Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Niutachi on <06-27-19/0417:32>
-
While this is mostly a post of criticism, let me first express that it is in hopes that it will be seen as *constructive* criticism.
Secondly, let me express that I am most pleased with the aims of 6th Edition - to streamline the game, and make it more accessible, while making the core rulebook smaller.
Anyone I've ever approached about playing Shadowrun (5th Edition) took one look at the size of the rulebook, and their eyes glazed over. I've yet to play an actual game of Shadowrun with any of my friends, because of the size of the rulebook! But, deciphering the 5th Edition rulebook myself, just to try and present the information in a more concise manner, well, it's been a struggle. Not only for myself, but, in presenting a more concise view of the rules to my friends after they have seen the size of the rulebook.
Suffice to say, any attempt to streamline the rules, make the "flow" of the rulebook better, make the rules more concise, and make the rulebook smaller in scope . . .
Is greatly appreciated, and I sincerely thank you for your efforts, I'd love to play Shadowrun 6th Edition with my friends! I love the setting, the possibilities, the basic rules at their core, and the history and lore of the game world.
Where I'd like to talk about criticisms, is, as the thread title infers, is in dealing with the art direction. I will preface to say that I'm a relative newcommer to Shadowrun, after being aware of it for many years, I had yet to delve into it fully until 5th Edition. If anything I say seems noob-ish, it probably is, so, please excuse me. In addition, I'd like to say that I've played the entire Shadowrun PC catalog - SR Returns, Dragonfall, Hong Kong, and the gone-too-son Boston Lockdown. Great games, all of them, with great storylines and gameplay. And, great art direction.
However, from my experience with 5th Edition, and from what I've seen with 6th Edition imagery, I'd like to offer my concern for the art direction of Shadowrun. Certainly, Cyberpunk is a genre that has often proven to be difficult to nail down in terms of artistic representation. There are certainly many ways to do so, and often times, all too soon, such representations can seem dated the more our real world grows closer to bridging the gap between fantasy and reality. Similarly, Shadowrun itself is a unique brand of Cyberpunk with a fantasy twist - there's a lot going on in the game and the game world, which makes it that much more difficult to represent in artwork.
That being said, it almost seems to me that this is exactly what has been represented in Shadowrun atworks, especially in what I have seen in the 6th Edition material. THat is to say, it seems as if there is so much going on there is not really much of a central focus in the artowrk itself. When there is, the central focus is muddied with blurry and often crowded or noisy background images. The world is conveyed perhaps too well - there's too much going on for the eye to take in. In many cases, lines are not clearly defined, nor are colors or shadows. It seems as if to be indicative of concept art, taken from a book chronicling concept art from a movie or television series. It's almost as if the imagery that is being depicted never really solidifies into the archetypical memes or icons that the mind conjures when one contemplates "Shadowrun." All too often, when this does occur, the central theme of the image is bogged down in an overly detailed background - the opposite, from the loud, noisy, soft-defined colors, contours and lines from other images.
With so many iconic ideas, concepts, character archetypes, and scenarios present in Shadowrun and the Shadowrun universe, it seems hardly fitting to call most Shadowrun artwork iconic or archetypical. I'm aware that this could be a biased opinion, given that I'm a relative newcommer to Shadowrun, but also, given the lengthy history of the game itself and the phases it has gone through in terms of art direction. Most cyberpunk artwork is flashy, clean lines, hard angles, and hard shadows. Most cyberpunk artwork is, also, cheesy or dated. In regards to Shadowrun's own brand of cyberpunk, it's a fine line to walk, given the fantasy element - I realize it would be difficult to convey the themes, concepts, archetypes, and icons without ultimately creating cheesy imagery, if done in the typical Cyberpunk style (bright, flashy, clean lines, hard angles, and hard shadows).
The art of Shadowrun has always walked that fine line, so it seems, and from time to time stepped over the line here, or there. But, it has always dared to be more gritty, more grung-y, and more fantasy -oriented (naturally). But, it seems to me, a lot of imagery has been (from book covers to promotional materials to box art to cover art) either muddy and unbalanced, or, not your typical iconic "marketable" material (I say this as a confessed Frazetta fan, you'll be hard-pressed to get more iconic and marketable - and at times, more cheesy - than that!).
That is to say, and I hate to say this about a setting I enjoy as much as Shadowrun, but, I find that the artwork around the PC game line is far superior to the pen-and-paper RPG from which those games are derived.
Am I the only one?
Am I missing something?
Is this what the vast majority of the Shadowrun community has come to appreciate, respect, and expect?
Or, could it be done better? What examples would one give to say, "It would be done better this way" besides the PC game line?
