Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Typhus on <08-09-19/1740:38>
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Basics:
Metatype A: Troll 13 adj points
Attributes B: 16 points -set base of 3 in all stats
Resources C: 150k
Use metatype points for +6 Body, +7 Str for max supertroll feel. Final Body 9, Str 10, +1 Unarmed DV
Titanium Bone Lacing (-1.5 Essence, 30k, gain +2 Body, +2 DR, Unarmed is [As Errataed+1], so I think about 5+1+2ish? I hit as hard as a Panther Cannon, or near enough.)
Dermal Plating (-1.2 Essence, 16k, +4 DR; starkers I am at 17 DR before Armor)
Assuming I forego the Trollkini look that is so in this year, I'm going to buy some Full Body Armor. It's 4(L). Total DR with Helmet on is a +7. I'm now at a 24 DR.
I need to cheeselord this further. Starting Karma spends: Edge 2 = 10, Edge 3 = 15 Edge 4 = 20. 5 Karma left. Now I can do some nice Edge tricks even on round 1. Every time you attack me, I'm almost guaranteed at least 1 Edge, naked or not. That lets me pick from anything on the Edge menu when that first attack comes my way.
I still have 102k left. I have a big appetite for cheese tho.
Rating 10 Damage Compensators. 20k, 1 Essence. Effectively Immune to injury mods without the PITA of a Pain Editor. When I feel the damage, its time to leave. Soak roll currently 11 dice for only -3.7 Essence loss. Lots of room for the cyber splat book. 82K left.
OOH! Cyberarms!
"Increases to Armor increase your Defense Ratings at all times—it is part of your overall protection, which is what Defense Rating represents."
Cyberarm (15k, 1 Essence): Str 2 and Agi 2, Armor (?). Who cares. I'll assume 0. Armor isn't an Attribute. +1 CM box too.
Now we get to a question: There are no upper limits on the ratings listed. Since Armor is not illegal, capacity is the only limit if the nuyen holds, which it does. RAW, I can still afford +8 Armor (40k). Armor is not a Physical Attribute. 4 pt rating augcap doesn't apply. I would seem to now have 32 DR. Pointless, yes, but possible, RAW, no? Strangely I can also just sacrifice a foot, but then put 2 Armor on it and get +2 DR. :o
Skills: 16
Firearms 5
Close Combat 6
Athletics 5
Final stats: Physical Condition Monitor has: 8 base +6 (11 B/2, round up) +2 Troll+1 Arm: I can take 17 damage, 10 of it before I feel anything. I hit as hard as a panther cannon (at least with one hand), gain edge against every conceivable physical attack. Think I still have some cash left too for all the foofaraw like, guns, smartlinks, flare comp, phone, lifestyle.
Do I rule the yard? I dunno. I might survive two grenade hits. Maybe. At least 2, maybe 3 panther cannon strikes though.
Before anything else, did I build this right? Any oversights? Obviously he's not an ideal balance, but no physical attack in the book doesn't give him Edge. Cyberarm is obviously optional, since 17 DR buck nekkid is probably plenty to roll with.
Assuming that's all valid purchases, what build do you bring to the table to try to neutralize him before he lays in his panzerfist?
Can you outbuild this for better results?
I am the Mayor of Cheeseville. Throw me out of office.
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13+16 is 29. a attributes c troll is 34 points to spend. Allowing b resources or magic or whatever
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I am the Mayor of Cheeseville. Throw me out of office.
Feta-lity.
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I didn't see what you did with Qualities. STR 10 is possible with Exceptional attribute. But if you do STR 10 that's your one attribute at max value, which means your BOD would have to drop to 8. Given your theme, you're probably going to prefer Exceptional Body instead (assuming you have the Karma for it) and do Bod 10 Str 8.
There's also some qualities that you'd want if you're trying to cheese out the maximum tankiness.
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Did trolls max attributes drop to 9 then? Almost as bad as getting rid of their mental stat limits.
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Did trolls max attributes drop to 9 then? Almost as bad as getting rid of their mental stat limits.
Yes, their max is 9 for both Body and Strength. Of course Exceptional Attribute can still apply.
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My bad, missed the drop of Str to 9 in this edition. Fair point on the max too. Let's assume 9 bod, 8 Str. Didn't buy qualities because I used the Karma on the Edge attribute.
