Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: penllawen on <07-31-19/0925:43>
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I'm eagerly waiting for more information on 6e (if only to settle some of the recurring circular arguments...) I know we don't know when the PDF will appear, which (to my mind) means it probably won't be this week. And even if I wanted the physical book, I bet it won't be out in the UK anytime soon, either. But will the NDA expire with the release of the physical CRB at GenCon? At least then the folks in the know will be able to share their seekrits with us freely!
(As I wrote this, it occurred to me that the date the NDA expires is probably, itself, covered under the NDA. If so: drat.)
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there should be plenty of us that will be willing and able to talk freely on the CRB as soon as we get back to the internet after gencon
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What, they don't have wifi on the hotel?? You need to spill the beans to the internet the second you are allowed! ;)
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What, they don't have wifi on the hotel?? You need to spill the beans to the internet the second you are allowed! ;)
well for me it's going to be more about all I will have access to is my phone until I get back to my room, which will probably after midnight on a good day, then back up at 7 am ... lot's of meetings and events. :)
so ... that doesn't leave much opportunity for cohesive thoughts and posting
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So you think you’ll only be able to fit in 2-3 hours per day of videochat Q&A, huh?
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So you think you’ll only be able to fit in 2-3 hours per day of videochat Q&A, huh?
lol ... yeah sure.
If someone wants to follow me around with a camera they can film me running the 6E demos and First Taste scenarios
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If someone wants to follow me around with a camera they can film me running the 6E demos and First Taste scenarios
I for one would follow someone following you around with a camera... ;-)
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Sounds like we have the Johnson lined up for this run. Now we need an Indianapolis fixer to hook us up with local ‘runners :)
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I hate to think about the details involved in a silent run into GenCon... Badge security is supposed to be a nightmare and you're not allowed to declare it a black op halfway through or even use violence as a distraction. How horrible is that?
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Easy. Get the face to spread rumours that D&D is for Satan worshippers, start a moral panic, and get the security guards all tied up looking after a thousand petitioning middle-class parents out front. Next, intercept a few real con-goers en route to the hall, burst fire dual Narcojets by the sammy, now the whole team has badges. Stash the sleeping beauties in a locked utility closet. Deck into the GenCon host and change the photos associated with the badges, and stroll right in the door, chummer.
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Iirc they said mid September so I wouldn’t be in to much of a hurry. It’s unlikely the fan base will begin forming real opinions about 6e before mid October.
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What, they don't have wifi on the hotel?? You need to spill the beans to the internet the second you are allowed! ;)
Have you been to GenCon? It is exhausting..most people go out, play their games,or for CGL folks, do their booth stuff..and remember many of the writers are also doubling as Demo Agents a lot of the time), get back to your room, fall into bed, wake up in time to go out and do it all over again (and, if you are lucky, grab food on your way out of the hotel, after your minimum 1 shower a day)
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Pretty sure Xenon was kidding, I know I was ;)
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Sooooooo are we now in the post-NDA era? Is anyone who's had access to the CRB (and isn't busy at GenCon, obv) willing to start fielding specific questions? Coz I have a list...
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I will also note that chances are Banshee is drunk as a skunk by the time he stumbles back to his hotel room after hanging with the Shadowrun Scotch Squad for a couple hours ;)
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Sooooooo are we now in the post-NDA era? Is anyone who's had access to the CRB (and isn't busy at GenCon, obv) willing to start fielding specific questions? Coz I have a list...
lay 'em down, we got answers..
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after your minimum 1 shower a day)
haha i think you're over estimating that by a factor of 10.
Judging by the smell at any rate.
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lay 'em down, we got answers.
Starting Build Karma total?
Attribute increase multiplier?
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Is there a strength requirement to wield melee weapons?
If not, is there any other game mechanic we have not heard about yet that might encourage you to get some 3-4 strength if you have a focus on melee weapons...?
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lay 'em down, we got answers..
Yay! Here's what I've had on my mind:
1) role of Strength for melee characters?
- attack rating?
- minimum for various weapons?
- unarmed damage?
- used for any skill Dice Pools?
- can picking up a melee weapon make you do less damage?
2) role of armour
- anything beyond Edge calculation?
- Hardened armour? Autosoak hits?
3) Edge earned per round/turn/action limit stuff
4) action economy
- range of minor actions? How useful are they?
- options for non-Samurai to get initiative boosts? How distinct are chromed/physad warriors from other archetypes?
