Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: GLD on <11-06-19/2301:12>
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Just got the Sixth Edition today and I'm going over the rules. This has been something I've been trying to figure out for a while now and I cannot possibly reconcile rules as written with the logic of game design and any form of reality. Am I to understand that strength plays no role in the application of damage with melee weapons? It doesn't determine dice pool for melee attacks, it doesn't increase DV, it does basically nothing as far as a standard melee attack goes. That a Troll with 9 Strength and an Elf with 2 will do the same damage when smashing an enemy with an axe, assuming they have the same close combat skill rating?
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You are correct. The only effect Strength has on mêlée combat as written is for Unarmed damage...
My group house ruled both Athletics and Close Combat to be Strength-based skills. It’s been working quite well for us, but YMMV.
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I don't mind the spirit of the change but in practice, there are weird issues like unarmed attacks from trolls with high strength dealing more damage than a combat axe. I play a razorgirl with hand razors and she deals more damage with her fists than the razors, she has 6 strength. You can expect lots of house rules and I'm sure the combat book, Firing Squad, will have some optional rules to help.
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Well thanks for the confirmation. It just feels like Strength is practically a dump stat now as it influences very little. Even at 6 Str, you get just as much effect with a pair of cheap knucks. What else besides carrying capacity and grappling? The idea of changing the attribute for Close Combat to Strength would go a long way in mitigating some of the inherent weirdness of it all. Or doing a DnD style, use whichever is higher between Strength or Agility.
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Strength is also used in climbing, calculating unarmed attack rating, pushing, pulling, breaking out of grapples, preventing someone from disarming you, defending against the decrease attribute spell, and perhaps a couple more things. I have been considering awarding edge in melee situations in which one person/creature has a significant strength advantage. I like that because close combat lacks ways of gaining edge due to lower attack ratings. Any thoughts on that?
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Good one, I like that. You're right that compared to Rigging and gunning (and facing), many other approaches tend to lack in Edge-methods. I don't mind as much for mages, since magic is still really awesome, but with close combat it would be nice to have a few extra ways.
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Strength is also used in climbing, calculating unarmed attack rating, pushing, pulling, breaking out of grapples, preventing someone from disarming you, defending against the decrease attribute spell, and perhaps a couple more things. I have been considering awarding edge in melee situations in which one person/creature has a significant strength advantage. I like that because close combat lacks ways of gaining edge due to lower attack ratings. Any thoughts on that?
I was going to say that "Preventing from the decrease Attribute spell" is a bit redundant under the assumption that Strength might be a dumbstat, since it only protects you from decreasing itself. Then I realized that you still collapse when a mundane Attribute reaches zero (Wow, I just noticed that Decrease Attribute is quite a tool against dumbstatters in general... :P). You can also add Strength requirements for Machine Guns to that list.
So yeah, the problem isn´t really that Strength is a "Dumptstat" (it isn´t), it´s the fact that Strength scales with unarmed combat for both AR and Damage Calculation while having no impact on melee weapons at all. A Strength Score of 5 is already enough to compete with most melee weapons, often making them obsolete alltogether. And that´s without bringing stuff like Dermal Deposits and Bone Augmentations into the mix. And bear in mind that melee weapons have first to be readied (and hidden and public) while fists are always available.
I´m not sure if it´s going to cut it, but your suggestion is surely better than leaving Strength completely out of the mix for armed combat. If you want to go the "edgy" route: Why not do the most obvious thing and add Strength to the baseline AR of the Weapon? Most Melee Weapons have Attack ratings that are so low that one can only wonder if these were originally supposed to have Strength added to it and then someone in editing convieniently deleted a sentence or two...
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Strength should absolutely add to melee weapon attack rating and I plan to house rule it as such. I have a razorgirl with handrazors and she is deadly, but I'm hard capped at 6 attack rating some guy with 3 body and no armor can stop me from gaining edge.
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a few uses of strength are not mentioned yet in this thread ... not really what i consider a true dump stat (but far from perfect :D ):
- You need 5 strength for heavy machine guns. (3 str for light machine guns) That one rule is on CRB 6th p.257 .
- Bows use strength for their damage since you can only use a bow with rating equal to your str.
- Grenades use unarmed Attack Rating (and thats Strength + Reaction)
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Strength should absolutely add to melee weapon attack rating and I plan to house rule it as such. I have a razorgirl with handrazors and she is deadly, but I'm hard capped at 6 attack rating some guy with 3 body and no armor can stop me from gaining edge.
You might want to try out my current houserule: If the the Strength of the Character is higher than the base damage code of the melee weapon, add the difference to the AR and half of the difference (round up) to the Damage Code.
