Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: hulka on <10-15-19/0913:28>
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Is IC count like programms in the host? Becouse if Yes, I donnt have to fight with IC and only use Crash Program.
Crash Program
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Device Rating (Major)
Admin
You overload part of your target’s memory and scramble one of its running programs. You need to specify which program you’re trying to crash; you can learn what your target is running either with a Matrix Perception action or by observing the program in action. If you succeed, the program is scrambled: it ends and cannot be restarted until the device it was running on is rebooted.
I hack to Host and see Hunter with Net in his hand. I Do Percepeption Test and rocognize code of Tar Baby IC. If its program Crash it, if not fight start or run.
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Technically, IC are programs. But since Hosts are not Devices they are not bound by the letter of the rule which states that "it ends and cannot be restarted until the device it was running on is rebooted".
EDIT:
https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29862.msg527982#msg527982
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I agree with zerosum.
I do wish that the CRB would have spelled it somewhat more out, that you cant just crash IC programs like that.
Especially since the CRB went somewhat lighter on the definitions of personas, files, devices and "other".
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IC (and Agents) make mechanical sense if you classify them as Persona Icons. IIRC that is what they were in 5th. I honestly don't know of the top of my head if IC were called out as Persona Icons or not in 6th CRB.
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IC (and Agents) make mechanical sense if you classify them as Persona Icons. IIRC that is what they were in 5th. I honestly don't know of the top of my head if IC were called out as Persona Icons or not in 6th CRB.
It also used to be made explicit that Crash only works on cyberprograms, which IC are not.
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It also used to be made explicit that Crash only works on cyberprograms, which IC are not.
Hmm, so it could actually also be used to crash skillsofts of various sorts.
Could be embarrasing if you suddenly forgot japaneese when doing "etiquette" stuff with the local yakuza.
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IC is not a program, so no ... but I don't see a problem with house ruling that it work on IC if you wanted to but I would also rule that a Host can reset it as a major action instead of doing a full reboot. You could use it as a delaying tactic then at least.
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IC is not a program, so no ... but I don't see a problem with house ruling that it work on IC if you wanted to but I would also rule that a Host can reset it as a major action instead of doing a full reboot. You could use it as a delaying tactic then at least.
Pg 185 does use "IC programs" a couple of times, which would lead to players and GMs coming to the conclusion they are "just" programs.
I can see that the "programs" section on page 184 lists normal programs. And on page 198 theres "rigger programs". I presume that by "programs" then its meant be just those programs listed on page 184... and maybe also page 198?
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I have once more question.
For example:
Acid
Defense: Willpower + Firewall
Acid IC is about wearing down the defenses of intruders so that the other IC can finish it off. When Acid IC hits in cybercombat, the target’s Firewall attribute is reduced by 1 per net hit, reducing the effective defenses. Lost points are restored after leaving the host, at a rate of 1 point per minute.
What pool of dice use IC? Attack Rating vs Defensive Rating is for Edges not for roll attack. If Im hecker my attacks are Data Spike and Tarpit, or i can use Crash Program, but how attack IC?
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What pool of dice use IC? Attack Rating vs Defensive Rating is for Edges not for roll attack. If Im hecker my attacks are Data Spike and Tarpit, or i can use Crash Program, but how attack IC?
Page 186:
IC
These are the types of IC a host may throw at unwary intruders. All IC use (Host Rating x 2) for their attack rolls, Attack Rating, and Condition Monitor, and (Data Processing x 2) + 3D6 for Initiative. Defensive rolls and effects vary by IC type.
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Thank You.
Its little hidden and I see it now. CRB p.186
"All IC use (Host Rating x 2) for Attack Rating, Condition Monitor, and most rolls."
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Quick question: do you have the PDF version of the book?
The reason I ask is because it seems this is part of the Errata. The section I quoted was from the GenCon version of the physical book. Your quote comes from the Errata:
p. 186, IC
Replace the second sentence with the following:
All IC use (Host Rating x 2) for Attack Rating, Condition Monitor, and most rolls. Their Initiative is (Data Processing x 2) + 3D6. Defensive rolls and effects vary by IC type.
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Yes , i bought pdf. And there is erratta implemented.
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They probably made "attack rolls" into "most rolls" because things like Matrix Perception exist.
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They probably made "attack rolls" into "most rolls" because things like Matrix Perception exist.
That seems to be the case, which I find a bit sub-optimal... attacking is what most of them do afterall.
...but what is the hosts attack rating uses for? If all IC use rating×2 for their attack rating. Why would you ever put rating +3 in a host?
I think it would have been easier to just use normal matrix attack rating calculations for ICs sleaze+ attack as normal.. or am I missing something?