5) NPCs and Edge
- how do they earn / spend it
- for mobs and for discrete NPCs
6) number of skills?
- is it really down below 20?
7) chargen metahuman builds
- how do special attribute points work anyway?
8) chargen priority E to Attributes
- is it really a “trap”?
- what is baseline human stat? Is it 2 now?
9) what does a Vehicle Control Rig do now?
10) fire modes, how do they work?
- QSR only has SS/SA/BF
11) lethality, relative and absolute
- eg troll bow vs assault cannon
- what’s the likelihood of a heavy pistol one-shot-kill?
12) is vehicle damage/repair still very expensive?
13) grenades/explosive - anything to mitigate what looks like very high lethality?
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1) role of Strength for melee characters?
- attack rating?
- unarmed damage?
I can answer parts of it:
Attack Rating for Unarmed = Strength + Reaction
Damage Value for Unarmed = Strength / 2 (round up)
Damage Value for Unarmed can also be increased by +1 or +2 by using Bone Lacing or Bone Density.
Attack Rating for Thrown grenades: Strength + Reaction / Strength + Reaction - 2 / Strength + Reaction - 6 / 0 / 0
Rating of Bow (which is used for Damage Value and Attack Rating) is derived by Strength (also Throwing Weapons??)
Max carry is also derived from Strength.
Augmented Unarmed Trolls will deal a lot of damage in this edition (think Hulk).
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Honestly I still don't know how far the NDA is lifted now, given how the book itself only is out to those who bought it at GenCon, so I definitely won't throw in rule-quotes with page references yet but I can answer some stuff. (To be honest, I don't really feel like it because some of these questions sound extremely leading.)
> role of Strength for melee characters?
It's used in your Unarmed Attack Rating and Unarmed damage. Features in grappling. Plays a role in Athletics sometimes. Threshold for the Edge action Wrest, which is a cheap Edge action you can take after succesfully Blocking a melee attack. You also use a Strength test when using for example an axe to try to cut through a wall, to increase the DV for comparison. And of course you use Strength in several resist-restraining spells/powers. Bows need Strength for their Rating, which determines their DV. Medium Machine Guns need 2+ Strength, Heavy 5+.
(Also: Lifting now is S*S*10, so high-Strength characters are now much better at lifting stuff.)
And yes, if your Unarmed Combat Damage is heavy, e.g. 8 for an X(11) bone-augmented Troll, then using any sort of weapon will mean you do less damage. Because even the Panther XXL only does 7P base.
> role of armour
Armor has a Defense Boost and Capacity for mods. Hardened Armor gives autohits equal to its rating, which is being discussed regarding game balance but fell outside of the scope of Hotfix errata.
> Edge earned per round/turn/action limit stuff
- You can earn 2 Edge max per Round
- You can spend Edge once per Action
- When spending Edge, you can use a boost multiple times, e.g. spend 3 Edge to reroll 3 of your opponent's dice
> action economy
Drugs, spells, adept powers, augmentations all still exist. HotSim got nerfed to 3d6 Initiative, meaning Matrix people face a tough choice between 2 Majors and 1 Major with 4 Minors.
There are a lot of Minor Actions. Plenty of useful ones. As to what you consider useful, I have no idea. Some people will complain, others will love the toybox.
> NPCs and Edge
They earn it the same way anyone else does. An entire set of Enemies may spend Edge only once per turn. So if you face 8 gangbangers and they split into 2 groups of 4 when attacking you, these two groups combined can spend Edge exactly once per turn.
The initial Edge value equals the Professional Rating, which ranges from 0 to 10. If you have a Prime Runner, they are like players so with individual Edge stats and gain individually as well. On top of that, a Prime Runner can freely steal Edge from his Professional Rating Grunt minions.
> number of skills?
19. And plenty of skills you'll never touch, of course.
Magic: Astral, Conjuring, Enchanting, Sorcery
Matrix: Cracking, Electronics, Tasking
Specialist: Biotech, Engineering, Outdoors
Social: Con, Influence
Combat: Athletics, Close Combat, Firearms, Exotic Weapons
Other: Perception, Piloting, Stealth
> chargen metahuman builds
You can put SAPs into the Special Attributes and into your Racial Attributes, aka the Attributes where your Race has a maximum above 6. So Dwarf Body/Strength/Willpower, Elf Agility/Charisma, Ork/Troll Body/Strength.
