Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: taukarrie on <10-03-19/1135:59>
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I know that the rigger/decker's hardware is the gatekeeper of the network and that everyone becomes vulnerable once that wall has been knocked down. My question about how this looks when it happens. If Im a hacker trying to diable a streetsam's smartgun when he's in the room with me but his commlink is slaved to his rigger's RCC 100 meters away what am i seeing in AR/VR when i attempt to target this streetsam?
Lets say I discover his persona with a matrix perception check and i get a bunch of successes so i also see that his gun is currently running its smartlink so next i dataspike the gun. I dont know at this point that hes slaved on his rigger's RCC so what happens next? do i do my dataspike against the RCC's firewall and not even realize it? Or do i somehow know that the streetsam's commlink is slaved and that im actually cracking against an RCC 100 meters away, suddenly experiencing some unexpected noise? Is there a way to use Trace Icon to determine the location of the rigger?
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Mechanically: Your Dataspike resolves against the gun. But the gun gets to substitute better values from the PAN master device and the rigger/decker's mental stats.
Visually/Thematically: Well, everyone's avatars and matrix paradigms basically follow the rule of cool. Are you Zeus, and your Data Spike looks like thrown lightning bolts? Are you Clint Eastwood and your Data Spikes are bullets from a revolver? The same sort of questions apply to the defending persona. Is he Captain America and throws a Shield in the way of your Data Spike? Is he a techno-wizard and infuses the gun with a digital protective aura? No answers are wrong; no answers are inherently correct.
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Mechanically: Your Dataspike resolves against the gun. But the gun gets to substitute better values from the PAN master device and the rigger/decker's mental stats.
Visually/Thematically: Well, everyone's avatars and matrix paradigms basically follow the rule of cool. Are you Zeus, and your Data Spike looks like thrown lightning bolts? Are you Clint Eastwood and your Data Spikes are bullets from a revolver? The same sort of questions apply to the defending persona. Is he Captain America and throws a Shield in the way of your Data Spike? Is he a techno-wizard and infuses the gun with a digital protective aura? No answers are wrong; no answers are inherently correct.
quite familiar with the rule of cool stuff. my main question here is if hackers become aware of their targets' matrix overwatch buddy when they try to hack those targets, even if that overwatch is not nearby. And also if that overwatch's location can be traced through the people he's slaving commlinks for
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I think to get a real answer for that questions we have to hope for Errata.
SR6 Core p.173 Matrix Access and PANs
[...]Generally speaking, in order to get to a device attached to a PAN, one must first gain access to that PAN.[...]
This could mean the Hacker has first to use Brute Force to gain "User" access (which he would gain automatically on the "master Device" protecting the PAN)
With that User access he could be now an "Outsider" (Matrix Actions that allow Outsider Access) for all Devices in the PAN.
In that case your question would be answered as the Hacker can use Brute Force as well to get Admin Access on the master Device and Admin Access allows the "Trace Icon" Matrix Action.
I think that might be RAI or even RAW.
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Interesting question.
The CRB only talks about PANs:
Programs and devices attached to the PAN appear as smaller representations of their normal icons, carried by the persona.
The question that springs to mind is; does slaving the PAN of one user to a device like a cyberdeck create a new PAN?
If the answer to that is yes, then the icons of the samurai's PAN "appear as smaller representations of their normal icons, carried by the persona" of the decker.
I think the answer is no, to be honest, because the samurai is still running a persona that his PAN is attached to. The icons may be hidden by virtue of being protected by the decker, but ultimately, the samurai's PAN and his icons are still attached to his persona and so would appear near the device his persona is formed on.
In other words; if someone makes a Matrix Perception Test (Electronics + Intuition) and beats their opponent (Willpower + Sleaze) then the previously hidden persona and icon(s) are revealed.
If you think of the persona as the "wireless signal" (p 178), then all a hacker is doing is obscuring that signal and hiding it in the overall data stream of the Matrix. He's not actually subverting the icon into his own persona.
Or am I massively overthinking this? I just feel that if all it takes to completely and utterly hide your icons from Matrix Perception is to slave it to a decker 1000 miles away, then the rules serve no purpose. The alternative option is to treat hiding in the Matrix like hiding in the physical world; your Stealth roll hides you while you move, but if an observer beats your roll with their Perception roll then the jig is up and you are spotted.
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And also if that overwatch's location can be traced through the people he's slaving commlinks for
This definitely requires getting Admin access to the device providing the overwatch in the first place, as per the Trace Icon action on page 184.
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And also if that overwatch's location can be traced through the people he's slaving commlinks for
This definitely requires getting Admin access to the device providing the overwatch in the first place, as per the Trace Icon action on page 184.
True enough. Its just that ive heard around these forums is that hacking through the overwatch's defenses gets you access to everyone slaved to him. So if a decker is slaving his 5 teammates and you probe your way to admin status you can at that point do whatever you want with any devices used by those 5 teammates. The question I would have there is do you automatically know all wireless devices used by all of those teammates or do you have to perceive each persona to get that info. I would think if the network is designed so that the decker is the host and the teammates are considered nodes on that host you, with admin status, would know all about that particular PAN. Or maybe it makes more sense to think of each teammates as a device on the decker's PAN. Then if you want to brick someone's smartgun youre talking about attacking a device within a device.. this seemed simpler before i asked the question.
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Admin access is not becoming the admin. Just because you have the proverbial keys, it doesn't mean you suddenly know everything there is to know. Still have to do Matrix Perception, or quite possibly, Hash Checks (if you're looking for files), to discover details about devices/hosts you've hacked.
Got admin access to someone's commlink? It doesn't mean you get automatic permissions into the contact list or photo album. Access level just says whether or not you can even attempt the given matrix action. It doesn't mean anything more than that.
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Admin access is not becoming the admin. Just because you have the proverbial keys, it doesn't mean you suddenly know everything there is to know. Still have to do Matrix Perception, or quite possibly, Hash Checks (if you're looking for files), to discover details about devices/hosts you've hacked.
Got admin access to someone's commlink? It doesn't mean you get automatic permissions into the contact list or photo album. Access level just says whether or not you can even attempt the given matrix action. It doesn't mean anything more than that.
So in the scenario where a decker is in a room with a streetsam and the streetsam is slaved on a rigger RCC 200 meters away.. the decker wants to hack that streetsam's commlink but has no knowledge of the rigger at all so he starts looking for that streetsam's persona with matrix perception. Since that streetsam's commlink is slaved does that mean the decker wont be able to find the persona until he figures out that theres a rigger down the street slaving it? Does the hacker find the persona as expected but just uses the rigger's firewall, remaining unaware of the rigger? Or is the persona invisible until the hacker learns about the rigger and targets him instead?
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It's my understanding that the only impact, mechanically, is the device's dice pool is modified by being defended. There's no change in order of operations, who yo have to spot, and etc. Other than the defending dice pool being different, the process is identical whether the Sammie is defended by the Rigger or not.
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Ok, lot of stuff to respond to here so hopefully I capture it all
Spotting ... you would be able to see the street Sam's network but also know he is part of a larger network with enough successes so you know he is defended
Access ... remember that "outisder" access is just that ... you are outside of the network so there is no need to do anything to gain it .. dataspike until your satisfied
Dataspike the gun or commlink... yes you can do so directly as long as you can detect it ... if protected by the decker/rigger it would gain the benefit of that defenders firewall defense even if it's far away ... unless they are so far away that they lose connection (ie noise)
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@Banshee
Great that just answered another question i had for a while :) regarding how far spread a PAN can be.
