Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: lizardfolk on <08-27-19/1018:36>
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(Sorry, I'm not English speaker. and my English is very poor.)
I like shotgun and buckshot rule.
I searched sixth world rulebook,but I can't see shotgun rule.
This rule is where?
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If havenīt missed anything, there are none. Thereīs only the base Stats of the different Shotguns and the (hilariously bad) Flechette Rounds as an ammo option.
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There's no buckshot/spread rules in SR6. As the Roomsweeper mentions you can load Flechette rounds into shotguns. Better Attack Rating, worse DV.
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I see index. That was written, "shotguns .See Shotguns skill and, 109".
But shotgun rule doesn't exist there.
That index is error?
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Yes, it's on the list to fix in errata. Right now, Shotguns are simply guns that can also handle Flechette ammo.
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Thank you.
Umm...this is bad news...
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Yes, it's on the list to fix in errata. Right now, Shotguns are simply guns that can also handle Flechette ammo.
Can't most guns use flechette ammo? I mean, I didn't see anything in the book that excluded their use in normal firearms.
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Probably?
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The mechanical advantage to using a shotgun is that you get the spray, which is represented in many systems as a template, an ability to hit multiple targets, and/or a bonus to hit/damage based on proximity.
In the current incarnation, they seem like overcharged pistols.
I think they should default to functioning like a burst fire weapon, while only using 1 shell per shot. That would cover things like an adjustable choke (hitting 2 targets with a loose choke, or getting two attacks on one target with a full choke), while still allowing AR to reflect the loss of effectiveness at range.
It would also allow for slug ammo to exist. Make it SS/SA, +3 AR to all statted range intervals and the next interval becomes 3 AR, with no ability to burst fire.
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Weirdly the shotgun pistol AKA the Remington room sweeper might be the best shot gun. It does the most damage and while its AR is less at short range and medium range, well short goes out to 50 meters.(I'm guessing the designers haven't spent much time t the range with pistols) And its AR there is high enough it probably wont grant edge, and the Ar of the other guns is probably not high enough to gain edge. This is under the assumption SA guns can choose to fire 1 shot, absolutely bizarre if they can't. But some guns are SS/SA so maybe they can't. You magically are forced to pull the trigger twice. If you do a SA burst then you might grant edge at short range against some opponents but 6 AR 3 body 4 armor, no edge, 3 body full body armor and helmet is 9 still no edge, it would have to be somebody who mustered a 10 DR so 4 body and great armor cybered up or something.
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Edit: Removed due to no point to it.
Ruling shotguns to be able to do 1 rank higher of burst attacks than their firing mode allows with Flechette might be an option. Maybe the combat book will have explicit options.
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To be fair, the "spray" pattern of a shotgun is often greatly exaggerated and the range is often greatly restricted (in games). Shadowrun was not an exception.
With full choke bore narrowing you roughly get 0.25 meter spread (or less) at 10 meters and 1 meter spread (or less) at 40 meters and with no choke you roughly get ― meter (20 inch) spread (or less) at 10 meters and 1 meter spread (or less) at 20 meters. While in SR5 with a wide spread you could hit 2 targets with a 3 meter spread in the 0-15 meter range and 3 targets with a 6 meter spread in the 16-30 meter range 8)
As long as you aim at center mass you will not really hit more than one target, even if you have a with a pellet spread of 1 meter. Since the pellets are spread over a bigger area the DV would probably decrease, but since the pellet are spread over a bigger area the target should probably get a negative dice pool modifier at evading (SR5) or you would probably get a bonus to Attack Rating (SR6).
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To be fair, the "spray" pattern of a shotgun is often greatly exaggerated and the range is often greatly restricted (in games). Shadowrun was not an exception.
With full choke bore narrowing you roughly get 0.25 meter spread (or less) at 10 meters and 1 meter spread (or less) at 40 meters and with no choke you roughly get ― meter (20 inch) spread (or less) at 10 meters and 1 meter spread (or less) at 20 meters. While in SR5 with a wide spread you could hit 2 targets with a 3 meter spread in the 0-15 meter range and 3 targets with a 6 meter spread in the 16-30 meter range 8)
As long as you aim at center mass you will not really hit more than one target, even if you have a with a pellet spread of 1 meter. Since the pellets are spread over a bigger area the DV would probably decrease, but since the pellet are spread over a bigger area the target should probably get a negative dice pool modifier at evading (SR5) or you would probably get a bonus to Attack Rating (SR6).
And the TL;DR is:
For pellet rules, see Flechette Ammo (pg 262).
As an aside/opinion piece here.... I rather like that flechettes (and shotgun pellets!) are dangerous in this edition. They very much were not so in 5e.
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To be fair, the "spray" pattern of a shotgun is often greatly exaggerated and the range is often greatly restricted (in games). Shadowrun was not an exception.
With full choke bore narrowing you roughly get 0.25 meter spread (or less) at 10 meters and 1 meter spread (or less) at 40 meters and with no choke you roughly get ― meter (20 inch) spread (or less) at 10 meters and 1 meter spread (or less) at 20 meters. While in SR5 with a wide spread you could hit 2 targets with a 3 meter spread in the 0-15 meter range and 3 targets with a 6 meter spread in the 16-30 meter range 8)
As long as you aim at center mass you will not really hit more than one target, even if you have a with a pellet spread of 1 meter. Since the pellets are spread over a bigger area the DV would probably decrease, but since the pellet are spread over a bigger area the target should probably get a negative dice pool modifier at evading (SR5) or you would probably get a bonus to Attack Rating (SR6).
