Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: seg_fault on <08-08-19/2217:35>
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Hello,
New to SR in general, so forgive some of the newbish questions:
1) Where is starting essence detailed? I've surmised it's 6 from the archetypes, but I can't seem to find the line of text that says "essence starts at 6"
2) I'm very confused on Step 3 (Select Qualities). Is the expectation that I select 6 that leave me karma-neutral or karma-surpluss? What happens if you have a karma deficit? Does that come directly out of your customization karma, or do you double it (as if you were doing character advancement)?
3) At character creation how much do specializations cost? Is it just 1 point (ie enough to get one rank in a skill?) or is it equal to the level of rank you have +1?
Thanks in advance.
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1. You indeed start with 6 essence.
2. It helps to think of that stage as having selected the qualities, but you pay karma for them in step 4. End of day, you have 50 karma to spend, and you can't have more than 20 additional karma by taking negative qualities.
3. Yes, specializations cost a skill point. You can only have one specialization per skill, and you can't buy expertise.
4. Welcome to Shadowrun!
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Thanks! I've enjoyed the video games immensely so when I heard there was a new edition coming out I jumped on it. It's perhaps a little rougher than I was anticipating, but I think it's got promise.
Just to converge on the qualities discussion, I select up to 6 qualities and the net cost / surplus is done on a 1:1 basis with the karma cost. However if I purchase beyond 6 (which can no longer be negative karma costs) these are paid for on a 2 karma per 1 karma cost basis as if I was purchasing a quality after character creation. Is this correct?
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You can't purchase more than 6 qualities.
Of those 6, you can't have more than 20 points of negative qualities.
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The 2:1 price for buying Qualities is after chargen, so when you're already running. In the entire chargen phase, including Customization, you're still restricted by all chargen-restrictions (so no circumventing a stage 1~3 restriction in stage 4).
As for your questions: They're extremely valid actually! We've brought up several ourselves, and an experienced player may not realise the info is missing but you're absolutely right that things need to be more clear.
If you have any other questions, don't be afraid to ask!
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2. It helps to think of that stage as having selected the qualities, but you pay karma for them in step 4. End of day, you have 50 karma to spend, and you can't have more than 20 additional karma by taking negative qualities.
3. Yes, specializations cost a skill point. You can only have one specialization per skill, and you can't buy expertise.
For point 2, CRB6 states "the net bonus karma" cannot exceed 20 points. Wouldn't that mean that mean you can take 6 qualities (both positive and negative) so long as you don't end up with more than 20 extra Karma?
i.e. A character could take Gearhead and Juryrigger for a total cost of 28 karma, then take Honorbound, Uncouth, Prejudiced, and Bad Rep for a total bonus of 32 karma. The net total bonus karma is only 4.
For point 3, CRB6 state specializations and expertise both cost 5 karma each. so you would need to have at least one rank in a skill to get a specialization for that skill, and you need to be rank 5 in a skill to be able to advance a specialization to and expertise.
i.e. Your Street Sam has one rank in Piloting. He could spend 5 karma to specialize in piloting Ground Craft, but he could not increase that specialization to an expertise. Conversely, if your Street Sam had 5 ranks in Firearms, he could spend 5 karma on a specialization for Automatics, and a further 5 karma to bring that specialization up to an expertise.
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For point 2, CRB6 states "the net bonus karma" cannot exceed 20 points. Wouldn't that mean that mean you can take 6 qualities (both positive and negative) so long as you don't end up with more than 20 extra Karma?
i.e. A character could take Gearhead and Juryrigger for a total cost of 28 karma, then take Honorbound, Uncouth, Prejudiced, and Bad Rep for a total bonus of 32 karma. The net total bonus karma is only 4.
This is my reading as well.
If the intent was that you could not buy more negative qualities than a total of 20 karma then they should have used the word "gross" instead of "net".
For point 3, CRB6 state specializations and expertise both cost 5 karma each. so you would need to have at least one rank in a skill to get a specialization for that skill, and you need to be rank 5 in a skill to be able to advance a specialization to and expertise.
i.e. Your Street Sam has one rank in Piloting. He could spend 5 karma to specialize in piloting Ground Craft, but he could not increase that specialization to an expertise. Conversely, if your Street Sam had 5 ranks in Firearms, he could spend 5 karma on a specialization for Automatics, and a further 5 karma to bring that specialization up to an expertise.
Also correct, but note that during chargen you can only get one specialization per skill and you cannot buy an expertise at all.