But now a follow up question for the writer of the Chapter :D
With Satellite Uplinks PANs can theoretically spread over the whole world ?
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@Banshee
Great that just answered another question i had for a while :) regarding how far spread a PAN can be.
But now a follow up question for the writer of the Chapter :D
With Satellite Uplinks PANs can theoretically spread over the whole world ?
Yes, but I would rule that if connected multiple mobile networks that you need an uplink on each end I think
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Makes sense, thank you Banshee :)
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Dataspike the gun or commlink... yes you can do so directly as long as you can detect it ... if protected by the decker/rigger it would gain the benefit of that defenders firewall defense even if it's far away ... unless they are so far away that they lose connection (ie noise)
Rather than track condition monitor damage, I would rather apply a Status effect to the device and simply apply a staged ongoing penalty, such as -2/-4/bricked. Do you see any issue with that approach? Or does that break something?
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This could mean the Hacker has first to use Brute Force to gain "User" access (which he would gain automatically on the "master Device" protecting the PAN)
With that User access he could be now an "Outsider" (Matrix Actions that allow Outsider Access) for all Devices in the PAN.
As I understands it, in this edition you don't gain access on individual devices as you did in earlier editions, you just gain User access on the entire 'network' with all its devices at once.
When attacking a device you basically only need to figure out which 'network' it belong to (and with it the host, commlink, RCC or datajack that will defend it).
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This could mean the Hacker has first to use Brute Force to gain "User" access (which he would gain automatically on the "master Device" protecting the PAN)
With that User access he could be now an "Outsider" (Matrix Actions that allow Outsider Access) for all Devices in the PAN.
As I understands it, in this edition you don't gain access on individual devices as you did in earlier editions, you just gain User access on the entire 'network' with all its devices at once.
When attacking a device you basically only need to figure out which 'network' it belong to (and with it the host, commlink, RCC or datajack that will defend it).
Yes, I missed this part earlier.
Access is based on network not devices as Xenon says
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Dataspike the gun or commlink... yes you can do so directly as long as you can detect it ... if protected by the decker/rigger it would gain the benefit of that defenders firewall defense even if it's far away ... unless they are so far away that they lose connection (ie noise)
Rather than track condition monitor damage, I would rather apply a Status effect to the device and simply apply a staged ongoing penalty, such as -2/-4/bricked. Do you see any issue with that approach? Or does that break something?
Kind of depends on how you determine results I guess... ultimately depends on your group though. Try it and see, but I wouldn't say it breaks anything immediately
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The question that springs to mind is; does slaving the PAN of one user to a device like a cyberdeck create a new PAN?
While Banshee's intention was that you could basically include an unlimited amount of devices in your own personal area network, rule-wise, however, it seem as if you can only slave a very small number of devices in your PAN and in your PAN you typically only have one commlink, deck/cyberjack or RCC acting as a 'gateway' to provide matrix attributes for you and your wireless devices inside the wireless network.
SR6 p. 173
These are networks composed of a commlink and/or a deck, with a small number of devices slaved behind it.
SR6 p. 174
Data Processing is also effective in determining the number of devices that can be slaved to it.
SR6 p. 197
An RCC can have a number of slaved drones equal to its Rating x 3.
SR6 p. 267
Commlinks can have a maximum number of “slaves” equal to their Data Processing.
I think the answer is no, to be honest, because the samurai is still running a persona that his PAN is attached to. The icons may be hidden by virtue of being protected by the decker, but ultimately, the samurai's PAN and his icons are still attached to his persona and so would appear near the device his persona is formed on.
Pretty sure all devices have their own icons no matter if they belong to a personal area network, a wide area network or don't belong to any 'network' at all.
Dataspike also don't require any access on the personal area network at all.
You just spike whatever icon you wish (but if the icon is part of a larger network then it might still use matrix attributes of the one commlink, cyberdeck/cyberjack, rcc or host which act as the 'gateway' of the network).
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Pretty sure all devices have their own icons no matter if they belong to a personal area network, a wide area network or don't belong to any 'network' at all.
Possibly. The CRB only talks about PANs:
Programs and devices attached to the PAN appear as smaller representations of their normal icons, carried by the persona.
That doesn't say that the device icons disappear, only that they appear as being carried by the persona.
This comes back to the eternal question of "what do I see in AR/VR"?
The above could be read either as:
1. When a device icon becomes part of a PAN, it is subsumed by the persona and appears as a smaller representation of itself being carried by the persona.
or
2. Devices that are part of a PAN appear both on their devices as usual, and as a small representation of itself carried by the persona.
Dataspike also don't require any access on the personal area network at all.
You just spike whatever icon you wish (but if the icon is part of a larger network then it might still use matrix attributes of the one commlink, cyberdeck/cyberjack, rcc or host which act as the 'gateway' of the network).
I agree. I just don't necessarily think Dataspike is the best use of your resources, from an action economy perspective. Unless you can reliably inflict 9+ DV (after device resistance) it will take two major actions just to brick one device; screwing with equipment through spoof command or edit file can have immediate effects and force your opponents to spend their own actions reacting to you.
Tactically, I personally prefer the latter in a combat situation.
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This comes back to the eternal question of "what do I see in AR/VR"?
I will see the icon of your wireless enabled smartgun and your wireless enabled car and all your other wireless enabled devices no matter if they are part of your personal area network or not. Not sure why you think the size of the icon seem to matter....?
If your personal area network (you commlink - or whatever data processing enabled device you are using as a 'gateway' for your 'network') is running silent then I first need to take an opposed matrix perception test to spot it.
I just don't necessarily think Dataspike is the best use of your resources, from an action economy perspective. Unless you can reliably inflict 9+ DV (after device resistance) it will take two major actions just to brick one device; screwing with equipment through spoof command or edit file can have immediate effects and force your opponents to spend their own actions reacting to you.
It depend on the situation.
In this edition it is no longer is a free action to turn off wireless for all your wireless enabled devices, every 3 box of matrix damage cause a negative dice pool modifier of 1 dice when using the device, unlike previous edition (where the firewall retaliated on failed attack actions) in this edition most people (pretty much anyone that isn't a decker or technomancer) don't have any way to fight back anyway and normally only the user's commlink have a firewall rating (so if you brick that one.......)
Not sure what you think Edit file would accomplish as rewriting the boot code (for example) is the Format Device action (which require Admin access) rather than the Edit File action (which only require User access), but this action also often need to be followed up with a Reboot Device action (which also require admin access).
The Edit File action seem to be mostly used when messing with file icons rather than device icons. Such as editing out the team of the live feed file icon as they walk pass a security camera. Unlike Data spike, the Action also cannot be used unless you have User access to the 'network' where the file is you wish to Edit.
Spoof Command could be useful when for example instructing the on-board autopilot of an enemy drone to open fire on the opposing team, but this doesn't really work if the opposing rigger is already remote controlling the drone...
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@ Xenon
Because the PAN section is ambiguous?
It's not the size of the icon that matters as much as the fact that icons that are part of your PAN appear as if they are carried by your persona according to the CRB.
What, exactly, that means is not black and white. Feel free to disagree with me, but there is no need to treat my opinion as if it's completely nonsensical when there is clearly some ambiguity in the phrasing.
As for action economy; you're right, I forgot that Edit File requires user access, so this would not be a great option in combat. But nowhere I. The description does it say that it only applies to "files" per se; it even specifically mentions tricking camera footage, so it seems only logical that it could also be used to alter someone's perception of the world by adding data to an image or sound link feed, for instance, in order to cause a distraction or confuse your opponents.
