Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Fatespinner on <10-08-19/0207:42>
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Hi all,
I have a question about a hacking strategy and if I understand it right.
Assume that your decker does have Log 6, Int 5 and Cracking Group 6. He also runs a deck with 2 program slots and for simplicity all attributes at 5. The goal is to find a file in a host.
1. Hack on the Fly against the host using teamwork rules. Decker and agent are not running silent.
2. Decker and agent go silent after success.
3. Decker enters the host and invites the agent.
4. Decker and agent search for the file.
5. Patrol IC detects silent icons and tries to find them.
So now the following might happen.
6. Patrol IC detects either decker or agent.
7. Decker and agent both attack Patrol IC with Hammer. The IC is probably killed, if both hit. This is even more effective if there is another decker. After this the discovered icon goes silent again.
So now the host could launch another Patrol IC. The IC would probably be killed again. Would the host be able to do something against the intruders? Am I missing something? It seems to be a very effective approach against lower rating hosts (4 or less).
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1. Hack on the Fly against the host using teamwork rules. Decker and agent are not running silent.
I would allow this.
2. Decker and agent go silent after success.
Sure.
But note that in many cases running silent might cause more questions than just change your icon and just blend in...
3. Decker enters the host and invites the agent.
You can not invite someone to place a mark on an icon you are not the legit owner of.
Your Agent and you also don't share marks or spotting information.
If you wish your Agent to gain access to the host then you could teamwork with your Agent as it tries to place its own mark on the host...
Your agent need to have its own mark on the host in order to take the Enter Host action.
4. Decker and agent search for the file.
If you are both inside the host then I would allow that your Agent teamwork to help you find the correct file a bit quicker (but the base time inside a host is normally just 1 minute anyway).
So now the host could launch another Patrol IC. The IC would probably be killed again. Would the host be able to do something against the intruders? Am I missing something? It seems to be a very effective approach against lower rating hosts (4 or less).
Trying to fight it out inside a host is an uphill battle. Host will just continue to launch IC every combat turn. Your overwatch score will just go higher and higher. Host may also alert security spider which might join the fight after a few combat turns unless he was already in the host from the start.
If spider (or IC) notice you then you need to successfully take the Hide action to become unspotted. If spider (or IC) have mark on you then you first need to erase mark before you can take the hide action against them.
Your overwatch score will increase with each hit IC get when defending against your illegal Data Spike attacks and your illegal Hide sleaze attempts. Eventually your (or your agents) overwatch score will hit 40 which will trigger Host Convergence.
Host Convergence mean that the host get 3 marks on the icon (which mean it will also automatically spot the icon, the Icon also cant take the illegal Hide sleaze action to become unspotted while host have marks on the Icon) and the physical location of your cyberdeck is reported to the Grid owner you were just using as well as the owner of the Host. Expect real-life security.
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Ok. Thanks for the reply. I forget about host convergence. That would put a fast end to the tactic. I am not sure if the agent needs a mark to enter the host. If I shut it down before entering the host and then restart it, then it should be also inside the host, because it runs on the same cyberdeck. Otherwise I would be able to take action outside of the host through the agent.
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At my table I also houseruled that teamwork on mark-getting was allowed, but only the lead gets the mark.
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Would I need to run silent at all? If I get a mark and log into the host. Wouldn't I then be a legit user of the system until I do an attack or sleaze action? So I could search for the file and would only have watch for IC if I hack the file after I found it.
The rulebook states, that getting a mark is illegal, but not the owning of a mark. So patrol IC should not be alerted unless I do something strange.
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It depends on whether you match the scenery. If your icon is steampunk and they're expecting corporate suit icons, or you log in at a time where nobody should be working so Patrol IC will distrust you..
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Your physical cyberdeck is connected to a grid. When you use it you will start at the 'entrance' of said grid. From there your matrix persona can move into hosts or to other grids. Your agent is a persona of its own. When your agent is booting up it will form its persona of its own and it will also start at the 'entrance' of the grid your cyberdeck is connected to. It doesn't share your spotting information and it don't share your marks. If your agent wish to enter a host it need to place its own mark on the host.
As long as you change your icon so you appear to belong in the host and as long as you don't take any illegal matrix actions (matrix search is a legal Data Processing action) while inside the host (patrol IC can check what your last used matrix action was) there is often no need to run silent at all.
SR5 p. 69
Knowing the emphasis security places on perception makes it all the more important to adopt the infiltration techniques that work in the meatworld. Most importantly, look like you belong. If you’re going into a crowded host, for example, why run silent? That’s a great way to call attention to yourself, oddly enough. Just let your icons move with the crowd of others, and make sure your actions are so smooth that they don’t call attention to you. Conversely, are you going to a host predicated on secrecy? Like, say, you decided to run into MI-5 because you’re tired of breathing? Then run silent. Spies are slipping in and out of those places all the time, so the demiGODs won’t be automatically alerted to another silent icon.