Scales pretty well, even for Troll brutes with larger weapons. The damage and AR values aren´t going totally through the roof, and you can be (almost) sure that a weapon will do more damage than your fists alone, unless you use Bone Augmentations. Of course, the Monowhip is exempt from that rule ;)
a few uses of strength are not mentioned yet in this thread ... not really what i consider a true dump stat (but far from perfect :D ):
It´s a dumb stat, but not a dumpstat ;D
Strengthless melee weapons and the resulting imbalance between armed and unarmed combat is just so extremely disagreeable for most players that it overshadows all the remaining uses of the attribute.
Besides that, the only grievance I have is the fact that Sprinting uses Agility now (And the changes to Sprinting are quite stinky anyways. Why changing it from +2 to +1 Meter per Net Hit? That only devaluates the actual skill check that´s used for that action).
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Interesting idea, Fintersang. I'll consider it :) Thanks.
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Strength is also used in climbing, calculating unarmed attack rating, pushing, pulling, breaking out of grapples, preventing someone from disarming you, defending against the decrease attribute spell, and perhaps a couple more things.
Sure. It’s not nothing, but it’s pretty thin. Stack all that up against, say, the many uses for Agility and it starts to look like the least important attribute in the game.
Consider an armed melee combat build with Strength 1, Charisma 1, and a point left to spend (they suck because they didn’t pick A for Attributes). Should they put that point into Strength or into Charisma? Bearing in mind every runner has to pass a basic Con or Etiquette check from time to time? And adding the point to Strength does only the stuff you have listed. I’d have the Charisma, personally.
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Strength is also used in climbing, calculating unarmed attack rating, pushing, pulling, breaking out of grapples, preventing someone from disarming you, defending against the decrease attribute spell, and perhaps a couple more things.
Sure. It’s not nothing, but it’s pretty thin. Stack all that up against, say, the many uses for Agility and it starts to look like the least important attribute in the game.
Consider an armed melee combat build with Strength 1, Charisma 1, and a point left to spend (they suck because they didn’t pick A for Attributes). Should they put that point into Strength or into Charisma? Bearing in mind every runner has to pass a basic Con or Etiquette check from time to time? And adding the point to Strength does only the stuff you have listed. I’d have the Charisma, personally.
It's not ideal but imo the value of strength really boils down to who your GM is and what kind of campaign is being played. If your strength is low then its pretty easy to disarm your character or get one net hit on a decrease strength spell to reduce your strength to 0 and incapacitate you. Now personally I think that spell is bullshit when used that way but it is RAW.
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Decrease Attribute is a Physical spell, and Touch, so you'd need to pass an unarmed Close Combat opposed test to use that spell, and can't do it from the astral as a sneak either. So doesn't sound that OP to me.
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It's still pretty questionable imo, getting one-shotted like that would a lot of people. But I admit I did not know those details you provided and that does make it much weaker.
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Is double-posting still taboo here? I never understood why people used to get so upset about that. Anyway, what do you think about the knockout blow edge action? I actually banned it vs prime runners. Quite anti-climactic in that regard but might be okay to beat down grunts, then again, not sure I like that either.
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Is double-posting still taboo here? I never understood why people used to get so upset about that. Anyway, what do you think about the knockout blow edge action? I actually banned it vs prime runners. Quite anti-climactic in that regard but might be okay to beat down grunts, then again, not sure I like that either.
In my group when I GMed it was used regularly on the first run. (consisting of Hacker with Combat Drones, Full Mage with Spirits, and unarmed Melee Troll with Bow and Grenades)
Without Knockout blow the Troll would have been totally overshadowed by the other chars.
Personally i dislike rules like "banned vs xy" Prime Runners have Edge. they can use it to negate Edge ratio 2:1 .
On a side note but related to strength:
Actually playing with the rules showed that Grenades were not once usuable since the group avoided fights out in the open. With a radius of 20m Fragmentation Grenades are not usable 99% of the time... i mention the Grenades because thats another thing many people here on the Forum mentioned to need a nerf down.
If you nerf down Knockout Edge Action and Grenades (for example) then there is nothing left for the strength char to shine ... think about it 8)
edit: and regarding Prime Runners, the book gives them the ability to take Edge from their Mooks ... so when the Prime Runner has PR 2 Mooks and PR 3 Mooks with him thats 5 Edge ... and if he has another 5 Edge (they are created like players so np) thats 10 Edge. 10 Edge is enough to negate 5 Edge - leading to the conclusion Prime Runners are already kind of immune to Edge Actions from a single source - but not for free.
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If your strength is low then its pretty easy to disarm your character
Let's look at that:
Block (A)
A character can add their Close Combat skill to a single Defense test in melee. The roll must happen in the same player turn in which the action is used.
Wrest (Block): When in melee combat, if you successfully Block an attack, you can use this action to wrest your opponent’s weapon away. Roll Close Combat + Agility, with the attacker’s Strength as the threshold. If you equal the threshold, you knock the weapon out of their hands, and it falls to the ground. If you get more hits, you take the weapon from them. If you get fewer hits, the attacker retains the weapon. Cost: 2 Edge
So, to pull this off against a player, an NPC has to:
1) be in close combat
2) have a Minor action to use
3) pull off a Block - an opposed test of player's Close Combat + Agility vs NPC's Close Combat + Agility + Reaction.
