Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: markelphoenix on <09-01-19/2341:19>
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How can a Phys Adept have 6 power points out of chargen without foci
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It depends on if you follow the chargen restriction or go 'yeah no that would permanently cripple them, PP equal Magic is how we do it'.
As alternative you could let them grow into it with awaking 1 PP each month.
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How can a Phys Adept have 6 power points out of chargen without foci
The way the rule is now, they can't. Even though they gain free power point with an increase of Magic (pg 156) per pg 66 that rule is specifically trumped during character creation.
The Adept pregen on pg 81 was possibly created before the rule on pg 66 was added.
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How can a Phys Adept have 6 power points out of chargen without foci
Depending on your unadjusted magic rating from Magic or Resonance priority you can, during chargen, get between 1 (priority E) and 4 (priority A) Power Points.
During chargen this is the only source of Power Points.
During chargen you can use customize karma on four different things (binding qi focus for Power Points is not one of them)
- Attribute advancement
- Skill advancement
- Resources
- Qualities
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Of course the RAW there sucks big time, because it permanently punishes any Adepts that uses SAPs on Magic in chargen. So I have Opinions on that part of the rules. But I don't know if it will get some errata or not. I gave my brother some temporary ones for his campaign.
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It‘s such a weird thing. I mean, if that‘s really supposed to bei RAI and not just RAW, wouldn‘t it be better to prevent Adepts from raising Magic with SAP/Karma during chargen all together? Or at least add a kind of warning, like „Yo, it‘s really not a good idea to do this, because you will basically lose P.P.?“
Maybe have a look at the sample Characters... Oh. Right...
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It‘s such a weird thing. I mean, if that‘s really supposed to bei RAI and not just RAW, wouldn‘t it be better to prevent Adepts from raising Magic with SAP/Karma during chargen all together? Or at least add a kind of warning, like „Yo, it‘s really not a good idea to do this, because you will basically lose P.P.?“
Maybe have a look at the sample Characters... Oh. Right...
Yeah...I am home ruling out the limit...this fundamentally looks like someone took a bit too much bliss when they wrote the rule.
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Dunno how it would interact with cyberware.
Say you chose magic 2 from priority, and boosted that with 2 more points from your adjustment points. You now have magic 4, but only 2 PP.
But then you gain 2 points of cyberware, would that leave you at magic and PP 2, magic 2 and PP 0, or magic 4 and 2PP?
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By RAW right now, you don't lose power points when you lose magic... so your guess is as good as mine
The key measurements of power in adepts are their power points. These points are used by adept characters to buy the powers that will enhance their abilities. Whenever adept characters gain a point of Magic, they also gain a power point. This means that an adept character who starts with a Magic rating of 4 also starts with 4 power points. Power points do not need to be spent when they are obtained; characters can hold on to them and use them when ready.
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It‘s such a weird thing. I mean, if that‘s really supposed to bei RAI and not just RAW, wouldn‘t it be better to prevent Adepts from raising Magic with SAP/Karma during chargen all together? Or at least add a kind of warning, like „Yo, it‘s really not a good idea to do this, because you will basically lose P.P.?“
Maybe have a look at the sample Characters... Oh. Right...
Yeah...I am home ruling out the limit...this fundamentally looks like someone took a bit too much bliss when they wrote the rule.
Screwing players is largely what 6e does best. So I applaud your house rule. But it is sad that it needs to be done.
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Dunno how it would interact with cyberware.
The amount of free PP (and free spell or rituals) you get during chargen is based on your unadjusted magic rating from your Magic or Resonance priority.
The amount of free PP (and free spells or rituals) does not change if you adjust the magic rating up with adjustment points or karma nor if you adjust the magic rating down by getting augmentations that cause essence loss.
Screwing players is largely what ...
This is the Rules section of the forum. People come here to ask legit rules related questions and they expect to get accurate answers.
I know you are pretty salty about the new edition (you made that perfectly clear in many of your recent posts), but if you still feel an urge to express that (once again) maybe I can suggest that you do that in the General section of the forum rather than the Rules section of the forum.
Thank you for your understanding.
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Mind you, that's under current RAW. We don't know yet what errata will be.
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It‘s such a weird thing. I mean, if that‘s really supposed to bei RAI and not just RAW, wouldn‘t it be better to prevent Adepts from raising Magic with SAP/Karma during chargen all together? Or at least add a kind of warning, like „Yo, it‘s really not a good idea to do this, because you will basically lose P.P.?“
Maybe have a look at the sample Characters... Oh. Right...
Yeah...I am home ruling out the limit...this fundamentally looks like someone took a bit too much bliss when they wrote the rule.
Just remember that because you gain ALOT of adjustment points compared to magic points, 95% of all physical adept builds would be best suited with magic D, and then supplemented by adjustment points to reach 6ish. Magic, if you rule that you gain PP by adjustment points.
In 5th edition you had adept skill points as a special feature in the magic column. So in 5th you had to make a choice between extra skill points or edge.
Personally I think 6th ed priority table is a bit off. And I foresee either an errata, or several houserules.
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As the table stands any build is best suited by magic D and using adjustment points to raise magic.
The karma value of 6 spells (the difference in spells from pri A to pri D) is way less than the value of the extra attribute points you get (freeing an A slot for attributes or skills is +8 points for either and each of those points is worth a lot more than 5 karma). I would make that trade anytime even if I can't buy extra spells at character creation.
Adepts are the only magic archetype that gets actively harmed by spending adjustment point in magic.
Basically the priority table doesn't make you pay for access to magic. It just makes you pay through the nose for spells / power points which you can get in game for much less karma (kind of the same way you are not made to pay for all those qualities you get as a troll/ork/dwarf/elf, just pay over going rate for extra attribute points)
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Dunno how it would interact with cyberware.
