Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Hephaestus on <08-15-19/2209:45>
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In the CRB6, there are now 4 different kinds of Heal spell, 3 Different Armor spells, 4 different kinds of Animate spells, and 4 different Shape spells.
Instead of Heal, Cleansing Heal, Cooling Heal, and Warming Heal, the Heal spell could have a "Remove Status" amp up for 2 drain each to remove a status effect.
Similarly, the Armor, Elemental Armor, and Vehicle Armor (which works differently from normal armor how?) could have all been one spell with an "Elemental" amp up for 1 drain and a "Vehicle" amp up for 2 drain.
And now a spellcaster who wants to animate/shape objects needs to pick a different spell based on the material the object is made out of (metal, plastic, stone, or wood). Again, these could each have been one spell with different DV values for different materials.
How is this in any way streamlined?
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Remember there was supposed to be a custom spell system? Well it's not in, you get this until it does get in.
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They were pretty clear the custom spell system was coming later. But the framework is already there for these spells so if you can figure out the math you can do it on your own, the issues would be time it takes to design spells and cost. But the math is in the spells you just have to break it out. Might be hard to come up with a system for players to make spells, but it looks like one where the GM add spells seems reasonable to figure out.
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Plus, it's going to take a book by itself to explain the custom system.
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I already got 8 concluded basic elements of the custom system based on analysing the spells.
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How is this in any way streamlined?
As others mentioned, spell components are now modular. Based on which modules the spell consist of you will get precise and calculated drain values.
Ranged spell deal stun damage? Add the Deal Physical Damage module and the drain goes up by one. Add the AoE module and the drain go up once again. You can make an unlimited amount of spells and they all are balanced and streamlined since you are basically just adding predefined modules that have a predefined cost associated to it.
This is also how Scania build trucks. They have modules and base variants. The whole truck is made in one line and with very few actual part numbers, but the costumer can have an almost unlimited variety when it comes to specific parts such as sidemembers, gearboxes, engines, lengths, heights, and color schemas.
Streamlining is not so much cutting stuff away... rather think of it as maximizing the work not done.
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How is this in any way streamlined?
As others mentioned, spell components are now modular. Based on which modules the spell consist of you will get precise and calculated drain values.
Ranged spell deal stun damage? Add the Deal Physical Damage module and the drain goes up by one. Add the AoE module and the drain go up once again. You can make an unlimited amount of spells and they all are balanced and streamlined since you are basically just adding predefined modules that have a predefined cost associated to it.
This is also how Scania build trucks. They have modules and base variants. The whole truck is made in one line and with very few actual part numbers, but the costumer can have an almost unlimited variety when it comes to specific parts such as sidemembers, gearboxes, engines, lengths, heights, and color schemas.
Streamlining is not so much cutting stuff away... rather think of it as maximizing the work not done.
Yeah, to be honest, I am kind of excited about this. I like Amp being relatively simple boosts, I also like the idea of spells having ability to be specific. I could see someone making a spell with no heal effect, but removes all conditions.
I have actually already been doing a concept character in my head that has a few hefty touch spells that can wreck, but not incur the extra drain from being ranged or aoe. Thinking Acid, Fire, Electricity combo spell, that on touch sets on fire, applies effect of acid, and shocks. Imagine drain for that will still be high, but probably not as high as a LOS or AOE version. Use case would be, "Oh drek, someone actually got within melee of me! Edge this touch spell and let the good times roll!"
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'm also looking forward to the build-a-spell workshop. I have a lot of ideas...
What I'm confused about is why they wouldn't just consolidate the spells (especially with their self-imposed 300 page limit) and add a couple of specific Amps to give an actual taste of the customization? It would have saved roughly a page in the CRB6, which could have been used to add in all the missing tables, or give a better explanation of vehicles, or give a brief explanation of Amp customization.
And by making them separate spells, it eats up your spell limit to have them all. Does this mean that the spell customization to come will force you to make every tweaked spell a separate one in your list? How fast will players run out of slots with spells that offer similar main effects, but with minor tweaks?
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Even if not done through amps page space wise it should fit one spell with maybe a line or two added to describe the variant options.
