Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <07-23-19/1414:23>
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A new thread to further the spinoff conversation from this thread (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29573.0) about the relative advantages, or lack thereof, of going beyond 5 edge.
Pro: More edge up front is more edge you can spend immediately.
Con: 6 or 7 edge means you can potentially miss out on a point or two of potential edge gain immediately.
Discuss.
EDIT: Mods, maybe move this to the Rules discussion forum? Didn't realize I didn't have it there :P
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The benefit only comes into play in rounds you don’t start by gaining edge. Because if I gained 2 before I use edge we are both at 7. Seems fairly niche.
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OTOH the benefit of 5 edge only comes into play if you're gaining edge in that first action. If PC A has 7 edge and PC B has 5 edge, if PC A goes first the potential for PC B to gain 2 edge and hit the cap is only possible if PC A attempts to engage in PvP/fratricide.
And of course even if PC B is going first there's the very real possibility he's not even gaining 2 edge for the action. PC A starts at 7 edge, period.
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I don’t follow that?
I go after pc3 but until my turn or in response to getting attacked by a npc why am I using edge. Both of which are opportunities to gain edge.
I could be the last person to go and the problem could still crop up.
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What I'm saying is that while 6-7 might lose out on edge due to the cap, maybe they weren't going to gain any edge anyway, either. And they still have 6-7 edge if they didn't earn any. Likewise, just as 5 edge can gain 2 edge then "start" at 7, maybe they won't be gaining that 2 edge and be at 5 anyway.
Illustrated: PC A has 7 edge. PC B has 5 edge. Since they're a team, they won't be fighting each other but some other number of NPC(s).
case 1: PC A goes first. PC B cannot gain 2 edge during the course of PC A's action. Granted, PC A can't take an edge point anyway, but if PC A were at 6 or if PC A had already spent some edge, PC B could give some edge away.. but then he'd be even lower than 5 for when his action comes.
case 2: PC B goes first. In the event PC B does not gain edge, PC B is not at the ceiling. Furthermore, PC A has the opportunity to spend some edge to give away to PC B, who can then be in what you're saying is the more enviable position of sitting on a slight deficiency for HIS action when it comes up.
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Con: 6 or 7 edge means you can potentially miss out on a point or two of potential edge gain immediately.
Seems a moot point to me, because the goal of gaining Edge is solely to enable the spending of it. You already have what you need/all you can carry. Missing one opportunity to gain more from the gate seems irrelevant, since you will be able to restock faster than the person without the higher starting value.
PC A takes turn, makes a 5 Edge spend. 2 left. Needs minimum of 2 rounds to recharge this ability. Can still spend more next round.
PC B takes turn, makes same 5 Edge spend. Needs 3 rounds to recharge this ability. Cannot spend more the next round without a gain.
The game impact is the spend, not the earn. Higher start means more options. You only care about the Earn step when you are below 7. Earns are also not a guarantee. 7 starting Edge is a guarantee.
Where's the downside of 7 starting Edge?
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...Higher start means more options. You only care about the Earn step when you are below 7. Earns are also not a guarantee. 7 starting Edge is a guarantee.
Where's the downside of 7 starting Edge?
I completely agree.
Best as I understand the opposing argument: the potential for lost edge due to being at the cap outweighs being at the cap in the first place.
Edit: either that, or buying 7 edge isn't worth the opportunity cost you could've otherwise purchased elsewhere in chargen.
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I bet one of the things you may use Edge on is to get a higher initiative score right when combat is about to start. That way a high Edge character have the option to start with higher than normal initiative score and still have plenty of Edge to spend on defense or offense.
Also, IIRC if you are about to gain a tactical advantage (maybe because your defense rating is much higher than the oppositions attack rating or maybe because you are trying to escape in a smoke filled room while the opposition is trying to gun you down) then you are allowed to spend that edge to for example increase your odds at dodging/reducing net hits of the very attack that gave you the advantage. That the cap only really comes into play after the action is resolved and you have Edge in 'overflow'.
Having said that, I also think it is a bit too early to theorycraft if one should statistically aim for 5 Edge, 6 Edge or 7 Edge when we don't even have a complete list of all things you can earn Edge on nor all things you can spend Edge on (and it even does not seem to be 100% confirmed how often you get to earn Edge, either).
And also that, all things considered equal, it will always be better to start with 7 Edge than 6 Edge.
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My understanding is that it is more the opportunity cost and possibly not gaining any additional advantages due to being capped.
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Given that the opportunity cost (except Mundane Humans) for Edge is Attributes, Magic, or Resonance, I'd say no. And if I recall correctly getting 7 Edge on a Mundane Human resulted in a couple unallocated points?
