Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Ultra Violet on <02-16-11/0421:58>
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Why is it, that drones in SR are so superior?
If you could rig your own body it would be better! But why?
- You get up to 5 IP and your Initiative up to (Response + INT +8 )
- Response is a Matrix attribute that can be upgraded or bought up to 10, and there are some additional upgrades (i.e. Reality Filter or AI Home Node)
- You get +2 to any test, if you have a Rigger Control and +4 if you running in hot sim VR
- VR lowers the threshold of tests by 1
- You are automatically ambidextrous, no matter how many limbs/arms you have
- You can perform every Combat Skill with Gunnery, from Unarmed to Laser Weapons (only one single skill is needed) or you use your own skill (like suggested in Cyborg rules) but with the "Jumped in" Attribute (i.e. Response)
- Gearhead, 5 BP would grand your drone body +1 to Handling and additionally +2 for difficult maneuvers and stunts
a.s.o.
Yes of course there are drawbacks but not as many as you think...
- doubled Damage if your drone body gets damage your rigger mind gets another hit on there own
- Sensory and there thresholds...
That is only one tiny example, the drone arsenal can be anything from a mirco drone to a tank or from a insect swarm to a paracritter.
Where is the balancing in here?
Don't let me even start at costs to get a super drone vs. costs to get a street samurai up to speed...
Has anybody a good balancing idea for that?
Yours faithfully,
UV
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I don't have good answers to all of it, but some things to keep in mind...
- You get up to 5 IP and your Initiative up to (Response + INT +8 )
One of those IP is eaten by "controlling the vehicle" (drones being a sub-set of vehicles), pg 168 & 169 SR4A.
- VR lowers the threshold of tests by 1
where's that rule coming from? I'm not finding it.
- You can perform every Combat Skill with Gunnery, from Unarmed to Laser Weapons (only one single skill is needed) or you use your own skill (like suggested in Cyborg rules) but with the "Jumped in" Attribute (i.e. Response)
Actually, it's Gunnery + Sensor (SR4A, pg 247), not as easy to cheese out as Response is.
You did leave out one big cheese of drones: no recoil unless GM imposed.
As for countering drones:
{u]Jammers[/u]- A good facility's going to have them, Probably rating 5+ in many cases. These don't just affect your drone's Signal, they also affect its Sensors (Drone Sensors are Signal rating 4, I'm sure there are ways to raise that, but I haven't seen them).
Matrix Security- If you don't slave the drone (stupid call, I know), they can hack in as normal, and delete your account or shut the drone down at their leisure. If you did slave the drone, then when they attempt to access the drone, the drone forwards them to the node your persona is running on (Unwired, pg 55). Now, if you're not a technomancer (and if the spider's a 'mancer, even if you are), they can hack into your home-node. If they're stealthy about it, they can be inside and get your GPS data, send in a HRT team and then crash your commlink. Now you and your drone are hosed. Before you say "hidden node", I've found that that just slows them down, and not by much if they see a drone.
AV Rounds- -6 to your drone's armor makes your day pretty lousy. Smart armor works a maximum of 10 times (unless the drone comes with higher smart armor, the limit is 10, Arsenal, 132-133) before you've lost your 20,000 nuyen investment.
magnets- Really big ones.
For every hack, there is a counter-hack. Are drones balanced? No. Should they be? Not in my opinion, that's the fun of Shadowrun, you can't just go bullet-to-bullet or bullet-to-spell. If you run into a beast (and it might be a sammy with just the right combo of stuff to shut your team down as a drone or mage), you need to get smart, not get bigger guns. Balanced games simply turn into a race to higher modifiers (look at DnD4e), unbalanced games are a race to higher IQs. Why worry that you have such high armor when I can force a confrontation at a social event where armor is not allowed? Or a dark alley where I've had time to rig a vat of acid overhead?
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Hmm...It might be from 3e, but wasn't there a set of powered diving armor? And can you rig yourself if you have skillwires/move by wire system? And what is a drone compared to the hand that wields it? Hah, now I want to play Conan the Rigger.
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There is no way in RAW to rig yourself.
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- doubled Damage if your drone body gets damage your rigger mind gets another hit on there own
Wasn't that 1/2 of the damage in Stun to resist?
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The self-rigging was a image to picture how many things a rigged drone gets, without pimping the drone. A metaphor to show it, nothing more.
If you have a problem with that we can change it to a dog or a crawler drone. The benefits will last.
@Chaemera
I know that you have to use one of the 5 Complex Actions, but you have 4 left without any drug, cyberware or magic boost, and if it is imported you could risk the crash test, and get your fifth action anyway and a sixth if you use Edge for it. I wanted to show that a mundane 1 IP being become a highly boosted Initiative Monster only through the fact it is rigged.
Okay the -1 in VR is not right I had it in my mind from the other discussion (see here (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=2099.msg26973#msg26973)), but there are enough benefits anyway.
The Gunnery is another thing, if you use the usual rule it is like you said (Gunnery + Sensor) or if you prefer the Cyborg anthroform (Skill + Sensor) but since YOU are no drone you have no Sensor rating, so that is a little gap in my example, if we use bio-drones as other way you would use (your Skill -1) + the drones Attribute. How I came up with Response, I looked at the other Agility tasks, like Infiltration, and see there "Response" is used, but you are right.
The AU on p. 159 says: "Use an appropriate Vehicle Skill (+ drone's Handling modifier) when an Agility attribute is required."
Now what should we use for an attack, (Gunnery + Sensor) or (Skill + Sensor; that we don't know) or [(Skill -1) + your (the drones) AGI rating] or (Skill + Vehicle Skill + Handling)?
In all cases the +4 for hot sim VR and Rigger Control is counting, too. And there are more little boni right up that alley...
My point is it is difficult to imagine how that rigging modifiers come into being when your base is a normal/unaugmented being or thing, like your body or a dog or kids toy.
I hope you get my point of view, right?!
Please help me understand why drones have to have be so damn superior. And please give me some additional reasons why the rigger shouldn't rig the Street Sam for the benefit of the Runner Team? Or why they shouldn't use drone clones (like they do in the "Surrogates" Movie)?