Having said that, you should probably always run silent before you take an attack action (like Crack File to be able to copy a protected file icon) since if you are not running silent by then you would be automatically spotted...
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I'm curious why you'd bother to go silent in step 2. You have a mark on the host, whether it's illicitly put there or not it now makes you in the eyes of the host an authorized user. Running Silent inside a host just means Patrol IC and/or a Spider only needs to ask "Are there any Silent Running icons in the host right now?" and the jig begins to be up: they only need 1 hit on their matrix perception test and it's not opposed. That doesn't spot you, but it does alert the IC/Spider that there's someone here who probably shouldn't be, and they can respond accordingly. And you have no way to prevent or delay that from happening... other than not running silent in the first place.
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Well the idea was to be already silent, when the spider or patrol ic starts to scan, because they can only unhide one icon per roll. So for a short go in and steal data run it might buy you one or two turns.
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Right, but again why bother going silent to do your search? It's not an illegal action. They can see your icon if you're not running silent, but if you're not doing anything illegal, what are you afraid they'll see? Why suffer the -2 dice penalty if you don't have to?
Ok, granted, if you don't make your icon look like what other employees' or users' icons look like you might stand out... so change your icon. it takes a single simple action :D If you know what form your icon should take to look like it belongs, you can even do that prior to entering the host.
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That is some solid advice.
I am playing a decker for the first time and I find it difficult to know how to hack correctly. Most hosts have a high rating by the book and if I roll about 12-14 dice then there is a high failure rate. Which is not so critical for attack action, but if you fail at a sleaze, then thibgs get dangerous fast.
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Right, but again why bother going silent to do your search? It's not an illegal action. They can see your icon if you're not running silent, but if you're not doing anything illegal, what are you afraid they'll see? Why suffer the -2 dice penalty if you don't have to?
Ok, granted, if you don't make your icon look like what other employees' or users' icons look like you might stand out... so change your icon. it takes a single simple action :D If you know what form your icon should take to look like it belongs, you can even do that prior to entering the host.
So Impersonation, Disguise and Con are good complementary skills for a hacker to get past modern system defense software.
Hack to enter, then disguise as a normal user and do legal stuff. When you need to do an illegal operation, then try to do it, when no patrol IC is around (if it is a sleaze action) or go silent and do your stuff fast (if it is an attack action).
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So Impersonation, Disguise and Con are good complementary skills for a hacker to get past modern system defense software.
Social skills will have zero effect on Patrol IC.
Hack to enter, then disguise as a normal user and do legal stuff. When you need to do an illegal operation, then try to do it, when no patrol IC is around (if it is a sleaze action) or go silent and do your stuff fast (if it is an attack action).
The "disguise" part here is just the Change Icon legal matrix action. It will have no effect at all on a matrix perception test, but at least it will look like you belong on a first glance.
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Well Disguise and Impersonate would help you to change your icon better (or can you simply copy an icon that you see?) and to look like you belong there and do normal work (fake matrix actions and stuff like that). But unless you are in a part of the host, where only a limited number of people are allowed to go, there would be no need for a perfect disguise. After all there will also be subcontractors, home office workers and other people be running around.
Is identity theft possible? Could you simply pose as a legit user by simply having a mark and a know persona icon? Can you check somebodies SIN via the Comlink? After all a mark is similar to an account+password and the number of marks are your permission level. But IRL an account is often linked to some information and in the future it will probably be the same. So could you use your Hack on the Fly to "get a mark" of a specific user? That would allow you to pose as that person in the host.
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Xenon is right in that the Social skills won't help against IC. Mechanically, IC makes Matrix Perception tests. See the sidebar on pg. 235 regarding the sorts of things IC can learn by inspecting your icon. The last action you performed (if it was illegal) and programs you're actively running can tip the Host off that you're probably a Hacker, although in certain contexts other things may also be suspicious (maybe the IC notices that your commcode is Hackerman3000@Shadohack.horizon and that really doesn't look like what the company employees' commcodes would look like, even though you made your Persona Icon conform with employee Icon standards..)
However, social skills ARE absolutely useable on Spiders: they're people too, afterall. And technically, you can't even tell the difference between IC and a Spider until you inspect their Persona anyway and ask that question on a Matrix Perception test.
All that being said, hackers have ABSOLUTELY good reasons to take Disguise/Con/etc. If you know anything about real life hacking, the primary skill in most hacking is social engineering. You talk to authorized users, get them to give you their legit credentials, and you use them. In game terms, tricking an employee to give you their credentials (or, lol, finding them written down on a sticky inside their desk) essentially replaces the Hack on the Fly/Brute Force stage of the hack: You just log in as the employee, gaining however many Mark(s) the employee is supposed to have (probably just the 1). Even better, you'll also already have whatever marks on files/devices the employee would have. You can also use social engineering to find out passcodes the employee uses to bypass File Protection.
