Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: SDTroll on <12-14-19/2250:49>
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The noise rules still confuse me some, I know surprise, surprise.
I understand the concept, the farther away you are the lower your numbers and too far away you can’t affect the system at all. What happens if one person has a strong enough cyberdeck to penetrate the noise, but his target doesn’t? Say a hacker is across the city, his system lets him overcome the noise, so he decides to attack a commuter who has a crappy commlink and can’t overcome the noise to the hacker? Can the hacker hit the commuter with impunity? Assuming he doesn’t bring GOD down on himself. Can the commuter even see the hacker? Or does the noise prevent the hacker from being detected?
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What happens if one person has a strong enough cyberdeck to penetrate the noise, but his target doesn’t?
If the target does not have enough to beat situational noise (spam zone, static zone, jammer etc) then it will not be connected to the matrix. There is often no distance to talk about here (for the target) unless perhaps in the case where the target don't have a satellite link and the target is also (are at the same time) out in the wilderness far far away from other networks.
A target that suffer too much noise will not be connected to the matrix, will not benefit from wireless bonuses and can also not cannot be hacked (unless via direct connection).
Say a hacker is across the city, his system lets him overcome the noise, so he decides to attack a commuter who has a crappy commlink and can’t overcome the noise to the hacker?
The commuter don't need to overcome the distance between the himself and a potential hacker. The commuter only need enough to beat the local static or spam zone generated noise in order to be connected to the matrix.
Can the hacker hit the commuter with impunity? Assuming he doesn’t bring GOD down on himself.
Since the commuter don't have a cyberdeck he cannot engage the hacker in cybercombat, even if he had enough noise reduction to interact with the hacker.
Having said that, the commuter can still defend against data spike using the firewall of his crappy commlink, take the matrix full defense action to add firewall a second time and/or turn off his wireless enabled devices.
Can the commuter even see the hacker?
Yes.
Unless the hacker's network is currently trying to hide (running silent). In that case the commuter need to first spot the hacker's network (which might be tricky due to the extra noise modifier due to distance).
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I’m really not trying to be dense, let me try a more specific example. Hacker Jack is sitting in his van 100 km from the run site. This gives him a 5 noise rating. Fortunately he has a rating 6 cyber jack and cyberdeck. He can just barely affect the target with a -5. Due to that, or just bad luck he alerts the security spider. The company is on a budget, so the spider has a rating 4 deck and jack. The physical distance between them is still 100 km, so can the spider even affect Jack? Presumably he can defend against Jack’s attack, but the noise should prevent him from targeting Jack, right?
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Xenon and I have a difference of opinion on Noise and Hosts. You can read more about our different points of view here (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=30742.msg532487#msg532487)... I won't derail this thread by repeating them here.
But with regards to my POV, I'd give you my answer to your more specific example.
I’m really not trying to be dense, let me try a more specific example. Hacker Jack is sitting in his van 100 km from the run site. This gives him a 5 noise rating. Fortunately he has a rating 6 cyber jack and cyberdeck. He can just barely affect the target with a -5. Due to that, or just bad luck he alerts the security spider. The company is on a budget, so the spider has a rating 4 deck and jack. The physical distance between them is still 100 km, so can the spider even affect Jack? Presumably he can defend against Jack’s attack, but the noise should prevent him from targeting Jack, right?
Ok, Hacker Jack is 100km away from the facility the run will infiltrate, resulting in 5 Noise, and no other local conditions inflict more Noise on him. So he's able to hack icons networked to the Host at -5 dice (or even a smaller penalty, if he's got Signal Scrubber or other Noise reduction tricks in play). Now, Hosts have a lot of similarities to PANs but they're not the exact same thing as PANs. For example, you "Enter" Hosts (see pg. 181) but when it comes to hacking PANs, you just achieve whatever level of access you desire and go from there.
Now, it doesn't SAY you ignore distance after executing the Enter Host action, but IMO that's a simple oversight and the intent is that you do cease to count distance based Noise after entering the Host. But presuming you do ignore the distance based Noise- then the IC and Spiders have no Noise-based trouble taking actions against a Persona inside their own Host.
Of course if you DON'T presume you ignore distance when inside Hosts, then yes on top of the problem of "how does global commerce even work" you have the problem of potentially having Spiders and IC being unable to affect a hacker, which surely isn't the intent.
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Book doesn't really say.