@Kot
It is not Damage x2, it is one time damage of this kind and at the same time damage of that kind, two different sorts of damage, but anyway a second possibility to cop it.
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Edge doesn't let you take a 6th IP. Hell, Edge won't even give you the 5th IP you get from the simsense booster/simsense accelerator combo.
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Edge doesn't let you take a 6th IP. Hell, Edge won't even give you the 5th IP you get from the simsense booster/simsense accelerator combo.
I thought the hard SR4A ruling specified: No character can get more than 4 IP.
Is there a rule I've missed somewhere that trumps this?
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@raggedhalo and Charybdis
Could you please give me the passage where it says: NO. Because I can't find it in both of my books (SR4 and SR4A).
Spending Edge
[...]
• You may gain 1 extra Initiative Pass for that Combat Turn only (see Initiative and Edge, p. 145).
Initiative and Edge
[...]
• Edge can be spent to get an extra Initiative Pass action. A character who only acts once a turn could, for example, spend 1 point of Edge to act during a second Initiative Pass as well. The character must declare this at the beginning of the Initiative Pass—it is not possible to buy an action in the middle of a pass. A character may only purchase 1 extra action this way in each Combat Turn.
This thread isn't about my the points I given it is about the rules of drones and rigging vs. the rules of a flesh and blood and chrome or magic character. And the explaining or justifying, why it is like it is and why it's good that way.
Chaemera done a first good step, but I would like to go deeper.
One of the reasons was a discussion with one of my players, he got the idea of a melee combat drone with as many arms he could install, and since the done is not anthroform, he can use Gunnery + Sensor for every weapon he will install or put the drone its hands. No, wrong hand modifier, and if you play with the cyberlimb modifications for mechanic arms, that drone would get +1 to the combat test for each arm or limb it has (see Optimized Cyberlimbs, AU, p. 44-45). Completed with the Arsenal rules (see Two Weapon Melee Combat, p. 163) and you have the perfect security or assassin drone for close combat. Imagine 20 Arms with stun-staffs or vibro-blades or mono-blades or mono-wipes, all heading your way... and a rigger behind it with 5 IP and +24 (or more) extra dices for every weapon arm it has.
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@raggedhalo and Charybdis
Could you please give me the passage where it says: NO. Because I can't find it in both of my books (SR4 and SR4A).
Hmm, Interesting. I had the number wrong. Maximum Number is 5.
Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes on the character’s record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 5, but most character types can only ever achieve 4.
It might be worth investing in that Quickened metamagic for Increased reflexes after all .... Hmmmm ::)
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Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes on the character’s record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 5, but most character types can only ever achieve 4.
Edge isn't one of them, it is another factor that isn't bound by this rule. ;)
But please, let us return to the topic. :-\
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You don't have to pay out death benefits to the family of drones that are all shot up.
...
Oh, wait, you don't have to do that for security guards either any more. Never mind. :P
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UV, I definitely see your point and tend to agree that riggers can produce an enormous impact through their drones. However, you don't address the myriad ways I presented to counter drones via hackers and jamming.
Since these can be used to thoroughly shut the door on the massive bonuses of well-rigged drones, I would have to argue that we have there a large part of our answer.
Shadowrun and other table-tops shouldn't have their character's rated in one-to-one death matches. It should be about whether each character in the group has a role to fill a good chunk of the time.
I'd take that street sam over the rigger with combat drones if the team were headed into, say, a secure facility featuring layered matrix defenses (signal absorbant walls, area and directional jammers) where a number of the guards are carrying EMP grenades or HERF guns. Just like I'd take the drone over a street sam if I were fighting a cabal of blood mages. There's something nice about ignoring damage from electricity (and a faraday cage makes me laugh at their secondary effects, too, even if I temporarily lose comms), not to mention calling for 5+ hits for them to affect the man.
And I'll take a tricked out possession mage against street sams over either the street sam or the drone. It's all about choices, and drones are one of many, with numerous counters previously mentioned and more that I probably don't even know about.
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If you add cyberware to make meat better and the meat limits the ware (i.e. augmented maximum) and the lower meat to metal ratio gets the greater the augmented maximum (see cyberzombies) if you have no meat and all metal then a drone should out strip meat the meat body I mean i would never try to out run a car on foot
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A little additional note to skill tests and Response part:
MECHANICAL ARMS AND LEGS
[...]
If any skill tests with the limb are required, roll Pilot + autosoft +/– Handling (if the drone is operating on its own) or Response + skill +/– Handling (for jumped-in riggers).
@Chaemera
Have you an idea, how I could manage the extremes? What I'm trying to tell is you have the superior drone on play or you forbidding or jamming or destroy it, there is no middle way (only ON or OFF).
The main thing I'm missing here is a sentence like: A "Jumped in" rigger in a drone body follow the basic rules for man-to-man combat. Or something that says, that things like off-hand-use follows the riggers nature, in other words the rigger suffers the same modifier as his meat body would.
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Edge doesn't let you take a 6th IP. Hell, Edge won't even give you the 5th IP you get from the simsense booster/simsense accelerator combo.
I thought the hard SR4A ruling specified: No character can get more than 4 IP.
Is there a rule I've missed somewhere that trumps this?
TMs and hackers can get 5 in the matrix without using edge.
p.147 unwired Advanced Overclocking
Prerequisite: Overclocking
Advanced Overclocking has the same effect as taking
Overclocking twice (counting the prerequisite echo). Together with
the Overclocking echo, the technomancer receives a total bonus of
+2 Response and +2 Initiative Passes while operating in full-sim VR
(with the 2 extra Initiative Passes from hot-sim VR, this grants the
technomancer an IP of 5; this is an exception to the rule that normally
limits IPs to 4).
And p.198 unwired
Simsense Accelerator
This state-of-the-art mod increases the speed at which simsense
signals are transmitted between the commlink and a persona controlled
via hot-sim VR. It increases a VR-using character’s Matrix
Initiative Passes by 1. It does not boost Matrix Initiative in cold-sim
VR or AR. It is compatible with simsense booster cyberware (so a
hacker in hot sim with a simsense accelerator and simsense booster
cyberware has 5 Initiative Passes). Initiative Passes; this is an exception
to the rule that normally limits IPs to 4).
