Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Moonrunner on <11-06-19/1638:35>
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Ok, this is has now BEYOND the realm of the obscene and ridiculous. This book as been out since last GenCon and still to this day we haven't received official clarifications and rulings for all the broken, omitted or conflicting things in the book. This is unacceptable. Are we EVER getting these?
My 6e group has stopped playing and started Call of Cthulhu instead until we can figure out what is going to happen with 6e but are considering playing a whole different cyberpunk RPG now like the Android setting or maybe the new Cyberpunk.
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I know we're all used to immediate updates and such, but print still takes time. It takes time to gather the issues, triage the importance of the issues, write up answers/solutions, and get it ready for publication (not to mention editing the main product with the updates). Three months is NOT extreme at all.
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Fastjack's correct.
Also I gather from your comment moonrunner that you don't really know much about Catalyst, this is how they operate.
I was on the 5e errata team and had the "joy" of having my work ignored and left unreviewed by the line editor who from what i could see could care less about errata or "getting things right" or anything approaching a healthy relationship with customers.
ymmv, i hope it does!
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The primary broken things were covered by the hotfix errata. Normal errata take more time, especially if they want to let an Editor go through them. I'd like info on the progress, but I don't consider it really slow just yet.
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I continue to be confused as to how people get this idea in their head that any table-top RPG ever has released without significant errors or unclear portions of text in important parts of the game, or been successfully an completely patched in 3 months, and then get "I'm gonna quit the whole dang game!" levels of upset about a game that - like all the others ever - doesn't hit that mark.
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I continue to be confused as to how people get this idea in their head that any table-top RPG ever has released without significant errors or unclear portions of text in important parts of the game, or been successfully an completely patched in 3 months, and then get "I'm gonna quit the whole dang game!" levels of upset about a game that - like all the others ever - doesn't hit that mark.
Pathfinder 2.0 and D&D 5E would like to have a chat with this comment.
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6E is very good imo but there are some flaws that make me question the quality of the playtesting. I don't mean to offend anyone but I find it quite odd that some of the issues with the game actually made it in. The editing has a lot of problems, I don't see why the editor doesn't get fired. He is even listed as "lead troubleshooter" instead of editor, just because his reputation is so bad. Back when Jason Hardy did a lot of the editing the books had far less problems, that was back in 4E. Ever since 5E the editing has been awful. I find 6E very playable but some things can be tough to find, like the rules for how many damage boxes a vehicle gets being tucked away in a section titled shooting from a vehicle. Other times the rules for a certain mechanic are in a few different places in the book and you need to page-flip a lot.
As for errata, the hotfix is a good start and I'm sure the next batch will help a ton. I think its normal for books to have issues but Shadowrun tends to have a lot of them, especially very serious ones that make it hard for new players to play properly, while vets may be able to house rule. Even then, house rules feel bad to me. Pathfinder 2E may have more employees but the book is very well written and almost everything is easily understandable and playable right out of the gate. It has errata but the bulk of it is small stuff. You can only use CGL having a small team as an excuse so much, people want higher quality.
The book is beautiful, the writing is excellent, the artwork is okay but has some awesome stuff too. Fantastic cover, decently well-organized book (most things are easy to find), the game overall plays very well, I'm really happy with it and having a blast. But others are not as tolerant and competition is popping up on a seemingly monthly basis. I'd love to be able to buy the books and not feel like I'll need to buy them again later just for them to work properly with errata.
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The primary broken things were covered by the hotfix errata.
For those of us who just got the core book recently, and haven't had the Willpower to sift through it yet, where might the hotfix errata be found? Thanks.
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I continue to be confused as to how people get this idea in their head that any table-top RPG ever has released without significant errors or unclear portions of text in important parts of the game, or been successfully an completely patched in 3 months, and then get "I'm gonna quit the whole dang game!" levels of upset about a game that - like all the others ever - doesn't hit that mark.
Pathfinder 2.0 and D&D 5E would like to have a chat with this comment.