And, again, I do not mean to troll or offend, I am just curious, and also am aware that this could be my own artistic preference / bias.
-
Remember, a lot of the artwork is influenced by the era it was also produced in. The first edition has a cover by Larry Elmore and interior art dominated by Jeff Laubenstein. There's a lot of different styles because they use a lot of different artists, instead of the games which were done by artists hired by Harebrained Studios (and a good portion of the character portraits were renditions of Kickstarter backers). Older games (1993, 1994, 1996, 2007) had different art styles (to get an idea, my avatar is from the '94 game). The '96 game was a Japanese visual-novel, and 2007 was ... well, it was a first-person shooter and I have a copy of a screenshot below.
A great book that shows the wide range of the artists is High Tech and Low Life - The Art of Shadowrun (https://www.amazon.com/High-Tech-Low-Life-Shadowrun/dp/1555603270) (wow, I forgot it was from 1997, but still...)
(https://www.mobygames.com/images/promo/original/1478612628-766161780.jpg)
TLDR: It comes down to personal taste. There's only been a few artists I haven't liked in all the years, but that's a small minority. YMMV.
-
Remember, a lot of the artwork is influenced by the era it was also produced in. The first edition has a cover by Larry Elmore and interior art dominated by Jeff Laubenstein. There's a lot of different styles because they use a lot of different artists, instead of the games which were done by artists hired by Harebrained Studios (and a good portion of the character portraits were renditions of Kickstarter backers). Older games (1993, 1994, 1996, 2007) had different art styles (to get an idea, my avatar is from the '94 game). The '96 game was a Japanese visual-novel, and 2007 was ... well, it was a first-person shooter and I have a copy of a screenshot below.
A great book that shows the wide range of the artists is High Tech and Low Life - The Art of Shadowrun (https://www.amazon.com/High-Tech-Low-Life-Shadowrun/dp/1555603270) (wow, I forgot it was from 1997, but still...)
TLDR: It comes down to personal taste. There's only been a few artists I haven't liked in all the years, but that's a small minority. YMMV.
I'm very fond of Elmore's various works, as well as most of his contemporaries from that time (Clyde Caldwell, etc.); one of my favorite pieces from him would have to be the cover of one of the original rulebooks I'm guessing (2nd? 3rd? The one with the elf decker plugging into a computer in an alley, while woman mage and man with guns fire at some suits?). For some reason I could never get into Jeff Laubenstein's work though; I don't hate it, per se, but I don't particularly care for it either. Art is extremely subjective.
-
Lots of Shadowrun artists over the years. Some favorites stand out: Echo Chernik, John Zeleznik, Karl Waller, Dan Smith, Janet Aulisio, Tim Bradstreet, Jeff Laubenstein. Some I could really do without: Mark Poole, Larry MacDougall, Peter Bergting, Tom Baxa. Most fall somewhere in between. Lots of love for Larry Elmore, but he only ever did that first cover.
-
Who was the artist back in 1e who insisted on slipping the Queensryche logo into every piece? I like his/her work :D
-
Who was the artist back in 1e who insisted on slipping the Queensryche logo into every piece? I like his/her work :D
Crap, I remember seeing it, but I can't find it now...
-
So many good Shadowrun artists over the years. I'm personally a fan of anyone who can do good detailed cybernetics as well as those who manage to capture the feel of casual magic in the world.
-
I like most of the Shadowrun art, although I'm someone else who never really got into Laubenstein (although I can see that he is good, so it's a personal thing). I've not seen enough of Sixth World to have any concerns about the art direction, and I really like Echo Chernik's work (Sixth World Tarot, cover of No Future, etc.), so the fact that she is working on the new edition is a plus.
Coincidentally, she is currently raising capital to buy a studio, so she has a sale on in her online store: use the code THANKYOU to get 15% off everything (except limited editions, I believe) on her website. I'm not sure exactly when the sale finishes, but it will be before the end of July. (It has only just started.)
https://www.echochernik.com/collections/shadowrun (https://www.echochernik.com/collections/shadowrun)
-
I disagree with the OP. Which is fine, it's an opinion.
I love the 6th edition art style. For me, 6th edition art looks like the world I want to describe to my players.
5th edition had some great art, but I thought the lines were a little too clean in a lot of it. What I hope they avoid like the plague in 6th edition is art like the cover of Run Faster. To me, Run Faster is a terrible choice as cover art. As art goes, it's quite good technically, but in my opinion, the subject matter only appeals to a subset of Shadowrun players, much less a general population. Let me describe it: A demon-horned man with a sword strapped on his back is being knocked off his motorcycle while he's catching the punch of a red-headed, dreadlocked cyber-centaur wielding an electrified chain, in an industrial building where a woman in the background waits to throw a molotov cocktail, all while pigeons are flying by in the background like doves at a wedding. To me this image is too much, and in my opinion too much like a juvenile depiction of the setting.