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Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes on the character’s record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 5, but most character types can only ever achieve 4.
Edge isn't one of them, it is another factor that isn't bound by this rule. ;)
But please, let us return to the topic. :-\
How can you cay Edge isn't limited to 5 IP? The general rule for Initiaive Passes is "The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 5". Where is the specific rule that lets Edge ignore that?
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On page 145 of SR4A, under INITIATIVE PASSES:
Most characters may not act in more than 4 Initiative Passes in a Combat Turn (even if they spend Edge).
So Edge won't buy you that 5th pass, it take specialized cyber/powers to get that fast (technomancers can do it with a special ability, off the top of my head).
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On page 145 of SR4A, under INITIATIVE PASSES:
Most characters may not act in more than 4 Initiative Passes in a Combat Turn (even if they spend Edge).
So Edge won't buy you that 5th pass, it take specialized cyber/powers to get that fast (technomancers can do it with a special ability, off the top of my head).
The Overclocking and Advanced Overclocking Echoes, yes - and they can burn another 2+ to split them between meat and VR: 2 to start the trick up at all - Multiprocessing and it's base echo, I think - plus Biowire into Acceleration(mimics Wired Reflexes) to be able to use more passes meat-side.
For those unfamiliar with technomancer rules, that's the equivalent of 6 bits of metamagic. Expensive trick. TM Riggers are better for the first while using high-rating Machine Sprites to run their drones, I'd say.
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This is a little off-topic but how is your player going about making a drone with 20 arms in the first place? The biggest non-anthroform drones have a body of only 4 and with an arm taking up 2 slots there'd only be 2 arms to play with, unless they're going with the crappy arm but that doesn't take advantage of the cyberlimb mods. So are they planning on mounting these mods on a truck and if so how does that work out logistically in a fight (are all the arms in a line on the side? and why not just run the guy over?)?
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Might as well ask why a human can't run as fast as a car.
Machines are better at lots of things.
The rules reflect that.
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Drones have advantages in abilities and inability to complain about lack of soykaf breaks.
Humans have initiative and intuition, as long as you hire the right people at least. (By the same token, buy the wrong drone and it's in the shop waiting for spare parts from Eastern Europe or somewhere.).
Points and counterpoints, checks and balances. It all depends on how the Suit wants to set up his security, and how much he listens to the Security Adviser he's over/underpaying.
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- You get up to 5 IP and your Initiative up to (Response + INT +8 )
I don't know the rules for +8 init, can you inform me where it come from ? I know +1 hotsim and +1 custom interface.
The Complex action to control vehicles is necessary during pursuit phase, not during "static" combat. But you still need to take actions for difficult movements.
I don't think you can rig a meta-human, but check bio-drones mandatory augmentations, very expensive essence cost.
Drones are good, but they are not easy to hide or to use in common circumstances. In real games, drones are not so good. Drones are often specialized for a single task and the rigger need a lot of skills to be efficient with all of them.
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I don't know the rules for +8 init, can you inform me where it come from ? I know +1 hotsim and +1 custom interface.
+6 from Response Enhancers. It'll take you up to like Avail 30, so don't expect to find too many people rocking that.
The Complex action to control vehicles is necessary during pursuit phase, not during "static" combat. But you still need to take actions for difficult movements.
Check out the section of Vehicle Combat on Tactical Combat again. Every time a drone is involved in combat it's considered TC.
First rule listed under the TC entry is: "Drivers must spend at least one Complex Action each turn driving their vehicle, or the vehicle goes out of control at the end of the Combat Turn." You have to remember that the controlling character also gets dodge dice in the form of Response or Command. Without an operate step in there, that wouldn't make any sense.
I don't think you can rig a meta-human, but check bio-drones mandatory augmentations, very expensive essence cost.
Stirrup interface only costs .5 essence more than the Move-by-Wire system whose benefits it provides. Though, if you're rigging yourself full time, then you only need the level 1 version to get your full VR drone-operation bonuses. Remote control your own body with huge dice pools and a starting initiative score in the 20s! ;D (Or, just get a clone body and use that, as AIs tend to do.)
Drones are good, but they are not easy to hide or to use in common circumstances. In real games, drones are not so good. Drones are often specialized for a single task and the rigger need a lot of skills to be efficient with all of them.
If you are outside, ever, a drone can kill you. In a building, during an infiltration, not so much.
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If you are outside, ever, a drone can kill you. In a building, during an infiltration, not so much.
What? Like that VTOL with a Heavy Autocannon mounted can't fly through hallways?
Heck, with the kind of damage that thing does, it'll shoot you through the roof from 2km above you unless you're inside an armored bunker. Only need a microdrone or person with a laser designator inside to point at the target.
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And there's Rail-Mounted Drones designed specifically for inside buildings.
Some even have weapon switch-out modules so that the Spider can mix and match loads and weapons depending on how militant (s)he feels.
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And there's Rail-Mounted Drones designed specifically for inside buildings.
Some even have weapon switch-out modules so that the Spider can mix and match loads and weapons depending on how militant (s)he feels.
I mostly meant for players sneaking drones into a building on the sly, though it would be hilarious to show up at an Ares facility and start dumping drones onto their rail. ;D
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Check out the section of Vehicle Combat on Tactical Combat again. Every time a drone is involved in combat it's considered TC.
Ok, big mistake from me sorry.
Response enhancer is nice, I missed that... The thing I need to act "as fast" in the matrix than in flesh world with my 16 init ^^
Easy 15 hot sim matrix init at creation if you've got 5 intuition it's nice.
For stirrup interface I consider there is only 3.5 essence version, depends on personal consideration. It's clear that it's equal to lvl 2 m-b-w to conform drones rules with standard 3 IP.
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...though it would be hilarious to show up at an Ares facility and start dumping drones onto their rail. ;D
You'd be giving Ares free drones.
Page 118 of Arsenal
The new “R” series is a special security and defense system hardened against wireless intruders due to the fact that the rail drones are controlled via contacts in the rail system.