> chargen priority E to Attributes
"Trap" is a leading phrase. Posts were VERY clear about it: There's builds possible with it that some people may consider viable. Personal preferences heavily apply. As for baseline human stat: That is not named. But only at PR 3+ do you get above average 2.125, Thugs-Gangers are all average 1.875-2.125, so pretty much 2 as baseline.
> what does a Vehicle Control Rig do now?
Lets you jump in. Gives you a dicepool bonus to all jumped-in action stuff. Gives you a point of Edge on that shit. Exact details are in the book.
> fire modes, how do they work?
SS normal, SA and BF give an AR penalty for DV bonus. BF can also use Multiple Attacks and target 2 people with a split dicepool instead. FA can split dicepool into X attacks, which may be partially same person, doesn't use Multiple Attacks so unlike BF an FA-attack can NOT use Anticipation Edge Action.
> lethality, relative and absolute
Leading question. A Troll can at max reach Panther damage. As for one-shot-kills: I'm not pulling out statistics when everyone can run math. If you want super-lethality, play with "Here comes the Reaper" rules.
> is vehicle damage/repair still very expensive?
No costs are described, so up to the GM what the "needed parts" will cost you. It's simply a really lengthy process if the damage is massive: Damage-type modifies the interval, NOT the threshold.
> grenades/explosive - anything to mitigate what looks like very high lethality?
Don't run around like crazy so you can still run around, or simply involve any kind of tactical moves that will prevent you from being torn apart by grenades.
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On the role of strength in armed melee combat: as MC mentioned your strength sets the threshold for an unopposed conditional test to simply take your weapon away from you.
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On the role of strength in armed melee combat: as MC mentioned your strength sets the threshold for an unopposed conditional test to simply take your weapon away from you.
Oh, didn't see that one coming. But that is actually pretty nice. As a general rule you don't want to run too low strength then, but you also don't need to over-commit - unless you also focus on unarmed combat (or bows or throwing weapons). So a street samurai can for example go for 3-4 strength and still benefit by switching to his katana during close encounters. I approve.
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On the role of strength in armed melee combat: as MC mentioned your strength sets the threshold for an unopposed conditional test to simply take your weapon away from you.
Oh wow, I love this! I assume also for a melee character attacking someone with a ranged weapon, of course? "I'll take that gun, thanks. POW!"
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On the role of strength in armed melee combat: as MC mentioned your strength sets the threshold for an unopposed conditional test to simply take your weapon away from you.
Oh thank Saeletra someone who says MC. Too many people call me Chandra. O_O
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(To be honest, I don't really feel like it because some of these questions sound extremely leading.)
Oh, sorry! Not my intention at all. Apologies.
(I'll read the rest of your post when I have time to absorb it. Thank you for the thorough reply.)
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Context: 4/5ths of my table are at a barbecue right now, we're gossiping about the post above. We're pretty excited, especially my troll melee monster player!
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Honestly I still don't know how far the NDA is lifted now, given how the book itself only is out to those who bought it at GenCon, so I definitely won't throw in rule-quotes with page references yet but I can answer some stuff. (To be honest, I don't really feel like it because some of these questions sound extremely leading.)
First of all: Thanks ;D
> role of Strength for melee characters?
It's used in your Unarmed Attack Rating and Unarmed damage. Features in grappling. Plays a role in Athletics sometimes. Threshold for the Edge action Wrest, which is a cheap Edge action you can take after succesfully Blocking a melee attack. You also use a Strength test when using for example an axe to try to cut through a wall, to increase the DV for comparison. And of course you use Strength in several resist-restraining spells/powers. Bows need Strength for their Rating, which determines their DV. Medium Machine Guns need 2+ Strength, Heavy 5+.
(Also: Lifting now is S*S*10, so high-Strength characters are now much better at lifting stuff.)
And yes, if your Unarmed Combat Damage is heavy, e.g. 8 for an X(11) bone-augmented Troll, then using any sort of weapon will mean you do less damage. Because even the Panther XXL only does 7P base.
Not too bad, apart from the last paragraph. The fact that unarmed melee can stack so high is one thing (after all, that DS doesn´t necessarily reflect the damage of a single punch. And also, HULK SMASH!), but the fact that it makes armed melee pointless for high-strenght characters is something that should be looked into - if not by some kind of hotfix, then at least in the Combat supplement.
