Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: taukarrie on <09-30-19/1050:16>
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I dont see anything in the ammo section or in most of the gun descriptions about what kind of ammo can be used. I know that the slivergun has its own special flechette ammo that I assume is somehow different form regular flechette and I assume it cant use other types. And the Panther has specific assault cannon ammo that, again, I assume cant be swapped out. Also, the books states that all shotguns are listed with basic slug ammo instead of flechette for some reason.
So beyond that I dont see any text that suggests any gun in particular is prohibited from using certain types of ammo. So are basically all guns able to fire any type of ammo unless stated otherwise in their descriptions?
Also, shotguns seem kind of weak at close/short range compared to the rifles. Theres a little bit more AR for a shotgun at close range in exchange for 0 long/extreme range but thats about it. Firing a shotgun at close range should feel.. better. I think increase all shotgun DV by 1 and close and short range AR by 2 and assume flechette as base stats ammo instead of slugs.
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So beyond that I dont see any text that suggests any gun in particular is prohibited from using certain types of ammo. So are basically all guns able to fire any type of ammo unless stated otherwise in their descriptions?
Pretty much, yes. By RAW, the Slivergun has a note in it's description that limits it to custom ammo that counts-as Flechette, but for almost every other firearm (except exotics) you can freely choose which ammunition type to use.
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The Slivergun
fires metal slivers that count as flechette ammunition
and are bought as such, but they aren’t
interchangeable with any other flechette weapon.
Assault cannon
Big rounds for assault cannons. They’re the
only thing assault cannons can load, and they can’t
be modified with other types.
Ammo
Ammunition is defined by type (regular, gel,
APDS, etc.), class of firearm (light pistol, heavy pistol,
assault rifle, etc.) and is considered cased unless
the caseless option is purchased
So yes, all except AC and Slivergun can use all types normally. As for shotguns: People brought that up before, but like you're already mentioning, default stats are for slugs, not flechette. So it shouldn't be shotguns you should boost, but flechette ammo that you want more complex mechanics for than a generic AR/DV modifier. I can understand they didn't include those, but nothing's stopping you from adding an extra attack mode only available within 20 meters that lets you BF-mode an SA flechette gun.
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Also, shotguns seem kind of weak at close/short range compared to the rifles. Theres a little bit more AR for a shotgun at close range in exchange for 0 long/extreme range but thats about it. Firing a shotgun at close range should feel.. better. I think increase all shotgun DV by 1 and close and short range AR by 2 and assume flechette as base stats ammo instead of slugs.
Yeah, this discussion/debate has been run through a few times. I agree that shotguns by RAW feel underwhelming. I really don't think they should have a medium range bracket at all, but get either a DV boost or a rule that negates the DV penalty for using flechette ammo. Also, I would like to see them use SA and BF modes for half the ammo cost (1 shell for SA, and 2 shells for BF), but we'll just have to wait for the second errata to drop and see how things fall.
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I think this is legacy issue held over from earlier editions.
Shotguns haven't really received the attention they should have over the edition changes, as they still have the base damage code from when SR used different armor numbers for Ballistic and Impact armors...
Way back in the old days of SR, we had 2 different armor values to stop different damage types. And by design, it was possible to "stack" stack armors, to buff both values separately....
And then ammo, had an effect on the various types of armor....
Back then, ballistic armor was used against all projectile damage... EXCEPT flechette! Flechette ammo was stopped by impact armor, which was generally lower then ballistic.
(and really... this makes sense when you look at military weapons development in the 80s and 90s when SR was being designed. Back then Flechette ammo was being developed to bypass the military Kevlar jackets that most militaries issued back then.... And then ceramic plated armor was developed to stop flechettes... and the cycle continues)
I guess a better question is, "what do you expect a shotgun to do in SR?"...
Even in law enforcement, the shotgun is widely falling out of favor due to its limitations, and only really sees deployment as a back-up weapon for police cruisers (which is commonly becoming the M4 platform) and as a breeching tool for door lock/hinge removal...
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[...] a breeching tool for door lock/hinge removal...
That would be a cool rule. Remington: aggressively unlocking doors since 2043!
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I think this is legacy issue held over from earlier editions.
Shotguns haven't really received the attention they should have over the edition changes, as they still have the base damage code from when SR used different armor numbers for Ballistic and Impact armors...
Way back in the old days of SR, we had 2 different armor values to stop different damage types. And by design, it was possible to "stack" stack armors, to buff both values separately....
And then ammo, had an effect on the various types of armor....
Back then, ballistic armor was used against all projectile damage... EXCEPT flechette! Flechette ammo was stopped by impact armor, which was generally lower then ballistic.
(and really... this makes sense when you look at military weapons development in the 80s and 90s when SR was being designed. Back then Flechette ammo was being developed to bypass the military Kevlar jackets that most militaries issued back then.... And then ceramic plated armor was developed to stop flechettes... and the cycle continues)
I guess a better question is, "what do you expect a shotgun to do in SR?"...