The amount of free PP (and free spell or rituals) you get during chargen is based on your unadjusted magic rating from your Magic or Resonance priority.
The amount of free PP (and free spells or rituals) does not change if you adjust the magic rating up with adjustment points or karma nor if you adjust the magic rating down by getting augmentations that cause essence loss.
Screwing players is largely what ...
This is the Rules section of the forum. People come here to ask legit rules related questions and they expect to get accurate answers.
I know you are pretty salty about the new edition (you made that perfectly clear in many of your recent posts), but if you still feel an urge to express that (once again) maybe I can suggest that you do that in the General section of the forum rather than the Rules section of the forum.
Thank you for your understanding.
Xenon, I saw your post on unarmed damage on Reddit, and you're lecturing me on accurate answers? To be clear my answer is accurate, honest and rules related, further I'm 100% happy to give examples if you wish for a supporting argument.
By all means Xenon Support 6e if that's what your heart tells you, but for the record my concern has nothing to do with "salt", and everything to do with how bad the 6e rules are. 10 pages of "hot fix" errata didn't even scratch the surface of the mess that are the 6e Rules. DTRPG is issuing refunds, I've never even heard of that for a product like SR. I hope the errata team is allowed to make the changes needed just to make the rules functional. I also hope the errata team is compensated for their time and effort in doing so.
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This is the Rules section of the forum. People come here to ask legit rules related questions and they expect to get accurate answers.
The section description says "Need a question on rules answered? Want to discuss interpretations and quirks? Come here!" (emphasis mine.) To my mind, where the rules-as-written are ambiguous and/or seem to have editing errors, and an objectively "accurate" answer is therefore difficult or impossible, then discussing what might be the rules-as-intended and/or possible houserules is perfectly cromulent.
And for this specific case -- it's very clear that rules-as-written for adept power points at chargen are screwed up, the errata team have confirmed they are being worked over. We don't know when we might see this errata. In the mean time, what's the harm in allowing people to discuss how to patch over the cracks in the system for their table?
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the errata team have confirmed they are being worked over
That's a bit harsh ;)
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the errata team have confirmed they are being worked over
That's a bit harsh ;)
Hah! That wasn't intentional, but now I have a vision of the errata team as a group of rogue cops taking some of the more dubious aspects of the CRB out the back for a "quiet talking to" and bringing them back in covered in bruises... "I swear, Mr Hardy, the Anticipate Edge action fell down some stairs. Nothing we could do. Firing SA guns in SS mode? Nah, it looked like that when we brought it in. Must have been in a scuffle earlier this evening."
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DTRPG is issuing refunds...
How do you come by this information? Are you working for DTRPG? Have an inside contact? Or is this Reddit "information"?
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the errata team have confirmed they are being worked over
That's a bit harsh ;)
Hah! That wasn't intentional, but now I have a vision of the errata team as a group of rogue cops taking some of the more dubious aspects of the CRB out the back for a "quiet talking to" and bringing them back in covered in bruises... "I swear, Mr Hardy, the Anticipate Edge action fell down some stairs. Nothing we could do. Firing SA guns in SS mode? Nah, it looked like that when we brought it in. Must have been in a scuffle earlier this evening."
*Wipes blood of the baton*
"Well, turns out that Strength does play a role when using a melee weapon. Fella just needed a little demonstration ::)"
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As the table stands any build is best suited by magic D and using adjustment points to raise magic.
The karma value of 6 spells (the difference in spells from pri A to pri D) is way less than the value of the extra attribute points you get (freeing an A slot for attributes or skills is +8 points for either and each of those points is worth a lot more than 5 karma). I would make that trade anytime even if I can't buy extra spells at character creation.
Adepts are the only magic archetype that gets actively harmed by spending adjustment point in magic.
Basically the priority table doesn't make you pay for access to magic. It just makes you pay through the nose for spells / power points which you can get in game for much less karma (kind of the same way you are not made to pay for all those qualities you get as a troll/ork/dwarf/elf, just pay over going rate for extra attribute points)
Yup. Adept I can see why someone might go magic B i doubt A due to attributes A, right race etc maybe. But mages. Outside one shots I’d never take higher than D. Oh no I have to live with 2 spells for a run. But one attribute moving from 4 to 5 is the same cost as 4 of the 6 lost spells and since I’m shifting multiple Collins up one I got 8 attributes and 4+ skills out of it, heck ill buy the formulas at char gen to make it easier.
Hopefully the karma gen book comes out soon.
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Correct me if I am wrong gentlemen. But as far as I am reading the text correctly at page 66, ALL characters with Magic attribute have their spell selection based on the Priority table, before Special Attribute Points, Karma, etc.
Page 156 says that whenever adept character gains a point of magic, they gain a power point and that characters can hold on to them and use them when ready.
So in my mind, Adept gets his priority based powers and starts a game with a couple of power points ready to spend thanks to Special Attribute Point. Learning a spell (I assume is the same as Adept power) costs 5 karma, takes approx a week and costs some ¥NuYen.
Drek! I was just given something to pursue in the Shadowrun world. I might have to adjust my initial or acquire new Contacts, so I can learn and progress. It feels very much alive and natural, especially for an adept, which I imagine keeps methodical training regimes.
No plan survives first contact with the enemy, so the game design might just gave me a favour, because if my GM puts me into a setting my "OP build" didn't account for, I am flexible.
Be water my friend
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ALL characters with Magic attribute have their spell selection based on the Priority table, before Special Attribute Points, Karma, etc.
This is my reading as well.
This would be a chargen specific rule that override the general rule found later on p. 156
Page 156 says that whenever adept character gains a point of magic, they gain a power point and that characters can hold on to them and use them when ready.
As I read it this only apply after chargen.
During chargen you only get power points based on the unadjusted magic from Magic or Resonance priority.
A character that pick priority A (and don't spend any adjustment points or karma on magic and also don't get any augmentations) will leave chargen with both 4 magic and 4 power points.
