Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Smythe1970 on <10-06-19/1909:41>
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Quick and direct question: Starting Adepts in SR Sixth World who take Magic as Priority A only get 4 Power Points?
Can this be raised to 6 Power Points with the Metatype Adjustment Points?
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Quick and direct question: Starting Adepts in SR Sixth World who take Magic as Priority A only get 4 Power Points?
Can this be raised to 6 Power Points with the Metatype Adjustment Points?
Quick and direct answer:
p.65 SR 6th Core Rules
Magic/Resonance
[...]Adepts have a pool of points equal to their Magic (as listed in the Priority table, before any adjustments) that they use to purchase adept powers.[...]
So Adjustment Points and Karma are Adjustments. :) and whether you can take Karma with you into the Game and then just raise Magic instantly was already debated hot. Going by RAW just push Magic to 6 and burn the 2 "dead" points into Bioware/Cyberware. (ugly but then no houserules involved)
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Essentially, there's a clear contradiction between the chargen chapter and the magic chapter, which says a gain in Magic always means a gain in Power Points. There's also the problem there are no rules about losing Power Points when you lose Magic, and it's unclear if this is unintentional. So it's incredibly wonky right now, and I can't make any balance statements until we get some proper errata out.
I understand the restrictions they made, since it makes Magic a really important priority choice even though the benefits are small karma-wise (and thus inferior to other priorities), but with Adepts I think it's problematic because of the ability to gain Magic through APs which by chargen chapter would leave you with a permanent gap. Honestly for Adepts I think the rule should simply be 'not allowed to raise magic with adjustment points' if they want to restrict initial Power Points.
Right now, discuss with your GM. I advocate one of 2 options:
1: Not allowed to raise magic in chargen at all as Adept
2: PP == Magic + PP-Initiations, always
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I swear what happened here is that someone thought of a way to make the Magic or Resonance column on the Priority Table need less words to cover everything it needed to say - Magic listed on the table x 2 spells or complex forms saves space over having to specify 8 at priority A and so on down the line like was done on a prior priority table - and accidentally took it too far by applying it to power points as well, which unlike spells/complex forms are otherwise directly related to the rating in question.
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I think it's more of a case where the priority pick for magic is supposed to be important. If everything scaled with Magic increases, then all you'd ever need to put into magic is D. (unless of course you're going E: Mundane...)
It wasn't an oversight that Adepts got denied extra power points with increases to MAG beyond the priority pick, since that was very deliberately stated to be the case. It WAS probably an oversight though that you don't LOSE power points when your magic goes DOWN though due to cyber/bio ware implantation...
I agree with Michael Chandra. I'd either strike the rule forbidding extra PPs for Adepts (and Adepts only- Mystic Adepts don't need the boost), or just ensure no players actually invest in an Adept's MAG attribute beyond the Magic pick until after chargen.
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Essentially, there's a clear contradiction between the chargen chapter and the magic chapter, which says a gain in Magic always means a gain in Power Points. There's also the problem there are no rules about losing Power Points when you lose Magic, and it's unclear if this is unintentional. So it's incredibly wonky right now, and I can't make any balance statements until we get some proper errata out.
Also complicated by the fact that the Adept archetype seems to violate the "only get power points in character creation from Magic Priority pick Magic attribute" rule, as it has 5.5 power points worth of powers.
One alternate set of house rules (pending official errata/clarifications) could be as follows:
* specify a "training time" for learning new powers (powers are not currently listed in the Advancement Table on page 68, which either means you learn them immediately when you gain a Power Point in some fashion, or this was an oversight/mistake). For example, learning a power could take 1 month * power point cost.
* allow players to earn power points for increasing their magic rating during character creation, but not spend them. This is technically legal based on the rule on page 156 which says you can hold power points.
After play starts, the player can spend those additional power points by taking the appropriate training time. This is a kludgy way to try to honor both of the rules sections Michael mentions. I'm not saying its a great way to do it.
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Awakening Power Points after chargen is also an option I'm considering, but it's too far into houserule territory for me to suggest to players. To GMs, sure.
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For what it's worth, the german rules will include an errata, that a physical adept who uses customization karma to increase his magic attribute, will get the power points matching the magic attribute.
Mystical adepts on the other hand won't get the option to buy additional power points on character creation.
I don't know if this is in accordance to the errata for the original version (usually Pegasus checks with CGL for errata) or a german house rule.
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Sounds like a houserule. I caught a few cases in SR5 where Pegasus errata were wrong (and I HATE what they did for Parageology in SR5!). Mind you, I don't know what adept errata will be for SR6.
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Awakening Power Points after chargen is also an option I'm considering, but it's too far into houserule territory for me to suggest to players. To GMs, sure.
If you had for example:
Meta: C > 9 Adjustment Points > 6 MAGIC
Att: A
Skill: B
Mag: D > 1 Power Point
Resources: E
So after creation you do like 5 runs ( à 5 Karma ) and buy Power Points from it?
Is this how it works correctly, following the CRB?
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Buying PP was for Mystic Adepts and got removed by errata. As to how to houserule awakening, I'm not sure what would be fairly balanced. 5 karma seems relatively fair, though 10 might be better. (You're saving a lot of Karma with that C vs D.)