I suppose he could pick up negative qualities to get the 10 Bod, that seems reasonable so far. Still had 5 Karma left.
13+16 is 29. a attributes c troll is 34 points to spend. Allowing b resources or magic or whatever
Why so it is. Good catch. That saves me the Karma on Edge or lets me buff the Rea/Int stats for more dodge. That would make my resources even better and I could buy a Suprathyroid.
I may graduate to McDouble status soon.
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Can you outbuild this for better results?
What about a magician that Control your Actions (for several minutes).
Wonder how many of your teammates you will take down with your auto-cannon punch before they manage to knock you out ;-)
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*Coughs*
*Quietly shifts extra points to Will*
Well, actions is one thing. Does the caster know where any of my teammates are? Or I am just the distraction?
Or I assume my magical cover is waiting Astral space with a pack of spirits to jump the first caster that tries to get me. At least he said he would...
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Yeah you'll need Willpower, or else anyone with 2 edge will do a knockout blow and LOLz you.
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But my helmet!
Oh yeahh....no help there. Cancel their Edge with mine? I start with 4 and get one when they try, that's 5.
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Yeah you'll need Willpower, or else anyone with 2 edge will do a knockout blow and LOLz you.
5 Willpower, 14 Dice for Soak so call it 5 hits on an average Soak test. Need something that does 10DV with net hits? 9 Str, Bone Augmentation, Troll Bumps, 2 levels of Crit strike? Seems doable.
Or twin Amp'd Mana bolts from a Mage with a sustained Increase Reflexes.
Or 15S damage from a Narcojet Injection Arrow should come close. May need a Pepper Punch backer just to be sure though.
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Well, yeah that was my point. 5 Will and you won't get cheapshotted.
1 or 2 Will? Someone can LoL that troll out.
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Oooh wait, scratch all this.
Imaging Scope
When you are using an imaging scope, your target cannot gain Edge by having a higher Defense Rating.
Wireless bonus: The scope’s “line of sight” can be shared, allowing you to share what your scope sees with your team (and yourself if you’re using it to look around a corner).
This maybe even implies due to word order that now the whole team can negate the Mayor's Edge.
Always nice to have your huge purchases entirely offset by a 350 nuyen item.
Now armor actually completely, genuinely, totally does not matter. RIP, Mister Mayor.
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Oooh wait, scratch all this.
Imaging Scope
When you are using an imaging scope, your target cannot gain Edge by having a higher Defense Rating.
Wireless bonus: The scope’s “line of sight” can be shared, allowing you to share what your scope sees with your team (and yourself if you’re using it to look around a corner).
This maybe even implies due to word order that now the whole team can negate the Mayor's Edge.
Always nice to have your huge purchases entirely offset by a 350 nuyen item.
Now armor actually completely, genuinely, totally does not matter. RIP, Mister Mayor.
I asked about the imaging scope, and the response I got was that only the user gets to negate edge. But as you said, its a 350¥ a pop and availability 1 (its actually harder to get a shock pad for a rifle stock (lolz)), so not real hard for any team to all have them.
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And also, for what it's worth, you have to spend a minor action to take aim to use the imaging scope, AND that take aim doesn't give any bonuses other what what the scope's benefit is.
Not everyone is going to have the action economy to throw a take aim before the shot. Particularly if they're cashing in their minors for a 2nd major.
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Game mechanic wise: If you are using a sniper rifle you will have so much AR at long and extreme range that you don't need the scope to deny your target a tactical advantage from his DR.
Real life: Not using a scope (and just use open sights) is hard beyond 100 meters. Very difficult to hit anything pass 200 meters... And at 500+ meters you can't even see what you are aiming at. Taking a shot at Far without an Imaging Scope should probably give you penalty when firing. Taking a shot at Extreme should probably not even be allowed at all except if you Take Aim with an Imaging Scope.
Game Mechanic wise: Vision Magnification give +AR and stack with Imaging Scope
Real life: Scope is using magnification. It doesn't really work to look at a scope with another scope. A scope is really no compatible with vision magnification. Vision Magnification and Imaging Scope should give you the same status effect and they should not be compatible.