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Legal examples:
- 3 PQ of -20 karma, 2 NQ of +10, net bonus -10 karma so 50-10=40 customization
- 2 PQ of -40, 4 NQ of +60, net bonus 20 so 70 customization
- 6 PQ of -50 = 0 customization karma left
Illegal examples:
- 4 PQ and 3 NQ = too many qualities
- 5 PQ of -52 karma = more karma spent than available in customization karma
- 2 PQ of -18 karma and 3 NQ of 40 karma = more than 20 net bonus
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For point 2, CRB6 states "the net bonus karma" cannot exceed 20 points. Wouldn't that mean that mean you can take 6 qualities (both positive and negative) so long as you don't end up with more than 20 extra Karma?
i.e. A character could take Gearhead and Juryrigger for a total cost of 28 karma, then take Honorbound, Uncouth, Prejudiced, and Bad Rep for a total bonus of 32 karma. The net total bonus karma is only 4.
This is my reading as well.
If the intent was that you could not buy more negative qualities than a total of 20 karma then they should have used the word "gross" instead of "net".
I concede that it's ambiguous language.
The intent is either you can have up to a hard maximum of 70 karma for chargen (50 + 20 from negative qualities) or the intent is that you can have ANY number of bonus karma, just so long as you spend enough karma on positive qualities (and the combined total is 6 qualities or less) that the difference between the two expenditures is 20 or less.
So in the former reading, you can't combine Honorbound, Uncouth, Prejudiced and Bad Rep because you'll have a character with 82 karma spent.
I figure the former reading is correct as it's far, far simpler to explain.
But again, granted it could use some syntactic loving to be less supportive of the second reading.
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Legal examples:
- 3 PQ of -20 karma, 2 NQ of +10, net bonus -10 karma so 50-10=40 customization
- 2 PQ of -40, 4 NQ of +60, net bonus 20 so 70 customization
- 6 PQ of -50 = 0 customization karma left
Illegal examples:
- 4 PQ and 3 NQ = too many qualities
- 5 PQ of -52 karma = more karma spent than available in customization karma
- 2 PQ of -18 karma and 3 NQ of 40 karma = more than 20 net bonus
I really like these examples, makes it a lot clearer. While showing every case in all examples may not be beneficial, in something that has syntactically difficult language, examples such as this are extremely useful!
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There was a debate on this elsewhere because indeed it can be confusing and there is no statement on carrying the difference over, we got clarification there. The keywords here are 'bonus', which points at karma from NQ, and 'net' aka the difference between NQs and PQs.
Note that the example does state grabbing negatives for extra karma so carry over is also intended. But yes the section is suffering from change blindness. (We know how it works so don't miss that it's not stated explicit enough.)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujANeiNYHU8
:P
:D
;)
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You can only have one specialization per skill
But this is only at character creation, correct? Afterwards you could have more than one specialization in a skill.
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Actually no. You can upgrade 1 spec to expertise and after that buy a second spec. But that's it. One spec max, one expertise max, per skill.
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Actually no. You can upgrade 1 spec to expertise and after that buy a second spec. But that's it. One spec max, one expertise max, per skill.
Except for Exotic Weapons, where you have to purchase a Specialization for each exotic weapon (type) you want to use. So in theory, you could have one expertise and infinite specializations for exotics.
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Actually no. You can upgrade 1 spec to expertise and after that buy a second spec. But that's it. One spec max, one expertise max, per skill.
Except for Exotic Weapons, where you have to purchase a Specialization for each exotic weapon (type) you want to use. So in theory, you could have one expertise and infinite specializations for exotics.
Actually, you can't choose an expertise for Exotic Weapons. It's the exemption of the skills,
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Actually no. You can upgrade 1 spec to expertise and after that buy a second spec. But that's it. One spec max, one expertise max, per skill.
Except for Exotic Weapons, where you have to purchase a Specialization for each exotic weapon (type) you want to use. So in theory, you could have one expertise and infinite specializations for exotics.
Actually, you can't choose an expertise for Exotic Weapons. It's the exemption of the skills,
I missed that bit in the Exotic Weapons skill. So, while you have to invest skill points into a separate skill for using exotic melee and ranged weapons (completely divorced from Firearms and Close Combat), and you have to spend an extra 5 karma a whack for Specializations, you cannot take an Expertise for the weapons you're forced to already spend extra karma for? Wow...
It seems like this could have been handled far more easily by making exotic weapons require a specialization within Firearms or Close Combat to be able to use them. That would have allowed a number of things:
- Players would stick to two skills instead of three (streamlining).
- It would make it a more meaningful choice to use an exotic weapon because players would have to use one of the two specializations/expertises in the given skill.
- It would also prevent a player from only taking points in the Exotic Weapons skill and running around with monofilament whips, drug guns, and grenade/rocket launchers all the time.
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Using a firethrower is not the same as shooting a gun, so, realistically, it can't be a specialization of a skill that has nothing to do with it. But you can't just let players choose Exotic Weapons and firing off missile launchers, flamethrowers, or using whips because they put a few ranks in the skill, so a specialization is needed for each unique weapon.