(I may already have a kind of a measured houserule for this. I´ll see if its viable when I have a look at the full ruleset...)
> role of armour
Armor has a Defense Boost and Capacity for mods. Hardened Armor gives autohits equal to its rating, which is being discussed regarding game balance but fell outside of the scope of Hotfix errata.
I suspect that Hardened Armor = Spirit and Dragonscale armor (at least for now)?
Yeah that should definitely be discussed then. I just hope that discussion is about on how to fix this and not about the question if its balanced in the first place :P
I´d say just add the rating to the soak roll, like old-school armor in the previous Editions. With the overall lowered damage codes, that should already be worth a lot. Or it´s just half the rating in Autohits, like in 5th Edition. But the full value in Autohits? O. Boi.
> Edge earned per round/turn/action limit stuff
- You can earn 2 Edge max per Round
- You can spend Edge once per Action
- When spending Edge, you can use a boost multiple times, e.g. spend 3 Edge to reroll 3 of your opponent's dice
I think I´ve already voiced my oppinion on the 2-Edge-per-round limit more than enough. It remains to be seen how often this limit applies in a real session, though. For the record: If When I try SR6 for the first time, I will houserules this right away; but I´ll keep track on how much Edge would have gone to waste if I actually applied this limit :P
Thanks for the errata and clarification on the other stuff. An RAI limit on Edge uses per round would have been just as bad the gain limit.
> action economy
Drugs, spells, adept powers, augmentations all still exist. HotSim got nerfed to 3d6 Initiative, meaning Matrix people face a tough choice between 2 Majors and 1 Major with 4 Minors.
There are a lot of Minor Actions. Plenty of useful ones. As to what you consider useful, I have no idea. Some people will complain, others will love the toybox.
This one sounds really good to me so far. I can understand when some people miss the multiple passes from SR4 and SR5, but for me as a >90% GM, it was just too cumbersome hard to keep everyone engaged when the Initiative-Monsters played out their 1-2 additional turns.
> NPCs and Edge
They earn it the same way anyone else does. An entire set of Enemies may spend Edge only once per turn. So if you face 8 gangbangers and they split into 2 groups of 4 when attacking you, these two groups combined can spend Edge exactly once per turn.
The initial Edge value equals the Professional Rating, which ranges from 0 to 10. If you have a Prime Runner, they are like players so with individual Edge stats and gain individually as well. On top of that, a Prime Runner can freely steal Edge from his Professional Rating Grunt minions.
Wait, there is still a limit on Edge uses per round, but for a whole group of Grunts? Or am just falling victim to the ol´turn VS round confusion myself now? ::) So how does the Edge gain limit work for grunts? Is there one?
> number of skills?
19. And plenty of skills you'll never touch, of course.
Magic: Astral, Conjuring, Enchanting, Sorcery
Matrix: Cracking, Electronics, Tasking
Specialist: Biotech, Engineering, Outdoors
Social: Con, Influence
Combat: Athletics, Close Combat, Firearms, Exotic Weapons
Other: Perception, Piloting, Stealth
I wonder where Intimidation is housed now? Influence?
> chargen metahuman builds
You can put SAPs into the Special Attributes and into your Racial Attributes, aka the Attributes where your Race has a maximum above 6. So Dwarf Body/Strength/Willpower, Elf Agility/Charisma, Ork/Troll Body/Strength.
> chargen priority E to Attributes
"Trap" is a leading phrase. Posts were VERY clear about it: There's builds possible with it that some people may consider viable. Personal preferences heavily apply. As for baseline human stat: That is not named. But only at PR 3+ do you get above average 2.125, Thugs-Gangers are all average 1.875-2.125, so pretty much 2 as baseline.
It remains to be seen what can build using the Attr. A or B can be viable.
But if it really turns out to be a "trap": Well... Don´t fall in it, I guess? ???
> lethality, relative and absolute
Leading question. A Troll can at max reach Panther damage. As for one-shot-kills: I'm not pulling out statistics when everyone can run math. If you want super-lethality, play with "Here comes the Reaper" rules.
One of my biggest concerns with the lethality is the viability of quick takedowns, which are important for stealth missions. If its next to impossible in to silently take a guard out with one (or max. two) attacks, mirrorshade espionage missions will have a hard standing without houserules or GM handwaving.
The Errata sheets mentions a Knockout Blow Action as an Edge use. I presume that this is already meant as one answer to this problem?