Compared to the 6th edition cover art: An Troll with 2 big guns, and sword-brandishing elf summoning a fire spirit stand ready to do battle against an unseen enemy amidst a futuristic city-scape.
Both descriptions are certainly fantastical, but to me, one resonates, the other falls flat. In my opinion, i really hope they continue with the 6th ed art style they have going.
-
To me, Run Faster is a terrible choice as cover art. As art goes, it's quite good technically, but in my opinion, the subject matter only appeals to a subset of Shadowrun players, much less a general population. Let me describe it: A demon-horned man with a sword strapped on his back
An oni ork-metavariant, the rules for which are in Run Faster.
is being knocked off his motorcycle while he's catching the punch of a red-headed, dreadlocked cyber-centaur
The rules for centaurs (and cybercentaurs) are also in Run Faster.
wielding an electrified chain, in an industrial building where a woman in the background waits to throw a molotov cocktail, all while pigeons are flying by in the background like doves at a wedding.
OK, not entirely sure why there is a John Woo reference, but that may be due to my ignorance of his oeuvre.
I'm not sure there's much to criticise in the choice of images, given the book that the cover is for. It's like putting a mage on the front of Street Grimoire, or a matrix image on the front of Data Trails. If it still falls flat for you, that's fine; I don't think it's the strongest cover of the 5th Edition line either. But I don't really think it can be faulted conceptually.
-
My guess is they were trying to get across that run faster is filled with items applicable to any group while the cover focusses on the most outlandish and niche parts of the book. No idea if that is accurate. It is for my group but maybe metavairants and non meta human races are big.
-
My guess is they were trying to get across that run faster is filled with items applicable to any group while the cover focusses on the most outlandish and niche parts of the book. No idea if that is accurate. It is for my group but maybe metavairants and non meta human races are big.
Well, centaurs and giants are certainly big.
Ahem.
How would you do a cover for Run Faster that wasn't just generic Shadowrun, while focusing on the things that are useful for every group? Serious question, because I can't think of anything off hand.
(And, serious answer to the implied query, while I imagine that metavariants get played, has anyone seen a metasapient in play in their group?)
-
I kinda think the 20th anniversary edition did an excellent job of bringing a lot of different images/elements into a single cohesive vision (IMHO)
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/shadowrun/images/5/5d/Source_cover_en_Shadowrun_20th_Anniversary.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130112134947&path-prefix=en)
-
I kinda think the 20th anniversary edition did an excellent job of bringing a lot of different images/elements into a single cohesive vision (IMHO)
I agree. I think Shadowrun has generally had very good covers for the core rules, in fact.
-
My guess is they were trying to get across that run faster is filled with items applicable to any group while the cover focusses on the most outlandish and niche parts of the book. No idea if that is accurate. It is for my group but maybe metavairants and non meta human races are big.
Well, centaurs and giants are certainly big.
Ahem.
How would you do a cover for Run Faster that wasn't just generic Shadowrun, while focusing on the things that are useful for every group? Serious question, because I can't think of anything off hand.
(And, serious answer to the implied query, while I imagine that metavariants get played, has anyone seen a metasapient in play in their group?)
Wasn’t my complaint just my interpretation what they were saying. But, I’d of had a couple normal runners on a couch in their apartment watching trid with some exotics in the show like a pixie and giant. Maybe one of the runners on a comlink with a contact if it would fit.
-
..even though it's an old B&W drawing, still one of my favourites
(https://datafortress2020.com/conflictsa/Paste729200730.jpg)
-
Think early editions did help capture a wide range of setting inspiration in its art.
My personal faves that did that in later works Mike Jackson & Raben AAS, was lucky enough to get his art in my mission.
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/ca07fcda-3037-4728-9ef6-9d9bbb70e238/d5omy5k-bbdd31f4-0b30-4ce6-9a12-872293943d26.jpg/v1/fill/w_1600,h_1435,q_75,strp/shadowrun___grenade_by_steampoweredmikej_d5omy5k-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MTQzNSIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2NhMDdmY2RhLTMwMzctNDcyOC05ZWY2LTlkOWJiYjcwZTIzOFwvZDVvbXk1ay1iYmRkMzFmNC0wYjMwLTRjZTYtOWExMi04NzIyOTM5NDNkMjYuanBnIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTE2MDAifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6aW1hZ2Uub3BlcmF0aW9ucyJdfQ.vY3jsxXW7ZCCXPs8XHnIfh7k8pofT3aCUFMsF0dDk44)
(https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0300/06/1391559808751.jpg)
-
Art was always one of the sticking points for me with Shadowrun.