As for forcing a specialization on Firearms/Close Combat for an exotic weapon, you'd then be forced to allow them to take an expertise on a specific weapon. Now someone with Firearms 6 can spend 10 karma to get 10 + Agility dice to use a rocket launcher. Pretty cheap cost for a powerful weapon.
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Using a firethrower is not the same as shooting a gun, so, realistically, it can't be a specialization of a skill that has nothing to do with it. But you can't just let players choose Exotic Weapons and firing off missile launchers, flamethrowers, or using whips because they put a few ranks in the skill, so a specialization is needed for each unique weapon.
As for forcing a specialization on Firearms/Close Combat for an exotic weapon, you'd then be forced to allow them to take an expertise on a specific weapon. Now someone with Firearms 6 can spend 10 karma to get 10 + Agility dice to use a rocket launcher. Pretty cheap cost for a powerful weapon.
Writing sheet music isn't the same as a con, but here we are.
So can someone explain how exotic weapon works. Do you have to take the skill multiple times and specialize each time, once and it requires a specialization for each weapon, what? Also did they remove all the almost gun weapons from exotic weapons like the ares squirt, because that's as close to a rifle as a pistol is and pistols and rifles use the same skill.
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Using a firethrower is not the same as shooting a gun, so, realistically, it can't be a specialization of a skill that has nothing to do with it. But you can't just let players choose Exotic Weapons and firing off missile launchers, flamethrowers, or using whips because they put a few ranks in the skill, so a specialization is needed for each unique weapon.
As for forcing a specialization on Firearms/Close Combat for an exotic weapon, you'd then be forced to allow them to take an expertise on a specific weapon. Now someone with Firearms 6 can spend 10 karma to get 10 + Agility dice to use a rocket launcher. Pretty cheap cost for a powerful weapon.
You're already forcing me to take a Specialization to use my Exotic Weapon of Choice (which I will now call my EWoC), so I'll get a +2 dice pool bonus regardless. The difference is that instead of using up a Firearms Specialization/Expertise to to get +2/+3 dice on my single EWoC (which would limit what other firearms I can specialize in), I now have a skill entirely dedicated to my little EWoC village of crazy powerful weapons that are all have +2 dice pool bonuses.
And since dart guns no longer require a license to own, I can open carry a dart pistol/rifle while keeping my monofilament whip safely concealed in my lined coat, right next to my Antioch II grenade launcher and bandolier of grenades.
All 3 of those weapons use the same skill, and would only cost me 15 karma for the three out of unlimited Specializations. And if I wanted to run lean on skill points, I could invest 2 points somewhere else and still have a strong dice pool because of all the +2 dice.
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So can someone explain how exotic weapon works. Do you have to take the skill multiple times and specialize each time, once and it requires a specialization for each weapon, what? Also did they remove all the almost gun weapons from exotic weapons like the ares squirt, because that's as close to a rifle as a pistol is and pistols and rifles use the same skill.
You take ranks in the Exotic Weapons skill as per usual. But in order to use an exotic weapon, you then have to take a Specialization in Exotic Weapons for that weapon (or weapon type, if your GM isn't a dick) for 5 more karma. This also means that EW is the only skill that breaks the one Specialization and one Expertise limit. The trade-off is that while you can take multiple Specializations, you cannot take any Expertises.
Example:
Sam the wired up Street Sam (say, AGI 6[8]) wants to use a grenade launcher. He takes 4 ranks in Exotic Weapons, and then has to spend 5 karma to take the Specialization (Grenade Launchers) to be able to use it effectively. This means he gets a dice pool of 8+4+2=14 dice. He's gonna make it rain (death)!
And at current, there are 10 Exotic Weapons, which could be broken down into 5 Specializations: Whips, Super Squirt, Dart Guns, Grenade Launchers, and Rocket Launchers.
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So can someone explain how exotic weapon works. Do you have to take the skill multiple times and specialize each time, once and it requires a specialization for each weapon, what? Also did they remove all the almost gun weapons from exotic weapons like the ares squirt, because that's as close to a rifle as a pistol is and pistols and rifles use the same skill.
You take ranks in the Exotic Weapons skill as per usual. But in order to use an exotic weapon, you then have to take a Specialization in Exotic Weapons for that weapon (or weapon type, if your GM isn't a dick) for 5 more karma. This also means that EW is the only skill that breaks the one Specialization and one Expertise limit. The trade-off is that while you can take multiple Specializations, you cannot take any Expertises.
Example:
Sam the wired up Street Sam (say, AGI 6[8]) wants to use a grenade launcher. He takes 4 ranks in Exotic Weapons, and then has to spend 5 karma to take the Specialization (Grenade Launchers) to be able to use it effectively. This means he gets a dice pool of 8+4+2=14 dice. He's gonna make it rain (death)!