> is vehicle damage/repair still very expensive?
No costs are described, so up to the GM what the "needed parts" will cost you. It's simply a really lengthy process if the damage is massive: Damage-type modifies the interval, NOT the threshold.
> grenades/explosive - anything to mitigate what looks like very high lethality?
Don't run around like crazy so you can still run around, or simply involve any kind of tactical moves that will prevent you from being torn apart by grenades.
Silly silly Grenades. It´s a tough thing. With a realistic DS, they are too strong and with a more balanced DS, they are not realistic.
I don´t know how armor comes into play when defending against grenades. I guess you still soak the blast with body only? Maybe that´s a good start for troubleshooting once the laments about the new explosive meta start to swell: Just add the armor score to the soak roll against explosives. It would make a lot of sense: With the new 6th Edition armor mechanic alone, armor will likely contribute even less to your survivability against explosions and shrapnell than it would against conventional attacks. In reality, it´s the other way around (at least to my humble knowledge).
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On the role of strength in armed melee combat: as MC mentioned your strength sets the threshold for an unopposed conditional test to simply take your weapon away from you.
That’s not a positive to me. Outside of surprise no combat actions should be unopposed.
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On phone so don’t want to try and cut and paste a bunch. Fin, a realistic DV for grenades would be far far less than listed. Grenades have a relatively low causality rate out a of a couple meters. If you drop prone and are a few meters out you have a high chance of escaping without any injury. Hell even at point blank range I expect there death rate is lower than getting hit by a heavy machine gun on auto fire. They are basically a well designed pipe bombs not mini nukes. So whether realism or game balance the grenade damages don’t work for me.
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Yeah weapon grabbing tile is not a good thin in my book. And it’s far too easy as written.
Those looking for rules info may have a better time on the reddit sub.
Seems to be a lot of folks working through it there.
Warning: the shit is hitting the fan right now.
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The more I think about the disarm thing I have 3 issues.
1. All combat tests should be opposed outside initial surprise. I even thought the whole no defense test when shooting someone on the other side of a wall thing was bad. If they are in combat they are moving defensively. You don’t actually dodge bullets just make yourself a hard target which you are still doing on that side of a wall
2. It sounds too easy
3. Mechanically it doesn’t work to motivate high strength. Once your strength is high enough the test isn’t easy you’d be switching towards unarmed combat anyways. So basically it sounds like another reason not to use strength unless a unarmed combatant.
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On phone so don’t want to try and cut and paste a bunch. Fin, a realistic DV for grenades would be far far less than listed. Grenades have a relatively low causality rate out a of a couple meters. If you drop prone and are a few meters out you have a high chance of escaping without any injury. Hell even at point blank range I expect there death rate is lower than getting hit by a heavy machine gun on auto fire. They are basically a well designed pipe bombs not mini nukes. So whether realism or game balance the grenade damages don’t work for me.
I respectfully disagree, but I also don´t think that grenade lethality should be 100% realistic, for gameplay issues. The fact that you have a turn-bases system alone turns a realistic lethality into a huge balancing problem. True: In reality, standing near to an exploding grenade will incapitate* you. But in reality, you will also shout out GRENADE and yeet yourself behind the next cover the second you see one popping up. You won´t stand there until its your turn because you "already used your move Action."
*That´s a distinction worth noting here. With Overflow being buffed to Body*2, even Grenades at ground zero will likely not insta-kill you.
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I’ll drop any realism arguments for this then
Remember this is on a scale of anti material rifles doing 7 maybe 8dv base. 16 or even 12 doesn’t make sense. Game play wise it’s just unsatisfying to not get a defense test and you can justify net hits increasing damage on grenades just to represent the somewhat random spread of projectiles or net hits on defense to represent less damage. Figure out how effective compared to other weapon attacks you want them to be make that the on target damage base reduce damage in each band out. Standard attack and defense test incorporate scatter even if it misses you potentially take some damage.
My suggestion somewhere on these forums was 1/2 the damages. Attack vs defense test. Roll scatter. Gross hits va scatter to see if on target. Net hits increase damage, wash base damage, a miss or more hits on defense test than attack test indicate effectively one range band out and take base that damage. 8 for on target is still more than a assault canon, 6 for close is sniper rifle range, 4 farthest range is heavy pistol lethality. Seems reasonable.
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On the role of strength in armed melee combat: as MC mentioned your strength sets the threshold for an unopposed conditional test to simply take your weapon away from you.