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oh, i see!
so as (mystic) adept you only get more PP by putting higher priority in Magic or Initiation later on?
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oh, i see!
so as (mystic) adept you only get more PP by putting higher priority in Magic or Initiation later on?
Yes, but also from Qi Foci, as well.
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And of course we have to see if p.156 CRB stays "Whenever adept characters gain a point of Magic, they also gain a power point."
But as I interpret it this is exclusively for Adepts, not Mystic Adepts.
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Yeah in that line lies the rub. It contradicts chargen. And they deliberately nerfed chargen to encourage higher priorities in Magic in chargen, so it probably overrides somehow. But I have no idea what way errata will fall, which is why I am VERY silent when it comes to adepts. =/
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Yeah in that line lies the rub. It contradicts chargen. And they deliberately nerfed chargen to encourage higher priorities in Magic in chargen, so it probably overrides somehow.
However I still do not quite see how it actually does motivate higher priorities in Magic during gen. It feels more like who ever wrote this WANTS Adepts to take higher priority in Magic, but only ends up punishing Adepts for the author not providing actual incentives to do so. The way I see it, it sucks to take Magic A or B, it sucks somewhat less t take Magic c or d but it still sucks. You can put Adjustment Points into Magic, but as it stands, you regret it if you do. Sorry it just seems wrong in so many ways.
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Completely agree there. So I'm watchin' and waitin' for errata. :-\
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Just got the german CRB in my hands.
GCRB p.158 states you only gain PP when raising the magic attribute with karma. Always, whilst creation and after but only with karma.
edit:
GCRB p.160 says the same for Mystic Adepts: 'Jedes Mal, wenn ein Magieradept sein Magieattribut mit Karma steigert, erhält er auch einen kostenlosen Kraftpunkt'
freely translated: 'Every time a Mystic Adept raises his magic attribute with karma, he also gains a free Power Point.'
Seems out of balance imo :o
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Whelp, if I go to Spiel, I think I'll skip Pegasus and only check out CGL's booth. :-\
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Yeah, Mystic Adepts don't need every single advantage Adepts get. IMO rather a big mistake to allow them to get PPs just as fast- there'll be no reason to play an Adept instead of a MysAd.
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Yeah, Mystic Adepts don't need every single advantage Adepts get. IMO rather a big mistake to allow them to get PPs just as fast- there'll be no reason to play an Adept instead of a MysAd.
That was my first thought as well, but MysAds can't take the Metamagic PP, right? That would be a clear advantage on the Adept side. As for MysAdept getting PP when they raise Magic with Karma, I am torn. For me the question arises, is Astral Projection (which is undoubtedly cool) good enough of an incentive for Mages not to go MysAdept. However the thing about MysAds is not Pegasus specific.
Adepts getting PP using Karma during char-gen, is good and well in my opinion. It is other things that do not work out here, as has been discussed in this thread an others.
Michael, since we are best buddies now ( ;) no offense, some humor though). What exactly is it about Pegasus and not CGL that is offending you? I mean CGL did not exactly deliver a good product to begin with and I am not referring to the approach the rules are taking (that one I see as mostly positive).
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MysAds can choose the PP from initiation. It's supposed to be the only way they get them (other than temporary increase from Qi Foci of course).
Having to allocate initiation to PPs is also supposed to be what helps keep MysAds from eating mages' lunches.
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Well one way or the other, MysAds probably should only be able to do one of those two options. Magic via Karma is certainly the more expensive one. Having to make the choice between other Metamagics an PP certainly is a trade off as well, only am I not quite decided on how heavy weights.
Then again the PP Metamagic says "Adepts only", and in SR5 that did also include MysAd. now that I think of it. And if that is true, there is barely a reason not to go MysAd. In that case they could just forgo splitting Mage and Adept all together an only have the MysAd.
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Michael, since we are best buddies now ( ;) no offense, some humor though). What exactly is it about Pegasus and not CGL that is offending you? I mean CGL did not exactly deliver a good product to begin with and I am not referring to the approach the rules are taking (that one I see as mostly positive).
That their 'errata' are at best judgement calls from fans, which shows in some of their mistakes, yet they're occasionally treated as gospel by people. Hopefully CGL errata will come soon so that's all taken care of.
In SR5, an Adept's advantage was getting PP from Magic increases, whereas a Mystic would simply boost their magician abilities with it. But I did have a lot of Mystics despite the downsides. Now the strict chargen makes them even tougher at the start, which I do like since it makes the choice more painful. But until we get errata, no idea how it turns out.
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Michael, since we are best buddies now ( ;) no offense, some humor though). What exactly is it about Pegasus and not CGL that is offending you? I mean CGL did not exactly deliver a good product to begin with and I am not referring to the approach the rules are taking (that one I see as mostly positive).
That their 'errata' are at best judgement calls from fans, which shows in some of their mistakes, yet they're occasionally treated as gospel by people.
OK, that's definitely CGL, but what about Pegasus though?
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That their 'errata' are at best judgement calls from fans...
