
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Honestly asking how limbs improve on the "make threading better while still being a street sam" overall other then better street sam, but without the wires the threading side falls apart defeating the core idea thought exercise...
If your improving threading to achieve some goal then, consider that Limbs are varied and have a thing called Capacity, which are part of the limb. Think on it.
On a side note, you could also use active wires to reduce cost to 24k... As for the matrix damage, depends on how you rule to fix it. RAW appear that a simple repair matrix damage roll does it. Arguments appear that cybertech skill or medic. Either way that's easily solved by implant medic nanites I believe (unless I misunderstand how they work).
I suggest consulting Data Trails. GM opinions will vary undoubtedly, but that's the last update on the subject.
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Honestly asking how limbs improve on the "make threading better while still being a street sam" overall other then better street sam, but without the wires the threading side falls apart defeating the core idea thought exercise...
If your improving threading to achieve some goal then, consider that Limbs are varied and have a thing called Capacity, which are part of the limb. Think on it.
On a side note, you could also use active wires to reduce cost to 24k... As for the matrix damage, depends on how you rule to fix it. RAW appear that a simple repair matrix damage roll does it. Arguments appear that cybertech skill or medic. Either way that's easily solved by implant medic nanites I believe (unless I misunderstand how they work).
I suggest consulting Data Trails. GM opinions will vary undoubtedly, but that's the last update on the subject.
Again, it's about getting the software skill up to be able to thread effectively... so swaping wires for limbs, again makes no sense as it fails to do what is being set out, boost threading to be viable technohacker (possibly better then normal due to higher threading skill then regular techno...)
So thinking on how ANY mod (the whole capacity thing) put into a limb can help up your software skill and stack with diagnostics, as thats the only skill that can improve overall threading dice (and you sure can't slap resonance on with anything but, well resonance itself), and coming up with ziltch. So guess we are trying to be mysterious?... and obtuse? In providing zero example, other then "think on it". Not much contribution to the overall conversation at hand without example, citation, something more then "limbs" without any context, especially after being honestly asked...
I listed RAW(which is the same in DT and CRB), and I listed some people's opinions on matrix damage and repairing when it comes to internal cyberware... again you added no actual new info on it. Honestly not sure what your end goal is in this with no concrete example other then "CYBERLIMBS!" and no example how it makes THREADING better. But thank you for the input I guess?
If your not going to provide any information, even when asked for ANY clarifying examples, what's the point other then trolling? Honestly. I have seen many of your replies, and they tend to be helpful, so I am not understanding this vagueness, overlaid with a tad bit of what appears to be, condescendance, with the paraphrased "well duh, think on it" type of comment after asking for what you meant and how it affects the presented idea.