I do have to totally agree with you on this, especially since Paizo just released a playtest for the Advanced Players Guide for 2E detailing the Investigator, Oracle, Swashbuckler, and (my personal favorite) Witch classes. The changes for Witch especially made me giddy. Yes, you can now imagine a curmudgeonly old decker giddy. Your welcome.
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I continue to be confused as to how people get this idea in their head that any table-top RPG ever has released without significant errors or unclear portions of text in important parts of the game, or been successfully an completely patched in 3 months, and then get "I'm gonna quit the whole dang game!" levels of upset about a game that - like all the others ever - doesn't hit that mark.
Pathfinder 2.0 and D&D 5E would like to have a chat with this comment.
Actually D&D 5e had several flaws, some of which have never really been addressed. They don't really need to be fixed because D&D 5e was designed with a very loose ruleset where the DM has a lot of judgment calls. Something which SR 6 has been criticized for.
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And Pathfinder 2.0 just released a hot fix errta the other day with more on the way.
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Pathfinder 2E is a much larger book and after reading the majority of it I had almost no confusion on any of the rules. There were some small things but nothing serious. 6E even has entries for Agents in the gear section and they don't even exist. That's absolutely terrible.
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Pathfinder 2.0 and D&D 5E would like to have a chat with this comment.
As others have already pointed out, neither of those games came out without anything fix-worthy, and neither patched up everything fix-worthy about them in 3 months.
What is different about them is kind of simple though: the flaws that are present just so happen not to be in areas that a particular reader gets caught on. The same applies for SR6 though, just for different people. A number of the things people have brought up claims of being entirely non-functional in SR6 I didn't notice on my own read-through because they are things that have historically not come up in my Shadowrun play so I'm not "missing" anything if they don't function (like agents, or how shotguns don't seem up-to-snuff), or I felt I understood upon reading even though the text was unclear to people with complaints.
And I know for sure I have a higher threshold of tolerance for being asked to fill in the blanks and smooth out the rough edges as a GM than other folks... but that's to be expected when you spend the entire product life of a game you hate the very core of running it because it's what your buddies want to play the most (not Shadowrun, to be clear - this game I run because I love it).
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D&D 5e debates on rules frequently refer to the "Word of God" on Twitter that has to settle their debates.
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I think the main difference in the issues with SR to other games is that the book is riddled with errors, more than is usual for a game's core book. On top of that many of the mechanics in 6e are familiar to those of use who played 5e but are simultaneously a vast departure from that territory. To some these are welcome changes, to others they are badwrongterrible and must be fixed. In the meantime maybe we should just assume no one will fix anything. Cuz they may not fix that one thing you hate and then what will you do?
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I continue to be confused as to how people get this idea in their head that any table-top RPG ever has released without significant errors or unclear portions of text in important parts of the game, or been successfully an completely patched in 3 months, and then get "I'm gonna quit the whole dang game!" levels of upset about a game that - like all the others ever - doesn't hit that mark.
The state of completion for Shadowrun 6e is quite abnormal for an RPG of any standard. I've been playing these games since 1983 and this quite possibly the most unfinished and mind bogglingly bad release I've ever seen.
We also do not have the luxury of waiting months to fix this game. The game is quickly falling off the radars of gamers due to its shoddy condition. Everyone I talk to outside this forum laughs at the mere mention of Shadowrun 6e. People are jumping ship to more polished alternatives like Cyberpunk, Interface Zero, Android, Carbon 2185, etc. If we wait much longer to get this fixed then this edition will never recover. This is way worse than what the slow/limited response has merited thus far.
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Man, makes you wonder what rep it would have if people weren't constantly exaggerating about its flaws and going on a crazy bashing campaign, up to and including massive NDA violations and piracy encouragement (looking at you, Reddit mods violating your own anti-piracy rule), while lying about the quality of SR5 which they all hated before SR6 came out, all because they're upset the new edition didn't give them exactly what they wanted. /s
Seriously though, most archetypes are perfectly playable and there's only a few balance problems, yet people insist everything is the end of the world. I can run a campaign just fine, just needing clarifications while making temporary decisions for now. I don't see why people insist SR6 is broken beyond repair.
