Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Morg on <02-20-11/0121:23>
-
During recent play I assigned two of my PCs negative qualities.
1 Street Samurai decided to get some ear implants get facial reconstruction and picked up a Sperethiel tutor soft in order to hide from Ares so I assinged him the defect of "Elf Poser" the PC felt this was unfair but I felt it would hold the same social stigmata. I explained that they would only have the defect until they stopped pretending to be an elf
2 Hacker/ritualistic murder has a body count of 18 young trolls and orks in order to maintain his spirit pack he made with a grim reaper(running wild) spirit among other sociopathic behavior so I assigned them the "Uncouth" Defect to represent it and after reading it the PC loved it!
Am I being to heavy handed?
-
Now, the only thing is, do you give them Karma for gaining the quality? Since the quality is meant to give a starting character extra build points, I could see giving out some Karma when assigning it to lessen the blow.
-
I'd say no, it's something they "earn" thru roleplay, like new contacts.
-
For number 1, I can see that one, sorta. The way he/she would be treated would be the same as if they had the negative quality. And they ARE trying to look like an elf, even if it's for hiding purposes. Also, since the NQ says that with the surgery they should get by fine without negative impact unless someone discovers their secret. I'd say give it to them, but don't require them to buy it off since they don't have the "mental" side to it.
For number 2, that's a bit harsh. Uncouth is a very very rough NQ. If you don't have at least a rank 1 in a particular social skill you can't even default on it, so that means automatic failure on those social rolls. Add to that the double cost for improving those skills... it's a very harsh NQ.
If you feel the need to curb the player's actions without outright not allowing that behavior (because saying "no" to a player is no fun ;D ) using a NQ isn't a bad way to go but there are better ones to choose. Like the Wanted NQ: after leaving so many bodies behind the Crimson Crush or/and Spikes gangs have taken notice and want to take out whoever is behind the obvious racial attacks on their kind. Or you could have the player make a composure check every now and then after a murder, a failure could result in a negative Mental Disorder due to guilt/stress/etc. Things like Paranoia ("They know it's me! I can see it in their eyes, they know and they're going to kill me!"), Delusions (like seeing the ghostly forms of his victims). If the character doesn't already have it, perhaps Prejudiced NQ. I'd have the player make a Logic + Willpower(2) test every once again a while, failing would bump the level of it up.
But before you do NQs, make sure you're not neglecting your roleplaying elements.
Course, all that said, if your PC LIKED getting the Uncouth NQ then that's fine too. ;D
-
For number 1, I can see that one, sorta. The way he/she would be treated would be the same as if they had the negative quality. And they ARE trying to look like an elf, even if it's for hiding purposes. Also, since the NQ says that with the surgery they should get by fine without negative impact unless someone discovers their secret. I'd say give it to them, but don't require them to buy it off since they don't have the "mental" side to it.
For number 2, that's a bit harsh. Uncouth is a very very rough NQ. If you don't have at least a rank 1 in a particular social skill you can't even default on it, so that means automatic failure on those social rolls. Add to that the double cost for improving those skills... it's a very harsh NQ.
If you feel the need to curb the player's actions without outright not allowing that behavior (because saying "no" to a player is no fun ;D ) using a NQ isn't a bad way to go but there are better ones to choose. Like the Wanted NQ: after leaving so many bodies behind the Crimson Crush or/and Spikes gangs have taken notice and want to take out whoever is behind the obvious racial attacks on their kind. Or you could have the player make a composure check every now and then after a murder, a failure could result in a negative Mental Disorder due to guilt/stress/etc. Things like Paranoia ("They know it's me! I can see it in their eyes, they know and they're going to kill me!"), Delusions (like seeing the ghostly forms of his victims). If the character doesn't already have it, perhaps Prejudiced NQ. I'd have the player make a Logic + Willpower(2) test every once again a while, failing would bump the level of it up.
But before you do NQs, make sure you're not neglecting your roleplaying elements.
Course, all that said, if your PC LIKED getting the Uncouth NQ then that's fine too. ;D
The Player that liked the Uncouth NQ has 5 wanted NQs.
PCs own words "I am trying to become more notorious than Kane!"
