Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: markelphoenix on <08-29-19/0640:19>
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If I am Astral Projecting, and I see some Metahumans, could I not cast Mana Spells at them? What is to keep a mage from frying a group of mundanes from the astral if they have Mana based attack spells?
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They're not astrally active and you can only affect the astral plane while projecting. Dual-natured are fair game however.
(This is not explicitly stated in the astral combat section, but implied by the manifesting info just before)
A manifesting
astral projection has no physical presence,
meaning they cannot interact with the
physical world, and they are not captured on
any recording equipment. You also cannot
cast spells at targets solely on the physical
plane,
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If I am Astral Projecting, and I see some Metahumans, could I not cast Mana Spells at them? What is to keep a mage from frying a group of mundanes from the astral if they have Mana based attack spells?
To paraphrase the 2e rules (which I think explain this more coherently than any later editions I've read):
There are two scenarios under which someone casts a spell: they are on the physical plane, or they are on the Astral plane.
If they are on the physical, what happens is: as part of the process of casting the spell they synchronise their aura with the target's aura. The energy gathers around the caster, then travels between caster and target on the Astral plane, and then "grounds out" to the physical world through the target's aura. It is this grounding out, the transfer of shaped energy from the Astral to the physical, that causes the spell effects. When the target isn't something that is active on the astral plane, this grounding can only happen when there's physical target-physical caster symmetry because the caster needs to do this aura syncing to complete the circuit.
This is also why spells like Mana Bolt don't offer the target a defence roll (you can't dodge something that comes from inside you!) or consider things like armour (again, the spell bubbles up from inside your body -- can't armour against that!)
If the target is themselves astrally active -- a dual-natured being like a Materialised Spirit, an Astrally projecting or perceiving person, or similar -- then rules change. Now, that target is its own ground contact; it exists on both planes at once, so the caster no longer has to do the syncing aura thing. This means the caster can hide out on the Astral and lob spells from relative safety.
(This is only for Direct spells, like Mana Bolt. Indirect spells like Acid Stream are something different. There, the caster effectively casts the spell targeted at themselves ("I summon a stream of acid that will be directed over there") and the spell comes into existence right infront of them. Then, the magically created matter or energy travels from the caster to the target in the physical plane, like any other object. But this also means people who get hit by the acid get defence rolls and armour can help them.)
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Grounding doesn't exist in 6W rules so shouldn't be used to answer a rule question.
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Thank y'all for reply. One last question, what about Indirect Combat Spells in the Astral? i.e. a Flamestrike or other Physical spell.
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Grounding doesn't exist in 6W rules so shouldn't be used to answer a rule question.
Eh, I think the point was less to provide the rule, which you covered (thanks btw :-)), but to help with the fluff of it.
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Through Grounding it was possible to kill a mage because they had an active focus. That's not possible anymore, so the logic doesn't fully apply.
My notes say "Spellcasting works as normal but Mana spells only (p161)" for in the Astral. Second paragraph that page apparently.
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Eh, I think the point was less to provide the rule, which you covered (thanks btw :-)), but to help with the fluff of it.
Indeed. If there's coherent fluff anywhere that explains fully and clearly how this works within the game world in 5e, I'm yet to read it.
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Through Grounding it was possible to kill a mage because they had an active focus. That's not possible anymore, so the logic doesn't fully apply.
Note I was careful not to mention foci in my post. I am aware they changed along the way.
Does anything in what I wrote contravene the rules-as-written of 5e or 6e? I do not think so, but would like to know if so.
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what about Indirect Combat Spells in the Astral? i.e. a Flamestrike or other Physical spell.
SR6 p. 131 Spell Descriptions
Physical spells only affect the physical realm.
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If I am Astral Projecting, and I see some Metahumans, could I not cast Mana Spells at them? What is to keep a mage from frying a group of mundanes from the astral if they have Mana based attack spells?
Technically, nothing.
However everyone who's played SR in editions 1 thru 5 know it's not supposed to work that way.