A character that pick priority A but also spend 2 adjustment points on magic will leave chargen with 6 magic but still only 4 power points.
I assume is the same as Adept power
As far as I can tell, learning an adept power does not cost anything
(as long as you already have the power points to spare that is).
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It's certainly a reasonable enough house rule to ignore the rule on pg 66 about Adepts' Power Points and just let them gain PPs with MAG increases.
I'd think at least thrice however before extending that same rule to MysAds. They really don't need that help.
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Note that under current raw you're not allowed to buy and learn extra spells in chargen.
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Note that under current raw you're not allowed to buy and learn extra spells in chargen.
You can but then though. And potentially save the karma to learn them quickly depending on if and how much karma you can save. And if you can’t save karma you can still but the formulas and learn them quickly over the next few runs. Each run will probably get you 1 learned spell. It would take 5 runs to bump a 4 stat up to 5.
It’s a annoying hoop to jump through to be sure but the math is solidly on going D for full mages outside of one shots etc.
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DTRPG is issuing refunds...
How do you come by this information? Are you working for DTRPG? Have an inside contact? Or is this Reddit "information"?
If you buy enough product regularly DriveThru always issues refunds, you just have to say "I dont like this". Then it vanishes from your library. Of course it needs to be within a couple days of purchase. The haters are acting like this is a new thing. Think of it this way if Im a business and I say buy $50 in pdfs a month and after a year I want to return a $25 one, which is better for them? Take a hit or just say sure and give you a refund and kill the link. Id think anyone who bought all of 5e has enough $$$ in drivethru that if you dont like 6e they will give you a refund.
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DTRPG is issuing refunds...
How do you come by this information? Are you working for DTRPG? Have an inside contact? Or is this Reddit "information"?
If you buy enough product regularly DriveThru always issues refunds, you just have to say "I dont like this". Then it vanishes from your library. Of course it needs to be within a couple days of purchase. The haters are acting like this is a new thing. Think of it this way if Im a business and I say buy $50 in pdfs a month and after a year I want to return a $25 one, which is better for them? Take a hit or just say sure and give you a refund and kill the link. Id think anyone who bought all of 5e has enough $$$ in drivethru that if you dont like 6e they will give you a refund.
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To the first personal acquaintance. As too the second I have been a DTRPG customer sense just after launch and my library on there is fair sized (a little less then 400 titles), I have never returned a single book, including when books I had purchased become unavailable due changes in their publishers distribution policies. I believe have sense gotten most of those books back, but I was never issues a refund and I did exchange emails with them on that subject.
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DTRPG is issuing refunds...
How do you come by this information? Are you working for DTRPG? Have an inside contact? Or is this Reddit "information"?
If you buy enough product regularly DriveThru always issues refunds, you just have to say "I dont like this". Then it vanishes from your library. Of course it needs to be within a couple days of purchase. The haters are acting like this is a new thing. Think of it this way if Im a business and I say buy $50 in pdfs a month and after a year I want to return a $25 one, which is better for them? Take a hit or just say sure and give you a refund and kill the link. Id think anyone who bought all of 5e has enough $$$ in drivethru that if you dont like 6e they will give you a refund.
'
To the first personal acquaintance. As too the second I have been a DTRPG customer sense just after launch and my library on there is fair sized (a little less then 400 titles), I have never returned a single book, including when books I had purchased become unavailable due changes in their publishers distribution policies. I believe have sense gotten most of those books back, but I was never issues a refund and I did exchange emails with them on that subject.
Interesting, I've never needed to get a refund on the 500+ titles in my library either.
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Correct me if I am wrong gentlemen. But as far as I am reading the text correctly at page 66, ALL characters with Magic attribute have their spell selection based on the Priority table, before Special Attribute Points, Karma, etc.
Page 156 says that whenever adept character gains a point of magic, they gain a power point and that characters can hold on to them and use them when ready.
So in my mind, Adept gets his priority based powers and starts a game with a couple of power points ready to spend thanks to Special Attribute Point. Learning a spell (I assume is the same as Adept power) costs 5 karma, takes approx a week and costs some ¥NuYen.
That is a very interesting take on this, PatrolDeer. That had not occurred to me as a possible way to interpret the discrepancy. It would still mean that the Adept Archetype character is wrong; they should only have 4 points of powers not 5.5, assuming the archetypes are intended to be newly created characters. But it would allow Adepts to get the full value of their character generation Magic Rating in the fullness of time with I what I think is a the minimal alteration of the current rules.
I honestly don't think this is what was intended by the designers. I think they just created the archetype under an earlier set of rules, changed the rules to put a cap on how many points/spells/whatever you could get during char gen to make Magic Priority selection a more weighty decision, but then forgot to go back and correct the archetype to account for this. But I like your interpretation as a practical way to address it until errata appear.
Also, I agree with what others have said; if it really is the case that by increasing your Magic Rating at character generation you are permanently reducing the number of power points your character will ever earn, there needs to be a warning or other statement in the rules to this effect.
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if it really is the case that by increasing your Magic Rating at character generation you are permanently reducing the number of power points your character will ever earn, there needs to be a warning or other statement in the rules to this effect.
And that really would be at the very very least. It would barely ever make much sense for an Adept to invest additional Points in Magic this way and would always be hurting them. Thus it would be more of a service to players (even though still a misguided one) to actually prohibit Adepts from spending their extra points on Magic.
However I still think this is one of the, by now typical, brainfarts that have been crammed in last minute and need to be remedied by errata... It just makes no sense not to give adepts the Power Points for the Magic rating they get. So my take on this will simply be Adepts start with Power Points equal to Magic rating as per priority table and then gain Power Points every time they gain Magic, be it by Extra Points during char gen or Karma.
And while we are at it, they should also lose Power Points should they permanently lose Magic.