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I think 'beyond repair' comes from the fact that there's not much "fixing" you can do. The margin for what can be fiddled is very small, as far as I have found when trying. You end up in "rewrite required" territory very quickly when you start trying to adjust things. "Fix" A, and B breaks. The solution Michael has of just making judgement calls is really the only way one can approach the product on its own.
Regarding fixes we might get from on high, given the volume of things stated as moving to the printers, and that this effort is on the same shoulders as the finalization of errata, my suspicion is that things which generate revenue will take priority over wrapping up the errata. Previous history also makes people rightly suspect.
Last thought from me is that it's also not really fair to SR to compare it to any other 'big name' (ie popular) product. The production processes and scale are very different, and this leaves the final product in a different league. I would agree the problems are at a higher rate and deeper nature than "standard" problem levels are, but I wouldn't call this product "standard" at this point. It is going to fail most any comparison test you put it to, really. The only fair comparison you can really make is to prior editions. Things like, "is it better now", "do you like X", "would you play it" are all valid. Comparing sales numbers, error rates, rules issues, fan reactions, community engagement from management, responsiveness of customer service, marketing strategy...this just isn't that shop, and it won't be for the foreseeable future. SR6 and CGL are going to lose those comparisons almost every time. Don't waste your time.
It's disappointing to me too, but I can't change that. "Management" has stated they don't want to act on the negative feedback since it 'doesn't represent the player base', apparently. Folks who want changes will just have to wait and see if anything trickles into the supplements that addresses any of the issues. My guess is you'll see it there before any errata addresses it. I will happily eat those words if I am proven wrong.
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Man, makes you wonder what rep it would have if people weren't constantly exaggerating about its flaws and going on a crazy bashing campaign, up to and including massive NDA violations and piracy encouragement (looking at you, Reddit mods violating your own anti-piracy rule), while lying about the quality of SR5 which they all hated before SR6 came out, all because they're upset the new edition didn't give them exactly what they wanted. /s
Seriously though, most archetypes are perfectly playable and there's only a few balance problems, yet people insist everything is the end of the world. I can run a campaign just fine, just needing clarifications while making temporary decisions for now. I don't see why people insist SR6 is broken beyond repair.
I'm not sure laying this on reddits feet is logical or beneficial. Many people who purchased the game and have left reviews think the same way. The company hasn't really been forthright or willing to engage. There is no marketing to speak of. There isn't even an accurate website.
To put it in your own words, it makes you wonder what rep it would have if it was a more quality product, the company marketed it, and built its hype.
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I think 'beyond repair' comes from the fact that there's not much "fixing" you can do. The margin for what can be fiddled is very small, as far as I have found when trying. You end up in "rewrite required" territory very quickly when you start trying to adjust things. "Fix" A, and B breaks. The solution Michael has of just making judgement calls is really the only way one can approach the product on its own.
Regarding fixes we might get from on high, given the volume of things stated as moving to the printers, and that this effort is on the same shoulders as the finalization of errata, my suspicion is that things which generate revenue will take priority over wrapping up the errata. Previous history also makes people rightly suspect.
Last thought from me is that it's also not really fair to SR to compare it to any other 'big name' (ie popular) product. The production processes and scale are very different, and this leaves the final product in a different league. I would agree the problems are at a higher rate and deeper nature than "standard" problem levels are, but I wouldn't call this product "standard" at this point. It is going to fail most any comparison test you put it to, really. The only fair comparison you can really make is to prior editions. Things like, "is it better now", "do you like X", "would you play it" are all valid. Comparing sales numbers, error rates, rules issues, fan reactions, community engagement from management, responsiveness of customer service, marketing strategy...this just isn't that shop, and it won't be for the foreseeable future. SR6 and CGL are going to lose those comparisons almost every time. Don't waste your time.
It's disappointing to me too, but I can't change that. "Management" has stated they don't want to act on the negative feedback since it 'doesn't represent the player base', apparently. Folks who want changes will just have to wait and see if anything trickles into the supplements that addresses any of the issues. My guess is you'll see it there before any errata addresses it. I will happily eat those words if I am proven wrong.
It wouldn't be fair to compare 6E with the big names on quality if it wasn't also for the fact that very many 1 and 2 man publishing outfits are putting out tight and high quality games on the indie side. Some of those very indie games are even being sold at Target now.