And the TL;DR is:
For pellet rules, see Flechette Ammo (pg 262).
As an aside/opinion piece here.... I rather like that flechettes (and shotgun pellets!) are dangerous in this edition. They very much were not so in 5e.
The fluff for flechette ammo is there, but the mechanical support for said fluff is not. +1 AR for -1 DV with no spray or spread does not accurately represent a tight cone of shrapnel.
Another simple fix would be to have shotguns using shot be able to have the same effect as SA/BF without needing to expend as much ammo. SA could be one shell instead of two, and BF could be two shells instead of four. Same benefits just with less ammo expenditure.
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Regardless, the rules for Flechette dovetail perfectly with what Xenon was saying.
Obviously, not everyone's gonna see things exactly the same way about how rules otherwise should have been.
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And the TL;DR is:
For pellet rules, see Flechette Ammo (pg 262).
As an aside/opinion piece here.... I rather like that flechettes (and shotgun pellets!) are dangerous in this edition. They very much were not so in 5e.
I guess it depends on how you were using them in SR5. My favorite shooter builds used shotguns (typically the Mossberg or Enfield) and flechettes. Want to see a dodgy PhysAd cry? Mention "full auto burst" and "wide spread" in a single attack action.
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Regardless, the rules for Flechette dovetail perfectly with what Xenon was saying.
Obviously, not everyone's gonna see things exactly the same way about how rules otherwise should have been.
They donīt. With the current rules, Flechettes are just a shittier version of APDS. Which is bad because
- APDS are already a bad option thatīs not really doing what itīs supposed to.
- APDS is vastly different from (Shotgun) Flechettes, so Flechettes having practically the same effect isnīt fitting.[1]
This doesnīt mean that the Shotgun Spread rules from 5th Edition should have a comeback, BUT it should definetely stay up for discussion if the current rules and stats for flechettes (and linked to this, Shotguns in general) really fit their purpose. F.i. an Errata [2] or an updated version in the Combat supplement [3] could keep in mind that the effectiveness of Shotgun Shots usually peak at certain range before the scatter and wind resistance reduces their effectiveness. This could be easily translated into game mechanics by modifiying AR and DV differently over the different range categories. This would give Buckshot Flechettes a true mechanical purpose without going back to muzzle spread horseplay. Shotguns only have 3 range categories, so itīs really not that much "paperwork" either.
[1] I mean, one could argue against argument this by acknowledging that the rules for APDS donīt really fit their purpose as well... ::)
[2] *Gasp!* Mechanical improvements to the holy RAW via Errata? Thatīs not what we donīt pay these folks for! >:(
[3] *Double-Gasp!* Mechanical changes to the Core Rules in a Supplement? We only do that if itīs absolutely necessary! (https://www.amazon.de/Shadowrun-Rigger-5-0/dp/1941582990)
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Regardless, the rules for Flechette dovetail perfectly with what Xenon was saying.
Obviously, not everyone's gonna see things exactly the same way about how rules otherwise should have been.
I agree to a point. They do jive with what Xenon said, for flechette rounds designed for normal weapons.
In Real Life...
Some .44 magnums can chamber .410 shotgun shells, which would fit with that line of logic as .410 is one of the smallest commercially available size of shot. But, standard 00 buck shot fires 9 .33" steel balls in a tight spread. That's roughly the equivalent of nine 9mm bullets fired simultaneously.
SR6 Game Mechanics...
Take the 00 buck example above. Nine pellets would be just over two BF bursts from an SMG. With the current rules for BF, that would put a +2 DV on a 3 DV gun twice over at -4 AR.
And there is nothing stating I cannot take flechette ammo for any other gun, so why would I bother using a gun that:
- Is no more concealable than other options?
- Is no more easily available than other guns?
- Can't hit long ranges?
- Can't go full auto?
Even the rules for shotguns don't take into account their intended purpose as lead spreaders:
pg. 255
Shotguns
The stats for these shotguns are for normal slug rounds. Shotguns can take top, barrel, and underbarrel accessories.
Literally the ONLY reason for taking a shotgun is that they are cheaper than ARs. And even then, they lack a ton of utility that ARs (and one or two of the SMGs) bring to the table.
In 6th edition, shotguns are just cheap, crappy, oversized rifle wannabes with nothing to set them apart or make them useful.
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In 6th edition, shotguns are just cheap, crappy, oversized rifle wannabes with nothing to set them apart or make them useful.
Agreed. And the main reason for this is that Flechettes is one of the 3 items in the gun section that just donīt work out (the other 2 are APDS and Imaging Scopes. Iīm not hating here, most of the other gun mods and ammo option work just fine - in fact, thatīs why these 3 stick out that much).
Ok, incoming wall of text. Iīll try to put in some TL;DRs in boldface.