The campain spends more time with the daily lives of the runners then it dose on shadowrunning. I spend a lot of time fulfilling the PCs desire to live in this dystopian world they realy like living day to day and the PCs have a contest to see who can live in the nastiest pace with out dieing of Vistas III
@FastJack I give Karma if they got the NQ with Good roleplaying but not because of Poor roleplaying i.e. I have given the party's Mystic Adept that picked up a BTL addiction Karma and if the Sammie wants the Karma for the Poser then it will become permanent, I however am not giving MR Psycopath Karma for his NQ because he is intentionally trying to rack up mental disorders, Wanted and other similer NQ.s he was Ecstatic when I gave him hung out to dry.
-
In the case of a character who actually wants negative qualities, you're just giving the player what he wants. Otherwise, though, it would be heavy-handed. Logical in-game consequences (including notoriety) are better than handing out negative qualities, in most cases. Using it to "limit powergaming" basically translates into "I don't like your play style, so instead of having a mature discussion about it, I'm going to be a passive-aggressive dick and slap a random penalty on your character". It's a bad, bad idea.
For your first example, I wouldn't even consider it giving him a negative quality - it's only a negative quality if you need karma to pay it off, otherwise it is more of a temporary circumstance thing. And that, I have no problem with. Players are going to go into debt, get temporary jobs, acquire enemies, and so on. The only difference is that they don't need to spend Karma to pay off the debt, quit that job, or kill the enemy.
-
I've played a number of games where the pc's would often get negative traits or flaws or whatever the system being used called them, they were only ever given out if the player earned them. Most of the time i would say that you if you do give them out, don't give them karma to go with it you reap what you sow after all.
-
A) I agree with the Elf Poser, and also agree with lifting the NQ once those features are removed. Seems perfectly reasonable.
B) 'Uncouth' seems perfectly reasonable here. The PC in particular is a sociopathic, amoral monster with no desire to fit into society. Sounds perfect.
In neither case would I allow Karma gains for picking up these qualities. Both of them have been earned by the PC's.
A) is for short term gain (which will be removed with the NQ), and
B) is from long-term, continuous, repeated extreme sociopathic behaviour.
I'll allow Karma for in-Game NQ's only if the player got them through:
- Bad Luck
- Single case of Poor Judgement
- Really good campaign point
But no Karma gain if the PC is taking the NQ for:
- Some other gain (in this case, temporary disguise)
- Continuous behaviour in line with the flaw (especially if I've warned that it's coming)
-
I'm only two sessions into my campaign, and one of my players is already well on his way toward earning a free NQ.
Specifically, this character is a Japanese human, and he's been really playing up the racial/ethnic prejudice that's typical of his breed. It's not inappropriate behavior; in fact, there's a lot of historical basis on it, and the player in question happens to be a bit of an otaku, so he's not really doing anything wrong.
In another session or two, if he stays consistent with it, I'm going to be giving him a mid-range Prejudice NQ to reflect this. He won't be getting any free Karma with it, as it's simply reflecting how he's been playing the character -- but it does mean the numbers will come into play, and he'll have to start rolling dice when he wants to avoid confrontations, and he'll have to start taking active steps to get over the bias before I'll allow him to buy it off.
I'm not doing this to penalize him, and I'm going to make sure to talk to him about it when I do it. This player is pretty mature and knows the rules very well, so I don't see any problems arising from it.
Regarding the 'elf poser' thing, I agree with Char. The NQ will only apply as long as the character has the physical mods in place; if he gets himself redesigned to change back, then the NQ will go away. Just point out that you're using the mechanics to reflect first-impression situations, and that he's not going to be stuck with it.
Unless, of course, he starts really taking 'becoming elven' seriously. It can happen.
-
Unless, of course, he starts really taking 'becoming elven' seriously. It can happen.
Heh... you can actually pave the way for this as well. Having the character get "better treatment" as an elf than what he's used to. Not as played up as the Eddie Murphy SNL skit. Just have it that he seems to get better tables at restaurants, people are nicer, businesses go that "extra step".
-
Am I being to heavy handed?
I've gone back and forth with how to apply NQ's and if there should be any compensation for characters who aquire them during gameplay. As to your question, at my gaming table the answer would probably be yes...
In situation #1, going on the lam because you are being actively hunted by a megacorp is probably a bad enough situation as-is. I don't think I would add insult to injury by giving a negative quality, especially one I feel to be as much psychological as it is physical to someone just trying to lay low. However, as others have said, if over time the character accepts this new identity or comes to like it and play off they are an elf for an extended period of time, that is a different story. Definitely something I'd be watching over the long term.