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Yeah I want to both build a few magical characters and design some alternative priorities but can't until errata are out. It sucks.
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So in my mind, Adept gets his priority based powers and starts a game with a couple of power points ready to spend thanks to Special Attribute Point. Learning a spell (I assume is the same as Adept power) costs 5 karma, takes approx a week and costs some ¥NuYen.
Follow-up to my last post: I just searched the rules PDF and there is no place where it specifies how long it takes to learn a new power DURING play once you have a power point to spend. It seems reasonable that it would take some time, and maybe some money for a trainer, but I would argue it should not cost Karma because you would already have spent Karma and/or Adjustment points to get whatever it was to get that power point in the first place.
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Also, I agree with what others have said; if it really is the case that by increasing your Magic Rating at character generation you are permanently reducing the number of power points your character will ever earn, there needs to be a warning or other statement in the rules to this effect.
skalchemist, or is it skålchemist ? ;)
I am for sure mistaken in one thing, learning spells particularly mentions Sorcery and Enchanting as well and needing Magical Lodge.
I am new to Shadowrun, so please apologise me if I am wrong.
There is no cap on how many spells/formulas can character learn. Characters can potentially have Magic Attribute 1 and 20 spells as far as they devote time and costs related to this (5 karma, NuYen)
But Adept powers are gained only if the magic attribute increases (I assume it is because they are not tied to a skill like sorcery, conjuring, enchanting). On the other hand, Aspected Shaman can start with priority D, bump his Magic attribute and has ALL the spirits right of, while Adept has to pick A Priority to get 4 Power Points to start with.
So a pattern I observe here is that different magic abilities cost different amounts, which form my perspective could be unified (I don't know how this worked in previous editions). Than we possibly could avoid exceptions in rules.
Of course this is very easy to say and extremely hard to achieve, as relations between skills, attributes and costs are quite complex.
TL;DR
I think that you can easily accept both statements - that Adepts are limited for their number of starting abilities, but they can enter the game with floating Power Points acquired thanks to bumping the Magic attribute via Special Points.
Finally, there could be little bit more roleplay emphasis on learning the magic in general, so not only learning spells/enchantments/rituals but also learning for Adepts and Aspected Shamans even though they have different cost mechanisms.
And I totally agree with loosing Power Points when loosing Magic.
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But Adept powers are gained only if the magic attribute increases
In almost all cases it will be more economical to earn your first power point(s) post chargen from other sources than spending karma to raise your magic rating (which also mean that spending adjustment points on magic during chargen is actually much better than one might first think).
Non-mystic adepts (but not mystic adepts) gain a free power point whenever their magic rating is increased during game play. Raising magic rating cost new rating x 5 karma. Max magic rating is equal to 6 + current initiation level.
Both mystic adepts and non-mystic adepts may gain a power point whenever they initiate during game play (in place of a metamagic power). Initiation cost 10 + new initiation level karma (so 11 karma for the first time you initiate). Max initiation grade is equal to your current magic rating (your adjusted magic rating, not your unadjusted magic rating from magic or resonance priority). If your initiation level is higher than your current magic rating then your excess initiation levels will be lost (and with it the metamagic or power points you picked).
Both mystic adepts and non-mystic adepts may gain power points by binding qi foci during game play. While focus cannot be bound during chargen, focus can still be bought with resources during chargen and bound with karma post chargen (similar to how magicians may buy spell formula with resources during chargen and then learn the spell with karma post chargen). 1 point of magic (adjusted magic rating, not your unadjusted magic rating from magic or resonance priority) may be used to bind up to 1.25 power points and each power point bound in this manner effectively only have a flat cost of 8 karma.
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But Adept powers are gained only if the magic attribute increases
In almost all cases it will be more economical to earn your first power point(s) post chargen from other sources than spending karma to raise your magic rating (which also mean that spending adjustment points on magic during chargen is actually much better than one might first think).
Non-mystic adepts (but not mystic adepts) gain a free power point whenever their magic rating is increased during game play. Raising magic rating cost new rating x 5 karma. Max magic rating is equal to 6 + current initiation level.
Both mystic adepts and non-mystic adepts may gain a power point whenever they initiate during game play (in place of a metamagic power). Initiation cost 10 + new initiation level karma (so 11 karma for the first time you initiate). Max initiation grade is equal to your current magic rating (your adjusted magic rating, not your unadjusted magic rating from magic or resonance priority). If your initiation level is higher than your current magic rating then your excess initiation levels will be lost (and with it the metamagic or power points you picked).
Both mystic adepts and non-mystic adepts may gain power points by binding qi foci during game play. While focus cannot be bound during chargen, focus can still be bought with resources during chargen and bound with karma post chargen (similar to how magicians may buy spell formula with resources during chargen and then learn the spell with karma post chargen). 1 point of magic (adjusted magic rating, not your unadjusted magic rating from magic or resonance priority) may be used to bind up to 1.25 power points and each power point bound in this manner effectively only have a flat cost of 8 karma.
Thanks you for this! I have to read the rules again, but you solved my problem with roleplay orientation for progress and learning for an adept character.
Edit - As I am reading the rules, you still have to spend karma to increase Magic attribute, page 167 Note that the Magic rank does not increase automatically at initiation—you still must spend Karma to increase it.
Yes, the Qi binding works, I didn't thought about it.
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To me it mainly sounds like trying to math / work around an unclear and likely broken rule, that simply needs to be clarified and fixed instead.
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As I am reading the rules, you still have to spend karma to increase Magic attribute, page 167 Note that the Magic rank does not increase automatically at initiation—you still must spend Karma to increase it.
When you initiate then the Max magic rating increase by 1 (which mean you can have a magic rating above 6), but you don't need to spend karma to raise your magic rating to gain a power point.... When you initiate you get to pick a metamagic power. One of the metamagic powers you can choose as an adept is called Power Point.