Even in law enforcement, the shotgun is widely falling out of favor due to its limitations, and only really sees deployment as a back-up weapon for police cruisers (which is commonly becoming the M4 platform) and as a breeching tool for door lock/hinge removal...
I think the main draw of using a shotgun IRL is the variety of rounds that can be used with it, from pellet shot, to slugs, to flechettes, to bean bags, to tasers , to incendiary, to frag grenades, to glass shot, to a bunch of dimes or rusty nails... pretty much anything that will fit in a shell and can clear the barrel. In SR, most of these options are available to most guns, so there has never really been a reason to take a shotgun.
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I think this is legacy issue held over from earlier editions.
Shotguns haven't really received the attention they should have over the edition changes, as they still have the base damage code from when SR used different armor numbers for Ballistic and Impact armors...
Way back in the old days of SR, we had 2 different armor values to stop different damage types. And by design, it was possible to "stack" stack armors, to buff both values separately....
And then ammo, had an effect on the various types of armor....
Back then, ballistic armor was used against all projectile damage... EXCEPT flechette! Flechette ammo was stopped by impact armor, which was generally lower then ballistic.
(and really... this makes sense when you look at military weapons development in the 80s and 90s when SR was being designed. Back then Flechette ammo was being developed to bypass the military Kevlar jackets that most militaries issued back then.... And then ceramic plated armor was developed to stop flechettes... and the cycle continues)
I guess a better question is, "what do you expect a shotgun to do in SR?"...
Even in law enforcement, the shotgun is widely falling out of favor due to its limitations, and only really sees deployment as a back-up weapon for police cruisers (which is commonly becoming the M4 platform) and as a breeching tool for door lock/hinge removal...
I think the main draw of using a shotgun IRL is the variety of rounds that can be used with it, from pellet shot, to slugs, to flechettes, to bean bags, to tasers , to incendiary, to frag grenades, to glass shot, to a bunch of dimes or rusty nails... pretty much anything that will fit in a shell and can clear the barrel. In SR, most of these options are available to most guns, so there has never really been a reason to take a shotgun.
Some of that stuff is ... just insane to inane to load through what is essentially a directed bomb... (doesn't mean the insane and inane don't do it though).
And sadly, SR doesn't get THAT precise with their ammos either...
and some of those ammo types are available for other modern firearms as well. (birdshot and flechette)
don't remember a grenade round that could be fired from a shotgun... what book was that from?
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That reminds me, I need to design a houserule mechanic for anti-barrier shotgun slugs.
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That reminds me, I need to design a houserule mechanic for anti-barrier shotgun slugs.
Discarding sabot slug with a single large tungsten flechette that drops cover rating?
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Keep it simple;
"Breaching Rounds: The base DV is considered to be X when an attempt to break through a barrier is made with Breaching Rounds (see page 112 for details). *"
* Maximum range is 3 meters
Structure Ratings go from 1 to 20, and base DV of shotguns are in the 4-5P category; you can normally penetrate anything from paper and glass to plaster and plastiboard, as well as solid wood doors and chainlink with a regular shotgun. With breaching rounds, if you made X=8 you would be able to put a 1-2 cm hole in ballistic glass (SR9), densiplast (10), armored glass (11), kevlar wallboard (13), and even security doors (16). These rounds would obviously be highly illegal...
Tweak as necessary for your table; make X anywhere from 6 to 10 to alter the amount of punch these things would have. It's a simple implementation that require no additional math and no supplemental rule changes.
Edit:
Alternatively, just use the rules for Specialized melee weapons which already have a specific rule.
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The problem is that those use Strength, and you can't convince me you can bruteforce a gunshot into a barrier.
Found the bullets in SR4:
Shock lock rounds are designed to shatter a door’s lock or
hinge and halve the Barrier ratings of doors or similar barriers when
used to destroy them (see Destroying Barriers, p. 157, SR4). Against
other targets, treat shock lock rounds as standard explosive rounds.
So halving the Structure would work (and means the better the shotgun, the better the rounds). And yes, should be highly illegal. In SR4 they were 10F so here I'd expect ~5I as converted availability. The pricetag of 70 nuyen instead of 20, could stand here as well (so x3.5 modifier, and Shotgun-only).
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Half the barrier rating or Base DV of 8 accomplishes roughly the same thing, incidentally, but the former will give some variance based on shotgun type. The roomsweeper, notably, has a DV of 5P which I'm not sure is intended given it's description; maybe with flechettes, but loading breaching rounds into a sawed-off double-barreled shotgun with a pistol grip seems counter-intuitive.
I would prefer a flat effect regardless of shotgun type, but we're deep into houserule territory here anyway, so.
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[L]oading breaching rounds into a sawed-off double-barreled shotgun with a pistol grip seems counter-intuitive.