For sutation #2 ugh... While I wouldn't be very happy with the homicidal maniac, I can think of several other ways to deal with the problem than assigning Uncouth. Just because I murder babies doesn't mean I can't try to sweet talk my way into a girls pants at the bar or intimidate an NPC. Hunted / Wanted immediately spring to mind, as well as an enemy (friend/relative of someone slain) or just feel free to assign some "bad karma" (temporary unluck?) shortly after such a murder spree. I would probably need to know more about the character / situation to intelligently comment on it further. (If you need help and want some advice feel free to post or PM ;D)
**I'll also throw in my 2 cents for what I finally came up as my table's solution for PQs and NQs acquired during gameplay. If there is a positive quality I've assigned to a character during gameplay, which is pretty rare, I award the positive quality and then charge them 1 karma every time I award karma until they have paid 1/2 the cost of the quality's Karma cost. Conversely, if I assign a Negative quality I award the player 1 extra Karma every time I give out Karma (usually at the end of an adventure) up to 1/2 the value of the NQ (especially if they do a good job keeping with it in Character.)
-
**I'll also throw in my 2 cents for what I finally came up as my table's solution for PQs and NQs acquired during gameplay. If there is a positive quality I've assigned to a character during gameplay, which is pretty rare, I award the positive quality and then charge them 1 karma every time I award karma until they have paid 1/2 the cost of the quality's Karma cost. Conversely, if I assign a Negative quality I award the player 1 extra Karma every time I give out Karma (usually at the end of an adventure) up to 1/2 the value of the NQ (especially if they do a good job keeping with it in Character.)
Wow :o You are an INCREDIBLY generous GM. PQ's are normally granted for 2xKarma cost (not 1/2 :o)
And if a PC earns the NQ through deliberate methods, I don't aware them any Karma at all....
-
My thoughts about the Elf Poser thing, the quality strikes me more as being for non-elves that desperately wish they were. They hang out at elf bars, eat elven food, read elven poetry, buy elven made toilet paper, etc. People who want to show off their 'elf-ness'.
Check out any anime con for a RL comparison... ::)
If the character got all those implants solely in the context of a disguise, I don't think it would warrant the NQ.
-
I might give them the penalties in certain situations, though. If they had been discovered infiltrating the local chapter of the Ancients, for example.
-
**I'll also throw in my 2 cents for what I finally came up as my table's solution for PQs and NQs acquired during gameplay. If there is a positive quality I've assigned to a character during gameplay, which is pretty rare, I award the positive quality and then charge them 1 karma every time I award karma until they have paid 1/2 the cost of the quality's Karma cost. Conversely, if I assign a Negative quality I award the player 1 extra Karma every time I give out Karma (usually at the end of an adventure) up to 1/2 the value of the NQ (especially if they do a good job keeping with it in Character.)
Wow :o You are an INCREDIBLY generous GM. PQ's are normally granted for 2xKarma cost (not 1/2 :o)
And if a PC earns the NQ through deliberate methods, I don't aware them any Karma at all....
I like to think I'm pretty generous for the most part.... lol. Seriously though, if I am awarding a PQ it is different than a PC purchasing it. If a PC wants to purchase a PQ they go through the normal rules for doing so. The, I guess you could call it, discounted version that you quoted above is something I have awarded a player with, usually for some kind of fluff reason related to a campaign arc or some other amazing circumstance.
The same goes for the NQs. If a PC deliberately starts shooting up with combat drugs and develops an addiction, they get nothing for it. If a PC through story arc, incredibly bad luck, etc. picks one up... that's when they get a small compensation in the grand karma balance act. :)
-
I like to think I'm pretty generous for the most part.... lol. Seriously though, if I am awarding a PQ it is different than a PC purchasing it. If a PC wants to purchase a PQ they go through the normal rules for doing so. The, I guess you could call it, discounted version that you quoted above is something I have awarded a player with, usually for some kind of fluff reason related to a campaign arc or some other amazing circumstance.
The same goes for the NQs. If a PC deliberately starts shooting up with combat drugs and develops an addiction, they get nothing for it. If a PC through story arc, incredibly bad luck, etc. picks one up... that's when they get a small compensation in the grand karma balance act. :)
Just FYI, the "normal rules" for a PC purchasing a PQ are for you (the GM) to decide to award them one & charge them double the BP cost in karma. Nothing wrong with allowing characters to buy PQs (if appropriate to the story/character), of course.