Like heal/cure. Heal description. Then say the cure variant costs x more drain and can cure a status effect chosen at the time you learn the spell.
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'm also looking forward to the build-a-spell workshop. I have a lot of ideas...
What I'm confused about is why they wouldn't just consolidate the spells (especially with their self-imposed 300 page limit) and add a couple of specific Amps to give an actual taste of the customization? It would have saved roughly a page in the CRB6, which could have been used to add in all the missing tables, or give a better explanation of vehicles, or give a brief explanation of Amp customization.
And by making them separate spells, it eats up your spell limit to have them all. Does this mean that the spell customization to come will force you to make every tweaked spell a separate one in your list? How fast will players run out of slots with spells that offer similar main effects, but with minor tweaks?
Or they could make one of the Modules 'Adaptive Module', which would allow a spell to have differing affects? They have a really good opportunity to do something cool here, but being CGL.......trying to keep my expectations tamed.
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Or they could make one of the Modules 'Adaptive Module', which would allow a spell to have differing affects? They have a really good opportunity to do something cool here, but being CGL.......trying to keep my expectations tamed.
That was my thought as well. Armor is 4 DV, while Vehicle Armor is 6 DV. They could have made a "Vehicle Sized" amp for 2 DV that let you put Armor on a vehicle.
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'm also looking forward to the build-a-spell workshop. I have a lot of ideas...
What I'm confused about is why they wouldn't just consolidate the spells (especially with their self-imposed 300 page limit) and add a couple of specific Amps to give an actual taste of the customization? It would have saved roughly a page in the CRB6, which could have been used to add in all the missing tables, or give a better explanation of vehicles, or give a brief explanation of Amp customization.
And by making them separate spells, it eats up your spell limit to have them all. Does this mean that the spell customization to come will force you to make every tweaked spell a separate one in your list? How fast will players run out of slots with spells that offer similar main effects, but with minor tweaks?
Or they could make one of the Modules 'Adaptive Module', which would allow a spell to have differing affects? They have a really good opportunity to do something cool here, but being CGL.......trying to keep my expectations tamed.
I prefer it more-specific. Makes mages less OP and picking spells a tactical choice.
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I hate systems where stunning people is easier (less drain) than killing them. No Drama, no conflict, just nice people who stun each other.
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'm also looking forward to the build-a-spell workshop. I have a lot of ideas...
What I'm confused about is why they wouldn't just consolidate the spells (especially with their self-imposed 300 page limit) and add a couple of specific Amps to give an actual taste of the customization? It would have saved roughly a page in the CRB6, which could have been used to add in all the missing tables, or give a better explanation of vehicles, or give a brief explanation of Amp customization.
And by making them separate spells, it eats up your spell limit to have them all. Does this mean that the spell customization to come will force you to make every tweaked spell a separate one in your list? How fast will players run out of slots with spells that offer similar main effects, but with minor tweaks?
Or they could make one of the Modules 'Adaptive Module', which would allow a spell to have differing affects? They have a really good opportunity to do something cool here, but being CGL.......trying to keep my expectations tamed.
I prefer it more-specific. Makes mages less OP and picking spells a tactical choice.
I can see that as well. See value in both, but I tend to lean toward the more specific from a thematic standpoint. By spells being specific, it becomes a form of specialization in a way. Sticking with the heal, you can just heal damage, or you can focus on removing persistent flame damage along with the heal. Maybe the mage wanted to be a fire fighter when they grew up :-p, maybe they're a mage who specializes in fire spells, and they want to make sure their AoE spells don't accidentally set a flame a team mate.
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'm also looking forward to the build-a-spell workshop. I have a lot of ideas...
What I'm confused about is why they wouldn't just consolidate the spells (especially with their self-imposed 300 page limit) and add a couple of specific Amps to give an actual taste of the customization? It would have saved roughly a page in the CRB6, which could have been used to add in all the missing tables, or give a better explanation of vehicles, or give a brief explanation of Amp customization.
And by making them separate spells, it eats up your spell limit to have them all. Does this mean that the spell customization to come will force you to make every tweaked spell a separate one in your list? How fast will players run out of slots with spells that offer similar main effects, but with minor tweaks?