If you are a non-mystic adept that have magic 6 and initiate for the first time for 11 karma you can get a power point from that. Now your max magic rating went from 6 to 7 and you have the option to spend another 5x7=35 karma to actually raise your current magic rating from 6 to 7 and raising your magic rating post chargen will give non-mystic adepts a free power point (but not mystic adepts). However, rather than spending 35 karma to raise your magic rating to gain a power point you might want to consider spending just 12 karma to initiate a second time and then 13 karma to initiate a third time. If you pick a power point in both cases you will end up with 2 new power points for a cost of 25 karma rather than a slightly higher magic rating and a power point for 35 karma. Unlike raising magic rating for power points, this also works for mystic adepts.
Or if you still don't have bound your max number of focus you could also consider spending karma to bind qi focus. Power points by binding qi focus only cost 8 karma per power point... and with a magic rating of 6 you can do this until you gain up to a total of 7.5 extra power points (60 karma) before you even need to consider initiating or raising your current magic rating. Unlike raising magic rating for power points, this also works for mystic adepts.
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To me it mainly sounds like trying to math / work around an unclear and likely broken rule, that simply needs to be clarified and fixed instead.
Agreed. I would LOVE to post some houserules and/or clarification, but for that the clear explicit contradiction needs to be fixed first.
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When you initiate then the Max magic rating increase by 1 (which mean you can have a magic rating above 6), but you don't need to spend karma to raise your magic rating to gain a power point.... When you initiate you get to pick a metamagic power. One of the metamagic powers you can choose as an adept is called Power Point.
If you are a non-mystic adept that have magic 6 and initiate for the first time for 11 karma you can get a power point from that. Now your max magic rating went from 6 to 7 and you have the option to spend another 5x7=35 karma to actually raise your current magic rating from 6 to 7 and raising your magic rating post chargen will give non-mystic adepts a free power point (but not mystic adepts). However, rather than spending 35 karma to raise your magic rating to gain a power point you might want to consider spending just 12 karma to initiate a second time and then 13 karma to initiate a third time. If you pick a power point in both cases you will end up with 2 new power points for a cost of 25 karma rather than a slightly higher magic rating and a power point for 35 karma. Unlike raising magic rating for power points, this also works for mystic adepts.
Or if you still don't have bound your max number of focus you could also consider spending karma to bind qi focus. Power points by binding qi focus only cost 8 karma per power point... and with a magic rating of 6 you can do this until you gain up to a total of 7.5 extra power points (60 karma) before you even need to consider initiating or raising your current magic rating. Unlike raising magic rating for power points, this also works for mystic adepts.
Now I understand! Thanks Xenon, I really appreciate it. Gonna heads up my Adept player on this and totally use this for creating NPCs'.
:)
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Wait, do I have this right that power points are now decoupled from Magic Rating? That I could have 7 pp but only 6 Magic?
I accept it may be RAW but is that also RAI?
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Post chargen, yes. Adepts gain PPs when their magic goes up and when the choose the +1PP initiation benefit. And of course, there's also Qi foci.
I don't think that's new tho; pretty sure that's all how it was in 5e too.
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I accept it may be RAW but is that also RAI?
Basically everything about how power points work should be ignored until more errata land. The strict rules as written right now are incoherent and bordering on unusable. We have no idea how it’s supposed to work right now.
But hey, we have a super active errata process now! All will be well! Although it’s been almost two months now since the book came out, so, err...
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Wait, do I have this right that power points are now decoupled from Magic Rating? That I could have 7 pp but only 6 Magic?
What do you mean? This is nothing new...
If you in SR5 have Magic 6, Initiate and pick Power Point as your metamagic you will end up with 7 pp but only 6 Magic as well.
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I never played 5.
So this is a continuation of a broken rule. Good lord.
No wonder people complain about Magicrun. Yikes. Just yikes.
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I never played 5.
So this is a continuation of a broken rule. Good lord.
No wonder people complain about Magicrun. Yikes. Just yikes.
Actually, I don't hate this (and I'm pretty down on MagicRun.) PhysAds have long had it quite tough in terms of advancement, compared to their augmented cousins. This lets then purchase PPs for a still-decent amount of karma, but they still have to choose the "give me PP" metamagick instead of any of the others, so it's not free.
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Wait, do I have this right that power points are now decoupled from Magic Rating? That I could have 7 pp but only 6 Magic?
I accept it may be RAW but is that also RAI?
Even before 5E, there was an (optional?) rule allowing PhysAds to buy power points separately. Is this really that different?
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Meh. It makes the Magic rating of the Adept almost fully pointless, whereas Magic for other classes is an actual measurement of power and ability (spell force, ability to tolerate drain, etc). Breaks the well-established logic entirely too.
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I mean, the whole thing used to be you initiate and with that you got a power and an attribute boost.
Then they broke it up to where you could do the two separately, which actually increases the total cost. However, you still had your power capped by the Magic rating. You always had to grow your Magic rating to get the new power point. It was on par with casters/conjurers. I don't recall seeing that optional ability in earlier editions to buy an extra power point, but its been years. Was it in 4e Grimoire or something?
Regardless, If you take that cap away, now adepts get to just initiate, and skip the Magic cost. They get a far greater boost that way, or so it seems to me.
I guess I don't see it a resource parity issue either. Where a Street Sam needs money, an Adept needs Karma. With the trade off during downtime mechanic, the Adept should be able to swap nuyen for karma well enough to catch up.
Feel free to Change My Mind. I lack some context.
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Mystic adepts don't gain power points from magic at all (beyond unadjusted magic from magic or resonance priority during chargen). Post chargen the only source of power points is from selecting it via initiation (and binding Qi).