I do like the generosity in compensating a character's bad luck with a little karma, keeps people from getting sour at the table. Not everyone likes a harsh & punishing game all the time.
-
Sometimes a dude is supposed to die.
Sometimes he burns edge.
Sometimes his brush with death has negative consequences.
-
Just FYI, the "normal rules" for a PC purchasing a PQ are for you (the GM) to decide to award them one & charge them double the BP cost in karma. Nothing wrong with allowing characters to buy PQs (if appropriate to the story/character), of course.
I do like the generosity in compensating a character's bad luck with a little karma, keeps people from getting sour at the table. Not everyone likes a harsh & punishing game all the time.
It's all good :) The normal rules tend to need some tweaking in lots of areas for the fun of the whole table.
Like you said, nobody likes always being beat down... but worse than that is players get down right resentful if you make permenant changes to their character without their input. "Awarding" someone a PQ and then charging them 3-5 adventures worth of karma is the kind of thing that will really disgruntle some players. It goes from wanting to reward them with something to almost seeming like a punishment... especially if they had plans for how they were going to advance their characters already.
Now don't get me wrong, I can be a bit rough on the players at time too.... well, a lot of the time. But in the end having fun is the end goal.
@ Kontact - I like to think that "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger." So while yes, negative consequences may have some long term Negative Quality type affects on a person, they are usually strengthened in other ways to make up for it. Besides, I like the Karmic Balance of it all, just like I sometimes (but not always) give a point of edge back to a player that critcally glitches and doesn't spend edge to negate it.
-
Now, I don't fully agree with the rule that positive qualities always need to be bought. There are some that would require a lot of work to acquire, sure -- one of my players is working on gaining the College Education PQ, but she's actually using her downtime to take classes, and it's filtering into her roleplaying. Yes, she's going to have to pay Karma for it, eventually, but this makes sense.
There are other situations where requiring Karma expenditure just doesn't make sense. Let's say, for instance, that the team finds themselves in Los Angeles for a while. They figure, while they're in La-La Land, they might as well play it up a bit. A few bribes and hacks later, they've gotten themselves P2.0 accounts. The face plays it up, coaches the others on how to climb the social-networking ladder, or at least enough to stay on the network in the first place.
Then they get hired for a job, and it turns out to be one of those public-spectacle types. Like chasing down a notorious drug-pusher, and going to town on him with Fichetti Pain Inducers. Or they do something outlandish, like steal a helicopter and land it in front of Grauman's Chinese Theater.
Regardless of how they do it, they do something really public that is clearly shadowrunning. Given LA's fanboyism of the biz, they're instant celebrities. Their Pito scores instantly hit double digits, and their media saturation, even if it's just for a week, borders on becoming a meme.
In a case like this, I'd give the runners the Fame quality, at the "local" level. It would make sense -- but charging them Karma for it wouldn't. They weren't actively seeking the PQ, just doing biz; their location, and the circumstances of the job, put them in the spotlight. They might also lose it if they don't work to make it stick.
-
@ Kontact - I like to think that "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger." So while yes, negative consequences may have some long term Negative Quality type affects on a person, they are usually strengthened in other ways to make up for it. Besides, I like the Karmic Balance of it all, just like I sometimes (but not always) give a point of edge back to a player that critcally glitches and doesn't spend edge to negate it.
That basic statement is indeed the foundation of evolution.
However, that which does not kill you, can also cripple you leaving a permanent disability....
-
However, that which does not kill you, can also cripple you leaving a permanent disability....
Except in the Sixth World where you can chop that broken shit off and get a sweet, sweet metal replacement.
-
A cripple with a better crutch is still a cripple, no? :)
-
However, that which does not kill you, can also cripple you leaving a permanent disability....
Except in the Sixth World where you can chop that broken shit off and get a sweet, sweet metal replacement.
I have a relative working in robotic hand reconstruction.
He'll be the first to say that some of his patients get full hand mobility back (including a few extra tricks, like 720 degree wrist rotation ;D )
He'll also say that far fewer of these patients fully recover....
Not all disabilities are physical.
Not all wounds heal.
Not all coal becomes a diamond.... most is crushed into insignificant dust....
-
True enough.
You know, Charybdis, that got me thinking: do people with cyberlimbs suffer from phantom limb syndrome? If so, I wonder if it would be more or less disturbing knowing there's actually something there in its place.
-
True enough.