In one of my games I had a clever hacker/part-time rigger infect a system with a virus by replacing a rail drone with his own with the spoofed unit ID of the original. It was pretty inspired since it let him jump straight to the security node while bypassing the firewall and the rest of the system architecture. Some lucky dice rolls kept the virus package from causing a sort of cascading failure but it did buy the team plenty of time while the spiders ran around doing damage control.
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it seems like trying to rigg for the win would be a power game that is doomed to failure. The world has lots of hackers and with normal effort on there part, Spoofing to gain control of the drone, locating your GPS and sending in a hit team, shutting down nodes that control the drone, and more you are setting your self up to be shut down hard by another hacker or rigger on the opposition. It may seem like an "on or off" situation bu the off is part of the normal world that is shadowrun. So, the natural deterrent to this is that the rigger doesn't want to put all of his eggs in one basket. Any good team knows that you must be able to deal with many things on the run and if I was a fixer or face putting a team together I would choose a more rounded individual rather than rigger elite, when I know that rigger elite may be useless to me half the time. If you treat shadowrun as a world that is living and breathing instead of a set of rules in a book you see that the fixer wouldn't hire them as much and the rigger elite would just not be someone I would wish on my team as it affects my bottom line and the ability of my team to effectively complete the mission. on the other hand maybe he just does legwork and recon for us and doesn't go on the run itself. then it may not be as good for the player as we wouldn't bring him on the run. or we start doing nothing but runs that will not pit us against another hacker. Or we would have to put or hacker on protecting the rigger, but that has the adverse effect of having our hacker babysitting the rigger instead of keeping us of the cameras.
I guess the point is, is that most people running and playing shadowrun seems to be to focused on the combat and not enough on the world and the game of surviving in the distopian future, and the cyberpunk style in general. Most players just see it as D&D with cool gear and if you take out the story then things like this will be overpowered. but when you add it in it comes back in balance. Criminals don't go in guns a blazing and if they do they won't be criminals for long they would be hunted down by other teams gunned down or put in jail.
Red
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Sorry if my last post seemed kind of rantish, I was not trying to offend. I reread it after posting and though I don't wan t to change its meaning I don't want anyone to feel I am trying to be accusatory of the OP or others here on this forum.
The point I wanted to make is that the world and the story corrects these broken combos usually, and it is up to the GM to bring these things into game.
Hers an example of what I'm talking about.
GM (to group at start of session): "You've been out of work for a month now and it seems that though the word on the street says there's jobs to be had you aren't getting any. Go ahead a subtract a months worth of expenditures and deal with the SOTA on your programs and gear."
Player (To GM): "Can I call my fixer to see WTF?"
GM (to Player): "Sure, you call him up and it goes straight to vid mail."
time passes as the game session turns into find the Fixer. they finally locate him after an hour of trying to track him down, its almost as if he is avoiding the team. finally they meet.
Player (face): "So, You gotta job for us? I haven't heard from you in weeks? rent don't pay itself. "
GM (Fixer): "Listen, You guys are good and very effective your rigger is top notch, but it is also why you ain't got a job. He's too easy to shut down and I gotta pay rent too, failed jobs don't pay rent. Now I may have something coming up soon that will be right up your ally. but it's a good news bad news type of situation. Good news its a job that you guys can easily handle, in fact for your team with that rigger its a cakewalk, bad news is it don't pay much because it is a bone I through to new teams to try them out. My loyalty to you though is giving you priority. My advice is dump the rigger for a rigger that's less of a one trick pony and I got jobs lined up around the corner that I can put you on. but in the real world you face hackers and other riggers and they all got your chummer's number, if you know what I mean."
Now I don't like this strong hand approach myself but it is the way I think it would play out. I try to circumvent the situation by talking with the player that is going this route.
GM(to player): "Hey I don't think you want to put all of your ability on just the drone thing. If an enemy hacker, and believe me there are lots of them in the SR world, faces you you could be locked out of playing for a time period trying to get your drones up and running again. By that time the combat could be over. maybe you should try and have some backup skills so you can be with the team and if you get shut out you still won't be out of the game."
If it is already a problem in the game then I would talk to the player as well. Most people are reasonable, given the chance everyone just wants to play and have fun, not dominate the game and cause others to not have fun.
The world balances these riggers, You won't find it in the rules.
Red
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"Attitude" will hopefully help with that.
Microdrones are useful for a lot of uses in recon work obviously, but they can do so much more.
One game had my group trying to hack Lone Star with a Worm to get access to their Medium Security Personnel Files during their back-up process. They learned that it's easier to get around the security if they access through an active node... Like, oh, say, a Cop Car!
So, they got the Hacker in the back seat with a Crawler Microdrone hidden on him and a long spool of cable for his datajack (His CommLink is cybernetically installed.), a Second-Hand Laser Eye cut through the barrier between the back seat and the front, and a crawl away to being inside the system. Done.
Equip one with a laser microphone, and you got a long-range bug that can listen in on anything that vibrates when voices hit it. (Just hope they didn't get ice in their drink.). That's an old trick, dating back to "Into The Shadows", however.
Even conventional uses for them are useful. Why climb around your building with network cable when you can have the Microdrone do it, and do it inside the walls at that. The Security Team will be hitting the wrong apartment, wrong floor, even the wrong building entirely while you're warned about the situation and able to do the bug-out-boogie. After arming Mr. Thermite Firebomb, of course. Mr. Thermite Firebomb is your friend when you have to abandon a squat.
Or even make some cred/contacts on the side using your drones to pull power lines around old buildings to re-wire them for electricity after they've been stripped, it'll make your squat more comfortable, and your neighbors will like you better, always handy. Or do it for other buildings. Or strip abandoned buildings, with yourself running security. A Shadowrunner is often better equipped than any salvager. The usefulness of electrical cable should be easy enough to see for a bunch of folks like us. If not, well, it's also copper, good to sell for some sloppies and a soycaf at the Stuffer Shack.
Basically, anywhere you can't fit a short Dwarf or a skinny Elf, you can get a Microdrone, and that can be quite useful at times. It's not always about combat ability. One advantage to Drones Vs. Flesh.