That’s not a positive to me. Outside of surprise no combat actions should be unopposed.
Well, an opposed test versus the target's Strength would be much more difficult than the attacker than using the Strength as a threshold, no?
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On the role of strength in armed melee combat: as MC mentioned your strength sets the threshold for an unopposed conditional test to simply take your weapon away from you.
That’s not a positive to me. Outside of surprise no combat actions should be unopposed.
Well, an opposed test versus the target's Strength would be much more difficult than the attacker than using the Strength as a threshold, no?
The opposed test should be vs there combat skill pool with strength still as a threshold. Disarming someone should be really hard. Maybe with edge just the opposed test or 1/2 strength as the new threshold.
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You could houserule it as an Edge use?
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To reiterate: thanks again MC for this reply.
> role of Strength for melee characters?
...snip...
So this, for me at least, negates the "strength is a dump stat" meme that was going around.
Was another hunch of mine correct? Do (some?) melee weapons have a Strength minimum to use? Can you share a couple of example damage stats / min strengths (if that is a thing)? I'm curious how it scales relative to unarmed and ranged combat. I was wondering if there any that beat str/2 scaling, so do more damage that unarmed.
And yes, if your Unarmed Combat Damage is heavy, e.g. 8 for an X(11) bone-augmented Troll, then using any sort of weapon will mean you do less damage. Because even the Panther XXL only does 7P base.
Couple of things I see here:
Unarmed doing more damage than Panther - mechanically, I think that's Ok from a risk/reward standpoint. Melee is higher risk, so higher reward is reasonable. In fluff terms, I think it can be explained by an unarmed combat attack covering more than one actual blow (which is how I've always described it anyway), so it might be a half dozen blows in a combo from someone who can bench press a medium sized car. Which would certainly hurt.
Unarmed vs armed is a bit stranger to me, mechanically, I think; the fact that Troll characters might (I guess?) do more damage if they drop their claymore or sledge, assuming they have physical unarmed damage (cyberarms or bone lacing.) Seems off-putting.
Although I've made an assumption -- do augs and knucks still change unarmed damage to physical? That'd make this look different, if that's changed and unarmed is always stun damage.
What's the racial max strength for orcs and trolls, out of interest?
Armor has a Defense Boost and Capacity for mods. Hardened Armor gives autohits equal to its rating, which is being discussed regarding game balance but fell outside of the scope of Hotfix errata.
Gotcha. Is there hardened personal armou? Security armour or full-body or stuff? Or is it like 5e and just critters and vehicles?
- You can earn 2 Edge max per Round
Hmm. Still not sure how I feel about the "clipping" effect here, where a lot of stuff the PC does right won't count because they've already hit the cap... but I suspect fiddling with it will be a drastic change. Hmm hmm hmm.
- You can spend Edge once per Action
- When spending Edge, you can use a boost multiple times, e.g. spend 3 Edge to reroll 3 of your opponent's dice
Cool, I think these sound good.
> action economy
Drugs, spells, adept powers, augmentations all still exist. HotSim got nerfed to 3d6 Initiative, meaning Matrix people face a tough choice between 2 Majors and 1 Major with 4 Minors.
Ooooh, interesting. That probably feels like it buffs wired samurai / physads, too, comparatively? As they can get significantly higher than that. I like that.
There are a lot of Minor Actions. Plenty of useful ones. As to what you consider useful, I have no idea. Some people will complain, others will love the toybox.
Some of the ones I've seen in the errata and others have mentioned sound intriguing. It certainly sounds like there's a wider variety than there are for simple actions in 5e.
My primary interest here is the calculation for samurais to make between a second attack or a range of minor actions. My hunch, it's desirable that there's enough minors to make that an interesting decision and not a matter of "well obviously I shoot twice, same as last time." Sounds like that's true?
> NPCs and Edge
They earn it the same way anyone else does. An entire set of Enemies may spend Edge only once per turn. So if you face 8 gangbangers and they split into 2 groups of 4 when attacking you, these two groups combined can spend Edge exactly once per turn.
Seems reasonable.
The initial Edge value equals the Professional Rating, which ranges from 0 to 10. If you have a Prime Runner, they are like players so with individual Edge stats and gain individually as well. On top of that, a Prime Runner can freely steal Edge from his Professional Rating Grunt minions.
So, broadly, the big boys are laden with Edge? Again, seems reasonable.