While the core books character write-up have largely Pink Mohawk style art work.
Even starting from 1st most if not all the adventures/Supplements had a design/artwork/missions setup that was vary Black Trench-coat/ covert ops in presentation.
And this got more apparent as the editions rolled on with even the core books taking on that art style.
So I never truly ever looked at Shadowrun as Pink Mohawk
-
Who was the artist back in 1e who insisted on slipping the Queensryche logo into every piece? I like his/her work :D
Probably Joel Biske, though a bunch of them did that. I know Tim Bradstreet did it once or twice, and I think Jim Nelson did it a couple times too. The FASA staff, especially the art team, were big fans of Queensryche, and their music was fairly inspirational to Shadowrun, since it in turn was inspired by and helped inspire cyberpunk in general. I mean, just listen to the entirety of Operation Mindcrime. Or the songs Empire, Revolution Calling, or Another Rainy Night, or.. Yeah. Lot of their music is perfect Shadowrun inspiration.
-
I've always been partial to Billy Idol's Cyberpunk myself. I can't help it, I love that album.
-
The FASA staff, especially the art team, were big fans of Queensryche, and their music was fairly inspirational to Shadowrun, since it in turn was inspired by and helped inspire cyberpunk in general. I mean, just listen to the entirety of Operation Mindcrime. Or the songs Empire, Revolution Calling, or Another Rainy Night, or.. Yeah. Lot of their music is perfect Shadowrun inspiration.
What a great nugget of SR lore...thank you for sharing! I still have a couple of these on my current playlist...never even noticed the links before.
-
Out of curiosity, does anyone know who did the art on that banner at Origins? I want to see if they have a Deviantart account so that I can check out their other work.
-
I think it's the cover of the Sixth World core rulebook, but I haven't seen who the artist is for it yet.
-
Not sure I know which one you mean but Echo has done a lot of the art:
https://www.echochernik.com/collections/shadowrun
-
This one:
https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/wp-content/uploads/shadowrun-long-banner-origins-2019.jpg (https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/wp-content/uploads/shadowrun-long-banner-origins-2019.jpg)
-
Pretty sure the artist who has done the cover for the box set and core rulebook is Benjamin Giletti. He’s got portfolios on both Deviant Art (https://www.deviantart.com/bgk-bengiskhan) and ArtStation (https://www.artstation.com/bengiskhan).
-
Pretty sure the artist who has done the cover for the box set and core rulebook is Benjamin Giletti. He’s got portfolios on both Deviant Art (https://www.deviantart.com/bgk-bengiskhan) and ArtStation (https://www.artstation.com/bengiskhan).
Thank you! ;D
-
This one: https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/wp-content/uploads/shadowrun-long-banner-origins-2019.jpg (https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/wp-content/uploads/shadowrun-long-banner-origins-2019.jpg)
Looks like Victor Moreno to me.
-
This one: https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/wp-content/uploads/shadowrun-long-banner-origins-2019.jpg (https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/wp-content/uploads/shadowrun-long-banner-origins-2019.jpg)
Looks like Victor Moreno to me.
Nope, it was Benjamin Giletti; I found the art in one of the links AJCarrington posted, as well as some other Shadowrun art they have done.
-
Think early editions did help capture a wide range of setting inspiration in its art.
My personal faves that did that in later works Mike Jackson & Raben AAS, was lucky enough to get his art in my mission.
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/ca07fcda-3037-4728-9ef6-9d9bbb70e238/d5omy5k-bbdd31f4-0b30-4ce6-9a12-872293943d26.jpg/v1/fill/w_1600,h_1435,q_75,strp/shadowrun___grenade_by_steampoweredmikej_d5omy5k-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MTQzNSIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2NhMDdmY2RhLTMwMzctNDcyOC05ZWY2LTlkOWJiYjcwZTIzOFwvZDVvbXk1ay1iYmRkMzFmNC0wYjMwLTRjZTYtOWExMi04NzIyOTM5NDNkMjYuanBnIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTE2MDAifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6aW1hZ2Uub3BlcmF0aW9ucyJdfQ.vY3jsxXW7ZCCXPs8XHnIfh7k8pofT3aCUFMsF0dDk44)
(https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0300/06/1391559808751.jpg)
...oh drek yes, particularly the top one.
Still one of my faves by Bradstreet:
(http://i40.tinypic.com/21boyv9.png)