Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: SDTroll on <11-20-19/0944:18>
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Instead of attacking the decker directly, could you data spike his cyberjack? Or his cyberdeck? Seems like a much more effective approach than just taking out his matrix persona.
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Cyberjack maybe... but the defence roll would be the same either way. Also if you "want to get to" a device on a PAN you need access to the PAN. Would this mean you need user access to spike a cyberjack... iunno, maybe. The wording is exactly as I've quoted it, "get to."
Cyberdeck on the other hand... that's what you're attacking when you attack their persona, it's running on their cyberdeck.
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Data Spike can be done with outsider access, so you shouldn't need a back door or brute force to do it. It's been said that you can see any devices in the network if you can see the network, so you can presumably choose your target. Bricking a decker's cyberjack would be much nastier than just knocking them out, since they would have to buy an all new one and presumably go through surgery and recovery again.
Even better would be to link lock them, knock them out, then brick everything.
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Yes you sure can ... the defense pool is still the same but you can choose to damage the device directly instead of the persona... not always a better choice though as the condition monitors can sometimes be pretty beefy for devices.
Leith ... just a quick note. I addressed this a few time but remember data spike only requires Outsider which is the default access level for everything prior to hacking a network. So no need to gain access to data spike a device as long as you can detect it.
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Just an amusing note on literal rule reading. The paragraph on bricked devices says "users of a bricked device are abruptly ejected from the Matrix"
Brick someone's stun baton and dump them. :D :)
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I missed this the first time. If you are beaten in cybercombat, your deck is bricked? Meaning you have to buy a new deck any time you get taken out in cybercombat? Ouch.
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Um, yeah ... written as we were talking devices that connect you to the matrix and not just any old device ... so yeah needs a slight rewrite.
Bricked devices are not destroyed and can be repaired ... which I had rules for but can't remember if they made it into the CRB now that I think about it .... hmmmm
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I missed this the first time. If you are beaten in cybercombat, your deck is bricked? Meaning you have to buy a new deck any time you get taken out in cybercombat? Ouch.
You don't have to replace a bricked device in this edition, you can repair it instead.
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I missed this the first time. If you are beaten in cybercombat, your deck is bricked? Meaning you have to buy a new deck any time you get taken out in cybercombat? Ouch.
You don't have to replace a bricked device in this edition, you can repair it instead.
That’s better, at least. Would you use biotech to repair cyberware rather than engineering?
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I missed this the first time. If you are beaten in cybercombat, your deck is bricked? Meaning you have to buy a new deck any time you get taken out in cybercombat? Ouch.
You don't have to replace a bricked device in this edition, you can repair it instead.
That’s better, at least. Would you use biotech to repair cyberware rather than engineering?
Yes
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The relevant skill for repairing cyberware in 5e would have been Cybertechnology, so that's the appropriate Biotech specialization in 6we.
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Instead of attacking the decker directly, could you data spike his cyberjack? Or his cyberdeck? Seems like a much more effective approach than just taking out his matrix persona.
A matrix persona based on a device does not have a condition monitor of its own, it is using the condition monitor of a device (normally a commlink but in the case of a hacker it is probably a cyberjack and in the case of a rigger it is probably a RCC). This device is also what you are normally targeting when you use Data Spike on a device based persona.
And if you brick the persona (or rather the commlink, cyberjack or RCC) then the user will be dumped from the matrix and take matrix damage.
But of course you can also choose to not attack the persona and instead aim your Data Spike towards a smartgun or a maglock or a cyberdeck or some other device..... If the targeted device is part of the PAN then they will still use benefit from the Data Processing and Firewall of the commlink / cyberjack / RCC but I don't think the intention is that you get dumped from the matrix if your smartgun (or any other device except the device you use to connect to the matrix) get bricked.
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but I don't think the intention is that you get dumped from the matrix if your smartgun (or any other device except the device you use to connect to the matrix) get bricked
I know, it’s just funny that RAW technically works that way.