For APDS and Imaging scopes, there are already many little (sub-)discussions quelling in different threads. On the matter APDS, Iīd really like to point out Xenonīs musings in the "Combat in SR6?" (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29520.270) thread (besides my two cents about the matter, of course 8)). I think that an update/errata like this would really help to bring back some verisimilitude to APDS Ammo and other items like this. I understand that the Errata process will focus first on closing gaps and fixing nonfunctional rules due to "change blindness" and editing blunders, but if "broken" stuff like Impaired Attribute cheese or Analytical Mind is up for errata, so should be stuff thatīs not really "broken" in the sense of "game-breaking", but because it offers no real value and/or not being able to do what itīs expected to do.
TL;DR: Itīs not a shame if some mechanics and items donīt really work as supposed, but they should be up for errata discussions and improvement.
So, what is Flechette "supposed" to do?
Unlike APDS (which has the word "armor-piercing" right in its name), thatīs not so easy to pinpoint. We first have to ask ourselfes where the name comes from, why there were additional rules for "Flechette Damage" for at least 2 previous Editions and why there are other weapons besides shotguns that talk about Flechettes. AFAIK, it was originally a little "nod" to Gibsonīs Neuromancer trilogy. One of the characters, the "Razorgirl" Molly uses a flechette pistol, not unlike the Ares Viper Slivergun. Thereīs also one in Snow Crash. So yeah, flechettes (crossaint for "little arrow") are just a staple of the Cyberpunk genre - thatīs why there are additional rules for them. However, these weapons have very little to do with shotguns. They are modernized versions of Needleguns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needlegun). TBH, the description of the Ares Viper Slivergun handles this ambiguity quite well by making clear that the Ammo just "count as flechette ammunition and are bought as such, but they arent interchangeable with any other flechette weapon." Mechanically, this means that you have to pay a bit more for your Ammo and canīt load the gun with other Ammo types, which is a worthy price given the stats of the Slivergun.
TL;DR: Flechette rules are part of SR for Cyberpunk nostalgia reasons, and you should differentiate between Needleguns and Shotgun flechettes.
So, what about Shotgun Flechettes? If you look at the present to find a "realistic" approach, youīll run into a problem: Thereīs a shitton of Shotgun rounds, and many of them use the word "flechette" somewhere. Thereīs a whole scene of Shotgun nuts out there who come up with the craziest stuff you can put into a shell and shoot at stuff, animals and people. And slug rounds can be Flechettes as well: Instead of multiple small darts, thereīs just one medium-sized Dart. So, what about Shadowrun itself? In previous Editions, Flechettes were promoted as a kind of futuristically improved Buckshot round. They had spread rules (somewhat unrealistic, though...) and they had increased damage at the cost of increasing your oppositionīs armor as well. They also had reduced effectiveness at longer ranges - in fact, there were 2 rows in the range table for Shotguns loaded with Slugs and for Shotguns loaded with Flechettes. So: Closer is better, unless you want to use the spread to hit more enemies or make it harder to dodge. Itīs also interesting to have a look at the Stats of the Ares Viper Slivergun in 6th: It has the same AR as the Predator, but stronger in Close Combat and weaker on the other 2 ranges. While I wouldnīt use the Slivergun as a 100% model for Shotgun Flechettes (see above), this hints at flechette darts being stronger on short ranges, but more affected by range. Another effect of Flechettes in previous Editions was the increased Armor of the target. I could go on a tanget here on why negative armor penetration didnīt really represent that issue very well mechanically, but the intent was clear: Flechette is bad against Armor (Which is one reason why it should at least not have the same effect as APDS). Interestingly, the armor-increasing effect was also applied to Frag Grenades, whose damage was marked as (fl). Soooo, Iīd say thatīs some stuff we can work with!
TL;DR: Judging from SR5 and partially SR6, (Shotgun) Flechettes are supposed to be: Better on close ranges and worse on higher ranges, better against low-armored targets than high-armored targets and possibly harder to dodge because of the spread
I donīt think that all 3 of these Criteriums should necissarily be represented mechanically, but one thing is clear as day: The current RAW does not very well at representing any of them. And apart from the verisimilitude , the tradoff between 1 Damage and 1 AR really isnīt worth it: Itīs the same problem as with APDS, but this time, the window for getting a net advantage out of your ammo choice instead of just losing 1 Point of Damage (2 if you keep in mind that you could have used ExMun instead...) is even smaller.
So, what could be done instead? Hereīs loose bundle of ideas; Some can be combined, some could possibly work as a standalone solution as well:
- Different Increases/Decreases of the AR at different Ranges, f.i. +2 on close and near range, -2 on the rest. (Similar to the Slivergun, but with more "punch" over the first 50 Meters. This would strengthen the idea of Shotguns serving as close-to-near range firearms)
- Different Increases/Decreases of the DV at different Ranges, f.i. +1 in Close range, no change in near range, -1 on Medium ranges... (see above. Note that this might also fit as an additional rule for the Ares Viper SG and other "Needlers")
- Dice Pool Modifiers or AR changes on Near and Medium Ranges in favour of the shooter, due to increased spread. Kinda goes against the first two bullet point, but itīs worth considering. However, it should be combined with other effects that favour close ranges more, at least when it comes to raw damage.