Not as far as I am told (for what ts worth). To my knowledge there is supposed to be communication about planned errata between CGL and Pegasus. However even if you were right on this one, it would have been what saved a lot of SR5 for me (and a lot of others). Best Judgement calls are being made in translation and layout though, which very well served to clarify things in the past. An important though in all of this would be about what state the source is in, that you have to work with. In case of SR5 that was quite the mess, and to be honest, SR6 seems to have problems similar to SR5. So if you want to protest... maybe stay away from both booths ;)
In SR5, an Adept's advantage was getting PP from Magic increases, whereas a Mystic would simply boost their magician abilities with it. But I did have a lot of Mystics despite the downsides. Now the strict chargen makes them even tougher at the start, which I do like since it makes the choice more painful. But until we get errata, no idea how it turns out.
Yeah waiting eagerly for this one. It certainly would be good to put some limits on the MysAd, but the Adept should not have to suffer for it. The latter is exactly what is happening as far as I am concerned.
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So if you want to protest... maybe stay away from both booths ;)
Even as a joke, the suggestion that I'd be that much of an asshole really pisses me off.
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The chargen rules actually don't state that you can't get extre PP at creation. They do imply that you can't get them from adjustment points, but then the book just says to go look in the magic chapter. With the german text available, the intent seems clearer.
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I've done some tinkering with character sheets yesterday and I don't see why people say "if mysad is as powerful as physad, people will never choose physad" ...
If you have the same amount of points to allocate into different stuff, the less stuff you choose to put the points into the better your character will be at that thing.
The simple fact that mysads have to divide their points into stuff already make them weaker in a way (less min-maxed) you don't need to nerf them beyond that.
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The chargen rules actually don't state that you can't get extre PP at creation. They do imply that you can't get them from adjustment points, but then the book just says to go look in the magic chapter. With the german text available, the intent seems clearer.
The January reprinting of the CRB makes it clear: Adepts have PPs equal to Magic, just the same as after chargen. OTOH Mystic Adepts cannot gain PPs during chargen even if they raise their Magic, but they can lose them due to essence hits.
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I've done some tinkering with character sheets yesterday and I don't see why people say "if mysad is as powerful as physad, people will never choose physad" ...
If you have the same amount of points to allocate into different stuff, the less stuff you choose to put the points into the better your character will be at that thing.
The simple fact that mysads have to divide their points into stuff already make them weaker in a way (less min-maxed) you don't need to nerf them beyond that.
Mystic Adepts needed brought down a peg, but I agree they went overboard. The better move would have been to allow them 1 PP or 2 spells per point of magic at chargen only, however you arrived at the final number. Likewise, mages should have 2 spells per point of magic at chargen, however they got there.
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Mystic Adepts needed brought down a peg, but I agree they went overboard. The better move would have been to allow them 1 PP or 2 spells per point of magic at chargen only, however you arrived at the final number...
I don't know how that would have been bringing Mystic Adepts down a peg at all, then. For the exact same priority array, you can either play an adept with 6 PPs, or an adept with 6PPs who can also conjure spirits, and post-chargen learn spells, to boot!
Limiting MysAds to a a maximum of 4 PPs, and making them come at opportunity cost of knowing spells, at least gives a balance reason to consider playing a (physical) adept who can never summon spirits nor learn spells.
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The chargen rules actually don't state that you can't get extre PP at creation. They do imply that you can't get them from adjustment points, but then the book just says to go look in the magic chapter. With the german text available, the intent seems clearer.
The January reprinting of the CRB makes it clear: Adepts have PPs equal to Magic, just the same as after chargen. OTOH Mystic Adepts cannot gain PPs during chargen even if they raise their Magic, but they can lose them due to essence hits.
Then there is no reason to roll a mysad instead of a physad...
as a mysad I will have to take priority A for attributes, or else I won't be able to handle the mage side AND the adept side together. If I take magic B I will have magic: 3, which will give me 3 power points or 6 spells or anything in-between. And I am stuck with magic: 3, because if I raise magic during chargen I am only making my PP more costly.
Tha also leave me with a priority C skills which and I need a lot of skills since I am both a mage and a adept.
I think the mystic adept should have half the power of a mage and half the power of a adept so to say... but this way... the mysad has, lets say, 1/4 of each...
Just to finish:
The mysad IMO should be potentially as powerful as a mage, and potentially as powerful as an adept... and then slide a bar between the two
But they way it is... its just weaker than both.
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But they way it is... its just weaker than both.
That's how hybrids are SUPPOSED to work. You can do everything? Great. Better damn well not be able to do everything as well as those who can only do one of those things.
If a MysAd can end up with as many power points as a PhysAd, but still conjure and post chargen learn spells, to boot? No, that's not "balance". That's where there's no reason to play a PhysAd.
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Mystic Adepts needed brought down a peg, but I agree they went overboard. The better move would have been to allow them 1 PP or 2 spells per point of magic at chargen only, however you arrived at the final number...
I don't know how that would have been bringing Mystic Adepts down a peg at all, then. For the exact same priority array, you can either play an adept with 6 PPs, or an adept with 6PPs who can also conjure spirits, and post-chargen learn spells, to boot!