Game mechanics wise: Sniper rifles (as well as Auto Cannons, LMGs and Assault Rifles etc) have a really low AR at Melee Range. If you Take Aim at melee range then your low AR at melee range does not matter.
Real Life: It is difficult to use scope closer than 50 meters, at least on moving objects (but possible if you shoot with both eyes open at the same time). At 20 meters there is really no benefit at all at trying to use a scope (it is only in the way). At 0-3 meters (Close) it is for sure impossible to use a scope. Take Aim with a Scope should only be useful at Medium, Far and Extreme range.
See my post on Reddit for details:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/cpiw81/6e_errata_core_book_gathering/ewyq3rj/
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Not everyone is going to have the action economy to throw a take aim before the shot. Particularly if they're cashing in their minors for a 2nd major.
I worry that you might be missing the point that the only argument that exists for armor mattering in this game is now negated by a 350 nuyen scope. Hopefully I am wrong about that. Pretty sure only needing to make a Minor Action spend to acquire it is not an offset either.
But hey. Convince me. I actually want to be wrong here.
Walk me through how this could have made sense from a design stand point to create an item the negates thousands of nuyen and essence loss for the price of a Minor Action?
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I'm not missing the point... I'm more focused on armor being primarily useful at denying edge rather than generating it. And scopes don't stop armor from denying edge gain.
Anyway scopes are in my view besides the point.. even if scopes didn't exist, it'd still be of dubious value to build a character for generating edge when being shot at. You'd need to be so one dimensional to pull it off that your ability to contribute in many runs is dubious.
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The action economy doesn't really matter. You only need to take aim with the scope once. So long as you use an attack action, or I guess take aim again, every turn the bonuses carry over to the next.
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Why not walk us through how much McCheeselord needs one more point of Edge to avoid being shot when he can declare a Dodge minor action and spend his 4 edge to add his Edge to the test and make 6's explode. So the ganger with an image scope, Firearms 2 + Agility 2 has the upper hand?
McCheeselord has 7 Dice Dodging, 11 with Edge. With an imaging scope, he doesn't really need to worry much about damage until, let's say Professional Rating 7 NPCs (Red Samurai with Firearms 7 + Agility 8 ) for to really get some damage through. Now, with an extra edge where they weren't using a scope, you'd be able to spend the 5 Edge to create a Special Effect.
Now I know there's a lot of different ways to play this out. They could also fire full auto with the scope, dropping their AR -6 to get more damage and more hits. So could the runner. In the above example, the Red samurai has 4 minor actions to use, so he could do a bunch of things other than just take aim. But with your McCheeselord build, especially with the Damage Compensators and such, it's going to take a lot to bring you down, scope or no scope.
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Anyway scopes are in my view besides the point.. even if scopes didn't exist, it'd still be of dubious value to build a character for generating edge when being shot at. You'd need to be so one dimensional to pull it off that your ability to contribute in many runs is dubious.
Well, with armor also being of dubious value, I suppose you have a fair point there. High agility is far more useful and versatile. More attack dice and more dodge dice > soak dice.
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Why not walk us through how much McCheeselord needs one more point of Edge to avoid being shot when he can declare a Dodge minor action and spend his 4 edge to add his Edge to the test and make 6's explode.
Saving it for my Panther Punch to better one shot the jerk that shot me? Then I get a 5 point spend on my punch.
No seriously though, Dodging > Soaking. Soaking sucks for a lot of reasons. Good example for sure.
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Cyberlimbs... hmm. Well, if money is no object, and the only rating limit is capacity, then a fully cyber replaced character can get up to +84 DR! Half of that is in the legs, so even a starting character could afford +40 DR on the limbs alone.
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Cyberlimbs... hmm. Well, if money is no object, and the only rating limit is capacity, then a fully cyber replaced character can get up to +84 DR! Half of that is in the legs, so even a starting character could afford +40 DR on the limbs alone.
Sure, let me just get the street doc on the line...
"Yeah, Boffo, I got a client here for ya! He wants a torso with Armor 10, two arms with Armor 15, and two legs with armor 20. Oh, and a helmet, if ya got one. Uh huh... Yeah... Really? Well, okay then."