> number of skills?
19. And plenty of skills you'll never touch, of course.
This is maybe, in some ways, the most radical change? Of course you still have knowledge skills on top of that (which I think I read are cheaper now? As they don't have ratings?)
The complaint I've seen expressed is characters might feel similar to each other due to reduced numbers of skills to pick from. Not sure I buy that. But I'd want to generate a few and see how they look. I think you have to look at this across the whole chargen system, including all the priorities and the point values across the categories.
Riggers and deckers feel like they benefit a lot from this. They were under pretty severe skills crunch in 5e, to my mind. It was very difficult to cover even some of the bases without care.
> chargen priority E to Attributes
"Trap" is a leading phrase.
Aye, the scare quotes where because I didn't agree with the argument that went on.
Posts were VERY clear about it: There's builds possible with it that some people may consider viable. Personal preferences heavily apply. As for baseline human stat: That is not named. But only at PR 3+ do you get above average 2.125, Thugs-Gangers are all average 1.875-2.125, so pretty much 2 as baseline.
Fair. I wrote this question done before the thread the other day, but it was well-covered there. Should have deleted it.
> what does a Vehicle Control Rig do now?
Lets you jump in. Gives you a dicepool bonus to all jumped-in action stuff. Gives you a point of Edge on that shit. Exact details are in the book.
Ok, I was wondering if the Edge had replaced the dice pool bonus. Riggers getting more buffs is A-OK by me. I love riggers.
> lethality, relative and absolute
Leading question. A Troll can at max reach Panther damage. As for one-shot-kills: I'm not pulling out statistics when everyone can run math. If you want super-lethality, play with "Here comes the Reaper" rules.
So I ment this as "comparing 5e to 6e" and it's really just out of interest. I don't have a strong opinion if more or less lethality is better or worse. I think it's a matter of taste and play style, and likely wants tweaking at each GM's table anyway.
I might write a little combat sim program to run some calculations comparing 5e and 6e, just so I feel like I understand the delta between the two versions.
> is vehicle damage/repair still very expensive?
No costs are described, so up to the GM what the "needed parts" will cost you. It's simply a really lengthy process if the damage is massive: Damage-type modifies the interval, NOT the threshold.
Sounds good. I think 5e's repair costs are pretty punitive. I know that's commonly house ruled.
> grenades/explosive - anything to mitigate what looks like very high lethality?
Don't run around like crazy so you can still run around, or simply involve any kind of tactical moves that will prevent you from being torn apart by grenades.
ie. keep Minor Actions in reserve so you can use dodge-style actions? Ok, I still think those damage codes look very high (shades of 2e's full-on chunky salsa rule) but I can see that.
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No minimum Strength for other weapons, though I can imagine some would like that rule (I'd probably base the restriction on AR or DV). A Knife is 2P, a combat axe 5P, everything else melee is inbetween. Pistols are 2P~3P, rifles are 4P~5P except the Barrett which is 6P. The Panther XXL is officially a Machine Gun so I'd personally label it a Heavy Machine Gun (so 5+ Strength required).
Dwarves 8 (edit: whups, wrote down their max Body by accident), Orks (remember, the only O.R.C. in Shadowrun is the Orks Rights Committee) 8, Trolls go to 9.
In CRB, only Dracoforms and Materialized Spirits have Hardened Armor. Well, that and Sharks. I'm going to assume that's a typo... -,- Though I for one welcome our new finned overlords.
I agree with the 2 Edge per Round being little. It's more gritty, but I imagine some tables will go with 2 per Action (or the 'spend it immediately and it doesn't count for the limit', making saving up still slowish but allowing you to bang-bang) for more dramatic rule-of-cool gameplay.
Knowledge skills are cheap as hell, yes. Under the suggested training times, they're 1 month and 3 karma. Their effect is allowing you to do specific skill checks related to the knowledge. For example, a normal player would roll Perception to realise those orks over there seem to wear Gang colors. A player with "Seattle Gangs" Knowledge skill might roll the same Perception check but instead realise that's the Crimson Crush and what the heck are THOSE doing in this neighbourhood?!
Riggers now get to both fire and repair with the same skill, so they definitely got a big boost here. Deckers just need 2 skills, so a Degger will need 3 skills and go full-mental attribute-wise.