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I think 'beyond repair' comes from the fact that there's not much "fixing" you can do. The margin for what can be fiddled is very small, as far as I have found when trying. You end up in "rewrite required" territory very quickly when you start trying to adjust things. "Fix" A, and B breaks. The solution Michael has of just making judgement calls is really the only way one can approach the product on its own.
I have no intention of playing 6E. I don't even like the idea of putting the label of Shadowrun on anything from the last decade, to be honest. Even so, I have followed fairly closely what people have been complaining about, and I can't immediately think of a single thing that, to me, seems broken beyond a minor adjustment or some common sense GM discretion. There are pages and pages of arguments on this forum about various things being "broken", but they mostly just boil down to "what if I'm an abusive power-gaming player in a group that doesn't do that but the RAW allow it what then huh huh huh?"
There are many--many--things about 6E that I do not like. Disliking how something is designed to work is different from that thing not working.
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The state of completion for Shadowrun 6e is quite abnormal for an RPG of any standard. I've been playing these games since 1983 and this quite possibly the most unfinished and mind bogglingly bad release I've ever seen.
I've seen worse. Hell, I've seen worse in the Shadowrun line even (or perhaps it's just inverted nostalgia googles causing an overly-harsh view of the things I had to self-patch in SR2 and SR3). I've also seen worse that no one even complained about.
We also do not have the luxury of waiting months to fix this game. The game is quickly falling off the radars of gamers due to its shoddy condition.
If you think Shadowrun really had much presence on the radar of the general gaming population at any point in time more so than now, I'd say you're kind of out of touch with reality - or at the very least, in some kind of different cosmos from that in which I've operated all these years finding that around 90% of the people I've ever met that even know what Shadowrun is are because I've introduced them to it.
And I think something is actually going right in regards to the public perception of the game since during the whole run of SR5 I had to special order any and every book I wanted and constantly had trouble with my FLGS getting them on for me, but now they've got shelf space dedicated to SR6 and even order-in special editions and accessories so that one of the players in my group could incidentally drop in and buy 2 sets of dice & edge tokens and a copy of the core book on a whim.
Plus, outside of a small handful of gamers I've only seen the likes of online, table-top players tend to be very patient people. They can wait for a new product, or for errata to patch up something they don't want to use as-is, playing with other stuff in the mean time - because there is always more to play than there is time to play it.
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Man, makes you wonder what rep it would have if people weren't constantly exaggerating about its flaws
”The messengers will continue to be shot until the bad word-of-mouth improves.”
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because there is always more to play than there is time to play it.
Story of my Steam Library.
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the core issue with 6e is the busted/ not working edge mechanic, there's no papering over that with errata.
if 6e was not so shoddy it wouldn't matter how many people complained about it online because once folks looked at the game/ tried it they would love it.
however, as we all know, that's not the case.
add on Catalyst's horrific track record of, well everything, and folks are not going to give them the benefit of the doubt anymore.
the tl:dr here is that catalyst has burned their customers one too many times and 6e's shoddiness is not appealing to people.
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Man, makes you wonder what rep it would have if people weren't constantly exaggerating about its flaws and going on a crazy bashing campaign
It's actually called an opinion, and just like yours is valid, so is theirs. You see a perfectly playable game with few balance problems, and they see what they see - I won't put words in anyone else's mouth, but in my case a playable but nonsensical and kind of flat edition with a wholly unacceptable level of editing errors (and yes, SR5 was the same editing wise - that is why I expect improvement).
I don't have the slightest idea what the edition's rep is in general, but I am confident that whatever it is reflects the quality of the product and not just what people say. Most people can read, and by reading you can make up your own mind about whether you like what you read or not.
I'm not sure laying this on reddits feet is logical or beneficial. Many people who purchased the game and have left reviews think the same way. The company hasn't really been forthright or willing to engage. There is no marketing to speak of. There isn't even an accurate website.
To put it in your own words, it makes you wonder what rep it would have if it was a more quality product, the company marketed it, and built its hype.