Sorry, omae. It seems that the availability of those kind of armor attributes is way beyond even the most gamma cyber surgeons. Y'know, since the most rare items are Availability 9, and you're asking for attributes with availability equal to their ratings.
Oh, and if you did find them with the availability, it would be 5.5 essence and 480,000¥.
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Ah, but I bought them at the chargen shop where availability is irrelevant unless an item is specifically illegal. Old man chargen is one whacky fella.
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Ah, but I bought them at the chargen shop where availability is irrelevant unless an item is specifically illegal. Old man chargen is one whacky fella.
Loophole found! You've earned an achievement award!
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-23-2014/ibBolJ.gif)
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Depending on your reading you are capped at +4 armor per limb.
Edit.
Just realized that Imaging Scope use the general rules for Vision Magnification (+2 AR at medium, far and extreme range) in addition to Imaging Scope specific rules (deny target from gaining edge based on DR, must be used with Take Aim action).
p. 260 Imaging Scope
The classic top-mounted scope that includes a micro camera and vision magnification, along with...The Take Aim Minor Action must be used in order to gain the benefits of an imaging scope, though the dice pool bonus from that action is not gained for the first action of use. When you are using an imaging scope, your target cannot gain Edge by having a higher Defense Rating.
p. 275 Vision Magnification
Attack Ratings for Medium, Far, and Extreme ranges are increased by 2, assuming the...
I think that the only change needed here is that you cannot take aim with an imaging scope at close or near distance categories.
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Depending on your reading you are capped at +4 armor per limb.
Edit.
Just realized that Imaging Scope use the general rules for Vision Magnification (+2 AR at medium, far and extreme range) in addition to Imaging Scope specific rules (deny target from gaining edge based on DR, must be used with Take Aim action).
p. 260 Imaging Scope
The classic top-mounted scope that includes a micro camera and vision magnification, along with...The Take Aim Minor Action must be used in order to gain the benefits of an imaging scope, though the dice pool bonus from that action is not gained for the first action of use. When you are using an imaging scope, your target cannot gain Edge by having a higher Defense Rating.
p. 275 Vision Magnification
Attack Ratings for Medium, Far, and Extreme ranges are increased by 2, assuming the...
I think that the only change needed here is that you cannot take aim with an imaging scope at close or near distance categories.
Good spot, but I somehow doubt that this is intentional. There is no page reference from the Imaging Scope to Vision magnification and vice-versa. Given that we are looking at a CGL product, it´s probably yet another case of one hand not knowing what the other is doing. Also, that (additional?) effect of the Scope still doesn´t fit the purpose. I suspect that it was originally conceived under the premise that Sniper Rifles would have lower Attack ratings on extreme ranges. They don´t, so now the effect is only usefull for snipers when "sniping" from 3 Meters afar or when the target is extremely tanky :P
So why not throw that whole kibosh (along with APDS Ammo, because holy shit what were they thinking?!) in the errata/houserule machine and make something out of it that at least remotely resembles the actual purpose of these items?
A humble suggestion:
- Vision Magnification: When used with the Take Aim Action, increase the AP on Medium, Long and Extreme Ranges by 2 in addition to any other effects of the Take Aim Action.
- Imaging Scope: The same as Vision Magnification, plus the wireless effect (sharing feeds with team members)
- APDS Ammo: No reduction of the Damage Code, no change to AR. New Effect: Your target cannot gain Edge by having a higher Defense Rating. (So basically, the previous effect of the Imaging Scope)
Apart from that:
Typhus, I don´t really think that your Cheeselord is that cheesy, maybe apart from the Cyberlimb Armor. It would still be a good idea to put a reasonable cap on Cyberlimb armor, but its not devastatingly, game-breakingly cheesy that there isn´t one. At least not compared to 5th Edition, when Cyberlimb Armor contributed to massive soak pools.
Even when no Edge-Denying gear is used against you (Like the imagining scope, although that effect doesn´t really fit the purpose... ::)), you can get a maximum of 2 Edge per round because something something balancing (https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/960859359391625160/CE3397A7F854D43BA22697051FC7CD4CADA284F4/). In fact, it´s these kind of builds why I don´t like that Limit, because it basically means that a huge portion of the "cheesy" bonus armor mechanically disappears once you reach that limit and continue to recieve fire.