Limiting MysAds to a a maximum of 4 PPs, and making them come at opportunity cost of knowing spells, at least gives a balance reason to consider playing a (physical) adept who can never summon spirits nor learn spells.
Yes. But to play "an adept with 6PPs who can also conjure spirits, and post-chargen learn spells" you have to allocate points of attribute in CHA or LOG and points of skills into Conjuring and Sorcery.
which already makes said adept weaker as an adept than a physical adept.
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But they way it is... its just weaker than both.
That's how hybrids are SUPPOSED to work. You can do everything? Great. Better damn well not be able to do everything as well as those who can only do one of those things.
If a MysAd can end up with as many power points as a PhysAd, but still conjure and post chargen learn spells, to boot? No, that's not "balance". That's where there's no reason to play a PhysAd.
Hybrids should be 50%-50% not 25%-25%
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Mystic Adepts needed brought down a peg, but I agree they went overboard. The better move would have been to allow them 1 PP or 2 spells per point of magic at chargen only, however you arrived at the final number...
I don't know how that would have been bringing Mystic Adepts down a peg at all, then. For the exact same priority array, you can either play an adept with 6 PPs, or an adept with 6PPs who can also conjure spirits, and post-chargen learn spells, to boot!
Limiting MysAds to a a maximum of 4 PPs, and making them come at opportunity cost of knowing spells, at least gives a balance reason to consider playing a (physical) adept who can never summon spirits nor learn spells.
Yes. But to play "an adept with 6PPs who can also conjure spirits, and post-chargen learn spells" you have to allocate points of attribute in CHA or LOG and points of skills into Conjuring and Sorcery.
which already makes said adept weaker as an adept than a physical adept.
I think we should agree to disagree as to whether PhysAds being able to go to 6 PPs in chargen and Mysads capping out at 4, IF they pick Magic A, is a good balance or not. Arguing about it isn't going to change either opinion.
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I don't know how that would have been bringing Mystic Adepts down a peg at all, then. For the exact same priority array, you can either play an adept with 6 PPs, or an adept with 6PPs who can also conjure spirits, and post-chargen learn spells, to boot!
See, to me part of that last sentence is the key. 6e elected to treat the symptoms of the incorrect affliction rather than cure the disease. Ask yourself this question: "If spirits and foci were better balanced, how would each mage, adept, and mystic adept look in comparison to one another then?".
As things stand at current with spirit abuse aside (because we all know that is pretty much all you need to be a one man team), Mystic Adepts come out the door considerably inferior to either mage or adept. In the long term, they have the potential to be better than a mage at spellcasting and summoning (because mages cannot access improve ability), and better than an adept at physical defense (equal level combat sense as an even karma total adept, plus increase intuition which adepts cannot compensate for). Those are the only two areas where they have the potential to defeat the other magic archetypes in power though, and doing so is very intensive of their more limited resources. If you really need comparative builds at a respectable karma level I can do that to highlight.
Doing as I suggest would yield the following results at chargen:
1). Mage enters play with Magic 6 and 12 spells.
2). Adept enters play with Magic 6 and 6 PP.
3). "Balanced" Mystic Adept enters play with Magic 6, 3 PP, and 6 spells.
That is a relatively even playing field, with in which Mages and Adepts will have steady growth within their field, and the Mystic can either have steady growth in one and stunted in the other, or intermittent growth in both. At the extreme side of chargen, taking either all PP or all spells, you basically are just playing a Mage or Adept that can give up steady growth to splash into the other field.
In 5e this was a problem due to how many defensive spells there were. In 6th, as it stands now, it is far less of an issue.
If a MysAd can end up with as many power points as a PhysAd, but still conjure and post chargen learn spells, to boot? No, that's not "balance". That's where there's no reason to play a PhysAd.
On this we agree, but at no point in character advancement is that possible. An equally experienced Adept will always have more PP because they get them both on Magic increase and Initiation where the Mys can only get them through Priority and Initiation (or through Initiation post-chargen with the rules I'd prefer).
I think we should agree to disagree as to whether PhysAds being able to go to 6 PPs in chargen and Mysads capping out at 4, IF they pick Magic A, is a good balance or not. Arguing about it isn't going to change either opinion.
This is another really big deal though. With the (good imo) errata, Adepts are back to D magic priority and spending points to get Magic 6 and 6 PP. In order for the Mystic to potentially get 4 PP, they just gave up 8 attribute points. That is a fucking titanic sacrifice that is not remotely worth it karma cost wise.
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This is another really big deal though. With the (good imo) errata, Adepts are back to D magic priority and spending points to get Magic 6 and 6 PP. In order for the Mystic to potentially get 4 PP, they just gave up 8 attribute points. That is a fucking titanic sacrifice that is not remotely worth it karma cost wise.
True, that most Mysads won't even have the 4 PPs due to that phenomenon. Between not being able to bond foci or buy spells in chargen, MysAds come out of chargen with the least momentum of all the magicians. But since they have the MOST potential (assuming a campaign of infinite length/rewards) the back of the pack is absolutely the correct place to begin. IMO. YMMV, and clearly for some it does.