And if your opponents are running wireless gear, Spoof Command can be used to take any action you could normally do, including ejecting smartgun magazines, switching fire modes, and so on.
It seems to me like you some times present your opinion as fact when there is some ambiguity in what can and can not be inferred from the rules. If there is even a slight chance that two people could read the same text and come to different conclusion, is it not in the common interest to figure out how to improve upon it instead of just saying "no, you're wrong, and this is how it is"?
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it when someone points out a fact I've misunderstood or missed completely, but a lot of what is being discussed here and in other threads are not facts, they are opinions and interpretations. Exchanging opinions with an open mind is, to me, far preferable.
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But nowhere [in] [t]he description does it say that it only applies to "files" per se; it even specifically mentions tricking camera footage, so it seems only logical that it could also be used to alter someone's perception of the world by adding data to an image or sound link feed, for instance, in order to cause a distraction or confuse your opponents.
It is nearly impossible to guess what the original idea behind Edit (File) is because it is nearly a direct copy&paste from 4th to 5th to Sixth World.
With it being described as capable of altering a video stream, I always considered the Matrix following *nix's everything is a file (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_is_a_file) philosophy.
Naturally, I expect most GMs to have absolutely no idea about that and always expect serious pushback on the thought...
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It's not the size of the icon that matters as much as the fact that icons that are part of your PAN appear as if they are carried by your persona according to the CRB.
I am trying to understand what game mechanical impact this have. If any.
How am I or my actions (or anything really) affected if the icons are smaller or seem to be carried by your persona.
Help me understand. Have I missed something?
But nowhere I. The description does it say that it only applies to "files"
SR6 p. 181 Edit File
Edit File allows you to create, change, copy, delete, or protect any kind of file. The defender is either the host holding the file or the owner of the file (if it’s not on a host). Each action is enough to alter one detail of a file...If you use this action to copy a file, you are the new file’s owner. If the file you want to copy has protection on it, this action automatically fails. If the file has a Data Bomb, the Data Bomb goes off on you (so try to remember to scan files before you open them).
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SR6 p. 181 Edit File
Edit File allows you to create, change, copy, delete, or protect any kind of file. The defender is either the host holding the file or the owner of the file (if it’s not on a host). Each action is enough to alter one detail of a file...If you use this action to copy a file, you are the new file’s owner. If the file you want to copy has protection on it, this action automatically fails. If the file has a Data Bomb, the Data Bomb goes off on you (so try to remember to scan files before you open them).
*nix's everything is a file (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_is_a_file) philosophy.
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But nowhere I. The description does it say that it only applies to "files"
SR6 p. 181 Edit File
Edit File allows you to create, change, copy, delete, or protect any kind of file. The defender is either the host holding the file or the owner of the file (if it’s not on a host). Each action is enough to alter one detail of a file...If you use this action to copy a file, you are the new file’s owner. If the file you want to copy has protection on it, this action automatically fails. If the file has a Data Bomb, the Data Bomb goes off on you (so try to remember to scan files before you open them).
Rather unpleasantly snarky, this post, given the part of the quote you elided with an ellipsis says "If you want to perform a continuous edit, such as removing your teammates from a video feed, you need to perform this action once per combat round for as long as you want to keep the edit going."
...which isn't really a "file" as such, is it? And in fact that was ISP's exact counter example.
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First of all.
I was replying to ZeroSum that said that the description of Edit File action didn't mention that it applies to 'Files'. To me it seem to be obvious that the description of Edit File action mention that it applies to Files (and I felt it strange that ZeroSum somehow missed this), but rather than arguing my case I decided to just quote two passes from the rules. Bold emphasis was mine.
Secondly.
While SR5 made a point of being a lot more distinct on this point, even SR6 differentiate between four different Icons. Persona Icons, Device Icons, Host Icons.... and File Icons. In addition to the four Icon types SR6 also talk about 'networks' ('networks' that are either stationary - WANs, or mobile - PANs).
- Send Message and Trace Icon actions seem to work on Personas (does not seem to work on Files, although Files can be attached in a message)
- Control Device, Format Device, Reboot Device actions seem to work on Devices (does not seem to work on Files)
- Enter Host action seem to work on Hosts (does not seem to work on Files)
- Backdoor Entry, Brute Force, Probe actions seem to work on 'networks' (does not seem to work on Files)
- Crack File, Encrypt File, Set Data Bomb... and Edit File actions seem to work on Files (and does not seem to work on Personas, Hosts, Devices or 'networks').
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Just a quick weigh in here based on what I wrote. (I did not write the example you guys quoted)
If you want to loop a live video feed... use control device or spoof command. But if you want to alter a recorded video of your team's infiltration then it is an edit file. So in my opinion the yes edit file only works on files .. but yes many many things can count as files
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Just a quick weigh in here based on what I wrote. (I did not write the example you guys quoted)
If you want to loop a live video feed... use control device or spoof command. But if you want to alter a recorded video of your team's infiltration then it is an edit file. So in my opinion the yes edit file only works on files .. but yes many many things can count as files
I hate to break it to you Banshee, but the video feed is right in the Edit File Action description. It isn't an example, it is the rule itself... I'll quote the whole thing for reference (for those who can't look it up).
Edit File allows you to create, change, copy, delete, or protect any kind of file. The defender is either the host holding the file or the owner of the file (if it’s not on a host). Each action is enough to alter one detail of a file—a short paragraph of text, a single detail of an image, or two or three seconds of video or audio (you and your gamemaster can work out what exactly “one detail” means). Your gamemaster may impose penalties on the test if your edit is particularly intricate or tricky. If you want to perform a continuous edit, such as removing your teammates from a video feed, you need to perform this action once per combat round for as long as you want to keep the edit going. If you use this action to copy a file, you are the new file’s owner. If the file you want to copy has protection on it, this action automatically fails. If the file has a Data Bomb, the Data Bomb goes off on you (so try to remember to scan files before you open them).
(EDITed: to clean up the copy & paste)
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Just a quick weigh in here based on what I wrote. (I did not write the example you guys quoted)
If you want to loop a live video feed... use control device or spoof command. But if you want to alter a recorded video of your team's infiltration then it is an edit file. So in my opinion the yes edit file only works on files .. but yes many many things can count as files
I hate to break it to you Banshee, but the video feed is right in the Edit File Action description. It isn't an example, it is the rule itself... I'll quote the whole thing for reference (for those who can't look it up).
Edit File allows you to create, change, copy, delete, or protect any kind of file. The defender is either the host holding the file or the owner of the file (if it’s not on a host). Each action is enough to alter one detail of a file—a short paragraph of text, a single detail of an image, or two or three seconds of video or audio (you and your gamemaster can work out what exactly “one detail” means). Your gamemaster may impose penalties on the test if your edit is particularly intricate or tricky. If you want to perform a continuous edit, such as removing your teammates from a video feed, you need to perform this action once per combat round for as long as you want to keep the edit going. If you use this action to copy a file, you are the new file’s owner. If the file you want to copy has protection on it, this action automatically fails. If the file has a Data Bomb, the Data Bomb goes off on you (so try to remember to scan files before you open them).
(EDITed: to clean up the copy & paste)
Huh!? I don't remember writing it that way, well either I got talked into it or it was added later then. 😉
Carry on then ... without changing then yeah edit file works on live video feeds.
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Most of the text in Edit File is a direct copy pasta from SR5.