4) have two points of Edge to use
5) roll CC+Agility against a threshold of Strength
6) not have the PC win this roll via their own Edge
I don't think that's that easy to pull off.
I don't think grunt-level NPCs are often winning melee combat against PCs - which are the vast majority of NPCs my players fight. According to the stock goons, PR4 has a close combat dice pool of 7; PR5 is 6; PR6 is 12 (getting a bit more dangerous now). NPCs ain't gonna pull those rolls off very often. Sure, I can throw in the odd close-combat specialist once in a while to try and specifically target this weakness. But how often can I do that before it feels cheesy and cheap?
Also, 2 Edge is quite a lot. That's 2 Edge the NPCs could have been using to hurt the PCs.
Also also, so the PC is disarmed now. So...? All they have to do is spend a Major action pulling another weapon. That's not nothing but if you say to most players "would you rather be disarmed or hurt" they're not gonna pick "hurt" very often.
Also also also, I don't think increasing Strength from (say) 1 to 2 drastically shifts the odds on the chance of success on (5). So again, I question the value of boosting Strength to counter this tactic.
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Having strength of 2-3 is probably OK for most characters.
A character focused on melee weapons probably want to have a strength of 3-5 or so.
A character focused on specifically unarmed combat, bows and/or throwing weapons probably want to have a strength of 5+ (where the sky is the limit).
This is not much different than how it is for all other attributes.
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The wrest action is a very thin excuse for strength not affecting Melee weapons. It´s at best a small ncentive not to go Strength 1 with your flashy Katana Elf, but again, that´s not the really big issue here.
The moment you increase your strength to above average levels and/or get one of the (pretty affordable!) bone augments, most weapons are outclassed by fists anyway, so why even bother bringing a knife or a combat axe or getting spurs implanted? Hell, the RAW Telescopic Baton is even outclassed by an unaugmented unarmed attack with completely average stats.
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I'm not saying that the wrest action is a good way to balance an attribute, simply that it is a relevant factor.
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Having strength of 2-3 is probably OK for most characters.
A character focused on melee weapons probably want to have a strength of 3-5 or so.
y tho
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Having strength of 2-3 is probably OK for most characters.
A character focused on melee weapons probably want to have a strength of 3-5 or so.
A character focused on specifically unarmed combat, bows and/or throwing weapons probably want to have a strength of 5+ (where the sky is the limit).
This is not much different than how it is for all other attributes.
Yeah. "Strength is a dump stat!" Unless you're building for Unarmed damage. "Logic is dump stat" unless you're a hacker. "Charisma is a dump stat" unless you're the face. ect. ect. ect.
Shadowrun is a game of specialists. Some Specialists will want different stats than other Specialists. Not all 'runner teams will have every kind of Specialist.
I only played a couple 4e games, there were 3 players. A Shaman, a Face, and a Hacker. We almost failed the run because nobody could open a stuck door or climb a rope.
Strength is as much a dump stat as Logic or Charisma. Good bad or otherwise.
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Having strength of 2-3 is probably OK for most characters.
A character focused on melee weapons probably want to have a strength of 3-5 or so.
y tho
It´s 2-4 at best.
- 2 to not get so easily punished by grapplers, wrenching and creative GMs that want to crack down on min-maxing
- 3 to deal 1 additional Damage in unarmed combat in case you don´t have your weapon ready (also, say goodbye to saps and telescopic batons)
- 4 because... Well ... I dunno, maybe a bit of extra defense against grappling?! :o
Hit 5 and a solid reaction score (which you will have if you want to play any kind of fighter) and your fists are already in the same weightclass as most melee weapons, safe for the hard-to-hide stuff like Polearms and Combat axes. Play a Troll and/or get some bone enhancing juice and you can threw those weapons out even sooner.
Nothing about this is good.
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Yeah. "Strength is a dump stat!" Unless you're building for Unarmed damage. "Logic is dump stat" unless you're a hacker. "Charisma is a dump stat" unless you're the face. ect. ect. ect.
This is misrepresenting the criticism that is being made.
All characters get some utility out of the attributes that are not the primary ones for their archetype. There's always some pretty core activity tied to the attribute that you're going to need to be doing routinely. Or to put it another way, if you bring a character to the table with a 1 in some attribute, your GM and your fellow players are immediately thinking "jeez, we're gonna get fucked now coz this person can't..."
Wil - resisting spells, memory, composure
Log - first aid, memory
Int - perception, judge intentions, surprise
Rea - initiative, surprise, piloting
Cha - bluffing and lying to people, composure
Agi - hitting people with things
Bod - everybody hurts (sometimes)
What is Strength for that is as important as any of these? Even in 5e, it was arguably already the weakest stat unless your role demanded it. Now in 6e, we've lost its effect on melee damage and on recoil.