In previous edition noise due to distance did only act as a negative dice pool modifier (think latency when playing online FPS games) and you were also considered Directly Connected (zero distance) to icons within the same host (no matter physical distance).
Not clear if this is still the intent or not.
With a strict reading of RAW you are no longer considered directly connected even if you are in the same host which mean the physical distance will count as a negative dice pool modifier.
A strict reading of RAW also says that if the [total] noise rating (situational noise due to for example static zones, spam zones, hammers + inhabiting noise due to for example wireless negating paint or wallpaper or the jam signal matrix action + noise due to distance - noise reduction) exceed device rating then you cannot connect and no action is possible.
Having said that, there is also an edge action that let you take a matrix action even in extreme noise situations.
Slipped by Stainless Steel Devil Rat (but we basically say the same thing).
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So it sounds like my confusion about noise is fairly universal.
Just as an interesting question, what do people think security spiders use to get online? Cyberdeck are illegal, so they shouldn’t be able to use those, although extra territoriality might change that for the really big corps. Maybe an idea for a corporate service. A Corp with extraterritoriality hires out spiders to help smaller corps defend their nodes
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Well, what's illegal for the general public isn't always illegal for legit users. Army soldiers can use tanks, even though there's no such thing as a license for one.
Same thing with spiders. They're NPCs. It's legal for them to have cyberdecks. They don't have to follow the rules. Suck it, shadowrunner.
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Hey gang just my 2 cents worth of opinion... but yes I would agree that noise due to distance inside a host should not be an issue, at least for legit users.
What I mean by that is Hacker Jack whibis trying to gain access from 100km will be paying the price for being so far away but Spider Joe has a legitimate secure connection to the host since he belongs there according to the host and owner and therefore has no distance penalty for being connected. Also since Hacker Jack came to him he does not have distance penalty to effect Hacker Jacka persona there too. It's the price you pay for being an illegal user.
As for devices, as others said... yes those corporate spiders have cyberdecks of their own. Cyberdecks are only illegal for the general public because the corps don't want them on the streets.
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Hey gang just my 2 cents worth of opinion... but yes I would agree that noise due to distance inside a host should not be an issue, at least for legit users.
What I mean by that is Hacker Jack whibis trying to gain access from 100km will be paying the price for being so far away but Spider Joe has a legitimate secure connection to the host since he belongs there according to the host and owner and therefore has no distance penalty for being connected. Also since Hacker Jack came to him he does not have distance penalty to effect Hacker Jacka persona there too. It's the price you pay for being an illegal user
Except the noise chart specifically says physical distance to target. Hacker Jack hasn’t changed his physical distance by going to the host in the matrix, so why wouldn’t noise apply? He is still 100km away. No question the spider would have no noise from distance when interacting with things physically present at the host, automatic guns, door locks, last ditch nuclear deterrent in the basement, but Hacker Jack isn’t physically present.
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Because Hosts are global. You either have a Host that's only locally accessible, or you have a Host that's simply there. You don't remote hack into a Host located in Seattle, you hack into a Host. That's what sets apart a Host from a PAN.
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Because Hosts are global. You either have a Host that's only locally accessible, or you have a Host that's simply there. You don't remote hack into a Host located in Seattle, you hack into a Host. That's what sets apart a Host from a PAN.
So, why does a hacker face distance noise? If the host is everywhere it should be just as easy to access it from the Arctic Circle or downtown Seattle
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Because Hosts are global. You either have a Host that's only locally accessible, or you have a Host that's simply there. You don't remote hack into a Host located in Seattle, you hack into a Host. That's what sets apart a Host from a PAN.
So, why does a hacker face distance noise? If the host is everywhere it should be just as easy to access it from the Arctic Circle or downtown Seattle
Even if you presume Hosts don't have a physical location, it doesn't mean that everything is immune to distance noise. If you want to tap Mr. Johnson's commlink and listen to his commcalls, his physical location is still completely relevant.
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Because Hosts are global. You either have a Host that's only locally accessible, or you have a Host that's simply there. You don't remote hack into a Host located in Seattle, you hack into a Host. That's what sets apart a Host from a PAN.
So, why does a hacker face distance noise? If the host is everywhere it should be just as easy to access it from the Arctic Circle or downtown Seattle
Even if you presume Hosts don't have a physical location, it doesn't mean that everything is immune to distance noise. If you want to tap Mr. Johnson's commlink and listen to his commcalls, his physical location is still completely relevant.