If wishes were fishes and I could issue errata myself (or have designed the game) my preferred idea for knocking MysAds down from where they were in 5e would be to change their nature from being full magicians who trade projection for adept powers, to being Aspected magicians who trade projection for adept powers. MysAds suddenly become much less abusive if they can only conjure or only spellcast.
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I understand where they were going with the Magic priority, but it needs finetuning to be more balanced. I got a few ideas I'll write up in a few weeks or so.
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If wishes were fishes and I could issue errata myself (or have designed the game) my preferred idea for knocking MysAds down from where they were in 5e would be to change their nature from being full magicians who trade projection for adept powers, to being Aspected magicians who trade projection for adept powers. MysAds suddenly become much less abusive if they can only conjure or only spellcast.
Fun fact; when I first read 5e that's exactly what I thought they were. It was ages before I realised my mistake. And I wasn't exactly thrilled when the penny dropped, coz yeah, I'm also in Team Mysads Are OP.
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True, that most Mysads won't even have the 4 PPs due to that phenomenon. Between not being able to bond foci or buy spells in chargen, MysAds come out of chargen with the least momentum of all the magicians. But since they have the MOST potential (assuming a campaign of infinite length/rewards) the back of the pack is absolutely the correct place to begin. IMO. YMMV, and clearly for some it does.
In 5th, I would agree with you totally. This is just no longer the case in 6th though due to secondary changes to specific spells and powers. First, that potential exists only in the two realms I listed above: spellcasting/summoning dice and physical defense pool. I would further argue that unless we are talking extremely high karma totals, you will not notice a substantial advantage when compared to a Mage or Adept.
I agree with your sentiment they should start slower than the other archetypes, but the current reduction is unacceptable.
If wishes were fishes and I could issue errata myself (or have designed the game) my preferred idea for knocking MysAds down from where they were in 5e would be to change their nature from being full magicians who trade projection for adept powers, to being Aspected magicians who trade projection for adept powers. MysAds suddenly become much less abusive if they can only conjure or only spellcast.
That would also be an acceptable re-balancing.
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True, that most Mysads won't even have the 4 PPs due to that phenomenon. Between not being able to bond foci or buy spells in chargen, MysAds come out of chargen with the least momentum of all the magicians. But since they have the MOST potential (assuming a campaign of infinite length/rewards) the back of the pack is absolutely the correct place to begin. IMO. YMMV, and clearly for some it does.
In 5th, I would agree with you totally. This is just no longer the case in 6th though due to secondary changes to specific spells and powers. First, that potential exists only in the two realms I listed above: spellcasting/summoning dice and physical defense pool. I would further argue that unless we are talking extremely high karma totals, you will not notice a substantial advantage when compared to a Mage or Adept.
I agree with your sentiment they should start slower than the other archetypes, but the current reduction is unacceptable.
If wishes were fishes and I could issue errata myself (or have designed the game) my preferred idea for knocking MysAds down from where they were in 5e would be to change their nature from being full magicians who trade projection for adept powers, to being Aspected magicians who trade projection for adept powers. MysAds suddenly become much less abusive if they can only conjure or only spellcast.
That would also be an acceptable re-balancing.
Personally I think the current 6E restrictions are just fine for mysads (maybe even still too good by a slight margin). The simple fact that they have access to ALL things in the magic realm can not be underestimated regardless of how many points they can put into it. They literally have zero drawbacks except for having to divide resources and progress slower.
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Well, progression is way slower in this edition than it was in SR5. Besides the higher downtime cost for training, the recomended rewards for each mission seens lower. So the character will be stuck with what you got from charger for a long time.
So progressing slower is also a huge punishment.
EDIT: Lets see the numbers
If I started with Magic 3 and wanted to go up to magic 4 during progression:
SR5
that would be 20 karma, which I would get in about 4 missions and then I would need a month of training.
now SR6
that would be tha same 20 karma, which now takes about 6 missions to get and then I would need 8 months of training (that the GM is probably not going to give).
SECOND EDIT: While the mystic adept is trying to get their magic to 4, the full magician and the physical adept, both that started with magic 6 are already half way to their second initiation.
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If wishes were fishes and I could issue errata myself (or have designed the game) my preferred idea for knocking MysAds down from where they were in 5e would be to change their nature from being full magicians who trade projection for adept powers, to being Aspected magicians who trade projection for adept powers. MysAds suddenly become much less abusive if they can only conjure or only spellcast.
I also think this would be acceptable and well balanced.
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The simple fact that they have access to ALL things in the magic realm can not be underestimated regardless of how many points they can put into it. They literally have zero drawbacks except for having to divide resources and progress slower.
I don't disagree. In 6th, with the material available thus far, versatility is their primary advantage. How much of an advantage depends on builds and playstyles.
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The simple fact that they have access to ALL things in the magic realm can not be underestimated regardless of how many points they can put into it. They literally have zero drawbacks except for having to divide resources and progress slower.
I don't disagree. In 6th, with the material available thus far, versatility is their primary advantage. How much of an advantage depends on builds and playstyles.
Yeah... maybe it is good as a mage with an adept spash, but as an adept with a mage splash it's weak.