Edgelord builds will be quite uncommon I suspect.
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Stupid design. They should have made the cap 9.
Or better Edge Stat +2. No reason to allow somebody with Edge Stat 2 to get to 7 edge.
German rules forums also sate that edge is only capped to Edge Stat after a scene, but not refreshed up to it(or am I mistaken?). Even less reason to have a high edge stat.
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Thanks for putting this spin-off discussion aside ;)
Ok, 2 things to consider about this:
There are Edge uses that can be performed before any potential Edge-generating Action is declared (and thus, new Edge is generated). In the QSR alone, there is
- 1 Edge for +3 Initiative
- 2 Edge to give more Edge to your Allies (at a loss, but hey...)
- 3-4 Edge for healing Stun or Physical Damage
- 5 Edge for something extra special. That one is a gamble on your GM´s goodwill, but with this price tag, you can expect it to be something worthwhile.
That´s not the full list, more Edge uses might follow in the Core rules and in supplements.
Second: You cannot safely assume that you will generate Edge on the first Action you take or that´s taken against you. Opposition will be less likely to target you first if you are an unvavourable target that will likely get Edge from the Attack (and no, your GM is not supposed to play the opposition out as if they magically know that Player X is already "full of luck" and wouldn´t get more Edge ;)). And if you go first, the juciest target for Edge gain purposes might often not be the first one you want to take out.
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While it is possible that you may lose some edge in the first round with 7 edge starting, I suspect this may end up being not a major problem with many builds depending on qualities and the like to spend it on. We'll have to see once full CRB hits, and then splatbooks as they come out ect.
Personally, if it ends up being a problem I'd add a houserule that makes the 7 edge cap apply at the end of each full round. That way you don't lose any to first actions, but you've still got to use it quickly if you don't want it to be wasted.
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An obvious houserule to fix this is to allow the character with 7 Edge to spend the extra they are earning in the moment, even if they can't bank it. At least it has some utility then, and the player doesn't feel shortchanged.
So, say, Edgy Edgelord starts a fight with Edge 7 and an initiative roll of 11. Sam the Samurai rolls 13 for initiative and takes a shot at Edgy. The Edge calculation for that shot ends up giving Edgy two points. Edgy can't bank those points, but I'd let Edgy spend those two points while resolving the incoming attack.
If RAW/RAI really do say that those two points are straight up lost under those circumstances... well, ugh, I don't like that at all.
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When the new Edge system was hinted at, several posters commented that gaining 1 Edge didn't seem all that significant.
They were told that it really was significant, and worth more than it seemed.
Now, we are being told that losing out on up to 2 points of Edge if your character has a 7 Edge attribute isn't that big of a deal.
Which one is it? Can't have it both ways.
Either gaining 1 point of Edge is significant, and losing out on 1 point of Edge is significant.
OR
Losing out on a point of Edge isn't that big of a deal even if it does happen, and gaining a point of Edge doesn't really mean all that much.
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When the new Edge system was hinted at, several posters commented that gaining 1 Edge didn't seem all that significant.
They were told that it really was significant, and worth more than it seemed.
Now, we are being told that losing out on up to 2 points of Edge if your character has a 7 Edge attribute isn't that big of a deal.
Which one is it? Can't have it both ways.
Either gaining 1 point of Edge is significant, and losing out on 1 point of Edge is significant.
OR
Losing out on a point of Edge isn't that big of a deal even if it does happen, and gaining a point of Edge doesn't really mean all that much.
It's not a question of whether 1 edge is important, it's a dispute about whether the edge is in fact "missed out".
7 Edge: can't earn any edge on his action, but can spend edge during his action then earn edge on the enemy's action.
5 Edge: can earn edge on his action, but then can't earn any more edge on the enemy's action regardless of whether he spent edge.
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A minor but relevant point: Edgy Edgelord spends 4 edge to get +7 dice on a roll (and makes the whole pool exploding), while Standardus Maximus spends 4 edge to get +5 dice on a roll (and makes the whole pool exploding).
Maybe that doesn't make up for missing the opportunity to gain edge prior to your first action, but it ain't nuthin'.
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Thanks for putting this spin-off discussion aside ;)
Ok, 2 things to consider about this:
There are Edge uses that can be performed before any potential Edge-generating Action is declared (and thus, new Edge is generated). In the QSR alone, there is
- 1 Edge for +3 Initiative
- 2 Edge to give more Edge to your Allies (at a loss, but hey...)
- 3-4 Edge for healing Stun or Physical Damage
- 5 Edge for something extra special. That one is a gamble on your GM´s goodwill, but with this price tag, you can expect it to be something worthwhile.