- Weaker against armor/Stronger against unarmored
- F.i., increase damage by 1 if the modified Damage Code is higher than the targetīs armor rating, but decrease damage by 1 if the modified Damage Code.
- F.i., increase damage by 1 if the AR/DR comparison would give you an Edge, but decrease it if the target would get an Edge.
- F.i., Increase damage by 1-2, but the target rolls with the full DR instead of body alone (A similar effect might also be added to the Ares Viper SG or even Frag Grenades!)
- Something with wild Dice, maybe? :P
- Combinations/"remixes" of the ideas above
Last point: Remember the "scene of Shotgun nuts" I mentioned earlier? Have a look at the stuff thatīs cooked up and sold as Shotgun Rounds, itīs crazy! Thereīs a type of round that shoots flaming Magnesium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_breath_(ammunition))! "Ball and Chain"-Rounds for cutting down bushes and small trees! Thereīs specialized Slugs for different purposes (I believe there was some kind of "Door-busting" Round in 5th Edition as well?). Hell, with the new system of status effects, even traditional Buck/Birdshot rounds - which existed in the previous Editions, but only as strictly worse versions of Flechette rounds - can be made worthwhile. Burn them, Blind them, Hobble them, Pepper them up! Apart from fixing Flechettes, this is the direction Shotguns should go in the future to keep distinctive use among the other shooters: A vast array of crazy Ammo types that inflict status effects or have other special purposes ;D
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Agreed. And the main reason for this is that Flechettes is one of the 3 items in the gun section that just donīt work out (the other 2 are APDS and Imaging Scopes. Iīm not hating here, most of the other gun mods and ammo option work just fine - in fact, thatīs why these 3 stick out that much).
Ok, incoming wall of text. Iīll try to put in some TL;DRs in boldface.
+1
Aside from those custom loads, there are companies mass producing both taser rounds and fragmentation grenade rounds for standard open choke shotguns.
I think the watering-down of weapon stats in this edition has forced the developers to try and fit unique guns like shotguns into a very flat distribution of stats, and it shows. Like I said before, the only benefit of a shotgun is that its cheap, and in a game where players can start with 450,000 nuyen for gear and 'ware, being cheap is a useless quality.
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Since everyone and their mother wear armor in the future shotguns are by default loaded with slugs... which behave much like regular firearms anyway.
Literally the ONLY reason for taking a shotgun is that they are...
In SR6 you are often allowed to pick things (like magical tradition, metatype, weapon, armor etc etc) based on style rather than pure mechanical advantages. If shotgun fit your character, then you should probably get a shotgun....
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Literally the ONLY reason for taking a shotgun is that they are cheaper than ARs. And even then, they lack a ton of utility that ARs (and one or two of the SMGs) bring to the table.
And Dual Wielding Remington Roomsweepers is Awesome. Don't forget that part.
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And Dual Wielding Remington Roomsweepers is Awesome. Don't forget that part.
Dual wielding = cool
Sawn-off shotguns = cool
::counts on fingers::
Ive done the maths, story checks out everyone!
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Can you now that they have been classed as shotguns instead of pistols. The rules on off hand and multiple attacks is sparse. Like I see no restrictions other than no edge in your off hand, so go ahead and dual wield panther assault cannons. But I may be missing a rule somewhere.
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I'd say it is pretty obvious that you hold the roomsweeper with one hand. There is even a picture of it.....
I'd also say it is pretty obvious that you hold the Panther XXL with two hands. There is even a picture of this one too.....
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I dont find it obvious from the roomsweepers picture how many hands are used to shoot it. It looks like a pretty big honking gun with a large under barrel grip area.
And even if it were obvious there are dozens of guns without pictures more without than with. Which sub machine guns are more 2 handed in appearance than one handed since we dont have the picture. Some I may know from past editions but others I dont. Random decisions based on my feeling doesnt seem all that helpful for my players.
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All firearms you can dual wield: all hold outs, all light pistols, all heavy pistols, all sub machine guns and the "heavy pistol" roomsweeper shotgun. There you go.
If you are ambidextrous then it is probably better to dual wield a BF firearm (for wide burst anticipation) and a melee weapon (for wrest).
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If you're a lead farmer, you can even dual wield LMGs...
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Since everyone and their mother wear armor in the future shotguns are by default loaded with slugs... which behave much like regular firearms anyway.
In SR6 you are often allowed to pick things (like magical tradition, metatype, weapon, armor etc etc) based on style rather than pure mechanical advantages. If shotgun fit your character, then you should probably get a shotgun....
There is a reason that Distinctive Style is a negative quality. It can get you killed, just like bringing a crap gun to a gun fight.
And to be fair, I'm not saying that shotguns need to be god cannons, but if you are going to separate them into their own category, you should do them justice and give them a mechanical reason to exist in the game.
Right now they have a two sentence blurb that hand-waves away the use of shot, and other inconsistent rules across the guns themselves:
- Defiance T-250 has two versions, with the stats for the short-barrel version tucked into the description instead of the weapon table. And somehow, the short-barrel version has the same ammo capacity...
- Mossberg CMDT has 10-round clips or 24-round drums, but no cost listed for a drum.