Also, depending on your reading it might possible also be read in more than one way:
- You may perform a continuous edit to edit out your teammates from a live stream directly in real-time as they spend several seconds walking pass a camera
- You may perform a continuous edit to edit out more than a small detail from an already existing video feed file, for example to edit out your teammates from a video feed as they earlier spend several seconds walking pass a camera
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First of all.
I was replying to ZeroSum that said that the description of Edit File action didn't mention that it applies to 'Files'. To me it seem to be obvious that the description of Edit File action mention that it applies to Files (and I felt it strange that ZeroSum somehow missed this), but rather than arguing my case I decided to just quote two passes from the rules. Bold emphasis was mine.
You may have misread or misinterpreted my statement, then, or I did not make myself clear enough. I state that that nowhere in the description does it say that Edit File "only" applies to files. The video feed being the example that stands out; while one could argue that video feeds are files, I think Banshee's comments on this particular topic is a good indication of how one might think the text says one thing, but it is in fact open for interpretation.
Secondly.
While SR5 made a point of being a lot more distinct on this point, even SR6 differentiate between four different Icons. Persona Icons, Device Icons, Host Icons.... and File Icons. In addition to the four Icon types SR6 also talk about 'networks' ('networks' that are either stationary - WANs, or mobile - PANs).
- Send Message and Trace Icon actions seem to work on Personas (does not seem to work on Files, although Files can be attached in a message)
- Control Device, Format Device, Reboot Device actions seem to work on Devices (does not seem to work on Files)
- Enter Host action seem to work on Hosts (does not seem to work on Files)
- Backdoor Entry, Brute Force, Probe actions seem to work on 'networks' (does not seem to work on Files)
- Crack File, Encrypt File, Set Data Bomb... and Edit File actions seem to work on Files (and does not seem to work on Personas, Hosts, Devices or 'networks').
While I certainly agree with these statements, I was once again merely pointing out the ambiguity of the language used and which the author himself makes a comment on below.
As for the size or location of an icon; perhaps we simply have different opinions on how the matrix looks like, conceptually.
Let me illustrate one way to look at it, then you tell me if there is anything in my description you disagree with. Sound fair? Also, thank you for engaging with me on this, I do appreciate the opportunity to explain my understanding of the situation at hand, as I think the highly theoretical nature of the Matrix is one reason why the Matrix in general elicits so many questions.
Let's say that Zero the Decker has just gotten out of bed. He fires up his cyberdeck and opens up an AR connection to the Matrix through his cyberjack and deck.
Contention 1: Is the cyberdeck and cyberjack visible as distinct devices in the Matrix, or are they subsumed by Zero's persona?
I'm working off of the assumption that the Persona does not take the place of the device(s) you use to form it on. However, these devices would most certainly be part of your PAN, as per page 173: "the PAN is the primary means of displaying the persona, or icon, of the user". So what does this actually look like?
Contention 2: If Zero's partner, let's call them Sum, was to observe Zero in AR at this point in time, what would they see? What about in VR (assuming they have both just formed their personas and switched to VR)?
My assumption is that the Persona of Zero would show up in AR roughly in the same physical location as the devices forming his PAN, so if you were looking at the person Zero with your AR enhanced eyes, you would likely see his physical form and his Persona icon. This is where things get murky.
If the devices have their own separate icons in AR, you would look at Zero and see his physical shape, the Persona icon (I would personally think this would be hovering over or near his real body) and the two device icons (assume they are both wireless enabled and not running silent and this time) hovering somewhere near their physical location
Personally, I am of the opinion that each device having their own, discrete icons would get real messy real quick. Instead, what page 173 further tells us is that "programs and devices attached to a PAN appear as smaller representations of their normal icons, carried by their personas."
To my mind, this means that instead of seeing the cyberjack and cyberdeck icons as unique icons in AR, they are attached, or "carried" as the book says, by the Persona of which they are part of. To explain how I think this looks, the best example I can come up with is "thumbnails". I see the Persona icon having little thumbnails of the enabled, non-silent icons, attached to it, and an observer could expand the Persona icon to see more details.
Hopefully that explains how I view AR and why I think "location" matters.
In VR, I think visibility is much the same except with the obvious caveat that you see VR different from someone else. Zero might see Sum as an angelic being sleeping on a cloud (their persona) while playing a harp (a sound file icon, indicating that they are listening to music).
Sum, on the other hand, might see Zero as a Knight in black plate armour, sword and shield at the ready (persona icon with full ASDF attributes (sword, blackened armor, a leather wrapped book, and the shield, respectively).
In either case, I think it is important to know if you see each device as a separate, unique icon separate from the Persona, or if you instead see one Persona icon with multiple "thumbnails" tacked on to them.
This brings us to the last part of my vision for right now; icons that are running silent.
Contention 3: if an icon is running silent, does it disappear from view in the Matrix completely?
It would obviously behoove Zero to run his deck silently as it is illegal to own this piece of gear, especially for filthy SINners like him. In game terms he rolls to hide the Icon of the deck, and the icon disappears from view. In AR, this would mean either the device icon, or the thumbnail representation of it that appears as if carried by his Persona. In VR, this could mean that the black armor turns shining silver, while his sword is replaced with a lantern.
In either case, part of the shared hallucination that we call the Matrix has been affected.
This is a pretty simple example, but I hope this helps illustrate why I think it matters whether device and file icons are "carried" by their persona, or if they always appear as discrete icons "near" their physical location.
Personally, I just can't comprehend how AR and VR would work if you literally saw every single device with a Matrix connection, every file of every shape and form you can imagine, every data stream and every host within 100m of you. It would be like looking at the stars in the night sky, except wrapped tightly all around you.
I therefore imagine AR looking mostly like reality, where each Persona carries the visible device and file icons as thumbnails that are part of the overall persona icon. This, to me, is part of the filtering that previous editions described, and I think it matters because this will influence how hackers see the digital world.
Now, the above examples only deal with icons in close proximity. What if Zero has a wireless vehicle and decides to add it to his PAN.
Contention 4: what happens to an icon when it is joined to a PAN that is far away from the physical location of each other?
This is tricky; in AR you would think that you would look at the car and see a device icon, but if the text on page 173 is taken literally and the icon instead appears as if carried by the Persona, you would need to spot the persona to see the vehicle. Alternatively, the device icon is both simultaneously near the physical location of the vehicle AND a thumbnail on the persona.
In summary, I think the lack of a fundamental agreement and understanding of how the Matrix looks and feels like is why there are so many questions around how it works at a basic level.
Combat is easy; your opponent is over there. Shoot him. But just like in the matrix, your opponent can hide, and this is where we run into problems; I think we can both more easily agree that when a character uses a hide action in the real world they break line of sight and try to remain hidden. But there is no such easy reference point for the Matrix, and people will have different views and interpretations of what, precisely, the Matrix looks like. And I think this is the root of the issue.
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I hate to break it to you Banshee, but the video feed is right in the Edit File Action description. It isn't an example, it is the rule itself...
Huh!? I don't remember writing it that way, well either I got talked into it or it was added later then. 😉
Does anyone know the karma award for “successfully rules lawyered the author”? ;)
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For now I will give answers based upon how it worked in SR5.
Contention 1: Is the cyberdeck and cyberjack visible as distinct devices in the Matrix, or are they subsumed by Zero's persona?
In previous edition a wireless enabled cyberdeck that nobody is 'using' would have a device icon of its own, which probably look like a miniature cyberdeck of sorts. When its user for example switch from his commlink to his cyberdeck (by rebooting both devices in the process) the icon of the cyberdeck will never come online, instead what will come online is a humanoid shaped avatar (his matrix persona). When his commlink is booting up (but not being 'used' since he or she is now using his or her cyberdeck instead) it will have a device icon (which will probably look like a commlink or other communication device of sorts).