”The messengers will continue to be shot until the bad word-of-mouth improves.”
if 6e was not so shoddy it wouldn't matter how many people complained about it online because once folks looked at the game/ tried it they would love it.
the tl:dr here is that catalyst has burned their customers one too many times and 6e's shoddiness is not appealing to people.
Preach.
Bottom line, for every one Michael, there are substantially more Lormyrs, Stuh42ls, Penllawens, and Adzlings. Thanking Christ for small favors aside, none of our comments on either side matter in the grand scale of things. The product speaks for itself, and people will evaluate if they like or it don't for themselves.
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Man, makes you wonder what rep it would have if people weren't constantly exaggerating about its flaws and going on a crazy bashing campaign, up to and including massive NDA violations and piracy encouragement (looking at you, Reddit mods violating your own anti-piracy rule), while lying about the quality of SR5 which they all hated before SR6 came out, all because they're upset the new edition didn't give them exactly what they wanted. /s
Blame bad press all you want, but do you know what people are saying about 6e on websites that aren't reddit? Nothing. Other than the occasional "don't play 6e, it's a dumpster fire" when someone asks what edition to play, it's as if it never even existed. That's awfully indicative of what people really think about it, don't you think?
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The state of completion for Shadowrun 6e is quite abnormal for an RPG of any standard. I've been playing these games since 1983 and this quite possibly the most unfinished and mind bogglingly bad release I've ever seen.
Incidentally, if you do have 1st edition errata, please let me know- the closest I've found were a few scanned copies of the KAGE magazine, and the rules in that were either extra options or clarifications (And I think only the first 2-3 issues came out before 2nd edition...) Either way, the hunt continues!
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Blame bad press all you want, but do you know what people are saying about 6e on websites that aren't reddit? Nothing. Other than the occasional "don't play 6e, it's a dumpster fire" when someone asks what edition to play, it's as if it never even existed. That's awfully indicative of what people really think about it, don't you think?
Did you know that even now, when it seems like everyone and their grandma is on the internet numerous hours every day, the majority of gamers don't engage in any kind of discussion about the games they like online?
I'm not saying SR6 is doing great, mind you, because I don't actually know that. I'm just pointing out that even if the entirety of people talking about SR6 all agreed that it is "a dumpster fire" that wouldn't necessarily be the majority opinion.
What I do know is that SR6 works well enough that I don't mind self-patching it for use at my table, my group's having fun playing it, and our FLGS has been moving SR6 products in significant enough numbers to keep space dedicated to the game on their shelves.
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What I do know is that SR6 works well enough that I don't mind self-patching it for use at my table, my group's having fun playing it, and our FLGS has been moving SR6 products in significant enough numbers to keep space dedicated to the game on their shelves.
Casuals infatuated by something shiny and new. They'll play a few games before getting bored of it and when they go back to their D&D campaign those products will just sit on a bookshelf and collect dust.
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Frag, Shadowrun is finally actually available in the Netherlands. Shops literally cannot order SR5, but now I can order through the FLGS (hello No Future and Streetpedia!) and they actually have Book, Box, Boardgame on the shelves.
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Frag, Shadowrun is finally actually available in the Netherlands. Shops literally cannot order SR5, but now I can order through the FLGS (hello No Future and Streetpedia!) and they actually have Book, Box, Boardgame on the shelves.
Michael, is this in Dutch? Or in English? I'm curious. I'm guessing its the English version, as a translation would be a major undertaking.
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In English. With Fifth and Fourth, the Dutch CGL distributor basically refused to touch Shadowrun so no way to order unless from other countries and at the bottom of the priority list.
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What I do know is that SR6 works well enough that I don't mind self-patching it for use at my table, my group's having fun playing it, and our FLGS has been moving SR6 products in significant enough numbers to keep space dedicated to the game on their shelves.
Casuals infatuated by something shiny and new. They'll play a few games before getting bored of it and when they go back to their D&D campaign those products will just sit on a bookshelf and collect dust.
...who hurt you?