Or they could make one of the Modules 'Adaptive Module', which would allow a spell to have differing affects? They have a really good opportunity to do something cool here, but being CGL.......trying to keep my expectations tamed.
I prefer it more-specific. Makes mages less OP and picking spells a tactical choice.
I can see that as well. See value in both, but I tend to lean toward the more specific from a thematic standpoint. By spells being specific, it becomes a form of specialization in a way. Sticking with the heal, you can just heal damage, or you can focus on removing persistent flame damage along with the heal. Maybe the mage wanted to be a fire fighter when they grew up :-p, maybe they're a mage who specializes in fire spells, and they want to make sure their AoE spells don't accidentally set a flame a team mate.
I also wish spells weren't a Karma thing, but were treated like equipment from a, "This is stuff you spend Nuyen on, your Karma goes towards Skill, Stats, and Initiation." I think it would address a lot of the concern over specificity of spells when it is no longer a Karma sink.
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I hate systems where stunning people is easier (less drain) than killing them. No Drama, no conflict, just nice people who stun each other.
Agreed. Same with non magic attacks where it’s always more effective to use non lethal. Not much of a moral stand in a dystopian world if it’s just easier anyways.
Take narco jet darts. It should require at least as many net hits as the targets armor value before you have a chance for the dart to hit and dose the target.
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I hate systems where stunning people is easier (less drain) than killing them. No Drama, no conflict, just nice people who stun each other.
Agreed. Same with non magic attacks where it’s always more effective to use non lethal. Not much of a moral stand in a dystopian world if it’s just easier anyways.
Take narco jet darts. It should require at least as many net hits as the targets armor value before you have a chance for the dart to hit and dose the target.
Eh, that seems heavy handed. If it gets too out of hand as a tactic to just narco everyone, having an auto-med integration into their armor that injects with stims or counter agents would become more prevalent. If the runners became too reliant on that as a tactic, I really hope they have something else to counter their targets just shrugging off. Alternatively, the hacker could try to hack the auto-med, but that's him taking an action focused on that, rather than trying to brick a gun or returning fire.
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I hate systems where stunning people is easier (less drain) than killing them. No Drama, no conflict, just nice people who stun each other.
Agreed. Same with non magic attacks where it’s always more effective to use non lethal. Not much of a moral stand in a dystopian world if it’s just easier anyways.
Take narco jet darts. It should require at least as many net hits as the targets armor value before you have a chance for the dart to hit and dose the target.
Eh, that seems heavy handed. If it gets too out of hand as a tactic to just narco everyone, having an auto-med integration into their armor that injects with stims or counter agents would become more prevalent. If the runners became too reliant on that as a tactic, I really hope they have something else to counter their targets just shrugging off. Alternatively, the hacker could try to hack the auto-med, but that's him taking an action focused on that, rather than trying to brick a gun or returning fire.
I'd call it balanced as opposed to heavy handed. 15DV to soak vs pistols that are 3 and 4, it kind of needs a limit otherwise the players are doomed. My memory sucks but I think that is how 1e and 2 e did it, you needed more hits than the impact armor or something. But I could be mixing games up with some other game with tranq darts.
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All weapons accept Stick n Shock as a non-lethal alternative.
Stick n Stock deal (weapon base damage -1 DV), potentially making it more risky to use.
Then again dedicated electrical stun weapons seem to do quite a lot of damage:
Stun baton 5S(e) (Telescoping staff 4S)
Shock Gloves 4S(e) (knucks 3P)
Defiance Super Shock 6S(e) (Ruger Redhawk 3P)
Shock cyber weapon 4S(e) (Cyber spurs 3P)
Another consideration could be that while using Less Than Lethal is morally easier, it might also cause you to leave whiteness - which in turn might complicate things later
(unless you go around and execute people after you stunned them, but now we are in a much darker moral zone than just shot them with lethal bullets from the beginning... unless maybe you have a cat mentor).
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'm also looking forward to the build-a-spell workshop. I have a lot of ideas...
What I'm confused about is why they wouldn't just consolidate the spells (especially with their self-imposed 300 page limit) and add a couple of specific Amps to give an actual taste of the customization? It would have saved roughly a page in the CRB6, which could have been used to add in all the missing tables, or give a better explanation of vehicles, or give a brief explanation of Amp customization.