If the persona is attacked with matrix damage then it will be the cyberdeck that will 'soak' the damage.
So what does this actually look like?
A persona icon looks like a sentient being of sorts. Size wise it can be as small as a dwarf or as big as a troll. Most people have an avatar that resembles themselves, but photo shopped. But it can be pretty much anything. A robot. A ninja. A dwarf. An orc. A miniature dragon. A smurf. A surfer. A police officer. A warewolf.
was to observe Zero in AR
So AR is when you are not in VR.
You can experience it in many different ways.
In its most basic form you could look at the image link (monitor) of the commlink by just holding it in front of you. Using the touch screen and listening via ear buds. This is how people interacted with the matrix back in 2019.
Or you could have screens in front of your eyes, such as contacts or glasses with an image link (or an implanted image link either as an enhancement to your natural eye or as cybereyes). And instead of touching your commlink you can use an AR glove. This is how people interacted with the matrix in earlier editions and some still did in SR5.
Or you could have a direct neural interface (by wearing trodes or by implanting a cyberdeck, commlink or control rig) which let you interface directly with your commlink and the matrix around you, without devices such as AR gloves etc. If your commlink also have a sim module then you not only experience AR by seeing, touching and hearing. You can also smell and taste the matrix. Super AR.
what would they see?
AR is when you are not in VR.
You see the real world and depending on how you access the matrix you can get an augmented reality overlay on-top of the real world.
This is a great representation on how it could look like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJg02ivYzSs
It seem as if you can choose how much you wish to filter out. That you can choose the 'transparency' you wish to have on the matrix overlay. Maybe Sum will see Zero's real physical body with his matrix overlay matrix persona just as a shimmering outline or maybe Sum turn it to 11 and the matrix persona of Zero will fully fill the view of Sum and fully block the actual physical appearance of Zero.
What about in VR
If you switch to VR then everything goes black as the real world fades away. As you open your eyes the 'world' will look very different depending on which grid you are connected to.
If you connect to Ares global grid then the ground will become is a plain of green fields, unpaved roads with wagon routs, forests in the distance and most hosts near the ground have a stone foundation rendered beneath them.
If you instead connect to the AZGrid then you will be transported to a pseudo-history of Aztechnology's creation where the ground looks like the ancient Aztec cities in their prime with hosts adding ziggurauts to the landscape. The edges of the cities look like rainforests and mountains but cannot be reached, simply holding their place in the distance no matter how you move towards them.
Saeder-Krupp ûberwelt have a theme of 1990 Berlin, complete with fresh scars of a torn-down wall and hosts sit inside the buildings lining the streets... while the Neonetwork looks like a sprawling cityscape with connected hosts filling the city's skyscrapers.
Sum and Zero might join the matrix via different grids but Sum will still see his partner Zero's Matrix Avatar (which might look like Zero himself or however Zero designed his persona).
No matter the grid the connected to they can move freely in any direction. There is no real concept of 'distance' in the matrix. There is also no gravitational law in the matrix.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB-JzPBJalA
Contention 3: if an icon is running silent, does it disappear from view in the Matrix completely?
By default most people automatically filter out silent running icons (and file icons and data streams and you group most wireless enabled devices on a person together into one PAN icon) but if you are interested in just looking for silent running icons then you can filter out everything that is not running silent.
in SR5 you only need a single hit on a matrix perception test to notice every single silent running icon in your vicinity, that the silent running icons are out there are actually as obvious as a neon sign or a running crowd would be for physical perception.
Actually spotting each individual silent running icon (after you are aware of its presence) is however resolved with an opposed test.
In game terms he rolls to hide the Icon of the deck, and the icon disappears from view.
If you wish to spot the icon of a device in SR5 you take a matrix perception test. If the device is running silent then it get to oppose the test. If not and within 100 meters then spotting is automatic.
If a car is parked down the street you take a matrix perception test to spot its icon. If it is running silent then it get to oppose the test. If not and within 100 meters then spotting is automatic.
The illegal Hide action is an action you take if some already spotted you and you wish to become un-spotted. This didn't work if the target already had a mark (access) on the device.
In SR6 it does not seem as if you can set a single device on silent running mode..? In SR6 it seem as if you set your whole PAN to silent running mode (you switch your commlink, or whatever data processing device you are using to access the matrix with, to silent running mode). And that a hacker that spot your 'network' actually spot all your devices same as if he gain access on your 'network' actually gain access to all the devices and the files in the network.
Personally, I just can't comprehend how AR and VR would work if you literally saw every single device with a Matrix connection, every file of every shape and form you can imagine, every data stream and every host within 100m of you. It would be like looking at the stars in the night sky, except wrapped tightly all around you.
Every wireless enabled device in the entire world (not just within 100 meters) have a matrix icon associated with it. And many of them have file icons. On a regular person you probably have many hundreds different icons. Icons that you can spot and interact with no matter where in the world they are located. Most of the time you are not really interested in all this so you tell your commlink to group them all together into one PAN Icon.
If you fly up in the matrix sky (where most of the hosts are located) and look down to the ground (where all the devices are located) you will indeed see a something that look like starts in the night sky. Stretching all the way to the horizon (which would actually represent devices on the other side of the world). Far down below you is the brightest icon of them all. This is your commlink or cyberdeck you used to access the grid with. Further away from your device icons get more dim and start to flickering, making them harder to spot (noise due to distance).
Now, the above examples only deal with icons in close proximity. What if Zero has a wireless vehicle and decides to add it to his PAN.
'Virtual distance' doesn't really mean anything in the matrix. It doesn't really matter if the icon appears to be close to the actual vehicle or close to the matrix persona of Zero.
In SR5 you could always spot your own devices (or devices you had access to) no matter where in the world they are located or if they are running silent or not. Zero would always spot the device icon of his vehicle. No matter where in the physical world it is located. And no matter if it is slaved to his device or not.
This is tricky; in AR you would think that you would look at the car and see a device icon, but if the text on page 173 is taken literally and the icon instead appears as if carried by the Persona, you would need to spot the persona to see the vehicle
If Sum is aware of the vehicle that Zero owns (maybe because he is physically looking at the wireless enabled car) then Sum would just take a matrix perception test to spot its device icon. If the vehicle is running silent then it get to oppose the test. If not and within 100 meters of Sum (no matter how far away from Zero it is and no matter if it is slaved to Zero or not) then spotting would be automatic.
In SR6 it seem as if spotting is always automatic, except if the entire PAN is running silent. In that case you need to take a matrix perception test to spot the entire PAN (and with it all the devices attached to the PAN).
Combat is easy; your opponent is over there. Shoot him.
Not really harder in the matrix (unless you decide to make it harder).
Your opponent is over there. Data spike him.
If your opponent is hiding. Matrix perception test to spot him. Your opponent is over there. Data spike him.
SR6 p. 178 Running Silent
Sometimes, a user will cut off all publicly available information and only respond to specific queries, rendering them largely invisible to the Matrix. Their wireless signal and PAN still exist—they just have to be found. A user can run silent by simply switching modes on their commlink or deck. They can be detected by an Opposed Matrix Perception test as described above. Making a Matrix Perception test to find someone running silent is a typically a Major Action, but if performed by a runner with a cyberdeck, cyberjack, or a Resonance attribute, it is a Minor Action.
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I mean... I appreciate all the time and effort it must have taken to gather all those quotes, but you yourself said it best; that's all based on SR5 rules which we know differ from SR6.