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The simple fact that they have access to ALL things in the magic realm can not be underestimated regardless of how many points they can put into it. They literally have zero drawbacks except for having to divide resources and progress slower.
I don't disagree. In 6th, with the material available thus far, versatility is their primary advantage. How much of an advantage depends on builds and playstyles.
Yeah... maybe it is good as a mage with an adept spash, but as an adept with a mage splash it's weak.
I disagree... if anything the opposite is closer to true though I don't think it matters much on the ratio because advancement can level it out.
Having the ability to have even just 3 or 4 points of adept abilities AND full access to Spirits AND even just 2 spells at the start but with potential to learn as many as you want is a HUGE advantage
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The simple fact that they have access to ALL things in the magic realm can not be underestimated regardless of how many points they can put into it. They literally have zero drawbacks except for having to divide resources and progress slower.
I don't disagree. In 6th, with the material available thus far, versatility is their primary advantage. How much of an advantage depends on builds and playstyles.
Yeah... maybe it is good as a mage with an adept spash, but as an adept with a mage splash it's weak.
I disagree... if anything the opposite is closer to true though I don't think it matters much on the ratio because advancement can level it out.
Having the ability to have even just 3 or 4 points of adept abilities AND full access to Spirits AND even just 2 spells at the start but with potential to learn as many as you want is a HUGE advantage
Ayup. It's a bit of a sneaky advantage but conjuring doesn't care what your priority pick is. At all. No matter how much or how little your MAG value, you have full access to every spirit type. Very powerful.
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Then I am missing something in conjuring... cause it doesn't seem I am going to have a powerfull spirit if my MAG value is low...
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Then I am missing something in conjuring... cause it doesn't seem I am going to have a powerfull spirit if my MAG value is low...
Low magic will limit the Force of a spirit you can summon, sure. But low magic won't limit the number of KINDS of spirits you can summon.
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Then I am missing something in conjuring... cause it doesn't seem I am going to have a powerfull spirit if my MAG value is low...
I haven't been following this thread in detail, but I think the issue is that for Conjuring you can still boost your Magic rating up to 6 (assuming you have the points) and it works just as well as it would for anyone regardless of how few power points or spells you start the game with.
I'm not saying that is actually possible to get to a 6 in Magic as a Mystic Adept and still be a good character, I haven't played around with the character creation for Mystic Adepts. But I think that's why Banshee was saying that adept with splash of mage might be better than the other way around.
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Then I am missing something in conjuring... cause it doesn't seem I am going to have a powerfull spirit if my MAG value is low...
That's just it ... you don't have a low Magic you still use the full value regardless of how much of it is assigned to adept powers. Once you get out of chargen the only limit you have is the amount of power points you can get to spend on powers. Plus Magic has minimal effect on conjuring... only having a 4 instead of 6 reduces your dice pool by 2 and limits you to a mere force 12
EDIT: plus one to what Skalchemist said too
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Theoretically, you could take like Magic D, Metatype A, spend 5 points to boost Magic to 6, and have what is, in essence, an Ork Conjuring Aspect Mage with no restrictions on spell use AND the potential for future adept physical adept coolness. Sure, you'd only have one power point (or 2 spells), but you have room to grow!
I've not tried it, you might run out of points elsewhere or otherwise be screwing yourself over, but it seems interesting to try.
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The 'split' of Magic only applies to 'what freebies do I get for my Magic Priority' for Mystics, it's not a hard split where your Magic rank counts as split for tests.
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Ayup. It's a bit of a sneaky advantage but conjuring doesn't care what your priority pick is. At all. No matter how much or how little your MAG value, you have full access to every spirit type. Very powerful.
Right. Again though, that is more a problem of spirits than of any particular archetype.
Yeah... maybe it is good as a mage with an adept spash, but as an adept with a mage splash it's weak.
I disagree... if anything the opposite is closer to true though I don't think it matters much on the ratio because advancement can level it out.
It really depends on what your goal is. Either statement can be accurate.
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Unless I’ve misread the new printing the only way for mysads to get more power points (other than Qi foci, which shouldn’t be ignored) is to get a power point from initiation...right?! Of course given the karma cost of raising the mag attribute i guess most adepts will be getting it that way too...
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Yeah, initiating is much cheaper than raising Magic. Downside is that metamagics are quite interesting for many mystics, so they face painful choices there.
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Unless I’ve misread the new printing the only way for mysads to get more power points (other than Qi foci, which shouldn’t be ignored) is to get a power point from initiation...right?! Of course given the karma cost of raising the mag attribute i guess most adepts will be getting it that way too...
Correct.
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Theoretically, you could take like Magic D, Metatype A, spend 5 points to boost Magic to 6, and have what is, in essence, an Ork Conjuring Aspect Mage with no restrictions on spell use AND the potential for future adept physical adept coolness. Sure, you'd only have one power point (or 2 spells), but you have room to grow!
I've not tried it, you might run out of points elsewhere or otherwise be screwing yourself over, but it seems interesting to try.