As for math: A default decently-augmented Street Sam rolled like 23 dice in SR5, and would roll like 8 here? 8P base from a Predator in SR5, 3P here, 15 soak dice less, so that sample scenario would be quite comparable, and you'd have less variation in your Damage-soak roll so the damage output is more stable. Downside of that is of course also less chance of not taking any damage at all.
Under RAW, you can only evade a grenade if you didn't move at all. I think I'd allow it once after you moved and 2x~3x if you hadn't moved. Definitely space for figuring out some nice flexible system if a game ever turns grenade-heavy. And yeah, it's extremely tempting to nerf the DVs, though on the other hand grenades don't get bonus damage from net hits. I think the best anti-grenade system would be allowing the group to spend some combined Edge points to reroll hits and force the grenades to scatter. Definitely something to look into, once the game has been played a bit more.
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The whole choice to make str completely useless and then put a str requirement on gear forcing players to invest in a useless attribute. It's pointlessly punishing and it completely the opposite of simplification. It's just another example of 6e punishing players totally arbitrarily.
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Let’s face it 6e has badly missed the mark (to put it mildly).
Check out reddit for the deets.
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Not super sure how I feel about the reddit being pushed as a place to get 'deep in the paint' as it were in terms of image but yes there are a lot of people talking and discussing things. Reddit is after all a site literally designed to make it easy for topics to be discussed in depth with tangents being easily contained and tracked.
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On phone so don’t want to try and cut and paste a bunch. Fin, a realistic DV for grenades would be far far less than listed. Grenades have a relatively low causality rate out a of a couple meters. If you drop prone and are a few meters out you have a high chance of escaping without any injury. Hell even at point blank range I expect there death rate is lower than getting hit by a heavy machine gun on auto fire. They are basically a well designed pipe bombs not mini nukes. So whether realism or game balance the grenade damages don’t work for me.
Standard reliable casualty radius for the US Army's hand grenade is 15m, but it's important to note that a lot of militaries have two types of explosive grenades (not counting WP): Defensive and offensive. Defensive grenades have a higher explosive charge/blast radius, as they are meant to be used from cover (foxhole, bunker, etc.); they have an explosive blast radius that is generally greater than the distance a standard person can throw them. Offensive grenades are like the M67 hand grenade; they are meant to be used in general, including when not in a prepared position, and thus have a reduced explosive charge (hence the 15m reliable casualty radius).
The physics of an explosion get really 'wibbly, wobbly, wonky' (to paraphrase Dr. Who); you can have a body five meters away from an explosion dead, but without a mark on it, while 7m past that can be another body that is torn apart. A person can have a grenade land right next to them and survive, and then have the same grenade fall in the same identical way and have them blown apart. I'm sure the are a bunch of physics equations that try to explain this, but I'll stick with explosions are all 'wibbly, wobbly, wonky.' The point is that grenades are deadlier than you are making them out to be. If a grenade explodes a couple of meters away, expect to be dead (not factoring in their crazy physics, of course).
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Minor correction: It's still 3+ Strength for a Medium Machine Gun, errata simply clarify that Gyromount modifies Medium/Heavy requirements to 2+/4+ instead.
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Can I make an Elf character be a badass agility fighter that can compete with Trolls?
What should I make him? How should I make him? I have he 6e core rulebook now. I want him to be good with guns also.
An Adept or maybe a Street Samurai?
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Can I make an Elf character be a badass agility fighter that can compete with Trolls?
With unarmed being a potential exception, elves are strictly more dangerous than trolls with melee weapons due to the higher agility cap. That said, the troll's additional 3 soak dice are far more valuable than the elf's additional dice to hit in this edition.
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Troll also have 2 extra condition boxes beyond what his already high body will give him. And deal physical damage with unarmed. Building a 'Hulk' character that use his fists rather than melee weapons (and perhaps a bow for ranged combat) will be very dangerous in this edition. Hitting through brick walls.
But it also seem to be highly viable to build an agility elf with a melee weapon focus. Perhaps as a physical adept using a weapon focus. Toss in some Athletics & Stealth and you got yourself a bad-ass 'Ninja' type.
And it also seem to be viable to build a mercenary. Perhaps with an armored jacket, a firearm focus, that have maybe 3-4 total, already augmented, strength that also carry a katana. In this edition he or she will actually benefit by switching to the sword when it comes to close encounters, unlike for example SR5 where it was better to just keep using a sniper rifle or assault rifle, even in QCB. This is probably the character I think of when I hear 'Street Samurai'.