You know, Charybdis, that got me thinking: do people with cyberlimbs suffer from phantom limb syndrome? If so, I wonder if it would be more or less disturbing knowing there's actually something there in its place.
I don't believe they do in the tradition sense. Since it's been put out there that Cybereyes can be used by mages, because you paid the essence for them, they do count as your limb. However, from a different perspective, I wouldn't be surprised with some sammies getting "phantom itches" on their cyberarm or something, sensations that don't have any scientific explanation.
-
True enough.
You know, Charybdis, that got me thinking: do people with cyberlimbs suffer from phantom limb syndrome? If so, I wonder if it would be more or less disturbing knowing there's actually something there in its place.
I don't believe they do in the tradition sense. Since it's been put out there that Cybereyes can be used by mages, because you paid the essence for them, they do count as your limb. However, from a different perspective, I wouldn't be surprised with some sammies getting "phantom itches" on their cyberarm or something, sensations that don't have any scientific explanation.
Nerves are tricky things, and current science still can't 100% explain all of the effects such as these.
Today, even the best 'cyber-limb' so to speak, can still give a completely phantom sensation. Sometimes the re-use of the same severed nerves (to provide electric impulses to the artificial limb) can get the brain and limb very confused about what is actually happening.
Have all these problems been solved by 2070+? Who knows?
-
There is a story of someone with a cyberlimb thinking his limb was set in one position, only to look over and see it was somewhere else. His "aura limb" had drifted off the cyberlimb briefly, and only when his attention was brought back did it return to normal.
-
@ Kontact - I like to think that "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger." So while yes, negative consequences may have some long term Negative Quality type affects on a person, they are usually strengthened in other ways to make up for it. Besides, I like the Karmic Balance of it all, just like I sometimes (but not always) give a point of edge back to a player that critcally glitches and doesn't spend edge to negate it.
That basic statement is indeed the foundation of evolution.
However, that which does not kill you, can also cripple you leaving a permanent disability....
Pain is temporary. Joint injuries are forever. (or until you can score some pig-lig.)
It's not too often that a guy needs to use the Hand of God to escape death, but when that happens, it's not meant to be something they can forget too easily.
HoGgin' is reserved for when everything else fails, and you have to throw yourself on the mercy of the GM. "I really like this character. Isn't there something..."
Sometimes it was just bad luck. That's fine. Burning the karma down is penalty enough.
Sometimes it was just poor judgment. That's forgivable. Burning the karma and taking a quality like flashback (uncommon) for instance, to remind them what a screwup they've been, that's generally what's called for.
Sometimes it was plain stupidity. When someone brings it on themselves by ignoring warnings or trying the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, the character should die. Sometimes, though, they'd rather play that same character with a hefty disability. Sometimes that's acceptable.
Neq Quals: Better than Character Death.
-
my char rolled a critical glitch on a toxin resistance test. GM and I agreed a mild allergy against said toxin would be appropriate. no karma
-
I would say it depends on the group and the style of play. If a character stops at every bar to drink himself into a coma, after a while you should start to let him make addiction checks and give him an addiction should he fail. Things like wanted are also logical from time to time. If you go on a killing spree, there should be consequences. Every action has a reaction.
On the other hand I would say to be careful with it. It's not because a character tries novacoke once that he is addicted immediately.
-
I talked with the player in my game about his character getting the Prejudiced NQ. I pointed out to him that he's already playing his character as if he has it, and that I'm primarily using the quality's mechanics for those times where he wants to avoid acting on it. (I used the level where he only needs one hit on the required test, so it won't be hard.)
I also explained that, since I'm actually using this because he's roleplaying it well, that I was going to halve the usual Karma cost to remove it -- but getting over it is something he'd have to play out anyway. If he does work at changing his character's viewpoint, I'll allow him to 'downgrade' the NQ to the next lower level once he's put enough Karma into it to pay the difference. At that point, the required test would pretty much have "Don't glitch" as the threshold.
I'm also giving him a hefty Karma bonus for top-notch RPing. I wanted to make sure he understood that I'm not doing this to penalize him, but that clearing it off will be a roleplaying challenge -- if he even decides to try. Changing that sort of mentality is a pretty clear case of character-growth, and having a Karma cost (even if it's relatively low) makes sense -- that sort of thing draws on the person's experiences.
-
How often has anyone handed out Matrix addiction to a Hacker that always runs in hot mode?