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@Xenon.
I think its the cyberdeck that creates the persona, not the cyberjack.
So most attacks would hit the deck.
IThe deck is described as a link, just with attack options. Page 174 last sentence under "Devices" section.
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"What physical device suffers the damage when your persona takes matrix damage" is a point of clarification that remains to be made.
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Interesting...
I thought [assumed] the idea of splitting the cyberdeck was that you still based your matrix persona on the device with a Data Processing rating. That the device with Data Processing was your link to the matrix...?
... and that the cyberdeck (in this edition) was just a specialized device you needed to have if you also wanted to take illegal actions (once you were already connected to the matrix). That decker need [required] to have one out of cyberjack and commlink for the D/F array. And then you [optionally] add a cyberdeck on top of that to get the full A/S+D/F array...?
I don't think any of this is actually described, so I am the first to admit that my assumption might very well be totally wrong :-)
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Interesting...
I thought [assumed] the idea of splitting the cyberdeck was that you still based your matrix persona on the device with a Data Processing rating. That the device with Data Processing was your link to the matrix...?
... and that the cyberdeck (in this edition) was just a specialized device you needed to have if you also wanted to take illegal actions (once you were already connected to the matrix). That decker need [required] to have one out of cyberjack and commlink for the D/F array. And then you [optionally] add a cyberdeck on top of that to get the full A/S+D/F array...?
I don't think any of this is actually described, so I am the first to admit that my assumption might very well be totally wrong :-)
That was the original intent (sort of ... I was thinking Firewall) and one of reasons why I am against the attribute swapping across devices. Once that door is open then it changes where the DP/F is coming from then if it is based on attribute source then what happens if I swap to the other device. Just gets messy ... I've made a proposal to clear it, it has been tweaked by the errata committee, now we just have to see what the end result is.
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Going all with all the discussion on Data Spike and Matrix damage. Unlike in physical combat, there is no "soak" roll in the Matrix unless you're running the right programs and your meat-body is targeted, right?
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By default, Matrix damage is resisted with Firewall and Biofeedback damage is resisted with Willpower.
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Resisted I get. But if the resistance doesn't reduce the attacker's hits to 0, there is no follow up "soak" roll like there is in physical combat, right?
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Resisted I get. But if the resistance doesn't reduce the attacker's hits to 0, there is no follow up "soak" roll like there is in physical combat, right?
The resistance hecis talking about is the soak roll ... for example data spike is opposed by data processing but resisted with firewall
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Resisted I get. But if the resistance doesn't reduce the attacker's hits to 0, there is no follow up "soak" roll like there is in physical combat, right?
The resistance hecis talking about is the soak roll ... for example data spike is opposed by data processing but resisted with firewall
Well, no surprise, I’m confused again. When hit with a data spike, the attacker rolls cracking + logic, correct? The target rolls data processing + firewall. More net hits wins. So if the target gets more net hits, nothing happens. If the attacker ties or gets more hits, the defender takes attack rating/2 + net hits in damage. Does the defender get any kind of soak roll?
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Resisted I get. But if the resistance doesn't reduce the attacker's hits to 0, there is no follow up "soak" roll like there is in physical combat, right?
The resistance hecis talking about is the soak roll ... for example data spike is opposed by data processing but resisted with firewall
Well, no surprise, I’m confused again. When hit with a data spike, the attacker rolls cracking + logic, correct? The target rolls data processing + firewall. More net hits wins. So if the target gets more net hits, nothing happens. If the attacker ties or gets more hits, the defender takes attack rating/2 + net hits in damage. Does the defender get any kind of soak roll?
Yes ... matrix damage is resisted(soaked) with firewall and biofeedback damage with willpower... it works just like regular combat but with different attribute pools.
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Resisted I get. But if the resistance doesn't reduce the attacker's hits to 0, there is no follow up "soak" roll like there is in physical combat, right?