- PJSS Model 55 has rules for firing both barrels as a short burst (of course with Not Enough Rounds tacked on).
- Remington Roomsweeper calls out that it is double-barreled, but has no rules for firing both barrels. And calls out that you can use heavy pistol ammo in it inaccurately, but gives no rules for doing this.
There are 4 shotguns listed, incomplete/inconsistent rules for all 4, and no costs for ammo listed (not in the book, not in the hot-fix, and not in the updated PDF). This is an unfinished section of the CRB that needs review and fixing, not a stylistic choice that people are whining about.
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There is a reason that Distinctive Style is a negative quality. It can get you killed, just like bringing a crap gun to a gun fight.
There is a difference between Distinctive Style and playing Dwarf or Ork or Human because it fits the style of your character concept rather than behind the scenes game mechanics, or picking shamanistic magician or hermetic magician because it fits the style of your character concept rather than behind the scenes game mechanics or that you buy a shotgun, heavy pistol or SMG because it fits the style of your character concept rather than behind the scenes game mechanics.
...do them justice and give them a mechanical reason to exist in the game.
First of all they are relatively cheap (which do matter if you for example are awakened or emerged and start the game with resource priority E).
The advantage of the defiance T-250 is that it clear glitch jams with a Minor Action. Good if your dice pool is small enough that risk of glitch is relatively high.
The advantage of the PJSS Model 55 is that it have the highest AR of all weapons in the 3-50 meter range category (shared only by the Praetor SMG, but compared to Praetor PJSS still have higher AR at the 51-250 meter range).
The advantage of the roomsweeper is that it is deal the most damage of all other heavy pistols, including Ruger Super Warhawk.
- Defiance T-250 has two versions, with the stats for the short-barrel version tucked into the description instead of the weapon table. And somehow, the short-barrel version has the same ammo capacity...
What does the barrel length have to do with ammo capacity?
The short barrel version in SR5 had the same ammo capacity, easier to conceal, shorter range and less DV (it was also all described in the body text of the weapon).
In SR6 it also have the same ammo capacity, it also easier to conceal, it also have reduced range (increased close AR and decreased near and medium AR), and it also have decreased DV - very similar to its SR5 counterpart I'd say.
- Mossberg CMDT has 10-round clips or 24-round drums, but no cost listed for a drum.
IIRC SR5 does not have specific listed prices for drums (or belts), either ;)
I think the intent is that you just use the Spare Clip cost and fill it with ammo.
- PJSS Model 55 has rules for firing both barrels as a short burst (of course with Not Enough Rounds tacked on).
Yes, this is a copy pasta mistake from SR5. In SR6, SA already mean that you fire twice and a SA "burst" is only 2 slugs anyways. The "BF (short)" listing should be removed.
- Remington Roomsweeper calls out that it is double-barreled, but has no rules for firing both barrels. And calls out that you can use heavy pistol ammo in it inaccurately, but gives no rules for doing this.
It is correctly listed as SA mode, which in SR6 mean you fire twice in one attack. It fired heavy pistol ammo (and used heavy pistol ranges) in SR5 as well.
Heavy pistol slug ammo is what is used in the table. If you load it with flechette then you reduce DV by 1 and increase AR by 1 across all three range categories.
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There is a reason that Distinctive Style is a negative quality. It can get you killed, just like bringing a crap gun to a gun fight.
There is a difference between Distinctive Style and playing Dwarf or Ork or Human because it fits the style of your character concept rather than behind the scenes game mechanics, or picking shamanistic magician or hermetic magician because it fits the style of your character concept rather than behind the scenes game mechanics or that you buy a shotgun, heavy pistol or SMG because it fits the style of your character concept rather than behind the scenes game mechanics.
I would posit that making shotguns less attractive options is more detrimental to style than you think. A player can make whatever style choices they want, but they should not be punished for them.
...do them justice and give them a mechanical reason to exist in the game.
First of all they are relatively cheap (which do matter if you for example are awakened or emerged and start the game with resource priority E).
The advantage of the defiance T-250 is that it clear glitch jams with a Minor Action. Good if your dice pool is small enough that risk of glitch is relatively high.
The advantage of the PJSS Model 55 is that it have the highest AR of all weapons in the 3-50 meter range category (shared only by the Praetor SMG, but compared to Praetor PJSS still have higher AR at the 51-250 meter range).
The advantage of the roomsweeper is that it is deal the most damage of all other heavy pistols, including Ruger Super Warhawk.
If you're awakened or emerged, you are probably not gearing up for frontline combat duty, which is the only place shotguns work. I have never played with anyone running a mage/shaman/techno that carried anything more than an SMG, because they are either wearing them out to not get geeked first, or trying to conceal them so they have a backup in case they actually have to use them. Both are style choices, and both have mechanical reasons that they work.
I do like the ability to clear jams as a minor action. That is a solid perk to the T-250.
The PJS has the highest AR in close range (12). Yay! So long as nobody wears an Armor Jacket and has BOD 4 or higher, you get an Edge!
And if the Roomsweeper is still a heavy pistol, then put it with the heavy pistols. Don't call it out as a shotgun and then make all the rules the same as heavy pistols.