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Riggers are "easy to shut down" only if they're stupid, caught unprepared, or both.
First off, don't Jump In unless you absolutely have to. Jumping in turns your meat body into a liability. It also makes you dependent on the drones instead of just having them as useful tools. Jumping in is occasionally necessary, but using AR Remote Control the rest of the time is nearly as good and lets you stay active so you don't need a babysitter.
Number one way to avoid wireless hacking of your drones: Don't use radio. There are microwave and laser links for a reason, use them whenever possible. Not only are they impossible to hack unless the hacker actually gets directly in the beam with a tap, they don't broadcast the presence of a node. My rigger specifically has a set of cloaked flyspys with laser and microwave links to serve as relay nodes so my other drones can operate around corners. They also let me run the team's communications so those don't show up as matrix nodes either. Yes, this does mean actually traveling with your team instead of sitting in the van three blocks away. Suck it up, this is what it means to play the big boy games.
Second, if you must use radio based wireless, it's possible to load drones and your control comms with just as much defense as any hacker. If you skimp on matrix defense it's your own damn fault. It's possible to layer defenses on so thick it'd take hours for even a good hacker to penetrate.
Third, you can only directly control one drone at a time. Make sure the rest of the drones are at least decently equipped to handle themselves without your constant input. That means upgrading software and hardware. Again, you get what you pay for.
That's just off the top of my head. There's a lot of other tricks and strategies to keep from getting shut down, you just have to look.
-k
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Drone Legwork! Can't believe I forgot about this one, they even make fun of it in the sourcebook fiction (Picture of Slamm-0! in his undies due to his cleaning drone!).
Want to know about a target? Does (s)he have a routine? How (s)he lives? What (s)he eats? All that good stuff? Household Drones likely aren't loaded up with security software (Pre-Emergence at least.), and will have all that info loaded into them. The CHN (Central Home Node, Runner's Companion, Page 150) will probably be harder to hack, but the Drones themselves not so difficult, and they'd have access through the Firewall of the CHN that won't be secured as well unless the target knows their computer security.
You can tell a lot about a person just by what they eat. And, if you can get into the CHN, well, you can get in the front door (Use the front door. Security knows that back doors are the preferred entrance for criminals and will watch it more.), lace something in the Drip/Perk Soycaf Machine, and just let things take their natural course.
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@KarmaInferno -great name BTW
Yes, you are right proper planning keeps runners alive, but riggers are easy to shut down if they do as the OP meant, that the Rigger is in relative security several blocks away, he was completely forgoing the meat body because it was useless to him, and that it was power game because it could be done with a brand new rigger. or that was my assumption of the OPs intent, you know how assumptions go. :) UV wants to know, Why would you just not forgo the meatbody and just use drones? because in my opinion a rigger like that is to easy to take out by things he would encounter in everyday work.
The rigger you propose would be different but not impossible to take down. The jobs he would be troubled by would be the jobs he would need to go on to keep up his SOTA, not the milk runs he could easily pass by, they won't pay enough.
The unfortunate part is, beam links won't work as neither the sender or receiver can move during transmission (Unwired P.51), these types of links just slow you down. you your relay and the drone you control all have to stop moving to get the command sent. In my games you can use them but due to the stopping of motion you may only use them to remote command and not in AR control or by jumping in. because if they move you lose connection. not only that but you have to send along with the command the drone is getting a time for it to stop and get its next command. If you don't you will have to wait until it stops on its own to get its next command. you could put a wireless node in it to act as a backup but then you are once again prone to being hacked. Yes beam links are harder to intercept but they are just harder not impossible, even hacking a slaved connection is only a +2 modifier. You need the beam transmitter and I give a +2 to try and spoof, but once again you can't hit a moving target so you have to time it to send as the receiver stops to receive its next command. Harder not impossible. Just hold your action and give me a test to time it right. Laser links can be interfered with by fog, rain or large burst of light like a flash pack. Microwaves can be stopped by anything metal getting in between the two devices, like a interior blast door, but then again so can a laser beam. Why you may ask, because microwaves bounce off of metal and they are also absorbed by vegetables and food so it would also be susceptible to signal degradation do to sculpted terrain as well as large cafeterias. :)
The point is nothing is foolproof, that applying the real world to it can't balance.
Your rigger seems very diverse and that is what makes him great. Please don't think that I'm down on your rigger he is a perfect example of the kind of outside the box style thinker that chimera was talking about. Its a IQ creep not a power creep, or at least that is what i think Chimera was talking about. :) He will be able to deal with all of the problems set before him but he will not be able to just walk through a mod unscathed, which makes him balanced.
@CanRay
I think Drone recon is the best use for them.
Red
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I was chatting with a fellow GM at a nearby college, might play couple games with him for the whole 'other side of the fence' feeling.
Anyway, this is how he dealt with a power rigger almost exactly like the one described in the OP.
First, Drones are basically nodes with frames so they have node stats, including subscription requirements for many actions and System and Response limiting the running of too much software
Second, the rig is still a commlink and in order to get the 5IPs described in the OP you have to be running hot sim.
So what do you do with these tidbits? First, hack/spoof the primary drone so the Rigger has to jump in personally or risk his heavy hitter turning on him. You otherwise need to get the rigger to signal the drone or vice-versa. Then the hacker runs a trace to find the access ID and the Rigger's location within 50 meters or so. Alternatively you can simply take a few moments to search for a hidden node.
Once you have the location of the Rigger's rig/commlink you can get to work, even with a good firewall (rating 5-6) and disabled user accounts you can still get Admin (ROOT) fairly easily. Once you're in you just need to remember that cybercombat is best when you go at the target sideways, crash his programs, nuke him, viruses/worms, corrupt agents, attach data bombs his files/programs, encrypt his stuff. It took time for me to educate my players that cybercombat is more than a gunfight on a server.
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Another thing, if you know which drone a Rigger is in, Off-Line it as fast as you can. Dumpshock is a major problem, and the remaining drones will be on old orders, with a possibility of not getting new ones if the Dumpshock is bad enough.
