Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Jimmy_Pvish on <08-03-19/2237:32>
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In SR6, basic cyberlimbs come with AGI 2/STR 2
Under Attribute Increase, we can increase AGI or STR to maximum augmented of +4.
My question is, +4 from what? from 2 of basic cyberlimbs? (so, 2+4, 6 max?)
Or +4 from my meat attribute?
If that's the case, my AGI 3 character need AGI 7 cyberarm, does he need to buy Attribute Increase +4 or +5? (build from 2 of basic limb or build from 3 of my meat attribute).
Also Attribute Increase can increase armor as well, how many armor I can buy with it?
max 4 per limbs? sum to 4 of all cyberlimbs? or no limit as long as there are enough capacity in that limb?
Also about availability rating in general.
- It said you can't buy any illegal gear with a availability rating 7 or higher, so I can buy any availability gear as long as it's not illegal gear?
- under gear sector, it said availability range from 1 to 6, but circumstances can push them up to 9.
So, 9 is the hard cap of availability in game?
something like power focus have [force+3] availability, so force 6 power focus is the upper limit you can get in game?
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The maximum bonus you can get from cyberlimbs obeys augmented maximum. Say your natural attribute is 3. You boost your limb to 8. You roll as if it's 7 due to augmented maximum, but if you ever raise your natural value to 4 you get to roll the full 8.
The increase is bought from the Base 2.
I thought it was higher than 7I? No book at hand. But yeah it can be bigger as long as it is L or - instead of I.
I'd have to reread that section but I think it's more a general description and not a hard cap. So availability 10+ is allowed just very rare.
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Nothing I that is 7 or higher. Which from my quick scan of the Gear section is basically the Fairlight Excalibur. Alpha, Beta, or Delta grade Augmentation could push some of the Augmentations to 7 or more.
Cyberlimbs and Attribute Increase are both Legal so, Availability doesn't matter.
And I would read the +4 Augmentation Max for Cyberlimbs to be based on your Natural Attribute.
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Fairlight got errata'd: It's 6I, the value listed in the Matrix Chapter. Gamma-Scopolamine and Seven-7 are too high at 7I and 10I respectively.
I checked, it talks about 'the maximum augmented increase of 4 is in place here', on p43 the restriction is described as increase above your current rank.
Edit: Speaking of, Seven-7 proves that no, gear with availability 10+ is still possible.
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Another problem I found about Cyberlimbs.
P288 - "Basic limbs are installed with all Physical attributes at 2"
Which mean they have BOD 2 and REA 2, too. :P
Conclusion - don't use cyberlimbs in this edition, they're for cripple who lose their limbs, not to enhance your combat ability.
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"Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user." This suggests it's not a problem, so unless your GM gives you a hard time things aren't as bad as that, even awaiting clarification.
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"Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user." This suggests it's not a problem, so unless your GM gives you a hard time things aren't as bad as that, even awaiting clarification.
"Attributes for limbs may vary, but dice pools are always built from the lowest attribute of all the limbs unless the test solely involves that singular location (gamemaster’s discretion)."
Enjoy eternal BOD 2 and REA 2 no matter your meat BOD and REA is
Soak? 2
Defense Rating? 2 + armor
Defense dice pool? 2 + INT
Initiative? 2 + INT + INI dice
And it isn't even useful for BOD 1 and REA 1 character, you will use your meat 1 anyway.
Cyberlimbs is trap option, don't even try.
PS. CGL must really really hate cyberlimbs, it get nerf every edition.
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Look, I'm a proponent of "what it SAYS trumps what it MEANS", aka "RAW > RAI", aka "RAW is law!"... but the argument that a cyberlimb gives a cap of 2 to Body and Reaction is flawed. To put it charitably. I'd wager most people would find a less charitable way to label that argument,
Cyberlimbs only have 3 attributes: Strength, Agility, and Armor. Ergo "all physical attributes", when said in the context of Cyberlimbs, is just a way to say "Strength and Agility but not Armor".
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"Cyberlimbs can be used to add to either Agility, Armor, or Strength of the user." This suggests it's not a problem, so unless your GM gives you a hard time things aren't as bad as that, even awaiting clarification.
"Attributes for limbs may vary, but dice pools are always built from the lowest attribute of all the limbs unless the test solely involves that singular location (gamemaster’s discretion)."