- Defiance T-250 has two versions, with the stats for the short-barrel version tucked into the description instead of the weapon table. And somehow, the short-barrel version has the same ammo capacity...
What does the barrel length have to do with ammo capacity?
The short barrel version in SR5 had the same ammo capacity, easier to conceal, shorter range and less DV (it was also all described in the body text of the weapon).
In SR6 it also have the same ammo capacity, it also easier to conceal, it also have reduced range (increased close AR and decreased near and medium AR), and it also have decreased DV - very similar to its SR5 counterpart I'd say.
Five rounds in a magazine would stick out about 12"-15", not including the grip, ammo feed, and barrel overhang. How are you fitting that into the profile of a light pistol?
- Mossberg CMDT has 10-round clips or 24-round drums, but no cost listed for a drum.
IIRC SR5 does not have specific listed prices for drums (or belts), either ;)
I think the intent is that you just use the Spare Clip cost and fill it with ammo.
Okay then. Mechanically different, but handwaved away.
- PJSS Model 55 has rules for firing both barrels as a short burst (of course with Not Enough Rounds tacked on).
Yes, this is a copy pasta mistake from SR5. In SR6, SA already mean that you fire twice and a SA "burst" is only 2 slugs anyways. The "BF (short)" listing should be removed.
So firing slugs from both barrels of a double-barrel gun simultaneously can hit two different targets? That's just silly.
- Remington Roomsweeper calls out that it is double-barreled, but has no rules for firing both barrels. And calls out that you can use heavy pistol ammo in it inaccurately, but gives no rules for doing this.
It is correctly listed as SA mode, which in SR6 mean you fire twice in one attack. It fired heavy pistol ammo (and used heavy pistol ranges) in SR5 as well.
Heavy pistol slug ammo is what is used in the table. If you load it with flechette then you reduce DV by 1 and increase AR by 1 across all three range categories.
So do all shotgun use heavy pistol rounds?
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I would posit that making shotguns less attractive options is more detrimental to style than you think. A player can make whatever style choices they want, but they should not be punished for them.
Not sure I follow. Shotguns deal between 4P to 5P and are great at near range (in the case of PJSS Model 55 it is even best in slot) but they also work fine in both close range and medium range (which is basically anything between 0 and 250 meters).
Whats so bad about them...??
If you're awakened or emerged, you are probably not ...
I've seen magicians with shotguns :) Your players probably used SMGs (or machine pistols) because they picked the automatic weapon skill (which was arguably quite a lot better than the alternatives in the previous edition since it gave you a lot more options)
The PJS has the highest AR in close range (12). Yay! So long as nobody wears an Armor Jacket and has BOD 4 or higher, you get an Edge!
It is an advantage and it might very well be a reason for someone to pick it up.
Many weapon in the tables are not best in slot in any single category ;-)
For example, why pick up any of the Colt Cobra TZ series when you could pick up a FN P93 Praetor?
How are you fitting that into the profile of a light pistol?
Why are you assuming that a shotgun with a slightly shorter barrel suddenly get a profile of a light pistol....??
So firing slugs from both barrels of a double-barrel gun simultaneously can hit two different targets?
Where do you get the idea that you are allowed to hit two different targets with SA mode?
SR6 p. 109 SA
You fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger pulls. Decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon by 2 and increase damage by 1.
There is no mentioning about hitting multiple targets as far as I can see.
Remington Roomsweeper...
...It fired heavy pistol ammo (and used heavy pistol ranges) in SR5 as well...Heavy pistol slug ammo is what is used in the table.
So do all shotgun use heavy pistol rounds?
Why are you assuming that all shotguns fire heavy pistol ammo?
I said that the Remington Roomsweeper does (because that is what the book says).
SR6 p. 256 Remington Roomsweeper
If you’re not a fan of flechette shooters, load some Heavy Pistol rounds into a Roomsweeper and she shoots like a really inaccurate hand cannon.
If you don't care about attack rating (and it doesn't seem as if you do) then the Roomsweeper is arguably the best hand cannon in the entire game ;-)
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Rolling through the comments w/o the wall of text:
I usually don't lean on realism in RPGs, but the ranges listed for shotguns (even with slugs) are just crap. A 12-gauge slug loses more than half of its energy at around 70 meters, and the ballistics go to drek beyond ~45 meters. There is no way a slug is going to be accurate to 250 meters. Shotguns really shouldn't have a medium range increment at all.
In a vacuum, shotguns don't look bad on paper. In this edition, they immediately get overshadowed by rifles in almost every category but price. In fifth, they had the spread rule to catch multiple targets with one shot, which while not super effective at range, made close encounters fragging terrifying in close spaces.
A good fix would be to use the next firing mode up per ammo count (one shell for SA, two shells for BF) when using buckshot, but drop the medium range increment regardless of ammo type.
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Why get a Colt Cobra TZ instead of a FN P93 Praetor? You wouldn't, unless it was all that was available, or you were short 85Ĩ-195Ĩ. And to that effect, why would you bother with any of the shotguns if you could afford a Praetor?
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As for the profile of a light pistol, it is called out in the concealability table on pg. 246, where rating 3 is listed as "pocket-sized" with the example given of a light pistol. Even if you cut down the barrel, a shotgun is easily 2-3 times the size of a light pistol, and would not fit in a normal pocket. A shotgun is about the size of a rifle (C1), so a sawed-off would be about the size of an SMG (C2).