Even if it isn't, if you got a few people with Olfactory Sensors, just follow the smell of vomit. Old Hunter's Trick, always make sure you can track your prey with your own senses, rather than relying on other tactics. Tracks can be old, CommLinks can be spoofed or re-routed. You think you're sending an Anti-Personnel Rocket into the Rigger's location when all you're getting is a Retransmission Unit the group put into place to prevent such a tactic. You see the target, however, well, you know the rocket's going where it's supposed to.
Of course, you should be using said rocket on the Magician. "Geek The Mage First" after all.
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Encryption makes wireless untraceable if you control both sides of the connection.
Initiate Cryptanalysis is an extended test which takes 1CT to accomplish and needs to score Ratingx2 hits where the rating is based on the Encryption program it's trying to break down.. which should be 6.
So, an enemy should be looking at a threshold 12 test that takes 1CT per attempt.
Okay.
Now, Encrypt is a Simple action, which needs a corresponding Decrypt action on the other end.
This encryption process lasts until you say it stops.
However, it can be restarted, with new keys, every single combat turn.
Because, each turn, it's a different cipher to break, this forces an enemy hacker to score 12 hits on a single roll in order to crack the Encryption, which must be dome before one is able to capture your traffic, get your ID and Track you down.
Oh, but wait! If he broke the cipher, that took his entire CT, so he has no passes left to try and capture your signal, and, what's this? A NEW CIPHER! Too late!
The only way to do it would be to score 12 hits in a roll, then spend Edge to go first in the next IP (or just be faster) during which you Run a Signal capture. Now, because you've got their traffic, you should be able to get the encrypt keys each time they're sent, so you only need to use a simple action to decrypt and then a complex action to run the Trace.
Variable encryption is an easy maintenance thing outside of combat. Pilots and Agents can handle it automatically.
In combat, your rigger still has plenty of IPs to act while continuing to actively scrambling all wireless traffic. Or, you know, Agent again. Just use a gateway comm to route all your main comm traffic through, via wired connection.
Likewise,an Agent can do this for non techs, while it also continuously analyzes their link.
Hooray! Variable encryption saves the day!
Really, the only way someone can break your comms is if the GM decides they should for story reasons. So if you don't like how someone is playing, don't try to box them with the rules all passive aggressive like. Instead talk to them. Be a damn grown up.
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How would you sync up the encrypt/decrypt keys over multiple devices without using a table of potential keys? You obviously can't send the key over the encrypted link or else you're at risk of a quick crack.
If you use the table method then every drone you operate has a key to your operation, if their node is breached through a direct hack or even salvage of a damaged drone.
And of course, EMP.
As a GM I feel that if the runners tackle most or all of their runs with a similar style then the Inter-Corp Dossier on them would reflect that. Unless they were prodigiously subtle. In my games the Players like having to vary their tactics but I've never had to deal with a player that works too hard for combat prowess stay in that mindset.
Edit: Since firing just about anything from a drone uses the Gunnery skill how efficient would a drone mounted with a HERF gun be?
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Before I reply I want to preface my post with i do not think you are advocating that Riggers are unstoppable, nor would I squash a rigger due to him being clever or smart. I would however start giving the team tougher jobs that pay better though. Any fixer worth his salt sends his best team on the better jobs. and this rigger is on the ball hopefully his team is as well. that being said I will take this post to show how the tougher job could handle this type of rigger to bring him into balance for the game.
Encryption makes wireless untraceable if you control both sides of the connection.
I don't think that is true. It does make it harder to access but you can still detect the node or the signal you just can't access it without first initiating a cryptanalysis. and once you have decrypted the node you can log on and locate its GPS information to find it. Or if you wish to trace the signal you just need to decrypt the signal before running the trace.
As far as making the rigger unbalanced or unstoppable, both of which you are not claiming but I wish to continue the thread topic, with landscaping for signal attenuation can reduce the signal by 2-5 points and this is not effected by ECCM. This would force the rigger to be very close to his drones or lose signal altogether. Most higher security buildings that runners would need to break into would have not only this but also the possibility of Wireless Negation wallpaper and such inside there building. They would also have hard wired security systems to not degrade there own signals. This forces the Rigger into the area and makes it balanced because he is there in danger withe the rest of the party. He also relies on the hacker to help out and the rest of the team to keep him going if they want the drone backups. But this is balanced and not the uber-rigger power game that makes a rigger a one-man team. If the signal is to hard to hack kill the meatbody or force him to be on sight so he is in as much danger as the next guy.
Initiate Cryptanalysis is an extended test which takes 1CT to accomplish and needs to score Ratingx2 hits where the rating is based on the Encryption program it's trying to break down.. which should be 6.
So, an enemy should be looking at a threshold 12 test that takes 1CT per attempt.
Unless the hacker rushes the job and then it would take half the time. So, in my game, for every two of his initiative passes he would get a roll. Brings it a bit down but still does not make it great for the hacker. All in all it just means that shooting the rigger is the better option, which he is reliant on his team to stop and again brings balance to the rigger.
Okay.
Now, Encrypt is a Simple action, which needs a corresponding Decrypt action on the other end.
This encryption process lasts until you say it stops.
However, it can be restarted, with new keys, every single combat turn.
Because, each turn, it's a different cipher to break, this forces an enemy hacker to score 12 hits on a single roll in order to crack the Encryption, which must be dome before one is able to capture your traffic, get your ID and Track you down.
Oh, but wait! If he broke the cipher, that took his entire CT, so he has no passes left to try and capture your signal, and, what's this? A NEW CIPHER! Too late!
The only way to do it would be to score 12 hits in a roll, then spend Edge to go first in the next IP (or just be faster) during which you Run a Signal capture. Now, because you've got their traffic, you should be able to get the encrypt keys each time they're sent, so you only need to use a simple action to decrypt and then a complex action to run the Trace.
most of this is very true the only thing that isn't is that you would need to run encrypt on your comlink node, the drone node, the signal and decrypt the signal at both ends as well. That's 5 simple actions to maintain the link in full encryption. If you don't encrypt the node the hacker can log on and crash the node. If you don't encrypt the signal then the hacker can spoof the signal and issue false commands to the drone. now since this is Uber-rigger, we will assume that he has slaved the Drones Node to the Comlink as well just in case.