And by making them separate spells, it eats up your spell limit to have them all. Does this mean that the spell customization to come will force you to make every tweaked spell a separate one in your list? How fast will players run out of slots with spells that offer similar main effects, but with minor tweaks?
Or they could make one of the Modules 'Adaptive Module', which would allow a spell to have differing affects? They have a really good opportunity to do something cool here, but being CGL.......trying to keep my expectations tamed.
I prefer it more-specific. Makes mages less OP and picking spells a tactical choice.
Agreed. Spells being more specific and diverse because of the modular framework (and interacting with a list of actual streamlined status effects) is one of the few things that look like a real improvement compared to 5th Edition Magicrun.
In 5th Edition, you had a relatively small list of extremely versatile "Killer App" spells (Levitation, Mind Control, Improved Invisibility, Heal, Levitation...) and a ton of specialized niche spells that were usually just less versatile versions of the "greater" spells. Their only benefit was the decreased Drain, but since there were so many ways to mitigate Drain, no one ever took these "lesser" spells. As a result, the spell lists of many magicians looked very similar.
There are lot of possibilities to make this better: Prerequisites or even spell trees to get to the "greater" versions of spells (Oh boi, that would have pissed of some people ::)), varying the Karma cost so players are less reluctant to pick up a niche spell once in a while, better Drain streamlining... But apparently, the devs chose to make every spell kind of a niche spell. I think that´s a valid approach to diversify the spellbooks.
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All weapons accept Stick n Shock as a non-lethal alternative.
Stick n Stock deal (weapon base damage -1 DV), potentially making it more risky to use.
Bit OT but I've never understood why S'n'S does damage relative to the weapon rather than absolute damage. The latter feels more consistent with other electrical attacks. Stun baton damage doesn't scale with Strength, for example.
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All weapons accept Stick n Shock as a non-lethal alternative.
Stick n Stock deal (weapon base damage -1 DV), potentially making it more risky to use.
Gel Rounds in 6E have no DV modifier, just convert to stun damage. Gel Rounds can knock someone down, Stick and Shock apply the Zapped Status. Gel Rounds are probably the new choice for non-lethal Ammo. Or possibly since Crossbows are now covered by the Athletics skill and Injection Bolts/Arrows work much faster now some players may just pack a back up hand Crossbow loaded with Narco.
On Topic. Shadowrun Mages aren't MMO DPS characters that need to sustain an attack chain for several minutes to take out a raid boss. The difference between Stun and Physical damage spells is typically one point. I should think that the Physical/Stun damage consideration is going to outweigh the occasional extra stun box.
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All weapons accept Stick n Shock as a non-lethal alternative.
Stick n Stock deal (weapon base damage -1 DV), potentially making it more risky to use.
Gel Rounds in 6E have no DV modifier, just convert to stun damage. Gel Rounds can knock someone down, Stick and Shock apply the Zapped Status. Gel Rounds are probably the new choice for non-lethal Ammo. Or possibly since Crossbows are now covered by the Athletics skill and Injection Bolts/Arrows work much faster now some players may just pack a back up hand Crossbow loaded with Narco.
On Topic. Shadowrun Mages aren't MMO DPS characters that need to sustain an attack chain for several minutes to take out a raid boss. The difference between Stun and Physical damage spells is typically one point. I should think that the Physical/Stun damage consideration is going to outweigh the occasional extra stun box.
I think people are getting hung up on Stun...I am much more interested in the modifiers of Touch vs LoS. In beginner box, Cold and Electricity combined into a single touch attack should be a good, "Oh drek" for when someone gets into melee with a mage.
Sum of Negative Status Between the Two:
-6 Initiative
-2 Dice Pool Penalty for 2 Rounds
-Inability to take Sprint Actions
(If Modified DV is > than Armor Rating of target, reduce Armor Rating by 1 permanently, pretty sure this is per Cold Attack)
So, they get moved down the initiative track, less effective at their skills, and now have lower Armor Rating, making it easier for attacks to gain Edge.