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Yep that's basically it. Adepts are a variant form of Sammy that use the currency of karma rather than nuyen, and they have unlimited upwards mobility whereas the sammy has a hard cap of 6 essence. Furthermore, the Adept is able to toggle between powers by means of the Qi foci, whereas sammies can technically replace existing augmentations for different ones it's a much bigger deal for them.
These are reasons why I'm not so sure it's not completely intentional that Adepts only start with a cap of 4 PPs in chargen.
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As long as they can awaken the PP afterwards instead of suffering permanent damage, I'm fine with it as intent.
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I mean, the whole thing used to be you initiate and with that you got a power and an attribute boost.
Then they broke it up to where you could do the two separately, which actually increases the total cost. However, you still had your power capped by the Magic rating. You always had to grow your Magic rating to get the new power point. It was on par with casters/conjurers. I don't recall seeing that optional ability in earlier editions to buy an extra power point, but its been years. Was it in 4e Grimoire or something?
I do admit, now that I look for it, I can't find it in 4E (although I did find the suggestion to allow adepts to take a power point as their metamagic in Street Magic). So it might not have been an option there after all.
SR3 CRB allows adepts to purchase additional power points at a cost of 20 Good Karma, not even listed as an optional rule (p. 168, beginning of right column).
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Interesting. Shows my own ignorance I suppose. We didn't play much of 3. Mostly 1, 2 and 4. We'd learned the ways of 2 almost by rote, and characters rarely were played long enough to initiate, so perhaps that was part of it. Just feels like the Adept is bypassing a normal karma tax this way, with more bang for the investment.
Having a focus give you PP also just weirds me right out. Doesn't even make sense to me as a concept. Not asking for a defense of it, just sayin'. This really ain't my game any more.
*Makes old man noise*
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Having a focus give you PP also just weirds me right out. Doesn't even make sense to me as a concept. Not asking for a defense of it, just sayin'. This really ain't my game any more.
*Makes old man noise*
We can definitely agree on the focus thing. Doesn't make sense to me either.
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Having a focus give you PP also just weirds me right out. Doesn't even make sense to me as a concept. Not asking for a defense of it, just sayin'.
Regarding your previous post about Resources vs Karma, Focus giving a PP would actually make sense in the matter of how reward system works. Everyone is getting flat karma and flat NuYen for a successful run.
In pure numbers, Qi focus seems to me as a NuYen and karma based PP. This allows Adepts to fine tune their characters and use that NuYen. The mechanic to bind it, is similar to learning spells, so with hindsight and clarification made by Xenon, it feels like an attempt to unify the underlying mechanic of karma cost/nuyen vs gaining abilities.
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Regarding your previous post about Resources vs Karma, Focus giving a PP would actually make sense in the matter of how reward system works. Everyone is getting flat karma and flat NuYen for a successful run.
I don’t do that, actually. I award a flat pool of karma and another of Nuyen, and let the players divide them (unequally) in any ratio they choose. It’s a little clunky, but I like it better than the “trade Nuyen for karma / karma for Nuyen” system that Missions has.
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Everyone is getting flat karma and flat NuYen for a successful run.
I don’t do that, actually. I award a flat pool of karma and another of Nuyen, and let the players divide them (unequally) in any ratio they choose. It’s a little clunky, but I like it better than the “trade Nuyen for karma / karma for Nuyen” system that Missions has.
It is a reasonable idea penllawen. My though about how flat reward system works comes from the 6E, Running the game. But I like this one!
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It is a reasonable idea penllawen.
Thanks! I think GMs need to do something, because there's this big split between archetypes-that-need-karma and archetypes-that-need-nuyen. And this seems to me like the neatest solution.
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I mean, the whole thing used to be you initiate and with that you got a power and an attribute boost.
Then they broke it up to where you could do the two separately, which actually increases the total cost. However, you still had your power capped by the Magic rating. You always had to grow your Magic rating to get the new power point. It was on par with casters/conjurers. I don't recall seeing that optional ability in earlier editions to buy an extra power point, but its been years. Was it in 4e Grimoire or something?
Regardless, If you take that cap away, now adepts get to just initiate, and skip the Magic cost. They get a far greater boost that way, or so it seems to me.
I guess I don't see it a resource parity issue either. Where a Street Sam needs money, an Adept needs Karma. With the trade off during downtime mechanic, the Adept should be able to swap nuyen for karma well enough to catch up.
Feel free to Change My Mind. I lack some context.
I think why it started occurring is ware started to provide far far more than adept powers at char gen. It’s hilariously so in 6e. You can use all of your starting magic to get what is less than a 1/6th of what a street sam got. To boost your agility by 4 you’d need a rating 16 Qi focus. And that’s a mere.8 essence for street sam.
Edit to add what I really dislike about this is it really pushes adepts towards burnout and really just being street sams with some extras. It is imo damaging to the setting.
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I mean, the whole thing used to be you initiate and with that you got a power and an attribute boost.
Then they broke it up to where you could do the two separately, which actually increases the total cost. However, you still had your power capped by the Magic rating. You always had to grow your Magic rating to get the new power point. It was on par with casters/conjurers. I don't recall seeing that optional ability in earlier editions to buy an extra power point, but its been years. Was it in 4e Grimoire or something?
Regardless, If you take that cap away, now adepts get to just initiate, and skip the Magic cost. They get a far greater boost that way, or so it seems to me.
I guess I don't see it a resource parity issue either. Where a Street Sam needs money, an Adept needs Karma. With the trade off during downtime mechanic, the Adept should be able to swap nuyen for karma well enough to catch up.
Feel free to Change My Mind. I lack some context.
I think why it started occurring is ware started to provide far far more than adept powers at char gen. It’s hilariously so in 6e. You can use all of your starting magic to get what is less than a 1/6th of what a street sam got. To boost your agility by 4 you’d need a rating 16 Qi focus. And that’s a mere.8 essence for street sam.