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Don't get your knickers in a knot, I'm just calling it as I see it. As you said, the majority of gamers don't engage in any kind of discussion about the games they like online. Those who do would be more heavily invested/interested their games, so if the majority of online talk about 6e is either "don't play it, it's a dumpster fire", "thank you for coming to my 3 hour TEDtalk on why it's a dumpster fire" or deafening silence, I can only conclude that it's only the casuals who actually like and purchase 6e products, not people who liked Shadowrun for what it was before. Of course, increasing Shadowrun's casual appeal was one of CGL's design goals for 6e, and there's nothing wrong with appealing to casuals so long as you don't commit that cardinal sin of.....well, you know. Alienating your core audience.
Need I remind everyone that Emerald Grid imploded after 6e came out? As expected from a reddit community, most of the GMs were talentless hacks who couldn't design their own runs if their lives depended on it and had to rely on SRMs and other prewritten modules. With no more new 5e modules to come, the community was doomed to die of stagnation unless it converted everything to 6e. So did the GMs and players, some of whom had played characters long enough to rack up over a thousand Karma, convert to 6e? No. One of the largest Shadowrun communities, which arguably contained some of the most dedicated players, decided that playing 6e was worse than not having a Shadowrun game at all.
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Don't project your knotted knickers upon me, kind fellow.
Also don't make such massive assumptions about who are talking to and/or about. I am the "core audience" for Shadowrun, as I've been into this game longer than Catalyst has.
And lastly, calling other people "casuals" doesn't make you seem more invested in the hobby than anyone else or lend any weight at all to your opinions, it just makes you look like an elitist who's having difficulty making an argument that stands on its own so they lean on "my opinion is inherently more valuable than someone else's because reasons"
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Also don't make such massive assumptions about who are talking to and/or about. I am the "core audience" for Shadowrun, as I've been into this game longer than Catalyst has.
Unverifiable, and if true still does not outweigh the mass rejection of 6e seen in various online communities. Of course I can't verify anything about myself either, so this is a moot avenue of discussion.
And lastly, calling other people "casuals" doesn't make you seem more invested in the hobby than anyone else or lend any weight at all to your opinions, it just makes you look like an elitist who's having difficulty making an argument that stands on its own so they lean on "my opinion is inherently more valuable than someone else's because reasons"
An "elitist" who says "there's nothing wrong with appealing to casuals"? I suppose I'm "entitled" for adding that "don't alienate your core audience" clause.
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Don't get your knickers in a knot, I'm just calling it as I see it. As you said, the majority of gamers don't engage in any kind of discussion about the games they like online. Those who do would be more heavily invested/interested their games, so if the majority of online talk about 6e is either "don't play it, it's a dumpster fire", "thank you for coming to my 3 hour TEDtalk on why it's a dumpster fire" or deafening silence, I can only conclude that it's only the casuals who actually like and purchase 6e products, not people who liked Shadowrun for what it was before. Of course, increasing Shadowrun's casual appeal was one of CGL's design goals for 6e, and there's nothing wrong with appealing to casuals so long as you don't commit that cardinal sin of.....well, you know. Alienating your core audience.
Need I remind everyone that Emerald Grid imploded after 6e came out? As expected from a reddit community, most of the GMs were talentless hacks who couldn't design their own runs if their lives depended on it and had to rely on SRMs and other prewritten modules. With no more new 5e modules to come, the community was doomed to die of stagnation unless it converted everything to 6e. So did the GMs and players, some of whom had played characters long enough to rack up over a thousand Karma, convert to 6e? No. One of the largest Shadowrun communities, which arguably contained some of the most dedicated players, decided that playing 6e was worse than not having a Shadowrun game at all.
CITATION NEEDED
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I've been playing Shadowrun since 1e and abhor the dumpster fire that is 6e.
So does every Shadowrun player I have talked with except a very few that i know from this forum, and I can count those folks on one hand.
So yes, I would agree with Ghost Rigger that 6e alienated a huge subset of Shadowrun's core audience.
The sales figures on Drive Thru bear this out.
As does the total lack of conversion to 6e for the living communities (not just emerald grid).
Face it, excepting a tiny minority 6e is not what the existing Shadowrun players wanted nor care for.
Time will tell if a groundswell of noobs are brought into the game due to the "simplification".