And if he wants to use mono filament whips also that is just another specialization?
If so I'd of preferred it be a 5 point quality for each exotic weapon group and it ties to the more appropriate combat skill either firearms or close combat. So like flamethrower would be labeled firearms(exotic), so if you take the positive quality exotic weapon(flamethrowers), you can use your firearms skill with flamethrowers. Dart guns might be under athletics, whips under close combat etc. If you want to specialize of get expertise in them go for it, but you first need the positive quality.
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Yes, it's easy to take Exotic Weapons skill and boot it up to 3 to get the specialization bonuses for each EWoC. But you the player has to figure if that worth taking the skill upgrades away from firearms. And sure, dart pistols are legal to carry without a license, but that's because they do 1P damage. Now the toxins you put on the darts are going to probably start at 7(I) availability. And do you think if you're carrying around a dart pistol/rifle, the Law ain't going to check to see if you have illegal substances on the darts?
Also, in specializations for Exotics, don't forget lasers!
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Yes, it's easy to take Exotic Weapons skill and boot it up to 3 to get the specialization bonuses for each EWoC. But you the player has to figure if that worth taking the skill upgrades away from firearms. And sure, dart pistols are legal to carry without a license, but that's because they do 1P damage. Now the toxins you put on the darts are going to probably start at 7(I) availability. And do you think if you're carrying around a dart pistol/rifle, the Law ain't going to check to see if you have illegal substances on the darts?
Also, in specializations for Exotics, don't forget lasers!
Check the errata, chummer. All but 2 of the the toxins (Gamma-Scopolamine and Seven-7) and 2 of the drugs (Bliss and Deepweed) are legal with a license, and only one is outside the ability to get at chargen (Seven-7).
Narcoject is availability 4L and cost 50¥ per dose. Expensive if you get into a protracted firefight, yes, but mostly legal and fairly easy to obtain.
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Ah, you're correct. I haven't gotten that far back in my notes for the book.
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Ah, you're correct. I haven't gotten that far back in my notes for the book.
Its all good, and technically those tables aren't in the book. ::)
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"illegal gear with a rating of 7 or higher" means Gamma-Scopolamine also is illegal in chargen.
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"illegal gear with a rating of 7 or higher" means Gamma-Scopolamine also is illegal in chargen.
You are correct sir. That makes 2 drugs/toxins out of chargen range, while I can still walk around sleep darting people with my Narcoject license on a lanyard around my neck.
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My question involves the cost of purchasing additional Knowledge and Language skills beyond the initial free ones provided by Logic at chargen.
Does it cost 3 Karma for each, as it does during play? Or does it cost 1 Karma each as active skills and attributes do?
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Uhm where do you get 1 karma from exactly?
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My question involves the cost of purchasing additional Knowledge and Language skills beyond the initial free ones provided by Logic at chargen.
p. 66 Step Four. Spend Customization Karma
The points are spent on skill or attribute advancement, as well as additional funds to get those last gear pieces you might have missed or an additional quality (though the limit of six qualities still applies). See Character Advancement (p. 68) for the price of buying these advances.
Does it cost 3 Karma for each, as it does during play?
Each knowledge skill cost 3 Karma for each (as can be found from the Character Advancement Table on p. 68). Knowledge skills don't have levels. Either you have it or you don't.
As for language skills which have levels;
p. 67 Knowledge and Language skills
Characters can buy additional levels of Language skills as if it were an additional Knowledge skill, but only one Native-level Language skill is allowed.
Or does it cost 1 Karma each as active skills and attributes do?
Active skills and Attributes does not cost 1 Karma each(!)
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Or does it cost 1 Karma each as active skills and attributes do?
Active skills and Attributes does not cost 1 Karma each(!)
I think the disconnect may be between the points from the priority table and those bought afterwards. The base stats from the priority table are assigned at a 1:1 ratio, but all skill and attribute points gained through karma are purchased per the costs in the character advancement table (5 x level, per level, for each skill or attribute).
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Active skills and Attributes does not cost 1 Karma each(!)
At character generation and coming from your priority selection, I am pretty sure that they are both bought on a 1:1 ratio. Sorry about using the word Karma, and causing confusion.
Thanks to the Forge-Lord for further clarification. The cost for improving with your 50 Karma is per the advancement chart, gotcha.
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Ah yeah when it comes to points you face a flat cost, with karma (which comes after) you face a rising cost at the same prices as in normal character advancement. Skills are one of the things explicitly mentioned as allowed with karma so knowledge skill should be fund at 3 karma each.
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Can you Initiate during Char Gen?
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Not according to RAW
The points are spent on skill or attribute advancement, as well as additional funds to get those last gear pieces you might have missed or an additional quality