Enjoy eternal BOD 2 and REA 2 no matter your meat BOD and REA is
I consider your interpretation to be extremely unlikely, because, like I said, you can't even boost those Attributes. So the intent appears to be that they have Strength 2 and Agility 2, and you use your normal Body and Reaction. I find it unlikely a GM will try to rule-lawyer that section the way you're doing.
Also, if you already made up your mind as to what the intent is, then why are you asking anyway?
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It literally says "Basic limbs are installed with all Physical attributes at 2." How do you think new players and new GMs are going to interpret that?
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Poorly, so I agree that it needs to be clarified. You shouldn't only have indication half a page later that it is meant to be different and needing forum clarification.
Which is zero excuse for deliberately ignoring RAI. We can argue the rules need clarification without being dishonest about them.
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Hello,
New player. Picked up the book at GenCon.
I'm entirely confused by cyberlimbs.
I tend to learn a system by making new characters. I made a troll with a 7 STR, 8 BOD, 4 AGI. I think "it would be cool to have metal arms". So I spend 20,000 from my initial funds to purchase 2 obvious cyber arms. Cool
Now, are these operating at 9 STR / 6 AGI or 2 / 2? The street samurai character has a cyberarm with an AGI of 5 / STR of 10 which suggests the 2/2 are augmentative not replacement. Still pretty confused (amongst other issues I'm finding, I still can't find a place in the book that says you start with 6 essence other than inferring from the non-augmented character archetypes).
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Hello,
New player. Picked up the book at GenCon.
I'm entirely confused by cyberlimbs.
I tend to learn a system by making new characters. I made a troll with a 7 STR, 8 BOD, 4 AGI. I think "it would be cool to have metal arms". So I spend 20,000 from my initial funds to purchase 2 obvious cyber arms. Cool
Now, are these operating at 9 STR / 6 AGI or 2 / 2? The street samurai character has a cyberarm with an AGI of 5 / STR of 10 which suggests the 2/2 are augmentative not replacement. Still pretty confused (amongst other issues I'm finding, I still can't find a place in the book that says you start with 6 essence other than inferring from the non-augmented character archetypes).
Bearing in mind that I haven't read through all the rules, and this is my first edition of Shadowrun, I *think* the arms start at 2/2 base attributes, and then you can pay for increases that equal your attributes (strength & agility) equal to your current strength and agility, plus the augmentation maximum. In this case that would allow you to buy upgrades to raise the arms strength to 11 and agility to 8. If that's not correct, someone with more knowledge will correct it, I'm sure.
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That sounds correct, you do have to watch Capacity. +6 Agi, +9 Strength is 15, which I think is exactly the Capacity of an Obvious Cyberarm.
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Ah, I was conflating the maximum augmented increase of 4 with thinking you could only add 4 attribute increases per attribute. I guess it means you can only increase an attribute 4 values beyond your character's abilities. So presumably for the example troll I describe above, to match his current attributes, he would spend 20K for the obvious limbs, then 2 for AGI, 5 for STR which is another 27k. At which point I can only go above each by 4 (which as Michael mentions is maximum for obvious cyberarm capacity).
My then question is are the archetypes built using starting character rules? The troll street samurai has a *lot* of chrome so it's not clear to me how it paid for all these augments
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One thing I should note: You CAN take a cyberlimb above augmented maximum, the way I read things. However, you only get up to the maximum in bonus. If you then raise your natural later on, you get to use more. E.g. if you had 3 agility and the arm 8, you use it at 7. Once you go to 4, you use it at 8.
As for the samples, haven't run the math yet so no idea. O_O But I know it's very easy for those to have mistakes due to rulechanges during creation process.
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well as it goes for the sample archetypes and how they were built the answer is yes-ish.
They were built prior to some of the rules being finalized so there may be some differences that appear to be illegal but should be pretty close ... or things like the technomancer having a Complex Form that is actually an Echo because it got changed at the last minute (I am talking to you Living Network and Skinlink)
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So, to make sure I understand:
You spend 15,000 on a Obvious Cyberarm (capacity of 15). This starts at 2 STR/2 AGI.