I need a canned response line for "The errata team is aware of this."
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In earlier editions you either need to see the actual physical body of the target with your natural vision (optical reflections, optical lenses, optical binoculars, optical fibers etc as well as and augmentations you payed for with essence count as natural vision)
Or, if you switched from your physical vision to your astral vision (by using astral perception or astral vision), you need to sense a targets true tangible astral form (not their intangible astral aura) with your astral perception.
While intangible astral auras could be sensed from the astral plane, they could not be targeted.
Honestly not sure how much of this is explained or being limited in SR6.....
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Manifesting you can't even target people on the physical plane, so I'd argue the same applies when you're fully astral. But definitely needs clarification.
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Manifesting you can't even target people on the physical plane, so I'd argue the same applies when you're fully astral. But definitely needs clarification.
That's the reasonable inference yes.
But you do have those players who refuse to be reasonable.
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It is always useful to get it in writing, because even with good natured players fhere is an element of disappointment and beinf the bad guy to telling them that, no, they can't do this cool thing that was, to them, evocative and fun and seemingly allowed.
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It is always useful to get it in writing, because even with good natured players fhere is an element of disappointment and beinf the bad guy to telling them that, no, they can't do this cool thing that was, to them, evocative and fun and seemingly allowed.
Indeed.
We are, of course, aware of this oversight.
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Through Grounding it was possible to kill a mage because they had an active focus. That's not possible anymore, so the logic doesn't fully apply.
Note I was careful not to mention foci in my post. I am aware they changed along the way.
Does anything in what I wrote contravene the rules-as-written of 5e or 6e? I do not think so, but would like to know if so.
Still waiting for an answer on this!
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I don't get it... What are you still waiting for (and whats up with the "!")
In earlier editions you "ground" spells into the physical world. That meant is that a wholly astral entity could for example "ground" an AoE spell from astral plane via a dual natured subject (like a magician using astral perception) or object (like an active focus) and in this way affect wholly physical targets on the physical plane.
In later editions this was changed and "grounding" is no longer a "thing" (like Michael already told you). In later editions a wholly astral entity may only cast spells on subjects and items that have an actual tangible astral form (not just an intangible astral aura) on the astral plane. In later editions spells cast on astral plane stays on astral plane. Spells cast on physical plane also stays on the physical plane. Since spells are no longer "grounded" this mean a wholly astral being can no longer cast an AoE spell on the physical plane via a dual natured subject or object. I pretty much already wrote this earlier in this topic.
Since you are using "!" it kinda look like you are "demanding" us to provide you with proof from either SR5 or SR6. I don't think I like that approach of yours, but here you have a few quotes you can use.
SR5 p. 281 Step 2: Choose the Target
A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that are present in astral space (though auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted)
SR5 p. 313 Astral Projection
Auras alone don’t give you the mystic link you need to target spells. As the saying goes, what’s cast in astral space stays in astral space, and ditto for physical space.
There are more references like this.
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What I am asking is, where does the fluff I wrote here contradict the quotes you wrote? You say "you cannot 'ground' any more" but I don't see why what I've written is wrong. Now, if I'd written about the old 2e-era mechanic of grounding through active foci, I would have been incorrect. But I very deliberately didn't do that. I merely presented a piece of fluff explanation for how I remember the spellcasting rules that I believe is entirely consistent with the quotes you just gave from SR5 and SR6. I'm curious why you and MC then felt the need to correct me on something that doesn't appear -- to me -- to be in conflict with the rules.
Edit -- for others reading later -- Xenon has deleted the SR5 and SR6 quotes they originally posted while I was writing this, as well as the footnote where they called me a "lazy bastard".
Here's exactly what I wrote, for your reference:
There are two scenarios under which someone casts a spell: they are on the physical plane, or they are on the Astral plane.