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I agree with Hobbes that Strength, Agility, Charisma, and Logic are all tempting dump stats for particular builds.
But Penllawen is also correct that Strength is far less impactful for non-unarmed melee builds (whom should find the attribute most useful) than every other attribute is on the builds that rely on it. Not only that, but it is also senseless to not have a direct impact on melee capability (either to hit or damage).
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Not only that, but it is also senseless to not have a direct impact on melee capability (either to hit or damage).
I am still staggered by this. And the associated weirdness that trails behind it, like characters doing less damage when they pick up a sword.
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Yeah. "Strength is a dump stat!" Unless you're building for Unarmed damage. "Logic is dump stat" unless you're a hacker. "Charisma is a dump stat" unless you're the face. ect. ect. ect.
This is misrepresenting the criticism that is being made.
All characters get some utility out of the attributes that are not the primary ones for their archetype. There's always some pretty core activity tied to the attribute that you're going to need to be doing routinely. Or to put it another way, if you bring a character to the table with a 1 in some attribute, your GM and your fellow players are immediately thinking "jeez, we're gonna get fucked now coz this person can't..."
Wil - resisting spells, memory, composure
Log - first aid, memory
Int - perception, judge intentions, surprise
Rea - initiative, surprise, piloting
Cha - bluffing and lying to people, composure
Agi - hitting people with things
Bod - everybody hurts (sometimes)
What is Strength for that is as important as any of these? Even in 5e, it was arguably already the weakest stat unless your role demanded it. Now in 6e, we've lost its effect on melee damage and on recoil.
Unarmed damage, Ye ole bend bars/lift gates and Climbing tests. How often these things come up is table and character dependent. If you want to argue that Memory tests are more important than Climbing tests, go ahead.
You want to argue Str is poorly implemented re: Melee Weapons. I totally agree, I think everyone does. House rule away and hope for Errata. Really nothing else to be done there unfortunately.
Will, Bod, Intuition, Reaction are universally needed Attributes for any Runner who is physically tagging along with the team. The "stay in the Van" sorts can dump Bod, Reaction if they really want to. Every other Attribute is really only needed by specific Archetypes. Yes 'runners should all have a few dice in skills like Perception, Stealth, Con, Influence. But you don't need to have a 5 Agility and Charisma on every 'runner.
Yes, there are more Archetypes that can get by with 2 Str than 2 Agility. But that has been true for many Editions. Monowhips have been around since First Edition. Strength has always been a "Dump Stat".
But unless Unarmed Damage gets some kind of Errata, I'm willing to bet every third Missions character is going to have a high Str for that sweet, sweet Panther Cannon Punch damage. Strength is not Mechanically undervalued because Unarmed Damage is really good for combat characters. In fact, short of the Anticipation of Doom build the Panther Cannon Punch build (IMO) is next in line for overall effectiveness. And you can do both on the same character without much difficulty, you need a high Str combat chassis that picks up Ambidexterity.
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I don’t people think 5 or bust on any stat outside the prime stat for that runner. Less than 5 isn’t a dump. we’re talking 1s and maybe 2s. I mean there are 8 stats and only 24 points to spread around with A in attributes. Some will be dumped most likely.
I’d agree that logic is probably just as much as a dump stat, though I don’t see many people dumping it entirely. I think aesthetically people are more okay with a weak character than a dumb one. But I don’t think any other stat is a dump stat. Can you, sure. You can dump almost any stat. But charisma tests come up often even if your face takes the lead.
There is pretty much no cost in dumpling strength or logic unless it’s directly tied to your build.
As an aside I pretty much hate all of the edge actions. They are terrible design imo.
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If you want to argue that Memory tests are more important than Climbing tests, go ahead.
I’d agree that logic is probably just as much as a dump stat, though I don’t see many people dumping it entirely.
I concur that Logic is the next least painful stat to dump, unless your archetype needs it. But now let's compare which archetypes need Logic vs which ones need Strength:
Logic: hermetic mages, deckers -> many
Strength: unarmed combat specialists -> few
I think it's fair to see why people feel like Strength is underwhelming compared to other attributes.
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First of all, I'll acknowledge that my personal belief is that Strength IS undervalued.
However, I have a couple things to say in defense of Strength in its raw, RAW state:
"Dumping" stats is a meaning that has now changed as of 6we. 2 is not a dump stat- 2 is "average". There's only one value an attribute can be at that's sub-average, and that value is 1. So if you "dump" strength, then at 1 strength you do have serious issues with encumbrance. Carrying capacity is (STR X STR) X 10 kg. That's 10kg at 1 Strength. Per pg. 67-68, you're taking increasing amounts of stun damage for every round you bust your encumbrance limit. Per rule Zero, the GM is free to penalize you in lesser ways for coming close to your maximum carrying capacity without exceeding it: maybe you move slower. Can't gain or spend edge if you're real close to max weight. Whatever. And bear in mind, at 1 STR just the clothes you wear accounts for 10-20% of your MAXIMUM encumbrance- kitting out "full battle rattle" will surely be entering into the realm of Rule Zero penalties, if not page 67-68's penalty.