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Is identity theft possible?
Identity theft (as in "borrowing" or "stealing" someone else's SIN) is not a "thing" in Shadowrun.
But it is also not needed since SIN verification systems are used to verify that you are a legit citizen.
If you wish to pretend that you are a legit citizen then you get a fake SIN (any fake SIN, of high enough rating, will do)
The result of a SIN verification system is one out of the following three:
1. There is a SIN and it is legit
2. There is a SIN and it appear to be legit, but you might or might not want to investigate it further.
3. There is a SIN but it is fake. SIN have been automatically burned and local authorities have been notified.
SIN verification systems are not there to verify who you really are or if you belong.
To do that corps will use all kinds of security devices (facial recognition, palm prints, key codes, ID badges, proximity RFID cards and card readers, retinal scanners, DNA scanners, voice recognition etc).
There are a lot rules on how to successfully breach each of them.
Could you simply pose as a legit user by simply having a mark and a know persona icon?
There is actually an advanced action called Masquerade found at Kill Code p. 40 that let you temporary impersonate another persona. Intercepting calls, using their social media, read their email history.... (but you are not considered the matrix owner of his devices and financial transactions have too many double checks to work). This is an action that a social face/hacker will have a lot of use for.
If you know anything about real life hacking, the primary skill in most hacking is social engineering. You talk to authorized users, get them to give you their legit credentials, and you use them.
It seem as if 'ownership' is a big thing in the SR5 matrix and that files and devices always 'know' if it is really you or not. Marks are also individual. In order to gain access on something you need to have your own mark on it.
There are only three ways to get your mark on a file or icon:
1. Owner invite you to place mark
2. You force the icon to accept your mark (by taking the illegal brute force action)
3. You trick the icon to accept your mark (by taking the illegal hack on the fly action).
Having said that; You can totally 'influence' the legit owner to invite you to place mark on their icons. For example by using Commanding Voice, Control Actions or Puppeteer to 'force' the owner by using magic or resonance. By using Con, Leadership or Intimidate to trick, command or force the user to invite you to place your mark on his icons by using social skills.
But it does not seem as if you are allowed to 'log in' AS the owner (in a traditional sense anyway) and through that gain all access that he normally have. The closest thing you get to that is the Masquerade action from Kill Code that let you impersonate the owner for awhile.
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If you know anything about real life hacking, the primary skill in most hacking is social engineering. You talk to authorized users, get them to give you their legit credentials, and you use them.
It seem as if 'ownership' is a big thing in the SR5 matrix and that files and devices always 'know' if it is really you or not. Marks are also individual. In order to gain access on something you need to have your own mark on it.
There are only three ways to get your mark on a file or icon:
1. Owner invite you to place mark
2. You force the icon to accept your mark (by taking the illegal brute force action)
3. You trick the icon to accept your mark (by taking the illegal hack on the fly action).
Having said that; You can totally 'influence' the legit owner to invite you to place mark on their icons. For example by using Commanding Voice, Control Actions or Puppeteer to 'force' the owner by using magic or resonance. By using Con, Leadership or Intimidate to trick, command or force the user to invite you to place your mark on his icons by using social skills.
But it does not seem as if you are allowed to 'log in' AS the owner (in a traditional sense anyway) and through that gain all access that he normally have. The closest thing you get to that is the Masquerade action from Kill Code that let you impersonate the owner for awhile.
The Matrix rules do not address "legitimate" use of the Matrix, really. And not at all, with regards to Hosts: the rules ONLY govern hacking them and how they respond to being hacked. It should be fairly self-evident that legit users don't have to Hack on the Fly/Brute Force just to clock in at the beginning of the work day. Whatever mechanic they use isn't given. Maybe the GM will make that unspecified mechanic be available to an enterprising hacker. But, sure, then again maybe not.
This reminds me of a slight tangent: Certain Hosts are open to the public. Literally, all you have to do is ask nicely and the host invites your mark. See pg 220:
Marks are routinely invited and given for normal, everyday,
legal use of various services. They act as keys, permission
slips, invitations, and account privileges on every
icon in the virtual world. For example, the Seattle Public
Library invites over 50,000 marks per day for its VR books,
films, trideos, and other items in its collection.
Sure, "hacking" your way into the Seattle Public Library is hardly a feat to brag about, but the principle exists. Maybe the Host will invite a mark, but only if you reciprocally accept one or more marks on your own persona (so security can keep an eye on you), or only if you pay 50 nuyen to access the host, or only if an ID badge (that you socially engineered away from an employee) is scanned...