So what was the point in asking me about how I think the Matrix in SR6 looks if you were just going to copy-paste a lot of SR5 material, especially considering the discussion clearly revolvs around the SR6 ruleset?
While I get that this is a rules forum, you invited the topic of trying to understand another point of view. I can't say I see much of an actual rsponse in your last post, other than "this is what it was like in the past edition" and one note about running silent applying to a PAN and not a device.
Fair point on that last one, though; Deckers will need to carry a spare commlink if they are running silent, it seems, but since you can't form your persona on two devices the automatic assumption if anyone were to look in your "direction" is that you are either not using wireless (weirdo) or you are hiding...
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Well the value in "how it worked in 5e" is that we can safely assume that it's still true, unless we hear something that contradicts it. There was no event between 5e and 6we that changed how the matrix works, afterall.*
Of course, that being said, the Blackout is the big 6we plot kicker-off-er... so who knows. We'll have to see when the plot books begin to come.
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Reason I used SR5 as reference is because I spend more time than most reading through that material as well as discussing it with freelancers. It is a good starting point to come from.
Next step is to go through the SR6 ruleset and take note of everything that is different. So, now lets do that :-)
(but here I will need help since I don't 100% know all the rules yet and some of the conclusions I will arrive to in SR6 might or might not be correct).
Matrix Perception (Electronics + Intuition) can be used for four different activities;
- Matrix Search - Searching the matrix, same as SR5 but now labeled as an "Extended test" with a 10 minute interval. Unclear what the target number is though, do you just keep rolling until you run out of dice and use the final number of hits to see how far on the Legwork Result table on p.50 you got (not very likely), is it intended to be resolved as a simple test that take 10 minutes and number of hits will be used on the table (maybe, or even most likely if you ask me) or that the player declare the threshold of hidden information he is trying to find according to the legwork table on p. 50 and then resolve it as an extended test (maybe, but reaching 10 hits for "Deep secrets others actively try to hide" on an extended test is actually not very difficult)
- Observe in Detail - Same in SR5 but unlike SR5 this seem to always be opposed by Willpower + Sleaze of the target(!). Unlike SR5 you also no longer play "20-questions" where you get to ask a question per hit, instead you get layered information based on net hits. Unclear how many hits required to spot a data bomb (will you notice it on a tie, 1 net hit or 2 net hits?), but it could also mean that you would take a specific matrix perception test just to scan the file for data bombs (in which case you probably just need a tie to spot it, 1 hit to find out the rating of the bomb and 2 hits to find out what the effect will be if it happen to go off). In SR5 you used one of your hits on file icon to ask if it have a data bomb. Change Icon action will not change the result of this action (was same in SR5). With a tie you can perceive the item’s icon (in SR5 this was a single hit on a simple test for icons not in your vicinity and automatic for icons in your vicinity and opposed if hiding). Maybe SR6 is only talking about spotting a specific file icon that is hidden with camouflage or a specific device or persona hidden with phantasm or a specific 'network' that is currently running silent. You don't seem to need a test to spot an icon in the vicinity that is not hiding, but it is unclear if you need to take a test to spot an icon not in the vicinity that is not hiding (this was a simple test with a threshold of 1 in SR5, almost impossible to fail unless there was a lot of uncompensated noise to consider). With 1 net hit you get basic information (such as device rating, name of the device or icon). With 2 net hits you get advanced information (individual attribute ratings - which might or might not mean you need 2 net hits to find out that the target 'network' belong to a hacker, programs it is running - which you can then crash with the Crash Program action... but you can also understand which programs that are running by actually see them in action). Additional hits is up to GM. 5 net hits on this test seem to be needed to notice that a 'network' in fact belong specifically to a Technomancer (rather than a Decker)
, but the wording make this ambiguous ("Technomancers can experience AR, VR, and hot-sim with no extra gear, and they are difficult to spot in the Matrix, typically requiring 5 hits on a Matrix Perception test (p. 178) to be seen"). [EDIT! - this was addressed in Errata]. This is also used to spot specific persona or device hidden by Phantom or a specific File hidden by Camouflage. - Find silent running 'network' - In SR5 individual devices or personas could run silent and you tried to spot individual devices or individual personas. In SR6 it seem as if your entire 'network' is running silent or it isn't.
Also it say something about 'networks' that have a Sleaze attribute (which might or might not be of importance). "This test can also be used to attempt to find a persona with a Sleaze attribute that is running silent" [EDIT! - this was addressed in Errata]. A stealth tag oppose this test with 10 dice as a dice pool of its own. Also, if a hacker successfully use the Hide action then we need to take a Matrix Perception test to re-spot his 'network', but if we already have User or Admin access to his 'network' then it seem as if we will automatically spot him even if he successfully used a Hide action (which was similar in SR5, you always spotted an icon you had a mark on, but in SR5 you could look at your icon for marks and you could attack the marks with the Erase Mark action which was the same as removing access - in SR6 we cannot see if someone have access to our 'network' or not and we also cannot remove this access which mean if someone gain access to our 'network' then we cannot ever hope to hide - without perhaps rebooting the 'gateway' of the 'network' - the cyberdeck/cyberjack, commlink or rcc). This is a Major action unless you are using a cyberdeck or a cyberjack or a living persona or if you are patrol IC - in which case it is a Minor action - Resist matrix 'illusions' - An unopposed matrix perception test against a set threshold set by the complex form is used to resist/see through both Mirrored Persona and Resonance Veil (same in SR5, but the mirrored persona complex form is new).
Running Silent - for reference;
Sometimes, a user will cut off all publicly available information and only respond to specific queries, rendering them largely invisible to the Matrix. Their wireless signal and PAN still exist—they just have to be found. A user can run silent by simply switching modes on their commlink or deck. They can be detected by an Opposed Matrix Perception test as described above.
(I read this is as if it is the entire personal area network which that will run silent, not single devices as it was in SR5)
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It's best to ignore SR5 because we should treat this as standalone rule wise unless there's a really unclear case. Otherwise we can't help new people figure it out.
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I would probably rule it like this;
Wish to search the matrix for intel / legwork?
Simple Electronics + Intuition test with a duration of 10 minutes.
Net hits are used for the Legwork table on p. 50
Make sure file is not trapped with bomb?
Opposed Electronics + Intuition vs. Willpower (of data bomb maker) + Sleaze (if owner of data bomb have one)
Tie. Bomb present (yes/no)?
1 net hit. Rating of bomb (if bomb is present)
2 net hits. Is bomb set to delete file (yes/no)? (if bomb is present)
Wish to scan a persona for details
Opposed Electronics + Intuition vs. Willpower (of user) + Sleaze (only living persona or if generated on a cyberdeck)
Tie. Persona (or rather the whole 'network') is spotted (if running silent)
1 net hit. Rating of commlink, cyberjack, RCC or Living Persona
2 net hits. A/S rating + D/F ratings. (A/S ratings will indicate persona is currently using living persona or cyberdeck)
5 net hits. Is Living Persona (yes/no)?
You are aware of device, but for some reason cannot see its specific device icon?
Because Device is slaved to 'network' that is currently hidden from you
Opposed Electronics + Intuition vs. Willpower (of 'network' owner) + Sleaze (if 'network' have one)
Tie. Device (or rather the whole 'network') is spotted
Because Device is being hidden by phantom complex form
Opposed Electronics + Intuition vs. Net hits of phantom complex form
Tie. Specific Device is spotted
Because Device is wireless disabled
Matrix perception will automatically fail
Device cannot be spotted in the matrix.