The resistance hecis talking about is the soak roll ... for example data spike is opposed by data processing but resisted with firewall
Well, no surprise, I’m confused again. When hit with a data spike, the attacker rolls cracking + logic, correct? The target rolls data processing + firewall. More net hits wins. So if the target gets more net hits, nothing happens. If the attacker ties or gets more hits, the defender takes attack rating/2 + net hits in damage. Does the defender get any kind of soak roll?
Yes ... matrix damage is resisted(soaked) with firewall and biofeedback damage with willpower... it works just like regular combat but with different attribute pools.
So he rolls his data processing plus firewall to avoid damage, then his firewall again to soak if he gets hit, correct?
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Resisted I get. But if the resistance doesn't reduce the attacker's hits to 0, there is no follow up "soak" roll like there is in physical combat, right?
The resistance hecis talking about is the soak roll ... for example data spike is opposed by data processing but resisted with firewall
Well, no surprise, I’m confused again. When hit with a data spike, the attacker rolls cracking + logic, correct? The target rolls data processing + firewall. More net hits wins. So if the target gets more net hits, nothing happens. If the attacker ties or gets more hits, the defender takes attack rating/2 + net hits in damage. Does the defender get any kind of soak roll?
Yes ... matrix damage is resisted(soaked) with firewall and biofeedback damage with willpower... it works just like regular combat but with different attribute pools.
So he rolls his data processing plus firewall to avoid damage, then his firewall again to soak if he gets hit, correct?
Yes
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Resisted I get. But if the resistance doesn't reduce the attacker's hits to 0, there is no follow up "soak" roll like there is in physical combat, right?
The resistance hecis talking about is the soak roll ... for example data spike is opposed by data processing but resisted with firewall
Well, no surprise, I’m confused again. When hit with a data spike, the attacker rolls cracking + logic, correct? The target rolls data processing + firewall. More net hits wins. So if the target gets more net hits, nothing happens. If the attacker ties or gets more hits, the defender takes attack rating/2 + net hits in damage. Does the defender get any kind of soak roll?
Yes ... matrix damage is resisted(soaked) with firewall and biofeedback damage with willpower... it works just like regular combat but with different attribute pools.
So he rolls his data processing plus firewall to avoid damage, then his firewall again to soak if he gets hit, correct?
Yes
Wow, right twice? This calls for a celebration. 😉
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Umm...are we sure about this? Reading through the physical combat section, beginning on pg 104, it goes through the 5 steps of the combat process. 1) grab dice, 2) distribute Edge, 3) roll dice and spend Edge, 4) Soak some damage, and 5) bring the pain. It's that #4 step that sticks out to me.
Now, in the Matrix section, beginning on pg 175, it goes through just the 4 steps of using the Matrix. 1) grab dice, 2) distribute Edge, 3) roll dice, and 4) determine effect. No Soak some damage step. Even in the cybercombat section (such as it is), beginning on pg 179, there's no mention of soaking damage, just how to determine a device's Condition Monitor. Data Spike, pg 181, says a successful action causes damage equal to Attack Rating/2 + net hits on the action test. If you're running the Biofeedback program, it causes Stun damage to a cold-sim target, Physical damage to a hot-sim target. The way I'm reading it, there is only a "soak" roll if the target is running the Biofeedback Filter program, pg 184.
If I'm wrong, great. The inconsistency between physical combat and Matrix is pronounced on this one issue and my hacker-player isn't too thrilled about it.
Not to drag Magic into this technological discussion, but damage from direct spells seems to be of the non-soaked variety, too. Indirect ones can still be "dodged" and later "soaked" per normal combat rules.
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There's no blanket step in matrix actions for soaking damage because they don't generally cause damage. Data Spike is an outlier in that it causes matrix damage. Soaking matrix damage is covered on pg. 179 (this was added via errata). By contrast, compare to Resonance Spike which actually says there's no soak.
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Ahh! The damnable errata rears its ugly head once more. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!