Variable encryption is an easy maintenance thing outside of combat. Pilots and Agents can handle it automatically.
In combat, your rigger still has plenty of IPs to act while continuing to actively scrambling all wireless traffic. Or, you know, Agent again. Just use a gateway comm to route all your main comm traffic through, via wired connection.
Likewise,an Agent can do this for non techs, while it also continuously analyzes their link.
Hooray! Variable encryption saves the day!
I wouldn't call it easy, you have to maintain two agents one on the comm and one on the drone if you are commanding the drone via the command program, you can't use the pilot of the drone as it is suppressed by the command program. If you jump in I think you suppress the pilot as well but I could be wrong. So that is 1 program running on each. you have to have encrypt and decrypt on each so that they are running so that is 3 programs running on each. To have Encrypt of 6 the pilot of the agent has to be 6 and both nodes have to have a 6 system to be able to run a rating 6 pilot, and to not have your system set lower and thereby stopping your ability to run rating 6 programs you have to have a response of 6. now the Rigger has to use Command on his comm or be subscribed to the drones node to be jumped in. either way one of the devices is now at 4 programs running against its program limit, only two left for its response to drop including its system then and to have all of the rating 6 programs to reduce there effectiveness on the node. not a big concern but it is a concern as it drops the target numbers on enemy hacking attempts. Both devices should be running analyse to detect hacking attempts just in case the hacker comes on to the node, it could happen as you see below. That's 5 on one and 4 programs on the other. If the rigger is in AR he can only control the one drone with his command program and everything he does is complex, and he doesn't have as many IPs as he would if he was jumped in. If he is jumped in then his body is out there somewhere and you have a problem of not being close to the drone and possibly losing signal due to landscaping and wireless negation. On top of this the order in your initiative becomes really trick as you have to have your agents go at the same time to keep one from encrypting while the other decrypts or your signal is intermittent. Not that big of a deal as dropping the encryption on one would not drop encryption on the other. All in all this is not as unbalanced as it seems.
Really, the only way someone can break your comms is if the GM decides they should for story reasons. So if you don't like how someone is playing, don't try to box them with the rules all passive aggressive like. Instead talk to them. Be a damn grown up.
The first part not really you can use the rules to bring them into balance or break them if you wish, but you should never break them. It is not passive aggressive to challenge the players withe the world of the game. In fact it is your job to present them a challenge and entertain them, or at least that is my opinion. I fully agree that you should not break them or box them in with no way to play that is a total douche move. I also agree that if you feel that they are a problem player due to there uber-rigger appearance and someone is not having fun you should talk to them instead of hammering them. Good call Kontact.
the reason i am going to lengths to show rules walk around that make since, to me at least, in the world is to show that these riggers are balanced when you apply the world and the rules to them. and there is no reason that a player should not be allowed to play that character. Let your players know that you encourage them to build uber builds and then the jobs will be harder and the payouts will also increase. but the goal is to have fun. If someone is ruining that for someone by not being balanced then talk to the player tell him that you can balance the character in game so he can continue to play but you just wanted to give him a heads up that the rigging will get a bit tougher because of his ingenuity. if he doesn't want that then ask him to tone it down for the sake of the group or play something new and let his old character go off in infamy.
The reason I post how the rules can be used to stop these uber builds is to show was that the GM can increase the challenge, not to be antagonistic towards the players and if I am wrong at some point please let me know as i am still learning as well and would like to have those mistakes pointed out to me. to me this is a friendly debate and I like it, if I seem to aggressive let me know as it is not my intent to be antagonistic. I sometimes am a bit to aggressive. :)
Red
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How would you sync up the encrypt/decrypt keys over multiple devices without using a table of potential keys? You obviously can't send the key over the encrypted link or else you're at risk of a quick crack.
So sending encryption keys over an encrypted channel is risky? Not according to the rules.
Turns out that encrypted communications are a pretty safe way to send stuff.
As to taking 5 actions, I outlined that.
Encryption doesn't take skill. A R1 agent on a spare link can handle this for you.
Encrypt, is a simple action which includes setting and sending the encryption keys. This is done once and applies to all subscribed channels which you decide it does in the same manner that Issuing a Command applies to whatever number of devices can receive that command. It only needs to be done on one side of the connection.
Decrypt is a simple action which includes taking the encryption keys and applying them to the signal. This is done once by each device on the receiving end. It takes up a simple action. If you are directly controlling this drone, it takes one of your actions. The other simple action can be used to run an Analyze test, which is also important to catch hacks early.
The biggest threat to a rigger is brute force hacking. If a solid hacker scans the drone's ID, which is inevitable, then he can Hack on the Fly. And if he's not terrible at it, he can break in before the alarm goes off using a the Mute option on his program, or the "I'm a Technomancer" option on being crazy good at hacking. Still, there are ways around that too. First off, data bomb. Stealth it too. That'll slow him down. Second off, have the pilot/agent analyze to see if the databomb is still running. If not trigger an alert. Make the standard alert response involve spoofing a new ID and reestablishing the connection with you. Now the hacker gets disconnected and has to spoof himself a new ID and then reacquire your drone's ID. And if the hacker is a techno who ended up bumbling into your databomb because he didn't invest enough in his Computer skill (more important than novices think,) then he's probably dead from 6-36 stun.
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Doesn't Encryption require the Electronic Warfare skill?
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Nope. The action only requires the software; no check is necessary, just set a passcode. And if you're letting an agent handle cycling encryption, it would be able to do six nodes/connections in one Combat Turn. (Agents get 3 IPs.)
The rigger in my game has a Rating 4 agent with the programs needed to find, and deal with, hackers: Analyze, Attack, Armor, Medic, Track, and a few others that I can't immediately recall. He lets it wander through his network, looking around for suspicious activity. I basically rule this as a pull-it-out-of-my-hat (heh) random chance that the agent's peeking into a particular device, if there's someone trying to get in.