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It's best to ignore SR5 because we should treat this as standalone rule wise unless there's a really unclear case. Otherwise we can't help new people figure it out.
Right now I think we are all trying to figure out how they work in SR6, and at least for me (that know SR5 matrix rules by heart) it is far easier to compare differences and then draw conclusions than starting from scratch. But I agree. People are coming here to find out how rules work in SR6, not how they might have worked in SR5.
Going forward I will focus on my answers towards what can be found in SR6 (and keep my SR5 notes in a separate medium).
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I do like the notion of spotting by PAN instead of spotting by device. Adds some risk/reward to the team slaving your drek over to the specialist: yeah he can defend against spotting tests better, but if he fails the whole team just got spotted...
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This comes back to the eternal question of "what do I see in AR/VR"?
The above could be read either as:
1. When a device icon becomes part of a PAN, it is subsumed by the persona and appears as a smaller representation of itself being carried by the persona.
or
2. Devices that are part of a PAN appear both on their devices as usual, and as a small representation of itself carried by the persona.
This has been (probably deliberately) left vague for all editions of Shadowrun.
I find it frustrating myself, as it leads to long winded discussions as individual tables figure out what all happens for their instance of Shadowrun, and does not hing to help the same discussions from happening between tables.
For example if you are in in Seattle and doing Matrix stuff on the DeeCee grid, "where" is your Persona?
This was more important in 5e, where there was the written rule "you automatically spot every Icon in a 100m radius" (which doesn't appear to have made it to 6e - for better or worse), but it can very much play a part in Sixth World.
Does your Persona "move" to DeeCee? Is the DeeCee grid "pulled" to your deck?
In broad strokes, it doesn't matter too much. In trying to comprehend how the game world works it is pretty darn important.
My personal opinion is that a device in a PAN "spawns" a second - smaller - Icon when the device leaves an indeterminate radius from the Persona that is holding it.
Example: If you have your Daihatsu-Caterpillar Horseman in your PAN, after you step - say - 1m away from it it reverts to having it's normal Icon again and has a smaller copy in your Persona.
The only reason I think that is because I find it hard to fathom that the Horseman would be Icon-less when parked two blocks away while you are having dinner in a restaurant.
But I'm not sure this is the case, and certainly not at all tables.
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This has been (probably deliberately) left vague for all editions of Shadowrun.
I find it frustrating myself, as it leads to long winded discussions as individual tables figure out what all happens for their instance of Shadowrun, and does not hing to help the same discussions from happening between tables.
...
In broad strokes, it doesn't matter too much. In trying to comprehend how the game world works it is pretty darn important.
It bugs me a lot. Because it makes it hard to visualise Matrix stuff, it makes it hard for GMs to describe Matrix stuff. And while I support the Matrix rules being abstract, the more abstract they are, the more they need careful grounding in a clearly written narrative reality because GMs and players have nothing else to go on to. In a lot of ways, I feel like the Matrix rules are unmoored, ungrounded, kinda rootless. They exist as a set of mechanics but they don't gel together because -- for as many times as I've read and re-read 5e / Kill Code / Data Trails - I have no mental model for what the world is to put the rules into. And I think it's a real failing in the books.
The Astral plane suffers a bit from this too (citation: the argument here recently about whether a projecting mage can tell two types of gun apart.) GMs can wing it in the real world, can fill in the blanks, because we all have decent ideas of guns work (even if that's more from films that reality). But Shadowrun's Matrix isn't particularly like any other real-world or fictional representation of computers or VR.
I'd really appreciate an entire chapter of one of these Matrix books covering nothing but "this is what a person walking down the street sees", "this is how a cop in VR would scan your stuff", "this is how wageslave offices look and how wageslaves do their work." I think it's sad we've had not one but two Matrix splatbooks for 5e and so much still goes unsaid. Hell, if 6e gets that, I'd buy that splatbook just for that chapter.
(One of my many Shadowrun slowly progressing side projects is writing such a chapter, for my own table.)
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@Iron Serpent Prince and @penllawen
Thank you for putting my feelings into words. I have found it difficult to express how I feel about the abstract nature of the Matrix, and I think your two posts are excellent examples of just how disconnect the "feel" of the abstract Matrix can be.
I think the Matrix chapter in SR6 makes a whole lot more sense than in any previous edition, and I am extremely grateful to the author for spending his personal time on these boards elaborating on or explaining the details of some of the murkier and abstract rules.
I will agree with both of the two previous posts that more concrete examples and fiction could do wonders to ground the setting in a paradigm of how the Matrix can work conceptually, while still providing enough freedom for tables to go wild with their imaginations and have fun with it.
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I think the Matrix chapter in SR6 makes a whole lot more sense than in any previous edition, and I am extremely grateful to the author for spending his personal time on these boards elaborating on or explaining the details of some of the murkier and abstract rules.
Hear, hear. I don’t want my previous post to sound like I’m down on Banshee’s contributions. I think his 6e rules are - by a wide margin - the best Matrix rules Shadowrun has ever had. I think they show a depth of understanding and an attention to detail that — were it only shared by the rest of 6e — would have given us a new edition that was really something special. I appreciate the time and effort he puts in here. And he even suggested himself that he’d have loved to include the sort of deeper, more detailed fluff I’d like to see, but was restricted by the page count. Which I can understand.
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As I read it;
For example if you are in in Seattle and doing Matrix stuff on the DeeCee grid, "where" is your Persona?
Your persona is either in the matrix, inside a host or disconnected from the matrix.
The 'virtual' distance doesn't really seem to matter.
This was more important in 5e, where there was the written rule "you automatically spot every Icon in a 100m radius" (which doesn't appear to have made it to 6e - for better or worse), but it can very much play a part in Sixth World.
It doesn't matter if your matrix persona is in DeeCee or in Seattle or if I am currently in Berlin, Tokyo or Seattle.
If we are both on the matrix (or inside the same host) then I can see your persona and I can interact with your persona. If your PAN is running silent then I first might need to take an opposed matrix perception test to spot you but that's it.
Does your Persona "move" to DeeCee? Is the DeeCee grid "pulled" to your deck?
As long as your persona is in the matrix (on a grid, any grid - as long as it is not currently inside a host) then 'noise due to distance' will always be measured from your physical hardware (or your physical body in the case of a technomancer using her living persona).
But "where" your matrix persona currently is have little or no importance.
'Travel' from one place in the matrix to another is instant.
Think of it as 2019 internet for a second. It doesn't really matter if you are logged into your steam account from your home computer in Seattle or if you are currently playing Killing Floor 2 on a server in Berlin. Or if you travel to Tokyo and connect your steam account on an internet cafe. I will still see that you are online and I can still chat with you. Distance doesn't really matter (except that being in Seattle while playing on a server in Berlin will cause 200+ latency which in Shadowrun will act as a negative dice pool modifier unless you have sufficient noise reduction).
My personal opinion is that a device in a PAN "spawns" a second - smaller - Icon when the device leaves an indeterminate radius from the Persona that is holding it.
Example: If you have your Daihatsu-Caterpillar Horseman in your PAN, after you step - say - 1m away from it it reverts to having it's normal Icon again and has a smaller copy in your Persona.
The device will still have a device icon of its own, no matter if it is slaved or not.
Slaved or not an observer will also automatically spot the icon (unless it is trying to hide).
The 'virtual' distance between the device and the commlink doesn't really matter.
The only reason I think that is because I find it hard to fathom that the Horseman would be Icon-less when parked two blocks away while you are having dinner in a restaurant.
The horseman would still have an icon in the matrix that you may interact with.