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Cybercombat CRB p.179
Attack Rating is the persona’s Attack + Sleaze. Defense Rating is the target’s Data Processing + Firewall.
IC CRB p.186
These are the types of IC a host may throw at unwary intruders. All IC use (Host Rating x 2) for Attack Rating, Condition Monitor, and most rolls. Their Initiative is (Data Processing x 2) + 3D6. Defensive rolls and effects vary by IC type. Defensive rolls and effects vary by IC type.
example:Acid IC
"When Acid IC hits in cybercombat"
HOST CRB p.185
For example, a rating 4 host might have Attack 5, Sleaze 4, Data Processing 7, Firewall 6.
A host’s attributes are shared by itself and its IC programs.
I agree. This rules are a little contradictory. This is cyber combat , but different rules.
In this Host IC have AR8 according to IC rules or AR 9 according to Cybercombat rules. Defensive Rating is 13. And Dicepool what IC apply vs hacker is 8. No progarms or action, only pure code against hacker. Hecker defensive roll is dependend to IC.
Hacker use his Data Spike or Tarpit action discrabed in Matrix actions section
Its right?
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In Shadowrun, specific rules (in this case that specifically apply to IC) will always override the general rule.
SR6 p. 186 IC
All IC use (Host Rating x 2) for Attack Rating, Condition Monitor, and most rolls. Their Initiative is (Data Processing x 2) + 3D6. Defensive rolls and effects vary by IC type.
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But whats the purpose of an attack Attribute of the host then?
As hulka said; page 186 says hosts share their Attributes with their IC.
Yet the next page says their attack rating is calculated with rating*2.
So by RAW that would mean an IC can have A:8 S: 7 D: 5 and F: 6
And have AR 10 (rating 5*2) DR: 11 (D+F) as the files had nothing specific on their DR. A condition monitor of 10 ( rating 5*2) and 10 Dice on most rolls which most likely means their hit Rolls.
I do believe though that the AR og rating*2 is an error and should be errataed
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Correct.
Then Host may not have Attack and Sleaze attributes, Only Data Procesing and Firewall. Host itself cannot attack. He has IC for this work.
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Caught me on my phone again, so I don't have my file handy.
Thought this was already in errata, but if not then this is another case of Attack rating being misused because it was written before that term was designated for edge purposes. The IC rating x2 is meant to represent their skill+attribute dice pool for making attacks, etc.
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Correct.
Then Host may not have Attack and Sleaze attributes, Only Data Procesing and Firewall. Host itself cannot attack. He has IC for this work.
The Host can use Sleaze to run Silent. But Attack is really not used anywhere for Hosts in the Rules as written at the moment. So i would as GM put their stats always on Firewall, Data Processing, Sleaze, Attack in that order.
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Caught me on my phone again, so I don't have my file handy.
Thought this was already in errata, but if not then this is another case of Attack rating being misused because it was written before that term was designated for edge purposes. The IC rating x2 is meant to represent their skill+attribute dice pool for making attacks, etc.
Nice, I award you 1 edge for outstanding perseverence. Its nice to have you around for clarifications.
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But whats the purpose of an attack Attribute of the host then?
Since it is not used to calculate Attack Rating and it is also not used for calculating damage done by Killer and Black IC it isn't really used for anything.
Only thing I found so far is that the Host's Attack attribute is used by Jammer IC while defending. (nevermind, attack attribute is used when defending against the Jammer's attack - not the other way around)
I do believe though that the AR og rating*2 is an error and should be errataed
Perhaps.
Or perhaps the whole Host Rating + 1, +2, +3, +4 is legacy copy pasta from SR5.
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But whats the purpose of an attack Attribute of the host then?
Since it is not used to calculate Attack Rating and it is also not used for calculating damage done by Killer and Black IC it isn't really used for anything.
Only thing I found so far is that the Host's Attack attribute is used by Jammer IC while defending.
I do believe though that the AR og rating*2 is an error and should be errataed
Perhaps.
Or perhaps the whole Host Rating + 1, +2, +3, +4 is legacy copy pasta from SR5.
As a follow up on my post from just a bit ago ... IC does not use its rating to determine Attack Rating ... that would draw from the host .. and to be honest I think damage too, but that I would have to double check the final version
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Can you add a little example?
Host 4 ,Black IC?
ASDF, Attack Rating of IC And Dicepool for attack?