Could also do Fire + Electricity:
-2 Initiative Score
-No Sprint Action
-1 Dice Pool
-Incur DV/2 fire damage for DV/2 rounds, requires a major action from you or ally to end early.
Now on the fire, it says on the fire, for DV, the Base DV. I assume this means before Amp. Still, that forces someone to either eat the damage or waste a major action. It also doesn't say if you round up or down for fire damage.
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Rounding up or down is tricky... In SR5 the rule was 'round up unless stated' otherwise so one might assume that to be the default, but rounding up is mentioned more often in 6w than rounding down... :-\
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Rounding up or down is tricky... In SR5 the rule was 'round up unless stated' otherwise so one might assume that to be the default, but rounding up is mentioned more often in 6w than rounding down... :-\
Unless errata'd or explicitly stated elsewhere, I'll assume rounded up, which makes the fire effect even more devastating.
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This actually gives me an idea for a villain. It's been awhile since I researched HMHVV, but from what I recall, there are variants that gain a Magic attribute. So, a Mundane being infected, could become awakened via the infection. Give them spell that is Touch AoE + Fire + Electricity. Send them in as Kamakazis for the big bad. Becomes a game of, "Don't let them get near you, chummer...." Barriers become a wee bit important in this, as well as denying them Sprint Action. This actually ties in well to the other forum thread on limits for Amp Up.
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I guess they will need to clarify base dv as well as I would have assumed after amp but before net hits and heck I bet someone might think after net hits but before soak.
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I guess they will need to clarify base dv as well as I would have assumed after amp but before net hits and heck I bet someone might think after net hits but before soak.
Oh yeah...way too ambiguous, imo. If it's only the base DV of the spell, it's still enough of a nuisance to be valuable. If based on Amped up, pre-soak....becomes terrifying.
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It’s half base damage and I assume you still get to soak it. Throw fireball for 3dv if round up it’s 2 a turn most will soak 1/2 that many will soak all of that. If you go crazy and amp up 6 time for base 9dv taking like 17 drain on your fireball it’s 5 ongoing damage which will be more than a nuisance to everyone who isn’t a troll soak tank. But you did probably KO yourself doing that. A range of 2-5 on a starting mage with a non absurd amp 3. Is 3 crazy damage I don’t see so but people may want to deal with it as opposed to let it ride until the fight is over. 2 I can see people letting it ride a lot.
What will be interesting is how armor mods interact with this. They may make the discussion fairly moot for the pcs or other super equipped character.
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It’s half base damage and I assume you still get to soak it. Throw fireball for 3dv if round up it’s 2 a turn most will soak 1/2 that many will soak all of that. If you go crazy and amp up 6 time for base 9dv taking like 17 drain on your fireball it’s 5 ongoing damage which will be more than a nuisance to everyone who isn’t a troll soak tank. But you did probably KO yourself doing that. A range of 2-5 on a starting mage with a non absurd amp 3. Is 3 crazy damage I don’t see so but people may want to deal with it as opposed to let it ride until the fight is over. 2 I can see people letting it ride a lot.
What will be interesting is how armor mods interact with this. They may make the discussion fairly moot for the pcs or other super equipped character.
My thing is you take the initial damage, +reoccurring damage, so the dice penalty boxes can add up quick. Especially if first fire ball did 3-6 damage, having something that will auto hit and go straight to your body resist check isn't trivial.
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If I throw a Flamestrike at you and score 3 net hits, that's 2P Fire you have to resist every round until you put it out. If I throw a Fireball, the defenders take an area dodge penalty if I read this correctly, meaning I might score more net hits. If I were to manage 5 net hits, which I can easily do if I force a few rerolled dice, then they'd have to resist 3P Fire every round.
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If I throw a Flamestrike at you and score 3 net hits, that's 2P Fire you have to resist every round until you put it out. If I throw a Fireball, the defenders take an area dodge penalty if I read this correctly, meaning I might score more net hits. If I were to manage 5 net hits, which I can easily do if I force a few rerolled dice, then they'd have to resist 3P Fire every round.
The only thing I wish the rules did was provide a tie to DV to threshold to put out. Right now, threshold is (1), so trivial to put out. Little note added for GMs to have option to make it higher threshold if, say, they were covered in oil, but still GM subjective call.