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It should be fairly self-evident that legit users don't have to Hack on the Fly/Brute Force just to clock in at the beginning of the work day.
When they were first employed they were probably offered an invitation to place their mark on the host. They accepted the invitation, placed their mark on the host and since then they have been allowed to take the the Enter host action.
Since a regular wage slave is not considered to be the owner of the host he or she cannot invite you to place a mark on the host no matter how good your social skills are. The wage slave can only invite you to place marks on their own file icons and device icons.
SR5 p. 236 Recognition Keys
There are three ways to get a mark on an icon. The first is the legitimate way: the icon invites you to add a mark. For example, when you pay the cover to get into the host of Dante’s Inferno, the host sends you an invite to mark it so you can enter and join the party. The other two ways are by hacking, both Matrix actions: Brute Force (the loud way) or Hack on the Fly (the sneaky way).
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Well remember marks expire at the end of every session. Employees need to gain marks on the Host likely every day. Maybe more than once per day, if you have a crappy commlink that needs to be rebooted periodically.
But, sure. Maybe employees simply use the "Host invites a Mark" mechanic. So, you've just kicked the can on the Social Engineering: A hacker can use social skills to get what she needs in order for the Host to "think" she's an employee and invite the Mark.
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Maybe you should just steal an employee's commlink and change ownership of that one.
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Maybe more than once per day, if you have a crappy commlink that needs to be rebooted periodically.
I can't honestly remember the last time I rebooted my smartphone. Two months ago? three? Odds are that future wage slaves are connected 24/7 and pretty much never reboot their commlinks at all. And even if they do, the host you work in will probably simply invite you to place a new mark directly when you come back on-line anyway.
SR5 p. 236 Recognition Keys
Marks only last a single Matrix session and are deleted when you reboot. This is rarely an issue for most devices because they almost never need to reboot, and when they do the hosts and other services usually have a standing offer, so re-marking them takes seconds.
Maybe you should just steal an employee's commlink and change ownership of that one.
Once reboot your persona to start it up on your new commlink it seem as if you still need to place your own unique marks in order for your persona to enter hosts, edit files or control devices (doesn't seem to matter who the commlink's previous owner was).
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But, sure. Maybe employees simply use the "Host invites a Mark" mechanic. So, you've just kicked the can on the Social Engineering: A hacker can use social skills to get what she needs in order for the Host to "think" she's an employee and invite the Mark.
Probably there is somewhere a list with commlink codes that identify users who belong to the host or who are allowed to have access. So if you could bring the HR to list you as a temporary allowed user (maybe via a subcontrator or something like that), then you will get invited to the host as long as you are listed.
That allows not only social engineering, but also hacking that file. If you hack a host and then find and modify this file, you will get normal access to the host. Which might be very useful for data search in the host and entering the host during a run. Of course you have to succeed at the first hack, but it offers you the possibility to reenter and monitor and search a host for a longer time of period without having to worry about Overwatch, but you are legally in the host. Maybe you have to hack to get access to certain files and areas of the host, but until then you should not be bothered by IC.
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Maybe more than once per day, if you have a crappy commlink that needs to be rebooted periodically.
I can't honestly remember the last time I rebooted my smartphone. Two months ago? three?
Well Android at least reminds you that you should reboot your phone periodically. And I can imagine that commlinks regularly reboot in order to have a consistent system state and the remove any unwanted marks from ads or hacker.
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Matrix sessions also don't persist while you're asleep. Even if your commlink never needs a reboot, your brain still does.
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Spoken like a quitter. Use Long Haul and work for 120 hours, then you get 48 hours off.
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Probably there is somewhere a list with commlink codes that identify users who belong to the host or who are allowed to have access.
More likely that the host is set to automatically re-invite specific matrix personas.
If you hack a host and then find and modify this file, you will get normal access to the host.
SR5 p. 236 seem to be pretty explicit that there are only three ways to gain a mark on an icon.
1. Owner of the icon invite you to place your mark on the icon
2. You illegally force the icon to accept your mark
3. You illegally trick the icon to accept your mark
Editing files does not seem to be one of them...
it offers you the possibility to reenter and monitor and search a host for a longer time of period without having to worry about Overwatch...
I am pretty sure this does not work in SR5.
If you wish to stay on-line longer even after causing ripples in the matrix you might want to have a technomancer sustain a static veil and/or repeat thread low level cleaner on your matrix persona.
Matrix sessions also don't persist while you're asleep.
Book seem to suggest otherwise...
SR5 p. 229 Dumpshock & Link-Locking
Usually, if you fall unconscious in VR, your commlink or deck automatically switches you to AR.
SR5 p. 236 Recognition Keys
Marks only last a single Matrix session and are deleted when you reboot. This is rarely an issue for most devices because they almost never need to reboot