Then noise would only matter when dealing with PANs and can be ignored with hosts?
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As discussed there are potentially different interpretations. But yes, it's my view that distance Noise applies to PANs and un-networked devices, and not to Hosts.
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So back to hack the world from your living room, other than PAN
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No, as I said earlier a hacker would have the noise penalty based on the distance between them and the host (more specifically it would be the access point of the host) while the spider technically does as well their distance should be zero since they should be set by the Corp with a nice convenient access point. Physical distance between the two personas don't mean anything since they are both occupying the host at that time it would be distance between each of them and the host.
So .. the hacker has a penalty and the spider does not. Welcome to big brother's home turf.
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Banshee that raises a spinoff question I have:
If the hacker wants to hack a door lock or security camera networked/slaved/controlled by the Host, do you have to successfully enter the host first or can you just go right after the devices in the same way as if they were PAN'd?
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Banshee that raises a spinoff question I have:
If the hacker wants to hack a door lock or security camera networked/slaved/controlled by the Host, do you have to successfully enter the host first or can you just go right after the devices in the same way as if they were PAN'd?
Short answer, yes.
If you can connect to the device (either because it is wireless or you physically can connect) you can hack it .. it just gets to defend with the host's defenses. So in essence you are gaining access (unless taking an action that does not require access) to the host through the device.
Remember it's not about the the whole master/slave relationship anymore. A network is a network... the only thing that makes a host different from a pan is the amount of processing power they possess granting them the increase ares of influence essentially.
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No, as I said earlier a hacker would have the noise penalty based on the distance between them and the host (more specifically it would be the access point of the host) while the spider technically does as well their distance should be zero since they should be set by the Corp with a nice convenient access point. Physical distance between the two personas don't mean anything since they are both occupying the host at that time it would be distance between each of them and the host.
So .. the hacker has a penalty and the spider does not. Welcome to big brother's home turf.
Ok, I don’t get it, but it’s your game, thus exposing the spider to the noise penalty? Or does being a spider mean they are totally immune to noise no matter where the hacker goes?
What about two hackers fighting in a chat room? Do they both have noise penalties? Can you even do a chat room? Do all hackers have to be within noise range?
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Banshee that raises a spinoff question I have:
If the hacker wants to hack a door lock or security camera networked/slaved/controlled by the Host, do you have to successfully enter the host first or can you just go right after the devices in the same way as if they were PAN'd?
Short answer, yes.
If you can connect to the device (either because it is wireless or you physically can connect) you can hack it .. it just gets to defend with the host's defenses. So in essence you are gaining access (unless taking an action that does not require access) to the host through the device.
Remember it's not about the the whole master/slave relationship anymore. A network is a network... the only thing that makes a host different from a pan is the amount of processing power they possess granting them the increase ares of influence essentially.
Now I’m even more confused. The paragraph under hosts in the matrix section specifically says that any icons inside the host are not accessible unless they are expressly part of the public facing side. Is that not correct?
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If the "fight" were to leave the host and the spider had to pursue the hacker to another matrix "location" then yes he would be facing noise penalty.
As the rest of you a "chat room" would just be a node setup on a common host/network... so yes if they are not "local" theyvwould have issues. Remember as I have stated elsewhere ... it's about the distance between you and the access point. So yes most often the only time that distance is an issue is if you are trying to access a PAN or private host.
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Banshee that raises a spinoff question I have:
If the hacker wants to hack a door lock or security camera networked/slaved/controlled by the Host, do you have to successfully enter the host first or can you just go right after the devices in the same way as if they were PAN'd?
Short answer, yes.
If you can connect to the device (either because it is wireless or you physically can connect) you can hack it .. it just gets to defend with the host's defenses. So in essence you are gaining access (unless taking an action that does not require access) to the host through the device.
Remember it's not about the the whole master/slave relationship anymore. A network is a network... the only thing that makes a host different from a pan is the amount of processing power they possess granting them the increase ares of influence essentially.
Now I’m even more confused. The paragraph under hosts in the matrix section specifically says that any icons inside the host are not accessible unless they are expressly part of the public facing side. Is that not correct?