If you have 2 STR (which only costs 10 karma in chargen, without using a valuable attribute point) then you're not "dumping" strength.
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Carrying capacity is (STR X STR) X 10 kg.
Hang on - someone with strength 4 can walk around carrying 159 kg without penalty?! That's... that's a heck of a lot.
And someone with Strength 1 is taking stun damage walking down the street carrying 11 kg? That's not just weak; that's enfeebled. You can be well below average strength and carry that weight around without being at risk of collapsing. This renders Strength 1 characters all but unplayable.
And this rule is a good rule we should all pay attention to and enforce, you say?
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Can you, sure. You can dump almost any stat. But charisma tests come up often even if your face takes the lead.
Con, Influence, Stealth, ect tests come up frequently but adequate dice pools are achievable even with 1 or 2 in an Attribute. 1 Rank and a Specialization costs 10 Karma and are +3 Dice. Toss in Expertise, get the attribute to 2, find a quality, spell, power, or bit of gear for Edge or another small dice modifier.... you can get to 6 dice in most anything for a modest investment. 6 to 8 dice is about all you're going to get in 6e for your secondary / tertiary dice pools. You just have less resources in 6th than other editions.
If a 6th edition GM is consistently throwing 10+ dice on opposed tests or requiring 3+ hits on PC off skills you're going to have a lot of PC fails. *Shrug* If a Storm Giant clubs a third level Thief that Thief goes splat. That's a table / GM thing to work out.
To get back on topic, climbing a chain link fence, or a rope, isn't an uncommon Shadowrunner activity. You're going to need to get a hit on Athletics plus Strength. If all you have is 2 dice, you're going to need some help. If that help is a Troll Samurai or a Levitate spell will depend on the rest of the team.
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To get back on topic, climbing a chain link fence, or a rope, isn't an uncommon Shadowrunner activity. You're going to need to get a hit on Athletics plus Strength.
That's fair, but you just told us how to pull that off without taking Strength above 1:
adequate dice pools are achievable even with 1 or 2 in an Attribute. 1 Rank and a Specialization costs 10 Karma and are +3 Dice. Toss in Expertise, get the attribute to 2, find a quality, spell, power, or bit of gear for Edge or another small dice modifier.... you can get to 6 dice in most anything for a modest investment.
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Carrying capacity is (STR X STR) X 10 kg.
Hang on - someone with strength 4 can walk around carrying 159 kg without penalty?! That's... that's a heck of a lot.
4 Strength, while low by an optimizer's standard, is rather high by in-universe standards. If you have 4 strength, you're noticeably stronger than average people. Works as intended?
And again, remember rule Zero: 159 kg is a lot more than 5kg. Just because you're at 1kg shy of suffering stun damage every 3 seconds for bearing the load, it doesn't mean you're suffering NO penalties. GM can still adjudicate movement loss, edge denial, etc. Maybe even stun damage once per minute rather than once per round. Whatever.
And someone with Strength 1 is taking stun damage walking down the street carrying 11 kg? That's not just weak; that's enfeebled. You can be well below average strength and carry that weight around without being at risk of collapsing. This renders Strength 1 characters all but unplayable.
Yes, Strength 1 is "all but unplayable" is my counter-argument to "why doesn't 6we give you reasons to not dump Strength?"
And this rule is a good rule we should all pay attention to and enforce, you say?
It's always your table, your game.
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4 Strength, while low by an optimizer's standard, is rather high by in-universe standards.
It's 2/3rds of human max. It's high, it's not that high. But 160 kg is easily twice of what an elite soldier carries into battle today, which (famously) is very much a lot.
God, a human with muscle replacement or a racial-max un-uaged troll can just casually pick up five motorbikes or a small car and just walk around. They're strong. They're not Superman. Max strength is, what, 12? That's 1.5 metric tons. Pick it up, walk a few miles, no big deal.
Western Dragon strength is 40! That's 160 tons! Just carrying around 160 tons for a few hours, without strain!
Scaling this with the square of Strength is crazytown.
Yes, Strength 1 is "all but unplayable" is my counter-argument to "why doesn't 6we give you reasons to not dump Strength?"
"Oh, you think that rule is nonsense? Here's an even more nonsensical one," isn't a terribly effective counter argument.
It's always your table, your game.
Unless it's a Missions table.
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To get back on topic, climbing a chain link fence, or a rope, isn't an uncommon Shadowrunner activity. You're going to need to get a hit on Athletics plus Strength.
That's fair, but you just told us how to pull that off without taking Strength above 1:
adequate dice pools are achievable even with 1 or 2 in an Attribute. 1 Rank and a Specialization costs 10 Karma and are +3 Dice. Toss in Expertise, get the attribute to 2, find a quality, spell, power, or bit of gear for Edge or another small dice modifier.... you can get to 6 dice in most anything for a modest investment.