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The PJS Model 55 calls out firing both barrels as a short burst (a subset of BF on pg. 109), not just semi-automatic. BF attacks can hit two targets by RAW, so even though you are letting both shots fly simultaneously, they can be directed at two separate targets.
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The Roomsweeper aside, how much does shotgun ammo cost? It's not listed anywhere.
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- Defiance T-250 has two versions, with the stats for the short-barrel version tucked into the description instead of the weapon table. And somehow, the short-barrel version has the same ammo capacity...
What does the barrel length have to do with ammo capacity?
The short barrel version in SR5 had the same ammo capacity, easier to conceal, shorter range and less DV (it was also all described in the body text of the weapon).
- Mossberg CMDT has 10-round clips or 24-round drums, but no cost listed for a drum.
IIRC SR5 does not have specific listed prices for drums (or belts), either ;)
"This thing is confusing"
"It was confusing in SR5 also"
...is not a compelling defence of SR6. Apart from anything else, you'd hope that "fix things that were confusing in SR5" was fairly high up the SR6 todo list.
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There is no way a slug is going to be accurate to 250 meters.
They have similar AR at medium range as heavy pistols and SMGs (which are arguably also not very accurate at 250 meters). While they can be used, medium range arguably outside of their comfort zone. From a tactical point of view you should probably avoid shooting a well built street samurai at medium range with them. Medium range seem to be the comfort zone of assault rifles.
In a vacuum, shotguns don't look bad on paper. In this edition, they immediately get overshadowed by rifles in almost every category but price.
Shotguns are cheap near range rifles to be compared more with heavy pistols and SMGs rather than assault rifles.
In fifth, they had the spread rule to catch multiple targets with one shot...
Which was highly unrealistic, as have already been discussed.
A good fix would be to use the next firing mode up per ammo count (one shell for SA, two shells for BF) when using buckshot, but drop the medium range increment regardless of ammo type.
That is a terrible fix as it mechanically doesn't do anything really except increasing DV by 1 and decreasing AR by 2 (as well as adding confusion and unnecessary complexity about how many slugs that are spend when firing in SA and BF mode).
It would be a much better solution to just factor that into base DV and AR values (and for all we know they probably already done that).
Compared to SMGs, shotguns are game mechanically generally identical except that they might be harder to conceal, might do more damage and might have less AR at melee range.
You wouldn't, unless it was....
My point is that there is really nothing wrong with shotguns. There are similar weapons and there are worse weapons and there are better weapons. It depend on what you are looking for.
And to that effect, why would you bother with any of the shotguns if you could afford a Praetor?
Because;
- you like to use shotguns rather than SMGs (because of style)
- Praetor is more expansive
- Both PJSS and Mossberg are more efficient at medium range, slightly overlapping the bridge to assault rifles (Praetor AR values are already factoring in laser sight while the shotguns are not)
- Both version of Defiance get to clear glitch jams with a minor action
- Roomsweeper deal more damage
Take your pick.
As for the profile of a light pistol, it is called out in the concealability table on pg. 246
Thank you.
To be honest I think this is a mistake and the concealability of the short barrel version should be 2 (this would also match more with SR5 values where it went from +6, same as assault rifles, to +4 - while SMGs and machine pistols with folding stock was at +2 and remington roomsweeper was at +0)
The reasoning could also be that with a shortened barrel it is roughly as long as a SMG, but it is probably not as wide. Making it easier to conceal under your coat or in your pants.
I'll make an entry about it in the errata thread over at reddit.
BF attacks can hit two targets by RAW...
BF (short) is a direct copy pasta mistake from SR5 (it is quite obvious if you compare the text).
SR5 BF mode meant that the weapon would automatically fire 3 rounds at the same target when you tapped the trigger once. Target got a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice on their defense test. This was a simple action. It could not be split upon two different targets. BF (short) meant that you would fire both barrels at the same time on the same target but rather than firing 3 bullets you would just fire 2 (and rather than a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice the target got a negative dice pool modifier of 1 dice).
In SR5, SA mode mean you fire 2 shells in one action. When used against one target you +1 DV and -2 AR. This is mechanically the same as using BF mode doing a wide burst but only attacking one opponent. In SR5 it would mechanically be enough to just list SS/SA (or just SA as all SA weapons also have SS firing modes according to the starter rules) as valid firing modes. That they also list BF (short) is a mistake and is subject for errata.
I'll make an entry about it in the errata thread over at reddit.
The Roomsweeper aside, how much does shotgun ammo cost? It's not listed anywhere.
It is not listed anywhere (RAW) and would be subject for errata (same as auto cannon ammo are also not listed).
The intention (RAI) might have been for shotguns to use Rifle ammo prices and damage values.
This is already listed in the errata thread over at reddit.
is not a compelling defence of SR6
No, but if it worked for so many years without people arguing that the edition is totally unplayable then it will probably work a few more years.
Both editions list the cost for Empty Clip (5 nuyen, p. 261).
The intention is that you use that for empty magazines, drums, belts, etc.