If the horseman is not part of a 'network' then it would have a bigger icon floating around on its own. As long as you are on the matrix (rather than inside a host or not on-line at all) it seem as if you don't need to take a test to spot its icon (even if you are physically on the other side of the world?).
If the horseman is part of the owners 'network' and the owner is not running silent then its icon would look like a smaller device icon together with all other devices part of the owners 'network'. But as long as you are on the matrix you still don't need to take a test to spot the specific icon of the horseman. Your character will probably not be confused about this 'virtual distance' of two blocks between the physical device and the PAN icon nor the fact that the device icon not floating next to the physical device. The matrix is very helpful and will let your character know that this is in fact the device icon of the physical device. If you wish to know the exact physical location of a device you need to have Admin access on the 'network' and successfully take the Trace Icon action (but if you already know where the device is physically located, perhaps because you are physically looking at the device, then you of course don't need to trace its virtual icon back to this location).
If the device is part of the owners 'network' and the owner is currently running silent then you will not automatically spot the device icon (same as if the device is not wireless enabled or if it is shutdown or otherwise disconnected from the matrix). In this case you need to take a matrix perception test. If you tie or get net hits then you will notice the device (or rather the owners 'network' with all his slaved devices, including the device icon of the horseman). If the device is not wireless enabled or if it is shutdown or otherwise disconnected from the matrix then your matrix perception test will automatically fail (but your character will probably not know if the reason was that he simply failed to find the silent running 'network' the device was attached to or if the device is not connected to the the matrix at all).
If you are very far away you might take a negative dice pool modifier when interacting with the device. The distance is measured between the actual physical device and your actual physical commlink, cyberdeck/cyberjack, RCC or physical body (in case of living persona) - not the 'virtual' distance between your matrix persona and the owner's personal area network.
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The 'virtual' distance doesn't really seem to matter.
If that were true, there would be absolutely no reason to have Distance Modifiers to Noise.
If I have a drone, it is connected to the Matrix, and I'm connected to the Matrix, then I would be able to pilot it from Seattle to Auckland without any Noise due to Distance.
And let;s tie that back into my previous example.
I'm sitting in Seattle, and I need to interact with the DeeCee Public Library host for some reason.
It has an actual physical host in it's building.
My Persona is standing outside, but hasn't entered yet. (Maybe I needed to feed my cigarette addiction first.)
You are in DeeCee, and for this example let's say you have half the die pool I have for Matrix Perception.
Do we see each other?
I'm suffering a -8 penalty due to distance, right off the bat.
If you do not have 8 dice in Matrix Perception, is my Persona automatically invisible to you? Do you check as if my Persona is right next to you?
To be clear, I'm not arguing one way or another.
In the broad strokes, it doesn't really matter to me which way it gets ruled.
It just needs to be ruled.
And that is just one simple example. There are a ton more.
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It just needs to be ruled.
I would go further. Rules can’t explain everything. But the setting should be presented in such a way and at such a level of detail and at such a level of internal consistency that most questions of this type can be inferred from the rules that do exist. That’s what I miss - a grasp of a logical, coherent body of knowledge that doesn’t cover everything (no RPG system can) but covers enough that I can fill in the gaps myself with confidence.
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It just needs to be ruled.
I would go further. Rules can’t explain everything. But the setting should be presented in such a way and at such a level of detail and at such a level of internal consistency that most questions of this type can be inferred from the rules that do exist. That’s what I miss - a grasp of a logical, coherent body of knowledge that doesn’t cover everything (no RPG system can) but covers enough that I can fill in the gaps myself with confidence.
Help us, Obi-wan Ken-Banshee. You're our only hope.
On a serious note, if you have any kind of pull and are involved in any future books, I think it would be very much appreciated if you were able to add a couple paragraphs, or pages if at all possible, about how the Matrix can be perceived. Examples, if it has to be that, like those already in the Matrix chapter could benefit massively from a little more elaboration on how you all, the author and editors of the Shadowrun product line, envision the Matrix.
I'd say combat is pretty relateable for most people; I think it's fair to say from the various opinions and interpretations expressed in threads like this that some guidance on how the Matrix concept works in-setting would be highly appreciated by many.
Pretty please with NERPS on top?
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If that were true, there would be absolutely no reason to have Distance Modifiers to Noise.
If I have a drone, it is connected to the Matrix, and I'm connected to the Matrix, then I would be able to pilot it from Seattle to Auckland without any Noise due to Distance.
The 'physical' distance between your physical drone and your physical RCC will generate noise due to distance.
The 'physical' distance between your drone and my cyberdeck will also generate noise due to distance.
But the 'virtual' distance between my 'virtual' matrix persona and the 'virtual' device icon of the drone does not seem to matter.
If both your drone and my cyberdeck is in Auckland but your RCC is in Seattle then you will have noise to due distance to your drone while I will have very little noise due to distance to your drone.
If your drone is slaved to your RCC then the device icon of the drone will be attached to your PAN. One could say that you will now have a very short 'virtual' distance between your RCC and the drone while my matrix persona 'in' Seattle will have a long 'virtual' distance to your PAN - but this 'virtual' distance does not seem to matter.
You will still have a long physical distance to the drone so you will still have a lot of noise due to distance. And I will still have a short physical distance to your drone so I will still have very little noise due to distance. If you 'move' your 'virtual' matrix persona from Seattle to Auckland you will still have a long physical distance between your physical RCC and the physical drone and thus a lot of noise due to physical distance. The 'virtual' distance (where in the matrix your virtual matrix persona is in relation to another virtual icon) does not seem to matter when it comes to noise due to distance.
It also seem as if I will automatically spot the device icon of your drone if I were to look for it (unless it is part of a network that is current set to silent running). No matter if it have a device icon in Auckland or if it is slaved to your RCC and have a virtual device icon in Seattle instead. The 'virtual' distance does not matter when spotting icons either.
And let;s tie that back into my previous example.
I'm sitting in Seattle, and I need to interact with the DeeCee Public Library host for some reason.
It has an actual physical host in it's building.
My Persona is standing outside, but hasn't entered yet. (Maybe I needed to feed my cigarette addiction first.)
You are in DeeCee, and for this example let's say you have half the die pool I have for Matrix Perception.
Do we see each other?
The 'virtual' distance between your virtual matrix persona in DeeCee and my virtual matrix persona that is also in DeeCee does not seem to matter. You will have a lot of noise due to distance between your RCC in Seattle and my cyberdeck in DeeCee.
Having said that. If you wish to spot my matrix persona then it seem as if you would automatically do so as long as we are both connected to the matrix (and none of us are inside a host). You can spot my icon in DeeCee and you can send messages to me from Seattle. I can data spike you from DeeCee. Your 'virtual' location in the matrix does not seem to matter.
I'm suffering a -8 penalty due to distance, right off the bat.
If you do not have 8 dice in Matrix Perception, is my Persona automatically invisible to you?
It does not seem as if you need to take a matrix perception test to spot an icon (unless it is trying to hide). In previous edition this would have been a simple matrix perception test (very obvious as you only need one single hit on a perception test, as obvious as a neon sign or a running crowd). But if you for example were to observe my persona in detail you would suffer 8 points of noise due to distance between your RCC in Seattle and my cyberdeck in DeeCee. The short 'virtual' distance between our two virtual icons does not seem to have any impact at all.
Do you check as if my Persona is right next to you?
As I read it this short 'virtual' distance between our icons does not seem to matter. If i were to observe your persona in detail I would still suffer 8 points of noise due to distance between my cyberdeck in DeeCee and your RCC in Seattle.