Exactly. Str 1, Athletics with a Climb Specialization, or be a mage with the Levitate spell. I don't see the mechanical issue here. Characters are going to have lower Attributes and Skills in 6th Edition than 5th because they have less char gen resources.
Same thing for bribing/talking your way past a bouncer, need one hit on some applicable social test. Charisma plus skill plus Specialization. 4 to 6 dice, no problem.
There are a lot of folks who don't like Shadowrunners with a 1 in an Attribute. Totally different discussion. But if a Player is able to shore up mechanically low Attributes with Skill points or otherwise they're fine. If a Player isn't able to shore up low Attributes with Skill points (The Decker that skips Athletics for example) then the team is going to have to bail them out occasionally. That's the way a lot of RPGs work.
I really don't see a problem with a 2 Str being adequate for Deckers, Mages, Riggers, and such. Or 1 Str being "only" an occasional RP issue for these same characters. Maybe that's where we're disagreeing? Because low Attributes are going to happen in 6E, on every character. Just not enough points to go around. "Low" is going to be defined by the table. If you're playing in a game where the GM thinks a 1 in a stat = some kind of cripple, have at least a 2 in all your stats.
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4 Strength, while low by an optimizer's standard, is rather high by in-universe standards.
It's 2/3rds of human max. It's high, it's not that high. But 160 kg is easily twice of what an elite soldier carries into battle today, which (famously) is very much a lot.
God, a human with muscle replacement or a racial-max un-uaged troll can just casually pick up five motorbikes or a small car and just walk around. They're strong. They're not Superman. Max strength is, what, 12? That's 1.5 metric tons. Pick it up, walk a few miles, no big deal.
Western Dragon strength is 40! That's 160 tons! Just carrying around 160 tons for a few hours, without strain!
Scaling this with the square of Strength is crazytown.
Yes, Strength 1 is "all but unplayable" is my counter-argument to "why doesn't 6we give you reasons to not dump Strength?"
"Oh, you think that rule is nonsense? Here's an even more nonsensical one," isn't a terribly effective counter argument.
It's always your table, your game.
Unless it's a Missions table.
Go check out 5th edition to see how much you could carry. It was silly as well, just the other direction. To the point of needing to be a body builder/amateur athlete to put a normal person in a fireman's carry to get them 100 meters.
Yes they're both bad rules. Luckily encumbrance isn't typically a big deal in Shadowrun.
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Yeah. "Strength is a dump stat!" Unless you're building for Unarmed damage. "Logic is dump stat" unless you're a hacker. "Charisma is a dump stat" unless you're the face. ect. ect. ect.
This is misrepresenting the criticism that is being made.
All characters get some utility out of the attributes that are not the primary ones for their archetype. There's always some pretty core activity tied to the attribute that you're going to need to be doing routinely. Or to put it another way, if you bring a character to the table with a 1 in some attribute, your GM and your fellow players are immediately thinking "jeez, we're gonna get fucked now coz this person can't..."
Wil - resisting spells, memory, composure
Log - first aid, memory
Int - perception, judge intentions, surprise
Rea - initiative, surprise, piloting
Cha - bluffing and lying to people, composure
Agi - hitting people with things
Bod - everybody hurts (sometimes)
What is Strength for that is as important as any of these? Even in 5e, it was arguably already the weakest stat unless your role demanded it. Now in 6e, we've lost its effect on melee damage and on recoil.
Unarmed damage, Ye ole bend bars/lift gates and Climbing tests. How often these things come up is table and character dependent. If you want to argue that Memory tests are more important than Climbing tests, go ahead.
You want to argue Str is poorly implemented re: Melee Weapons. I totally agree, I think everyone does. House rule away and hope for Errata. Really nothing else to be done there unfortunately.
Will, Bod, Intuition, Reaction are universally needed Attributes for any Runner who is physically tagging along with the team. The "stay in the Van" sorts can dump Bod, Reaction if they really want to. Every other Attribute is really only needed by specific Archetypes. Yes 'runners should all have a few dice in skills like Perception, Stealth, Con, Influence. But you don't need to have a 5 Agility and Charisma on every 'runner.
Yes, there are more Archetypes that can get by with 2 Str than 2 Agility. But that has been true for many Editions. Monowhips have been around since First Edition. Strength has always been a "Dump Stat".
But unless Unarmed Damage gets some kind of Errata, I'm willing to bet every third Missions character is going to have a high Str for that sweet, sweet Panther Cannon Punch damage. Strength is not Mechanically undervalued because Unarmed Damage is really good for combat characters. In fact, short of the Anticipation of Doom build the Panther Cannon Punch build (IMO) is next in line for overall effectiveness. And you can do both on the same character without much difficulty, you need a high Str combat chassis that picks up Ambidexterity.
Why? Were super strength combat axe trogs everywhere in 5e? Cuz the panther cannon punch is a thing in that version too.