I'll make an entry about it in the errata thread over at reddit.
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No, but if it worked for so many years without people arguing that the edition is totally unplayable then it will probably work a few more years.
Where did anyone say it was totally unplayable? Or is this a strawman argument?
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Iīd say that a good start would be applying different modifiers according to the Range Bands.
Something like this:
- Close Range: +1 Damage
- Near Range: +2 AR
- Medium Range: -2 AR, -1 Damage
On close range, you get the full boom of a direct, devastating Shotgun blast. No adjustments to the AR, though: The spread of the flechette rounds has not enough space to "bloom" at this range to compensate for the fact that Long-barreled weapons are not well suited for close range/melee situations (BTW: I really like the fact that the AR tables are also used to reflect melee viability!). On near range, you have that spread that might help you overcome the DR of the target better. Since Shotguns are already a top choice for that range, this further enhances their real strength. At medium range, the Flechettes lose their effectiveness, resulting in a drop in AR and Damage.
Or: If you prefer a simpler and less wordy solution, you can also ditch the damage adjustments and go with something like this:
+0 | +2 | -2 | -4 | -6
This one is just a simple adjustment of AR over different range bands. Easy to remember, easy to note, meaningful enough to be considered a tactical choice for fans of near-range shotgun action and urban combat. And most importantly, not a total mechanical trap 8)
(I also added adjustments for long and extreme ranges, because who who knows :P)
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Oooh, I like that a lot.
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Thanks, I appreciate it ;D
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Since style keeps coming up, I have to ask what would make a shotgun a compelling stylistic choice? Does a shotgun look pretty? Does it make you look like a badass? If one of your players wants to take one, that's fine, but I have a feeling that after a couple of engagements they are going to swap out for something better. Style usually takes a backseat to not dieing. Most people I've played with take shotguns because they are big scary guns that throw a cloud of shot at a target. Not because they look pretty.
The simple truth is that both SR5 and SR6 failed to capture what makes a SHOTgun a shotgun, which is the use of SHOT, not slugs. And the justification given for both editions is weak at best. And instead of being open to discussing changes to make them mechanically different or interesting, CGL has just said "works as intended, so why are you complaining?" Or "just use flechette ammo. Its close enough. Problem solved".
I honestly sometimes wonder if the writers have ever fired a gun before...
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I still don't understand your obsession with SR6 shotguns. They deal good damage and they have good attack ratings at the intended Near range category. Compared to heavy pistols and SMGs (which also share Near as their optimal range category) I would say they are in a really good spot.
Shotguns loaded with regular shots (20+ small "pellets") are not very efficient against anything but smaller game such as rabbits, vermin, ducks and clay pigeons. If you plan on hunting medium sized game with a shotgun you would probably instead use ammunition that have fewer but bigger "pellets" (like 00 shots that only have perhaps 8-9 "pellets"). Slugs are primarily used when it comes to deer, elk, bears, hogs and other large or thick-skinned creatures.
Translated to Shadowrun, where everyone is assumed to wear some sort of body armor (which have some 60 years of evolution compared to body armor found today) and where you have big trolls that are built tough and have dermal deposits, it is also not really strange that the default ammunition is slugs rather than shots ;)
I personally also think it is perfectly fine that you gain a point (or two) of Attack Rating, but also that you lose a point of damage, if you switch from slugs to 00 shots.
A more interesting discussion might be if assault rifles should have a slightly reduced attack rating at the near range category (in favor to heavy pistols, SMGs and shotguns), but I feel that that is another topic.
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Shotguns loaded with regular shots (20+ small "pellets") are not very efficient against anything but smaller game such as rabbits, vermin, ducks and clay pigeons. If you plan on hunting medium sized game with a shotgun you would probably instead use ammunition that have fewer but bigger "pellets" (like 00 shots that only have perhaps 8-9 "pellets"). Slugs are primarily used when it comes to deer, elk, bears, hogs and other large or thick-skinned creatures.
True, and thatīs precisely why the default "Shot" for the Shotguns in a Shadowrunnerīs toolkit (apart from Slugs) are Flechettes and not Bird- or Buckshots. These are designed to be used against people. Thatīs why Iīm - well, one might call it obsessed ;) - with the fact that Flechettes (along with APDS) are dead entries in the Ammo section right now.
Admittingly, this is more of a pet peeve for my compared to other issues in SR6. Maybe there will be some kind of errata on this, or just some other/better/alternative Shotgun Ammo types in the Combat rulebook. Itīs surely worth a shot (*badum tss*) to offer rules and stats for stuff like Dragonīs Breath (wonder if S-K has trademark on that?) because this is one actual, undeniable benefit of Shotguns: You can load some pretty crazy stuff in a round.
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Game mechanic wise I actually think it make sense that Flechette deal slightly less damage but have a higher AR (but maybe it should be +2 rather than +1) as this make them better at gaining tactical advantage with if your opponents don't have very strong armor but worse at penetrating barriers.
I covered my thoughts on APDS pretty well in another topic (but long story short I think it make sense that APDS deal less damage as well, but rather than having an AR increase like Flechette I think they could maybe use some tweaks focused on making them better against heavy armored targets as well as targets that have hardened armor)