It is correct... again it's about networks not icons. If you want to interact with an icon that is inside the host you must first access the host. It really is way more simple than people want to make it. A network is a network is a network ... want to interact with anything on that network gain access to that network. (With the one caveat being not all things require actual access)
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Banshee that raises a spinoff question I have:
If the hacker wants to hack a door lock or security camera networked/slaved/controlled by the Host, do you have to successfully enter the host first or can you just go right after the devices in the same way as if they were PAN'd?
Short answer, yes.
If you can connect to the device (either because it is wireless or you physically can connect) you can hack it .. it just gets to defend with the host's defenses. So in essence you are gaining access (unless taking an action that does not require access) to the host through the device.
Remember it's not about the the whole master/slave relationship anymore. A network is a network... the only thing that makes a host different from a pan is the amount of processing power they possess granting them the increase ares of influence essentially.
Now I’m even more confused. The paragraph under hosts in the matrix section specifically says that any icons inside the host are not accessible unless they are expressly part of the public facing side. Is that not correct?
It is correct... again it's about networks not icons. If you want to interact with an icon that is inside the host you must first access the host. It really is way more simple than people want to make it. A network is a network is a network ... want to interact with anything on that network gain access to that network. (With the one caveat being not all things require actual access)
Oh how I wish it was simple. Every answer seems to contradict another one. Trying to make it make sense, the rules specifically say icons in a host are not accessible unless you have access to the host. Gaining access to the host allows you to interact with the icons. I assumed that meant you can’t interact with the icons in a host without access, meaning, unlike a PAN, you can’t data spike them or anything else without getting access through backdoor entry or brute force. Otherwise why have the paragraph at all?
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If noise exists to force hackers closer to their targets, why is staying home bad?
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If noise exists to force hackers closer to their targets, why is staying home bad?
"Let's go get pizza while the decker's player and the GM do the hacking thing" has been a chronic problem in Shadowrun since, forever. Every edition since 2nd has tried to address it one way or another.
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If noise exists to force hackers closer to their targets, why is staying home bad?
"Let's go get pizza while the decker's player and the GM do the hacking thing" has been a chronic problem in Shadowrun since, forever. Every edition since 2nd has tried to address it one way or another.
Having to go somewhere doesn't address that.
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A slight note: There are Hosts that are location-bound: If you're away from them, you suffer.
Furthermore, if you're hacking a Host directly, you have an increased risk of Spiders / IC noticing you while you're trying to find one of the MANY cameras to hack. If you're in-situ, you can probably identify the camera better and hack it without having to find it first.
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In this edition it seem to be confusing what you can and cannot do without taking the Enter Host action ;-)
For example:
To data spike a wireless enabled device that is part of a host network it seem as if you don't first need user or admin access to the network (data spike an outside access action). I read this as if you also don't have to be "inside" (taking the Enter Host action) the host before you can take this action.
In previous edition a hacker could
- Data spike it directly out on the grid without having access to the host (but in this case it would defend with master ratings and the hacker would potential also suffer noise penalties)
- Use a cable between cyberdeck and the device / physically touching it with skin link echo (ignoring both master ratings and noise ratings)
- First gain access on the host and then enter the host (have to watch out for IC and spider but once inside the host a potential hacker would be considered direct connected which let him ignore both master ratings and noise ratings).
To control a wireless enabled device that is part of a host network it seem as if you first need user or admin access on the network (depending on what you want to do with the device). Not clear if you also need to be "inside" the host (taking the Enter Host action) or not.
Is the device out on the grid or is the device inside the host. Can you "see" the device from the grid before entering the host? Can you "see" the device from inside a host after you entered the host?
In previous edition the distance to hosts were always zero no matter where in the physical world you were located and a wireless device was always out on the grid, but if part of a host network you would be considered directly connected to devices slaved to the host even though they were out on the grid (which meant you could interact with them directly from within the host and since you were directly connected to them you would also ignore master ratings when attacking them and you would also ignore noise ratings).
In previous edition a hacker would have to gain access on the individual device and then either
- Control it directly from the grid (in this case it would defend with master ratings and the hacker would potential suffer noise penalties)
- Use a cable between cyberdeck and the device / physically touching it with skin link echo (ignoring host and noise ratings)
- First gain access to the host and enter the host (have to watch out for IC and spider but would be considered having a direct connection to ignore host and noise ratings).
To edit a file located on a host network you first need user or admin access to the network and you also might need to find the specific file (for example by using hash check). Not clear if you also need to be "inside" the host (taking the Enter Host action) but it seems plausible.