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4 Strength, while low by an optimizer's standard, is rather high by in-universe standards.
It's 2/3rds of human max. It's high, it's not that high. But 160 kg is easily twice of what an elite soldier carries into battle today, which (famously) is very much a lot.
so, again, for the third time now: Rule Zero. There's a whole universe of GM options between "no penalty whatsoever" and "scaling stun damage every round". You're carrying 140kg at 4 strength? Sure you're under your max, but maybe you're so burdened you're walking at half speed. Or can't gain edge till you drop some load. Or even, you're taking scaling stun damage at some period of time greater than per combat round.
God, a human with muscle replacement or a racial-max un-uaged troll can just casually pick up five motorbikes or a small car and just walk around. They're strong. They're not Superman. Max strength is, what, 12? That's 1.5 metric tons. Pick it up, walk a few miles, no big deal.
Would you like to argue with my prediction that the Olympians of the 2020 games will perform feats beyond those achieved by the Olympians of the 1920 games? All the explanations for why athletes will lift more, run faster, and jump farther 100 years apart can also apply to why characters of the Sixth world lift more, run faster, jump farther than those of the Fifth. And that'll be before the benefit of fictional, transhuman augmentations that are reality in the Sixth World.
Western Dragon strength is 40! That's 160 tons! Just carrying around 160 tons for a few hours, without strain!
Scaling this with the square of Strength is crazytown.
It largely doesn't matter how much a Dragon can carry, because A) they don't have a bipedal body plan so all the assumptions underlying carrying rules are already off, and B) you can't play one anyway so you don't need to know how much it can carry around. If the plot needs to know if the Dragon can lift the heavy object you're hiding under off of you, then the rules are there to see if it can. Spoiler: It probably can.
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If you have 2 STR (which only costs 5 karma in chargen, without using a valuable attribute point) then you're not "dumping" strength.
Just a minor note: That should be 10, right, since Shadowrun requires paying the next rank x multiplier? (I play a system that pays current x multi, but SR is "x new rank".) Of course 10 karma in chargen is easier now that you get 50 base customization karma. You can easily raise four ones to twos and still have a decent chunk left.
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If you have 2 STR (which only costs 5 karma in chargen, without using a valuable attribute point) then you're not "dumping" strength.
Just a minor note: That should be 10, right, since Shadowrun requires paying the next rank x multiplier? (I play a system that pays current x multi, but SR is "x new rank".) Of course 10 karma in chargen is easier now that you get 50 base customization karma. You can easily raise four ones to twos and still have a decent chunk left.
Ah, yes. Mea Culpa. Corrected in the post. It's 5xNew Level, not 5. Still, as you say 10 karma in 6we isn't as pricey as 10 karma in 5e. Inflation is a thing, even with Chargen Karma...
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IMO Strength is not a "dumpstat" per se, even besides unarmed combat/Archery builds. A dumpstat is a stat that you can convieniently put down to 1 without having to fear negative outcomes from to it.
However, if you put Strength to 1, you can be easily overwhelmed in grappling combat and also (and I feel that this gets overlooked quite a lot here, because there are no explicit mechanics linked to it), depending on the setting you will face a lot of blockages that you could easily overcome by having a decent amount of Strength - especially if your Gamemaster is not keen on punishing silly min-maxing. Moving heavy stuff, pushing a locked/jammed doors open, intimidation checks*...
But, again, that is not not the problem about Strength: The real (if not only?) problem is that there is a high chance for a high-strength character to get substantially worse by picking up a melee weapon. That just sucks from any possible angle. That´s what needs to be fixed.
*"BuT InTimIdaTiOn iS lInkeD tO CHariSmA" Yeah, of course it is, but if you try to intimidate a bunch of roided up gangers looking like a wet noodle you will be at a disadvantage. Gee, if there only was some kind of auxilary mechanic for these kind of situations where the GM can give some kind of bonus to the side that has an upper hand...
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This is the close combat houserule I'm using at my table:
Close Combat Skill
The primary linked attribute for Close Combat is Strength. Agility is a secondary linked attribute
Unarmed Combat Test
Players may choose between either linked attribute when performing an Unarmed Combat test.
Unarmed Damage
The base DV of a unarmed attack is 2(s)
Only the highest augment applies when determining augmented unarmed DV.
Melee Weapons
Melee weapons are individually tagged as linked to Strength, Agility, or Either. Examples:
Strength
-Combat Axe
-Polearm
-Club
-Sap
-Hardening
-Cyberjaw
Agility
-Whips
-Shock Weapons
-Hand Razors
Either
-everything else
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But, again, that is not not the problem about Strength: The real (if not only?) problem is that there is a high chance for a high-strength character to get substantially worse by picking up a melee weapon. That just sucks from any possible angle. That´s what needs to be fixed.
I agree with you, but am not at liberty to comment further.
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Why? Were super strength combat axe trogs everywhere in 5e? Cuz the panther cannon punch is a thing in that version too.