I dunno, that's more or less exactly the Knight's Armament Company Masterkey shotgun: it was essentially little more than a Remington 870 12-gauge pump-action shotgun mounted on an M16 assault rifle or M4 carbine as an underbarrel attachment. The M26 Modular Accessory Shotgun System (MASS) and Ciener Ultimate Over/Under system work on the same basic principle.
KAC's Masterkey only has a barrel length of about 7½" so it's not much bigger than the Remington Roomsweeper. I've always understood the Roomsweeper to basically be Max Rockatansky's sawn-off shotgun from the Mad Max franchise, although he actually has a different "real world" gun as the basis for the prop in each film: a sawn-off VG Bentley in Mad Max, another sawn-off VG Bentley in The Road Warrior but with a different grip and trigger-guard, a sawn-off Rossi Overland 12-gauge in Thunderdome (distinctive for its exposed hammers), and a a sawn-off Victor Sarasqueta 20-guage shotgun in Fury Road. All four weapons are approximately the same size and you'd have to be a pretty big nerd to even realize they were different... You'd have to be a massive nerd to track down the specific models. :D
The US military uses the M1030 breaching round, a 12-gauge 2¾" shell which uses a 40 gram projectile made of powdered steel, bound in wax. Typically fired at a range of 6" or less, although it will still do the job from 18-24" against most doors... It isn't meant to be fired at people, but it is absolutely lethal if fired at a human at such close ranges.
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My comment about the Roomsweeper doing more damage with Breacher Rounds was not based on a comparison to actual, real-world firearms, Ajax.
Instead, it was based on the stat block and description of the Remington Roomsweeper, which states that:
Double-barreled and pistol gripped makes this little beast bad news when it slips out of a pocket. If you’re not a fan of flechette shooters, load some Heavy Pistol rounds into a Roomsweeper and she shoots like a really inaccurate hand cannon.
The implication is that the Roomsweeper has a DV of 5P because it loads flechettes, unlike the profiles for other shotguns which are stated as:
The stats for these shotguns are for normal slug rounds.
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I read the 5P as inaccurate hand cannon stats, not Flechette stats. That section simply means to me that the Roomsweeper uses Heavy Pistol rounds explicitly.
Note that the Slivergun mentions it uses flechette rounds in its table-stats (f). It's the only weapon doing so.
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Heavy Pistols are 3P, with the exception of the Ruger Super Warhawk, which is described as "shiny and chrome and makes holes the size of a troll’s fist straight out of the box", and the Ares Viper Slivergun, which uses "metal slivers that count as flechette ammunition and are bought as such, but they aren’t interchangeable with any other flechette weapon". Both of these weapons are +1 DV over the other Heavy Pistols.
This is similar to the Remington Roomsweeper being the only weapon rated at 5P, whereas all other shotguns are 4P.
I believe this has been discussed in several other threads, including the change blindness thread, as flechette ammo does -1 DV unlike the Slivergun (and potentially the Roomsweeper, depending on your reading). I don't think there is conclusive evidence either way, but based on the Slivergun I lean towards the Roomsweeper having +1 DV as Flechette was +DV and +AV in past editions.
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The Roomsweeper doesn't have flechette ammo as base damage: Flechette notation is (f), and where the Slivergun is 4P(f), the Roomsweeper simply is 5P.
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The Roomsweeper doesn't have flechette ammo as base damage: Flechette notation is (f), and where the Slivergun is 4P(f), the Roomsweeper simply is 5P.
Partially incorrect. Hey, I get to correct MC for once :)
p. 262, Flechette Ammo
Note that (fl) is the abbreviation for this type of ammo.
And yes; the Slivergun does specifically state that it uses Flechette, but the description of the roomsweeper indicates that it does, too. As far as I can tell, the only difference between the Roomsweeper and the other shotguns when it comes to Damage Value is that the Roomsweeper mentions flechette and heavy pistol rounds.
Heavy pistol rounds are not inherently more damaging than shotgun slugs (shotguns with slugs are 4P, most Heavy Pistols are 3P with the exception of the Slivergun and the Ruger Super Warhawk). Given that both the Roomsweeper and Slivergun mention Flechettes, and Flechettes in past editions were +1 DV, it is therefore possible that the profiles for the Roomsweeper and Sliverguns were written before ammunition stats were finalized.
Bottom line, ammo types for some weapons are borked.
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The Roomsweeper doesn't have flechette ammo as base damage: Flechette notation is (f), and where the Slivergun is 4P(f), the Roomsweeper simply is 5P.
Partially incorrect. Hey, I get to correct MC for once :)
p. 262, Flechette Ammo
Note that (fl) is the abbreviation for this type of ammo.
That's after errata, though. In unerrata'd CRB, "The payload of a flechette (f)" on p262 and "4P(f)" on p255 both use (f), errata update both (probably because (f) is reserved for fire). Note that the errata do not mention changing the Roomsweeper's damage code, which still is 5P, not 5P(f) or 5P(fl).