The attribute increase item on the mod chart shows Rating: Rating, Capacity: Rating, and Cost: Rating x 5,000 if I remember correctly.
So if my STR is 6 and I want a punch (or using a weapon in that hand?) to be 8 STR, I would then make the attribute rating 6, making the capacity 6, making the cost 6 x 5,000? But I would still use by base 6 STR for anything else involving a STR check unless it was specifically related to my arm.
So is that count as 6/15 capacity on the arm? The other 9 I could use for AGI or armor other components I assume.
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So, to make sure I understand:
You spend 15,000 on a Obvious Cyberarm (capacity of 15). This starts at 2 STR/2 AGI.
The attribute increase item on the mod chart shows Rating: Rating, Capacity: Rating, and Cost: Rating x 5,000 if I remember correctly.
So if my STR is 6 and I want a punch (or using a weapon in that hand?) to be 8 STR, I would then make the attribute rating 6, making the capacity 6, making the cost 6 x 5,000? But I would still use by base 6 STR for anything else involving a STR check unless it was specifically related to my arm.
So is that count as 6/15 capacity on the arm? The other 9 I could use for AGI or armor other components I assume.
Yes. In fact, if you're doing a test, it's based on the lowest of all limbs. So if you replace both arms and both legs, then you'd up your base attribute for tests. If you don't have all replaced, the upgraded attribute is if you're only using that limb. (CRB p. 288)
Think of it this way. If you're lifting something with just one arm, then it's that arm's STR doing the lifting. If you're lifting with both, but only have one cyberarm, then you have to balance it between the two and only lift as much as with the weaker arm. If you're running and you got cyberlegs, those are the attributes for the test, but you don't have to worry about the arms. But if you're base-climbing, you'll have to use the lowest of all four limbs.
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So, to make sure I understand:
You spend 15,000 on a Obvious Cyberarm (capacity of 15). This starts at 2 STR/2 AGI.
The attribute increase item on the mod chart shows Rating: Rating, Capacity: Rating, and Cost: Rating x 5,000 if I remember correctly.
So if my STR is 6 and I want a punch (or using a weapon in that hand?) to be 8 STR, I would then make the attribute rating 6, making the capacity 6, making the cost 6 x 5,000? But I would still use by base 6 STR for anything else involving a STR check unless it was specifically related to my arm.
So is that count as 6/15 capacity on the arm? The other 9 I could use for AGI or armor other components I assume.
Yes. In fact, if you're doing a test, it's based on the lowest of all limbs. So if you replace both arms and both legs, then you'd up your base attribute for tests. If you don't have all replaced, the upgraded attribute is if you're only using that limb. (CRB p. 288)
Think of it this way. If you're lifting something with just one arm, then it's that arm's STR doing the lifting. If you're lifting with both, but only have one cyberarm, then you have to balance it between the two and only lift as much as with the weaker arm. If you're running and you got cyberlegs, those are the attributes for the test, but you don't have to worry about the arms. But if you're base-climbing, you'll have to use the lowest of all four limbs.
Which is why I would go Muscle Augs.
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Yes. In fact, if you're doing a test, it's based on the lowest of all limbs. So if you replace both arms and both legs, then you'd up your base attribute for tests. If you don't have all replaced, the upgraded attribute is if you're only using that limb. (CRB p. 288)
I like this better than the old "average of all limbs" way, both mechanically (ugh, I don't want to compute averages) and fluff wise (makes sense you're only as strong as your weakest part.) Does the book offer any guidance for scenarios like melee attacks with one cyberlimb, or firing a rifle with only one cyberarm with boosted Agility?
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It's gamemaster's discretion, but if it's purely one-handed, I'd rule on the side of the cyberlimb's attributes.
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Yeah there's no rules for using a "two handed weapon" with one hand, but the GM can surely come up with something.
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Yeah there's no rules for using a "two handed weapon" with one hand, but the GM can surely come up with something.
I'm curious which way people would jump, because I can see both sides. I'd allow the full bonus myself but I'm a fairly generous GM I think.
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Yeah there's no rules for using a "two handed weapon" with one hand, but the GM can surely come up with something.
I'd grab either the non-ambidextrous off-hand penalty (no edge gain/spending), or the non-fitting gear (-2 dicepool modifier) as inspiration for that. Probably the second.