So far it certainly seems to not be so.
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Also don't make such massive assumptions about who are talking to and/or about. I am the "core audience" for Shadowrun, as I've been into this game longer than Catalyst has.
Unverifiable, and if true still does not outweigh the mass rejection of 6e seen in various online communities. Of course I can't verify anything about myself either, so this is a moot avenue of discussion.
And lastly, calling other people "casuals" doesn't make you seem more invested in the hobby than anyone else or lend any weight at all to your opinions, it just makes you look like an elitist who's having difficulty making an argument that stands on its own so they lean on "my opinion is inherently more valuable than someone else's because reasons"
An "elitist" who says "there's nothing wrong with appealing to casuals"? I suppose I'm "entitled" for adding that "don't alienate your core audience" clause.
You can't say, "casuals can have their fun but the true fans must be appeased," and not sound like an elitist, bub.
You're even questioning whether Noble Drake is really a longtime shadowrun consumer. It's like a caricature. The only way to be more elitist would be to tell people they must prove their fan cred or they can't buy SR products.
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I've been playing Shadowrun since 1e and abhor the dumpster fire that is 6e.
So does every Shadowrun player I have talked with except a very few that i know from this forum, and I can count those folks on one hand.
So yes, I would agree with Ghost Rigger that 6e alienated a huge subset of Shadowrun's core audience.
The sales figures on Drive Thru bear this out.
As does the total lack of conversion to 6e for the living communities (not just emerald grid).
Face it, excepting a tiny minority 6e is not what the existing Shadowrun players wanted nor care for.
Time will tell if a groundswell of noobs are brought into the game due to the "simplification".
So far it certainly seems to not be so.
Still conjecture. I think we're all happy to accept hearsay, but this is not very compelling.
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The sales figures on drive thru are not conjecture or hearsay.
Nice try though.
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The sales figures on drive thru are not conjecture or hearsay.
A tiny sample of data leads to conjecture...
Nice try though.
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Time to go to respective corners and take a break before someone says something that requires more attention from the mods.
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I run and play on Roll20.net. I ran a few Anarchy games and an SR5. Roll20 has a significant member base, and, as of this post, no one has bothered to create an in-game SR6 character sheet. There are sheets for SR2, SR5, and Anarchy. This tells me that no one is playing 6 on Roll20. That's not a good sign for a brand new edition, of a highly popular IP, that's been out for several months.
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This tells me that no one is playing 6 on Roll20.
There are too many variables that may factor into whether people are or aren't playing SR6 on Roll20 to draw the conclusion that they aren't from the absence of an SR6 sheet.
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This tells me that no one is playing 6 on Roll20.
There are too many variables that may factor into whether people are or aren't playing SR6 on Roll20 to draw the conclusion that they aren't from the absence of an SR6 sheet.
To paraphrase my logic classes: From nothing you can prove everything.
(Since A->B holds if A is false, having an always-false statement for A allows you to 'prove' any B. So if we pick for A 'SR6 satisfaction of SR5-worshippers', knowing they will never be satisfied (Hi Hamilton!), B can be whatever they want it to be.)
As for Roll20, since only one SR6 adventure is available, I'm not surprised many are just using SR5 tools with tweaks. Will be different when the SRMs start hitting.
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To paraphrase my logic classes: From nothing you can prove everything.
Surely, you must have a bounty of evidence that people are actually converting to 6e.
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To paraphrase my logic classes: From nothing you can prove everything.
Surely, you must have a bounty of evidence that people are actually converting to 6e.
He never claimed they were. But you bring up another great false argument: the strawman.
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I've had a great many valuable conversations on this forum since I joined, had all kinds of questions answered, and been quite pleased with the quick rules explanations I've had.
But if you ever wanted to know why a newbie like myself would maybe steer clear of this forum as an unpleasant place, the last two pages of this thread are one reason. Its not that it is negative (this is an RPG forum on the internet, things are going to be negative), its that it is entirely unproductive. It answers no questions, will never achieve any synthesis, and is making my eyeballs hurt. It certainly no longer has anything to do with the original question posed in the subject line and first post.