If they are on the physical, what happens is: as part of the process of casting the spell they synchronise their aura with the target's aura. The energy gathers around the caster, then travels between caster and target on the Astral plane, and then "grounds out" to the physical world through the target's aura. It is this grounding out, the transfer of shaped energy from the Astral to the physical, that causes the spell effects. When the target isn't something that is active on the astral plane, this grounding can only happen when there's physical target-physical caster symmetry because the caster needs to do this aura syncing to complete the circuit.
This is also why spells like Mana Bolt don't offer the target a defence roll (you can't dodge something that comes from inside you!) or consider things like armour (again, the spell bubbles up from inside your body -- can't armour against that!)
If the target is themselves astrally active -- a dual-natured being like a Materialised Spirit, an Astrally projecting or perceiving person, or similar -- then rules change. Now, that target is its own ground contact; it exists on both planes at once, so the caster no longer has to do the syncing aura thing. This means the caster can hide out on the Astral and lob spells from relative safety.
(This is only for Direct spells, like Mana Bolt. Indirect spells like Acid Stream are something different. There, the caster effectively casts the spell targeted at themselves ("I summon a stream of acid that will be directed over there") and the spell comes into existence right infront of them. Then, the magically created matter or energy travels from the caster to the target in the physical plane, like any other object. But this also means people who get hit by the acid get defence rolls and armour can help them.)
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Ah, MC has briefly come down off his high horse to DM me and say:
You're on my ignore list. I'm not doing your homework for you. It's a miracle I replied to you in the first place.
...so I guess that explains his lack of response. I shall consider my inbox forever blessed that he has DMd me twice now, the other time to make threats that I was calling him a liar because I had the temerity to challenge his wisdom. N'er mind. Onwards! I shall have to carry this burden somehow.
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Was rereading your post(s) and edited my post. Please scroll up and re-read it.
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Was rereading your post(s) and edited my post. Please scroll up and re-read it.
Dunno, doesn't sound like something a "lazy bastard" would do. Am I a "lazy bastard", Xenon? ;)
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Tell you what, I don't really care what you do.
From now on I will simply stop replying to your requests.
But please, when new players come to the rules section of this forum, looking for advice about how the rules actually work, I would appreciate if you follow Michael Chandra's advice and don't start telling them about "grounding spells" or other game mechanics that have been explicitly and deliberately removed from the game many editions ago.
Have a nice day, sir.
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@penllawen - stop the snipes and jabs. Share your opinion, make your point, but not at the expense of others on the forum.
SR Mod
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@penllawen - stop the snipes and jabs. Share your opinion, make your point, but not at the expense of others on the forum.
SR Mod
Ok.
Just out of curiosity, am I the only one being told off here, or is Xenon calling me a lazy bastard and Michael Chandra DMing me stuff going to get overlooked because they’re regulars?
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No, you are not.
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Thank you.
Now that's over with:
In later editions spells cast on astral plane stays on astral plane. Spells cast on physical plane also stays on the physical plane. Since spells are no longer "grounded" this mean a wholly astral being can no longer cast an AoE spell on the physical plane via a dual natured subject or object.
Ah! There's the thing I was missing. Yep, this pretty much destroys my point; there's no way to reconcile the stuff I wrote with AoE spells not leaking out even when cast from the Astral. This is important, because I've been using that mental model from 2e (modified to ignore foci) as a shortcut to remember the magic rules in 5e, so I would have certainly made this mistake at the table at some point. Thank you for correcting me.
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Personal opinion:
Just treat the rules about magic and planes as if nothing's changed since 5e. Of course that doesn't help with certain tricky interactions (can you cast, project, then still sustain? etc) nor does it help those new to SR who didn't play 5e. For them, the simple rule of thumb should suffice for the time being: target eligibility is reciprocal. If they can't touch you, you can't touch them. But also remember the Dual Natured rule (which includes regular magicians who happen to be currently using Astral Perception). You can target them while projecting, but also so can they attack you. Not just with spells either, which is important to remember for critters like ghouls and barghests...