You don't need Metatype A. Skills E (Conjuring and Spell-casting, use karma to grab a bunch of 1's and specializations for your Basic Runner Skills) , Magic D, Resources C, Meta B (Magic to 6), Attributes A. Buy a bunch of Qi foci for whatever Adept powers you're after and bond 'em as you go. Mentor Spirit gets you an Adept power as well. Only two spells to start, but 5 karma a pop is a deal and bonding Foci is a moderate Karma spend.
Nuyen from runs goes to a Force 4 Power Foci and more Qi Foci.
Initiation is delayed until Foci and Spells are picked up, so there is certainly some drawbacks for building this way. I would argue that a 6 Magic Spellcasting, Conjurer with a splash of Adept Powers will likely be just fine at any table for an extended period though.
I've mentioned it before but Skills E is much more doable in 6th than 5th. 5th skills E was a horrible series of compromises. In 6th, it's pretty doable for several reasons. Its as significant change to the Priority Character build Meta as the changes to Metatype Priority IMO.
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Again could be a mis-read but they seem to have omitted the 'post char gen' title from the advancement table, implying that initiation, spell purchase etc can be done at char gen?! Unless there's now something else in the text that disallows that??
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It really depends on how you read this:
The points
are spent on skill or attribute advancement, as
well as additional funds to get those last gear
pieces you might have missed or an additional
quality (though the limit of six qualities still applies).
Under a strict reading, you're not allowed to buy anything other than skills, attributes or nuyen with customization karma.
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Again could be a mis-read but they seem to have omitted the 'post char gen' title from the advancement table, implying that initiation, spell purchase etc can be done at char gen?! Unless there's now something else in the text that disallows that??
yeah the reason for the absence of a distinction is because the prices don't change after character generation.
As Michael Chandra mentioned, the list of things you're allowed to spend karma on is listed in Step 4 of the character generation process.
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Think I’m happy to say karma is karma, why wait?! Char gen is a bit arbitrary from a timeline point of view anyway so why have an unbonded foci and why not have one initiation or submersion under your belt?? I get that’s house rule territory but if you spend karma on that you aren’t spending it on something else so it should balance out... or am I missing a fundamental here?
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Chargen isn't Character Advancement. So just like in SR4 and SR5, you can't start initiated, and I think that makes a lot of sense. It also balances out more nicely when people spend their karma to round their character, rather than immediately starting the min-maxing.
As for binding, there I do agree that I think karma should be considered part of the foci expense in chargen.
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On the other hand, isn't one of the core design philosophies of 6e to make all the really fun stuff accessible from the word go? If that's true for equipment and cyber, it would make sense to lump initiation in there too.
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I can understand going with it as houserule, but I suspect it will be significantly imbalancing and also doesn't make that much sense, since the idea was that you can buy all the toys, not that you can do everything from the start. You can't start at skill rank 9 either, or with Expertises, so it makes perfect sense that you can't start Initiated. It also means the mage/adept has less to grow into magic-wise, which can be a bummer.
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While what you say is true, initiation isn't analogous to expertise, or high skill ranks. Initiation has always been analogous to improving the rating or grade of cyberware, which has been made available at character generation if I understand correctly. Since those are fairly unrestricted (compared to previous editions), initiation shouldn't be unbalancing, theoretically.
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It really depends on how you read this:
The points
are spent on skill or attribute advancement, as
well as additional funds to get those last gear
pieces you might have missed or an additional
quality (though the limit of six qualities still applies).
Under a strict reading, you're not allowed to buy anything other than skills, attributes or nuyen with customization karma.
I had the same question in July 2019 while developing Genesis, which leads to the following question from Pegasus to Catalyst:
Question: p. 66, Spend Customization Karma: It says here that he Karma points "are spent on skill or attribute advancement, as well as additional funds to get those last gear pieces you might have missed or an additional quality (though the limit of six qualities still applies)." Is that an exhaustive list, i.e. does it mean that you cannot buy spells, complex forms, power points (for mystic adepts) and that you also cannot initiate/submerge with the customization karma?
Answer from J.Hardy: "That is not exhaustive. You can spend it anywhere."
But as we discussed that already in a different thread: Sometimes answers Pegasus got, are not 'official' until published from CGL in any kind. So take it with a grain of salt.
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If you can buy spells in chargen, the entire Magic priority needs to be rewritten for Magicians. The only reason it currently makes sense is if their spells are restricted.
That said, since I consider Initiating something for experienced runners, I wouldn't allow it in chargen.
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I can understand going with it as houserule, but I suspect it will be significantly imbalancing
Initiation is costs 10+(new grade) karma. If you disallow it during chargen, the mage will have enough karma to do it after (at most) a couple of runs anyway. I don't see why moving the point at where they can be initiate grade 1 by a few sessions can be "significantly imbalancing." If it's unbalancing fresh out of chargen, it's gonna be unbalancing after three runs, too.
Edit - I missed this one:
If you can buy spells in chargen, the entire Magic priority needs to be rewritten for Magicians. The only reason it currently makes sense is if their spells are restricted.
This makes no sense. A mage character can start buying spells after one run. If the ability to buy spells at chargen is unbalancing, then the ability to buy them after one run can't be balanced either. There's nothing special about where you draw the line between "just after chargen" and "after one run".