Time for me to tune out, I guess.
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Time for me to tune out, I guess.
I hear you. IDK how much of it is this forum, and not just the online fanbase. The only shadowrun places I've seen online that don't have some level of hostility/vitriol are living communities (Since they tend to be smaller, and are on a "whitelist" basis for new members), and tumblr. (Since there's only about five SR players on tumblr that regularly talk about SR...)
I don't know how much there is that the mods can do in this case to change things like that. I think this forum is more productive than other places, but there always seems to be something to argue about. I like arguing, too, but not all the time.
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Mods please delete if this is crossing a forum rule of guideline I am not trying to cause trouble.
Don't know if this would work out for you all, but the World of Darkness forum on OPP is similar in its vitriol towards the new edition of Masquerade. We started a Community on Discord that was dedicated to fans of the new edition and things have been much better vitriol wise for those of us who love the new edition.
As a fan of this edition, maybe we just do the same and create a space that has less vitriol if you feel that is needed. I am just coming back to the forums so I do not know the level of hate that is out there yet, though I have seen some claims online.
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well, if it matters to anyone, I am running a 6e game using roll20. basically just maps that I project onto my table for a F2F game, but its still roll20, and its still 6e.
shrug.
Cheers,
J.
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Project on to your table, that sounds interesting, what type of projector are you using.
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I picked up a cheap $100 LED projector. its not too bright, but good enough to reflect off of a background. I temporarily suspend the projector about 3.5-4' off of the table to give it enough distance to allow my "virtual desktop" to be poster sized.
I run a couple laptops. one is a GM laptop, where I have my Roll20 views including no fog of war etc. I have a player laptop that basically mirrors the screen to the projector. this makes it super easy for me to mouse around and show google maps of Seattle, or images of a NPC, etc.
I use google maps in 3d mode for some of the legwork stuff, as well as getting to and from the run and various other parts of the city. flip to a roll 20 map that I've setup ahead of time for the actual location.
seems to work pretty well (its only been 1 session :) ). have been using nearly this exact setup for several years now for a D&D game. only addition here is I've also included an upright monitor for other visual props.
Cheers,
J.
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Jman,
Could I get some pics of your setup in action? Sounds interesting.
Regards,
Ludwig
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Jman,
Could I get some pics of your setup in action? Sounds interesting.
Regards,
Ludwig
I'm not JMan, but I am a long time player in his games and just happen to have a picture already online of what it looked like when we were playing Twlight 2000 using his setup on my RPGGeek gallery...
https://rpggeek.com/image/3752793/skalchemist
It really is a sweet setup. He has this wooden frame built that holds the projector that he places between the two lamps over his dining room table. The lamps support the frame, pointing the projector down at the table. I think the only downside is that when he and I went in together to get the projector we should have spent an extra $50 each to get one with a brighter lamp, but that would have been a larger box and might not have been able to be supported by the lamps.
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Jman,
Could I get some pics of your setup in action? Sounds interesting.
Regards,
Ludwig
I'm not JMan, but I am a long time player in his games and just happen to have a picture already online of what it looked like when we were playing Twlight 2000 using his setup on my RPGGeek gallery...
https://rpggeek.com/image/3752793/skalchemist
Awesome! I love seeing other people's setups - very cool @JMan @skalchemist
Someday I will clean up my basement....someday.... ;)
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Stuff like that always makes me wish I could play IRL games... I always have to stick to Roll20 and online groups. Where I live, it'd be hard enough finding enough people to play D&D, nevermind Shadowrun. This is partially my fault, though, my schedule is usually the biggest obstacle with groups XD
I think I have a tub of DnD tiles that I haven't touched since college. And every time I go to the bookstore, I still want to buy more. It's cool what you can do with online or projector maps- I like re-purposing RPGmaker maps- but the tactile part of gaming is nice. ;D
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Yeah. On the one hand, Roll20 does a lot of the math for you, and you're potentially playing a cyberpunk RPG online with people in different countries;
on the other, you can share each others' sourcebooks in person, take a snack break together (with the same snacks!) and hang out before/after.
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Thread is locked since Spammers are the only ones posting in it.