I'm sure, once they see how well his system's protected, that the rest of the team will start funneling him the money needed to secure their own 'links. (It'd be even better if I had Unwired -- I want the stats on a tacnet, dammit.)
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Then what is EW used for? And why does it have the Encryption Specialization? (SR4A Page 127.).
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Then what is EW used for? And why does it have the Encryption Specialization? (SR4A Page 127.).
Scan + EW = find hidden node
Decrypt + EW = initiate cryptanalysis
Sniffer + EW = capture wireless signal
Signal + EW = jamming on the fly
That's the four EW tests.
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All this doesn't even begin to touch the really cheeseweasel stuff like daisy-chaining multiple commlinks and putting data bombs in every damn thing.
There's an inherent problem with hacking in SR. It is either childishly easy to crack systems or damn near impossible. There's not a whole lot in between. Any script kiddies who can push a button can crack into 90% of the systems out there in a matter of hours or even minutes at most. The remaining 10% are SO well protected even the best crackers have difficulty with them.
And the way defenses are set up in the rules, there's no good reason anyone would NOT have like 30 layers of stupidly hard defenses set up on every node in their systems. But for some reason most places have minimal security.
Back to the rigging yourself idea - why? The benefits are minimal, and the downside is significant - you potentially take damage TWICE every time you're hit, once from the actual damage and once from the hotsim feedback.
-k
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First part of my question answered, now, for the second?
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As to taking 5 actions, I outlined that.
Encryption doesn't take skill. A R1 agent on a spare link can handle this for you.
Encrypt, is a simple action which includes setting and sending the encryption keys. This is done once and applies to all subscribed channels which you decide it does in the same manner that Issuing a Command applies to whatever number of devices can receive that command. It only needs to be done on one side of the connection.
Decrypt is a simple action which includes taking the encryption keys and applying them to the signal. This is done once by each device on the receiving end. It takes up a simple action. If you are directly controlling this drone, it takes one of your actions. The other simple action can be used to run an Analyze test, which is also important to catch hacks early.
I wasn't meaning 1 agent does all 5 actions, sorry I must have miss-posted or something. 1 agent encrypts its node and the transmission and then runs decrypt to be able to understand the transmission being sent and received. The other encrypts its nod and runs decrypt on the transmission to understand it as well, but does not need to run encryption on the transmission just his node. 5 simple actions between the two agents not one. On one of those ends you will have the opportunity to get in to the node as one of the agents is trying to encrypt the signal and run decrypt to understand the response and won't have the node encrypted until his next initiative pass. Finding out which one is doing which is probably a luck of the draw and it will only work if you roll good to get into the node on one roll and then crash either the node or the agent with cyber combat with your next pass before the node is encrypted. I still not the best way to defeat the rigger but that is not the point. The world balances the rigger as his encryption does not defeat what he would normally face on the run. wireless negation and signal attenuation.
To me this is a cool rigger that nows his stuff and is really hard for an enemy hacker to deal with but on the run he is very balanced and can be challenged without it overpowering the rest of the party. I would have no problem letting a rigger with this setup into my game.
Red
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I think Data bombing a node is ambiguous and would require GM interpretation. What is designated as authorized access. Hacking, in my definition, is using exploits to create an account whether it be a standard user account or Administrator one that gives you the ability to log on to a node. If you do this successfully a Data Bomb would not go off as you are accessing an account and are authorized to use that level of access. I would not deny my Players the ability to Hack into a system with a Data Bomb on it and then let them deal with the bomb. If the system detects you though then the bomb goes off. Others may rule it otherwise due to RAW but I would use RAI on this one otherwise every Node that you didn't want someone on would have a Data bomb and the game would not be fun for any hacker. the fact that that is not the case tells me it works more like what I have described here.
Red
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The simple answer to the original question is that rigging is a wireless connection and therefore is as vulnerable as any other wireless node. Once you go wireless you are now in the kingdom of the hacker. As many here have discussed there are many tricks to outwit either side but it boils down to a Matrix battle. As for the idea of game balance, specializing in one area always leaves you open to another. Thats why we discuss shadowrun Teams not single player superheros. The four M's: Magic, Matrix, Muscle, Machine forget one on a run and you're dead.
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As far as the cycling encryption goes. That sounds great for a player trying to protect their drones and whanot, but do you (or your GM) then turn around and run all NPC drones the same way? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and that application of the rules seems to make a good majority of drones near unhackable for a not very large investment.
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For me it would depend on the team if they could handle it then yes I would use it against them, If I feel they could not then never. My job as a GM is to make the game challenging, entertaining, and fun not impossible, frustrating and a death trap.
Red
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If the group expects to be dealing with a spider, this sort of thing is probably on the hacker's mind already. Any drone network that's part of a site's security may have this sort of wandering IC anyway, that's pretty standard for mid- to high-level Matrix security.
Keep in mind how often drone whisperers turn up as enemies (which, from what I've seen, is seldom). I'm going to increase this a little for my own game, 'cause the group's rigger actually has himself kitted out to be able to hijack drones, and he needs the chance to do so once in a while.
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That's a great point LonePaladin, if the groups hacker or rigger seems to want to face this challenge then it would seem legitimate to allow them to do so.
Red
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For me it would depend on the team if they could handle it then yes I would use it against them, If I feel they could not then never. My job as a GM is to make the game challenging, entertaining, and fun not impossible, frustrating and a death trap.
Red
Impossible is one of those words that I find hard to quantify in Shadowrun for my gamers. Many times they would prefer to fail than run away from a challenge. Gamers should get to see the edge of a cliff now and again to show them how big the world is and they are mortal. Also they can be as hard to kill as mutant Roaches and just as likely to try skillwiring cliff diving as run away.
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That's a mindset of gamers everywhere, regardless of the RPG being played; they don't like any circumstances that look like losing.
I'm glad that the SR rules have always addressed this phenomenon -- the "smarts" Karma award specifically mentions that it should be awarded if the runners realize that it's better to cut their losses and run. (If the players run into this sort of situation, and actually back away from it, I'd make this Karma award openly so they know they actually gained something.)