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While what you say is true, initiation isn't analogous to expertise, or high skill ranks. Initiation has always been analogous to improving the rating or grade of cyberware, which has been made available at character generation if I understand correctly. Since those are fairly unrestricted (compared to previous editions), initiation shouldn't be unbalancing, theoretically.
It also plays a significant role in widening the mage's toolbox via metamagics, lots of which have pretty important in-game mechanics. Flexible Signature and Masking can be crucial in a black trenchcoat game, for example. Quickening is critical at a certain sort of high-powered table (although I personally think it should be yeeted into the sun.) Spell Shaping is pretty important for tactical flexibility. These aren't mere nice-to-haves for mages.
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If you can buy spells in chargen, the entire Magic priority needs to be rewritten for Magicians. The only reason it currently makes sense is if their spells are restricted.
That said, since I consider Initiating something for experienced runners, I wouldn't allow it in chargen.
Nothing about 6th Editions priorities makes much sense, so why should the Magic column be an exeption? ::)
Good lord, I hope that Karmagen comes back so more peoply abandon that mess ...
That being said, I don´t see any balancing problem at all with mages being able to buy spells at chargen. If you really want to set off the additional spells off from the spells from the priority table: Why not make it mandatory to buy the spell formular as well? Thats my current houserule for Karma-bought spells at chargen (I transferred that one over to my improvised Karmagen System as well.)
Initiation (and Submersion) is on another page, though. IMO, that should continue to be a big step in character advancement. In fact, I think that it´s way to easy right now, especially when you look at the severely overpowered option to get one P.P. as an Adept.
(It doesn´t help that the balancing for the different Initiaton / Submersion Techniques generally is all over the place, either. I mean, just look at the Fixation Metamagic. Why does that even exist? As a final reminder that Alchemy will never be a worthwhile option?)
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The bottom line is this: limiting options on character building is less fun than opening options.
Street samurai can buy any ware they want.
Riggers can buy any vehicles, drones, and consoles they want.
Deckers can buy any decks they want.
Adepts can buy power points, effectively disregarding the priority table entirely.
Open up spells for mages, complex forms for technomancers, and allow mystic adepts to get their full 6 magic points to split. As it stands you have not successfully balanced the archetypes against themselves, or even balanced the priority selections against themselves, so what are we trying to accomplish here?
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The bottom line is this: limiting options on character building is less fun than opening options.
Lorymyr, I get your point, but this is a personal preference. Some people, including myself, enjoy having to make hard decisions at char gen because our options are limited, not just in Shadowrun but in many other games.
I'm not saying you are wrong to want a system that is more open and allows more options. I'm also not saying that the current system in 6E has no problems or issues; it certainly does. I'm just saying this is another place where it is hard to please everyone with a game design.
EDIT: I'm not talking about limiting options to "balance" anything; I'm honestly pretty skeptical of that whole concept. I'm talking about limiting options so that players have to make difficult choices when making their characters and really think about what they care about the most. I personally like that in RPGs; I find I am usually more creative when I am working within a set of tight limits than when I have a blank sheet of paper in front of me. In this sense, I like conceptually the idea of the priority system a lot, although its implementation leaves a lot to be desired.
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Those things are not mutually exclusive though. You can have a wide range of options available while still only being capable of selecting a few.
Edit: For example, adding spells, power points, foci, initiation, ect. to the list of things available at chargen is increasing options, but you still only have your normal 50-70 karma to spend on them. If anything that should add depth to your position, because now you have even harder choices to make on what to do with that karma.
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Those things are not mutually exclusive though. You can have a wide range of options available while still only being capable of selecting a few.
Edit: For example, adding spells, power points, foci, initiation, ect. to the list of things available at chargen is increasing options, but you still only have your normal 50-70 karma to spend on them. If anything that should add depth to your position, because now you have even harder choices to make on what to do with that karma.
Lormyr, this is a preference, not a universal. A wide range of options is fun for many people, but it isn't necessarily fun for everyone. As an example, consider the popularity of the Powered by the Apocalypse games, which typically have very focused playbooks with a limited number of options in them.
Again, I'm not saying you are wrong to like what you like. And I'm definitely not saying the current 6E system makes sense in the way it is structured. I'm just saying what you are claiming is universal is not really so.
The only reason I am even mentioning it is that so much online discourse about RPGs in general gets heated and difficult because people make assumptions that the things they enjoy in RPGs are the things everyone loves and therefore the mechanics that support those things are the best mechanics. People talk past each other about system level things like "balance" when the whole conversation could probably have stopped at "here is something i like!"/"I don't like that very much".
Its useful to say:
* I think this mechanic sucks because its trying to do X but is not doing that.
* I think this mechanic sucks because I don't enjoy the effects it produces.
* I think this mechanic sucks because it causes these problems with these other mechanics.
But I don't think it is very useful to say:
* I think X mechanics are always better than Y mechanics.
Because that is really just code for:
* I like X mechanics better than Y mechanics.
and you can't/shouldn't argue about what people like, what is the point? We all like what we like; its usually pretty inexplicable why it happens.
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We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.