That´s not the full list, more Edge uses might follow in the Core rules and in supplements.
Second: You cannot safely assume that you will generate Edge on the first Action you take or that´s taken against you. Opposition will be less likely to target you first if you are an unvavourable target that will likely get Edge from the Attack (and no, your GM is not supposed to play the opposition out as if they magically know that Player X is already "full of luck" and wouldn´t get more Edge ;)). And if you go first, the juciest target for Edge gain purposes might often not be the first one you want to take out.
Thank you Fin. That addresses my question. If you can expend edge during lead in, then the problem is workable.
As to your previous point in the last thread Fin yes the edge limit change reads like fairly classic mistake, but who knows. You never really know what the gamer base will do or like with total certainty.
On your second point, we are looking at Potential/Opportunity costs, you build to your satisfaction, you employ tactics to the level is appropriate for your character. But in the end you get edge or you don't. The build works or it doesn't. If your build a strategy including edge or not, and have taken the steps will hopeful lead to the build being effective, then follow the plan, and it doesn't work then you make a new plan and trying something else. Just as we have always built characters.
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Not sure if going first is as critical in this edition but +6 init + 5 edge is much better than just 5 edge.
Though, I think I could do this with a fast character (2 major actions).
Pre combat spend 1 edge for +3 init
6 edge remaining
spend 4 edge to attack all enemies based on whatever the limit is (5e was skill/2 I think) with full dice pool.
2 edge remaining
spend my 1st major action on the attack
presumably gain back 2 edge from some of those enemies
4 edge remaining
spend 4 edge to full attack all enemies
0 edge remaining.
Assuming 6 in your combat skill of choice, +2 specialization and multi attack limits are the same. With 6 or 7 edge to start a round you are conceivably making 8 full attacks before the enemy even gets to react.
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Aside from the fact that you can only spend edge once a round, that looks like a valid plan. I'd probably let you spend that first edge for initiative before combat starts, so you'd be able to pull off one set of attacks without the penalties, but not two.
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Aside from the fact that you can only spend edge once a round, that looks like a valid plan. I'd probably let you spend that first edge for initiative before combat starts, so you'd be able to pull off one set of attacks without the penalties, but not two.
Really? That makes Edge seem like a pretty poorly thought out mechanic. It rewards slowly acting characters far more than fast acting characters and spending Edge becomes a game of chicken. If that is truly the case, Edge is a trap and, unless initiative is obscenely important, I don't think I would ever want more than 2 in my Edge attribute.
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Aside from the fact that you can only spend edge once a round, that looks like a valid plan. I'd probably let you spend that first edge for initiative before combat starts, so you'd be able to pull off one set of attacks without the penalties, but not two.
Really? That makes Edge seem like a pretty poorly thought out mechanic. It rewards slowly acting characters far more than fast acting characters and spending Edge becomes a game of chicken. If that is truly the case, Edge is a trap and, unless initiative is obscenely important, I don't think I would ever want more than 2 in my Edge attribute.
Well, considering what you previously described has the distinct possibility of completely invalidating an entire combat for everyone except the one character, I don't see much of an issue with limiting people to one special edge bonus a round. If that makes you feel like you should never start with higher edge, that's your opinion.
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That makes Edge seem like a pretty poorly thought out mechanic.
I have to disagree there. It seems like they thought out your exact scenario and said "no, we can't allow that".
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QSR is once per Action, CRB in its current state (note that the errata team started working on it two months ago and we don't have access to the result yet) once per round. That makes it extra painful if a tactical player ends up losing on an opportunity to gain Edge. So I like the idea of the cap not immediately applying.
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That makes Edge seem like a pretty poorly thought out mechanic.
I have to disagree there. It seems like they thought out your exact scenario and said "no, we can't allow that".
You have far more faith in the designers than I do. If 2 attacks are why they limited Edge to once per round then they should've just limited the Edge pool to 5 and let it be spent per action. I am not saying it is a poorly thought out mechanic because I can't pull off two attacks against everyone - I am saying it is a poorly thought out mechanic because it can only be used once per round. That makes it something you horde (because you don't know if you will need it later) and the PCs/NPCs that act late can use their Edge in a much better way than ones that act early.
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Wait, so in addition to the Limit of 2 Edge gained per round, there´s also a limit on how often you can use Edge in a single combat round in the Core rules?
ARGH! People! What are you doing? This could be such a cool mechanic! Why do you feel the need to limit and neuter it? :o
*Adding this to my list of stuff I´m just going to blissfully ignore at my table*
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I'm building for 8 Edge. 8)
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But that's not possible. :-\