In previous edition your only option was to first gain access on the host, take the Enter Host action, matrix search action with a base time of 1 minute to locate the specific file and then you had to gain access on the individual file icon as well. The file would defend with host ratings, but the "distance" would always be considered to be zero.
Also not clear if some actions are obvious and will alert the host or if other actions are stealthy and does not alert the host. Except for a few actions have the behavior explicitly listed (such as Probe).
In previous edition all actions that used Attack as limit were considered immediately obvious and would always alert the target if successful (cracking a protected file, for example) while all actions that use Sleaze as a limit were considered stealthy and was never noticed as long as successful but on failed attempt the action was not only noticed, the target (or the owner of the target) would also automatically gain access on the offender (snoop for example).
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In this edition it seem to be confusing what you can and cannot do without taking the Enter Host action ;-)
I'm picking up what you're putting down ;-)
However, I think if you just presume there's an un-stated rule that you have to successfully enter a host before you can do anything to the devices protected by that host, it gets simple.
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Actually it's even more simple than that really ... if you can "see" thecicon for the device you can hack it. In otherwords you can data spike (or use any action requiring outsider access) anything anywhere ... as long as you can detect it. Want to do something that requires user or admin access then hack the network it belongs to first to gain access.
So stuff inside a host is just like anything inside of PAN ... a network is a network is a network... the defining "attribute" is can you detect it?
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more specifically it would be the access point of the host .... Physical distance between the two personas don't mean anything since they are both occupying the host at that time it would be distance between each of them and the host.
Oh... This is interesting.
So would you say that the physical distance could be measured between the attacker and the physically closest point of the network?
For example if a host is physically located in Berlin, but one of the devices that is part of the network happen to be a vending machine in downtown Seattle. Would a hacker located in Seattle that wish to probe the network measure the distance from his cyberdeck and the vending machine in downtown Seattle...?
Actually it's even more simple than that really ... if you can "see" thecicon for the device you can hack it.
But that's the thing. It is not clear what the intention is here. What are we supposed to see and what are we not supposed to see. When is the Enter Host action required and when is it enough to 'just' have user or admin access on the network....?
I am assuming that I can 'see' a specific wireless device that have a matrix connection (for example a traffic camera overlooking in the corner of Zimmerstrasse and Wilhelmstrasse in central Berlin - even if I am currently physically in Seattle) and no matter if it is part of a mobile personal network, part of a stationary wide area network or not part of a network at all (in the sense that I can target it with Data Spike or Spoof Command).
I am also assuming that I don't need to take a test to 'see' a specific device, unless the network it is part of is running silent (in which case it seem to be resolved as a matrix perception test opposed by the network's sleaze rating plus willpower rating of the owner if PAN or whoever, if any, is currently monitoring if host network... where I need at least a tie - in which case I will 'see' the entire network including all the 'nodes' or 'devices' or 'access points' being part of the network).
But I am also also assuming that I cannot 'see' a specific file stored inside a host (in the sense that I can't hash check it, disarm its data bomb, crack its protection nor copy it) unless i first gain at least user access on the network and that I also (in addition) spend the required minor action in order to actually enter the host.
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Yeah, the continued existence of the "Enter Host" concept muddies things. I'm fine with the idea of "you can't even see icons defended by the host before you enter the host". I'm also fine with "Hosts are just PANs run by special master 'devices'", but the latter being the case begs the question of what's the point of entering a host then.
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Actually it's even more simple than that really ... if you can "see" thecicon for the device you can hack it. In otherwords you can data spike (or use any action requiring outsider access) anything anywhere ... as long as you can detect it. Want to do something that requires user or admin access then hack the network it belongs to first to gain access.
So stuff inside a host is just like anything inside of PAN ... a network is a network is a network... the defining "attribute" is can you detect it?
But the rules say you can’t see icons with a host without entering the host. So you can’t data spike something inside a host without entering it, right?
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It depends on the host.
Some host have icon that are publically visible and require no further action to interact with.
Then entering a host can vary depending on it's security settings. A semi public host may have outsider level (though unlikely but I can see some host like chatrooms and such being in this range) where all you have to do is use the minor action "Enter Host". Then you have host with tighter security that requires User or Asmin access before you can enter.
It might help of you think of the enter host action as logging in to a website. Some are super easy where you setup your own user ID and password, some require authentication, and some can only be given by the sysadmin for the website.