Edit to add what I really dislike about this is it really pushes adepts towards burnout and really just being street sams with some extras. It is imo damaging to the setting.
Yes...if you were using the Qi Foci for Increased Attribute, it would be rating 16....that wouldn't be a rational action for someone to take. More realistically, someone would use Qi Foci to grab the Adept Powers that were .25, .5, or 1 PP increments, requiring a Foci of Rating 1-4 and getting full benefit of that power, freeing up the Power Points from CharGen and Initiation to be put into higher cost Adept Powers.
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I mean, the whole thing used to be you initiate and with that you got a power and an attribute boost.
Then they broke it up to where you could do the two separately, which actually increases the total cost. However, you still had your power capped by the Magic rating. You always had to grow your Magic rating to get the new power point. It was on par with casters/conjurers. I don't recall seeing that optional ability in earlier editions to buy an extra power point, but its been years. Was it in 4e Grimoire or something?
Regardless, If you take that cap away, now adepts get to just initiate, and skip the Magic cost. They get a far greater boost that way, or so it seems to me.
I guess I don't see it a resource parity issue either. Where a Street Sam needs money, an Adept needs Karma. With the trade off during downtime mechanic, the Adept should be able to swap nuyen for karma well enough to catch up.
Feel free to Change My Mind. I lack some context.
I think why it started occurring is ware started to provide far far more than adept powers at char gen. It’s hilariously so in 6e. You can use all of your starting magic to get what is less than a 1/6th of what a street sam got. To boost your agility by 4 you’d need a rating 16 Qi focus. And that’s a mere.8 essence for street sam.
Edit to add what I really dislike about this is it really pushes adepts towards burnout and really just being street sams with some extras. It is imo damaging to the setting.
Yes...if you were using the Qi Foci for Increased Attribute, it would be rating 16....that wouldn't be a rational action for someone to take. More realistically, someone would use Qi Foci to grab the Adept Powers that were .25, .5, or 1 PP increments, requiring a Foci of Rating 1-4 and getting full benefit of that power, freeing up the Power Points from CharGen and Initiation to be put into higher cost Adept Powers.
It has to come from somewhere. If you saved up enough to boost a attribute by 4 which is a totally normal action in a attribute+skill system especially when attributes are still clearly superior. So either you saved 4 magic worth by taking 16 force worth of multiple ki focuses or one really big ki focus. Depending on how background count works it’s hard to say which is the better choice. And even after 16 force worth of ki focus you still will be far far behind a street sam. Even after initiating a crap ton of times and boosting your magic so you can initiate more you will probably still be behind a street sam just on ware to powers. And the street sam has been bumping skills etc while you dropped a couple hundred karma just to catch up on the augmentation race. Without the initiation option you’d likely need close to a thousand karma to catch up in ware to a starting street sam.
Now a burn out is the best of both worlds. Setting concepts of magic and tech not mixing be damned.
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Getting attributes via chrome while getting stuff like heightened reflexes and spider sense from adept powers have been a Thing for quite some time now.
This is also true in SR6
Wired reflexes have the same essence cost as the improved reflexes power point cost, but essence is a limited resource while the source of power points, is not. Wired reflexes also cost roughly 100,000 nuyen per rating while improved reflexes cost roughly 8 karma and 12,000 nuyen per rating.
In SR6 it also seem as if physical adepts will get less punished for getting chrome (starting power points are based on unadjusted magic from magic or resonance, not adjusted magic from essence loss due to chrome - and post chargen physical adepts gain a free power point each time magic is increased but they don't seem to drop a power point each time magic is decreased from essence loss due to chrome).
This mean they could probably benefit from the best of both worlds. Getting stuff like attribute augmentations via chrome and stuff like reflex enhancements and spider sense via adept powers.
Since mystic adepts, on the other hand, have the power to summon spirits I don't really think having physical adepts compensating with augmentations is such a bad thing (considering).
Street Samurai - Heavy into augmentations (and more priority left for edge, attributes, skills, resources)
Burnout Adept - Power Point / Augmentation hybrid
Physical Adept - Heavy into Power Points, Qi focus and Weapon focus
Mystic Adept - Power Point / Magic hybrid
Magician - Heavy into Magic (and access to astral projection)
I actually find it odd that mystic adepts are not treated as aspected magicians (magicians that can only summon spirits or cast spells and also trade astral projection and free astral perception for the ability to get adept power points).
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I’d of preferred if mystic adepts were aspected. I think they have to jump through Less hoops trying to balance them then.
The issue with the pp to essence cost imbalance especially combined with limited magic loss from ware is it pushes a burnout adept as the best option. And it’s not even close. It’s been a issue with the magicrun idea for a while. And it’s counter to the setting in the fluff. The rules should help reinforce the setting not go against them. Early editions had it right until they inevitable would release geas which people could cheese.
Right now the balance of the physical archetypes is pure adept super sucker, street sam sucker, burnout best choice.(basically because the burnout gives up nothing he is the best of both worlds with no downsides) 4e 5e were similar in this I think 6e pushes it further as the costs for adept powers for the most part jumped.
Personally I’d rather they punish magically actives with ware more so burnout didn’t help much. Balance the ware to magic costs. And come up with better ways for ware on mundanes to grow and not be stopped at 6 essence. The most easy to balance option would be to give mundanes a way to increase their essence but then it just feels the same as magic which can be a issue for some. Another option would be to have ways to spend karma so ware didn’t cost essence for you a you fully adapted to it advancement. It would create essence hold to be filled again.
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Sorry for hijacking that topic, but I have only a short question regarding adepts:
is there a limit/maxlevel for powers such as combat sense or critical strike? I did not read any limitations.
Is there a passage anywhere in the core rulebook, that the augmented maximum +4 is universal valid for all attribute increases?
(another sorry for my bad English)
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The limit in older editions was Magic, but you're right that currently no limit is listed. Nothing is stopping you from stacking, asides from your actual PP.