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As a follow up on my post from just a bit ago ... IC does not use its rating to determine Attack Rating ... that would draw from the host .. and to be honest I think damage too, but that I would have to double check the final version
Rule wise Attack Rating and damage done etc currently seem to be based on Host Rating (and I kinda like it, easy to remember and resolve)
(but since it is not using the Host's Attack attribute it also mean that the Host's Attack attribute is not really used for anything at all... host's sleaze rating does not seem to be used for anything either, except perhaps making devices attached to the host harder to trace)
Can you add a little example?
Host 4 ,Black IC?
ASDF, Attack Rating of IC And Dicepool for attack?
Attack Rating: Host Rating x 2 = 8
Dice pool for attack: Host Rating x 2 = 8
Matrix Damage: Host Rating + Net Hits
Biofeedback Damage: Host Rating + Net Hits
Condition Monitor Boxes: Host Rating / 2 + 8 = 10
Initiative: Host's Data Processing x 2 + 3D6
Defense Rating: Host's Data Processing + Host's Firewall
Opposing Data Spike or Tarpit: Host's Data Processing + Host's Firewall
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As a follow up on my post from just a bit ago ... IC does not use its rating to determine Attack Rating ... that would draw from the host .. and to be honest I think damage too, but that I would have to double check the final version
Its rating Damage.
But maybe it should be attack Attribute/2?
Can you add a little example?
Host 4 ,Black IC?
ASDF, Attack Rating of IC And Dicepool for attack?
Attack Rating: Host Rating x 2 = 8
Dice pool for attack: Host Rating x 2 = 8
Matrix Damage: Host Rating + Net Hits
Biofeedback Damage: Host Rating + Net Hits
I believe it should be
Rating 4 host with ASDF of 6475
Black IC with ASDF of the same
AR 10 (RAW 8 )
DR12 (RAW 12?)
Attack dicepool 8 vs intuition + firewall
Dmg: 3 Matrix dmg + 3 biofeedback dmg. +1 on each pr net hit. Resisted by firewall and willpower respectively. (RAW dmg 4 on both).
The black IC had 8 in Matrix CM ( maybe or should it be 10 for 8+1/2 rating)
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I think, that what DigitalZombie writen is better.
ICs has power from Host, and Attack and Sleaze attributes of Host has sense, so standard cybercombat rules can be applied.
Thank you for a fruitful discussion. In my world it will bo houseruled.
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Yes, well... If we are talking house rules (but there is another thread for this already where I think house rules should be posted) then you basically have two options here I think;
- Skip the whole Host Rating +1, +2, +3, +4 mechanic and just house rule that all matrix attributes of a host is equal to host rating and then resolve everything according to regular cybercombat rules
- House rule that IC use Attack attribute of the host for calculating damage and use Attack and Sleaze attribute of the host for calculating Attack Rating according to regular cybercombat rules
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Yes, well... If we are talking house rules (but there is another thread for this already where I think house rules should be posted) then you basically have two options here I think;
- Skip the whole Host Rating +1, +2, +3, +4 mechanic and just house rule that all matrix attributes of a host is equal to host rating and then resolve everything according to regular cybercombat rules
- House rule that IC use Attack attribute of the host for calculating damage and use Attack and Sleaze attribute of the host for calculating Attack Rating according to regular cybercombat rules
Psst ... #2 is not a house rule and is how its supposed to work. Look for the change of wording in hopefully soon to be released errata. 😉
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Thanks for clarifying, Banshee. That just means I will house rule it; the host rating +1, +2, +3 thing just doesn't fit my idea of a streamlined system, to be honest. I posted my house rule suggestion in the house rule thread.
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Good news. Thank you.
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@Zerosum.
I read your houserule in the other thread, I found it easy, sleek and intuitive.
And I guess technically you didnt houserule IC, but more just hosts loosing the +1, +2 and +3.
What I really like about that rule is, if your game suddenly became more matrix focused, it would be easy to just introduce a host with rating x i everything, but x+2 in attack for instance
Personally I would still go with the various bonusses, as per upcoming errata. ( not that my games have been very matrix focused so far :/)
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There was a discussion here about what would the hosts attack attribute be used for.
I am thinking that if the host is attended by a security spider, could the spider have besides IC also the possibility to use regular matrix actions against the intruder ?
The spider sits behind the host, not behind a deck, so the spider can harness the raw power of the host to directly combat intruders instead of passively watching while being hacked ?
Is that too crazy ?
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There was a discussion here about what would the hosts attack attribute be used for.
I am thinking that if the host is attended by a security spider, could the spider have besides IC also the possibility to use regular matrix actions against the intruder ?
The spider sits behind the host, not behind a deck, so the spider can harness the raw power of the host to directly combat intruders instead of passively watching while being hacked ?
Is that too crazy ?
You are correct, a spider could be using a deck or just using the host