Firearm damage in 5E was higher relative to melee damage. 6E Unarmed damage scales up much faster compared to Firearms and Melee weapons.
5E Soak was cheap. 6E Soak is really hard to get. 6E the bonus to Soak comes with a Bonus to Unarmed damage, so it's a low to non-existent opportunity cost to pick up bonus Unarmed damage in 6E for Mundane Combat characters. (Because they were buying the bonus to Soak dice anyway).
Also Muscle Replacement got cheaper in 6E, so Str got cheaper. And you can start with the Augmented Max at Char Gen.
Dermal Deposits, low karma cost for a +1 Unarmed DV. 6e option, not available in 5e. (5e Chrome Flesh has some similar options though, but cost Essence.)
I suspect there will be more Unarmed builds at Missions tables than previous editions because it's simply better mechanically to punch things in 6E. And builds that punch things were pretty popular anyway.
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The real (if not only?) problem is that there is a high chance for a high-strength character to get substantially worse by picking up a melee weapon.
But the root cause here is not that melee weapons does not scale with strength, the root cause is that unarmed combat scale too well with strength.
For example; Melee weapons would be perfectly fine if unarmed combat had a fixed base DV of 2 ;-)
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The real (if not only?) problem is that there is a high chance for a high-strength character to get substantially worse by picking up a melee weapon.
But the root cause here is not that melee weapons does not scale with strength, the root cause is that unarmed combat scale too well with strength.
For example; Melee weapons would be perfectly fine if unarmed combat had a fixed base DV of 2 ;-)
I wonder if fhat was the original intent. With how badly edited the book is it would not surprise me.
But also, an elf w/ 2 str can hit w/ a baseball bat and cause concussions and broken bones. A troll w/ 9 str can hit w/ a baseball bat and cause concussions and shattered bones, which is no different than what he'd do with his hands. The problem is, how come the mechanics of the game say the troll does less damage with the bat than with his hands? How strong should a troll be? How much of an impact does str need to have on damage? Damage is a complete abstraction but strength gives us realworld examples of what the number means.
Side note: bone augs dont seem like the best ROI for defense. Reaction and initiative boosts will keep you from taking any damage or reduce net hits which also reduces damage. Once you get that locked in then you start looking at bone augmentation with whatever essence you have leftover. IDK if that will matter to people who wanna play Giant Troll With A Giant Axe, but...
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But the root cause here is not that melee weapons does not scale with strength, the root cause is that unarmed combat scale too well with strength.
For example; Melee weapons would be perfectly fine if unarmed combat had a fixed base DV of 2 ;-)
Fun and related anecdote: after initial play sessions of SR6 one of my players asked about Strength and how it didn't influence the damage of his character's sword attacks. He thought not involving strength was "stupid" so I set about making up a house-rule that made things make sense, resulted in a little more consistency across melee attack forms, and also made sure that melee weapons and punches weren't doing anti-vehicular levels of damage... plus it had the side effect of making it so that most characters would always increase their damage by using a weapon.
I don't remember all the details off-hand, but the rule basically set unarmed DV base to 1S and applied a boost to melee damage the same way as cyberlimb hardening (I think... whichever thing it was that gives a higher DV if your strength is 7+ or whatever).
He hated it.
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He hated it.
Be careful what you wish for
'Cause you just might get it
You just might get it
You just might get it
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Side note: bone augs dont seem like the best ROI for defense. Reaction and initiative boosts will keep you from taking any damage or reduce net hits which also reduces damage. Once you get that locked in then you start looking at bone augmentation with whatever essence you have leftover. IDK if that will matter to people who wanna play Giant Troll With A Giant Axe, but...
Soak dice are rare and precious things in 6E. And are your second chance to reduce incoming damage. Typically you're picking up Reaction from whatever initiative booster you're taking, the Reaction increase is nice but secondary to more Minor Actions. A Samurai build really isn't going to be choosing between Wired Reflexes and Bone Augmentation based on how much damage reduction they'd expect.
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Hang on - someone with strength 4 can walk around carrying 159 kg without penalty?! That's... that's a heck of a lot.
And someone with Strength 1 is taking stun damage walking down the street carrying 11 kg? That's not just weak; that's enfeebled. You can be well below average strength and carry that weight around without being at risk of collapsing. This renders Strength 1 characters all but unplayable.
In my experience very few games have encumbrance math that is even moderately realistic, but that is the math we have to work with.
While I personally would still use it (only because I tend to be a by the book kind of guy), I'd still much rather see the value of focusing on Strength increased as opposed to incentivizing it by overpenalizing dumped stats.
However, if you put Strength to 1, you can be easily overwhelmed in grappling combat
To me, this is the only valid argument for why one should not dump strength. Grappling is savage in this edition.
But that said, it is also very easy to build a character that the grappler will just never hit, so there is always that. Full defense, block, dodge, combat sense, ect. are good ways to ensue you most likely avoid the one attack you don't want to land.