As for augmented/adjusted max:
Various things modify attributes,
such as spells and gear, but a character’s
adjusted attribute can never be higher
than their current attribute rank +4.
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Xenon i have question.
CRB p.66 "Adepts have a pool of points equal to their Magic (as listed in the Priority table, before any adjustments)
CRB p.156 "Whenever adept characters gain a point of Magic, they also gain a power point." and "Power points do not need to be spent when they are obtained; characters can hold on to them and use them when ready."
I have 4 PP at chargen proces for "free" p.66, afer this i spend a adjustment point for raising my magic from 4 to 6, allways in chargen. So a get 2 PP, because my magic is raised, p.156. This power point i can use any time , why not in char gen or after chargen is closed p.156.
When i Donnt spent adjustment point in chargen and increase magic wia Karma, that applies what you wrote.
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Under RAW, in chargen you do NOT gain PP from raising Magic. The clear clash between the rules is why we are eagerly awaiting errata.
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p. 66 describe how it work during chargen.
(mystic adepts as well as non-mystic adepts adjusting their magic by spending customization karma on magic or spending adjustment points on magic will not affect the number of power points they get during chargen, only unadjusted magic rating from magic or resonance counts).
p. 156 describe how it work post chargen.
(non-mystic adepts, but not mystic adepts, spending regular post chargen karma to raise magic after they left chargen will give them a free power point that they may spend on an adept power or save for later and save when they know what they wish to spend it on).
The above might or might not change in upcoming errata, but this is how the rules seem to work right now at least.
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I understand.
But raising magic is still raising magic.
Next.
CRB p.130
Learning Magic.
"New spells, rituals, or alchemical preparations can be learned by studying spell formulae or finding some mentor"
Not Adept powers.
At Adept section is not mentioned (IMO, maybe im wrong), what new APs cost.
I understand that rules creators saves pages in RB, but this only one world or one row and all be clear. Nothing wrong, I like this game. Im waiting for new errata, i hope that its be early. :-)
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For an Adept the Karma cost for 1 Power Point after chargen is:
8 if you bind them into a Qi focus.
10 + New Initiation Grade if you use them to initiate and pick power point as your metamagic.
5 x New Magic Rating if you use use them to raise Magic.
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Not Power Points but Adept Powers.
I have enough PP and i can learn a new Adept Power like Killing Hands.
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Not Power Points but Adept Powers.
What do you mean by that?
The cost I listed is for Power Points (not Adept Powers).
Power Points you can use to buy Adept Powers with.
Many Adept Powers cost less than 1 full Power Point.
There are no other way to 'learn' an Adept Power.
The Adept Power section mention how many Power Points each Adept Power cost.
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i understand.
I have at star Magic 4. i have 8 spells.
As adept i have Power points 4 and i can purshase Adept powers to 4.
After game start, I spend 25 Karma and increase Magic to 5. Now i can spend next 5 Karma for a new spell, when im Magician.
As adept i spend 25 Karma increase Magic to 5 and as rule say my Power points are 5 too. Now a can add next Adept power to remained+new PP freely or like spell i have to spend some Karma for a new Adept power?
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Non-mystic Adept powers ( I will use Xenon's distinction) are gained without the necessity to spend additional karma to learn. So no, you don't need to spend 5 Karma to "learn" adept power after you successfully raised your magic rating and gained a Power Point.
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How you train new spells and how you gain new power points are resolved in different ways.
I have at star Magic 4. i have 8 spells.
Right.
With magic or resonance A as a full magician you will have an unadjusted magic rating of 4 which mean you get 8 spells or rituals for free. This only apply to full magicians (not adepts, mystic adepts, aspected magicians or technomancers).
For example Improved Invisibility + Healing + Elemental Armor + Increase Attribute + Levitate + Lightning Bolt + Power Bolt.
As adept i have Power points 4 and i can purshase Adept powers to 4.
Right.
With magic or resonance A as an Adept you will have an unadjusted magic rating of 4 which mean you get 4 power points for free that you can buy adept powers with. This only apply to adepts (not mystic adepts, magicians, aspected magicians or technomancers).
For example Combat Sense 0.5 points + Improved Reflexes II 2.0 points + Improved Ability (Con) 0.5 points + Rapid Healing 0.5 points + Vocal Control 0.5 points = 4.0 points.
After game start, I spend 25 Karma and increase Magic to 5. Now i can spend next 5 Karma for a new spell, when im Magician.
After game start as a full magicain you can train any number of spells for 5 karma each.
Your current magic rating is not part of the equation. There is no limitation here like it is for power points.
You don't need to raise your magic to 5 in order to buy more spells as a magician.
(but since Magic rating is part of the spellcasting test you probably want to have a high magic rating anyway).
This also applies to aspected magicians and mystic adepts, but not adepts or technomancers.
As adept i spend 25 Karma increase Magic to 5 and as rule say my Power points are 5 too.
You get one extra power point because you increased your magic rating, yes.
...but there are a lot of cases your number of power points will not be the same as your current magic rating.
You could for example instead just spend 11 karma to initiate and when you initiate you get to pick a metamagic.
As adept you can choose to pick the metamagic "Power Point (Adept Only)" rather than another metamagic.
This way you would end up still having a current magic rating of 4 but now you would have 5 power points.
This only apply for adepts (not mystic adepts, full magicians, aspected magicians or technomancers).
Now a can add next Adept power to remained+new PP freely or like spell i have to spend some Karma for a new Adept power?
It does not cost karma to convert a power point into adept powers once you already have the power point.
(It is sometimes a bit hard to follow what you are actually typing. Have you considered using built in spell check of the browser and set it to English? I am also not native English speaking and I find it help me a lot when I am unsure about spelling).
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You can simply spend Power Points to pick up an Adept Power. There's no learning procedures involved: Just spend the points.