Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: FastJack on <12-17-19/2340:15>
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Per Geek Native (https://www.geeknative.com/) and DriveThruRPG (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/) Shadowrun has been the best-selling "other" (not D&D/Pathfinder) setting for 2019 and has three books in the top 10 Sci-Fi genre, including #3 for 6th Edition Core Rulebook.
The Other Best Selling Fantasy RPGs of 2019 (https://www.geeknative.com/70017/the-other-best-selling-fantasy-rpgs-of-2019/)
Best Selling Sci-Fi RPGs of 2019 (https://www.geeknative.com/70052/the-best-selling-sci-fi-rpgs-of-2019/)
The don't publish the actual sales data, but have worked with DriveThruRPG previously to get the accurate totals. Definitions of the genres are based on how the company (i.e. Catalyst Game Labs) tags the products. The first list only takes into account the setting, while the second looks at individual books.
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What was #1?
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What was #1?
Cyberpunk Red
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I know that the anti-6e people have been posting about 6e's sales #'s on DriveThruRPG lately and this is most likely aimed at them, but I really don't see anything good coming out of this thread other then more arguing. :'(
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Not sure if this is good news or not? I would expect Shadowrun to be up there with the top sellers, but now they're seeing competition, particularly in the Sci-Fi group. I'd be very surprised if they didn't completely dominate 2018 outside of D&D and Pathfinder.
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Kinda makes you wonder what twisted, arcane, and/or imaginary math DriveThruRPG uses for this list...
First, Second, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth place (at least) are Platinum Best Sellers.
(SR6 Core, Changeling the Lost 2nd, L5R Emerald Empire, Dragon Blooded, and WFRPG 4th respectively)
Third place (Monty Cook's Invisible Sun) is only a Gold Best Seller.
So it is clear that "units sold" is not the criteria used, and others on the list might have sold more than SR6th.
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I know that the anti-6e people have been posting about 6e's sales #'s on DriveThruRPG lately and this is most likely aimed at them, but I really don't see anything good coming out of this thread other then more arguing. :'(
For what it is worth, I'm not anti-6e. My more positive posts on 6E just get downvoted into oblivion.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/ec8w15/shadowrun_6e_is_best_selling_other_fantasy_rpgtop/
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For what it is worth, I'm not anti-6e. My more positive posts on 6E just get downvoted into oblivion.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/ec8w15/shadowrun_6e_is_best_selling_other_fantasy_rpgtop/
you have to understand- if your facts and numbers dont match my opinions, they are wrong :( /s
Reddit's fond of shooting the messenger. I wouldn't worry too much about the internet points- if you really want them, just make the argle bargle joke that has been made on every single 6e thread since August and still gets upvoted... I've given up on anything productive coming out of that sub. False things like "errata hasn't been added to the PDF" get upvoted because it matches what people feel should be true, and misinformation continues to spread.
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Kinda makes you wonder what twisted, arcane, and/or imaginary math DriveThruRPG uses for this list...
First, Second, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth place (at least) are Platinum Best Sellers.
(SR6 Core, Changeling the Lost 2nd, L5R Emerald Empire, Dragon Blooded, and WFRPG 4th respectively)
Third place (Monty Cook's Invisible Sun) is only a Gold Best Seller.
So it is clear that "units sold" is not the criteria used, and others on the list might have sold more than SR6th.
Crazy math really. They looked at the sales for 2019 only. I know, that's just weird.
Sorry, thought you were looking at the second list. The first list is for setting, and Monte Cook's Invisible Sun setting has 9 books out. (Invisible Sun (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/4952/Monte-Cook-Games/subcategory/9452_31856/Invisible-Sun))
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For what it is worth, I'm not anti-6e. My more positive posts on 6E just get downvoted into oblivion.
It's not you, people just don't like 6e.
Reddit users treat the up/down vote like a popularity indicator; what you're seeing is dislike for CGL, their product and their business practices.
Burn people enough and they tend to turn on you.
That's what CGL is experiencing.
Don't take it personally and keep posting your stuff, people read it.
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Reddit's fond of shooting the messenger. I wouldn't worry too much about the internet points- if you really want them, just make the argle bargle joke that has been made on every single 6e thread since August and still gets upvoted... I've given up on anything productive coming out of that sub. False things like "errata hasn't been added to the PDF" get upvoted because it matches what people feel should be true, and misinformation continues to spread.
I know that reddit (and most other places on the internet that aren't these forums) are really negative about 6e, but I think you're misrepresenting their criticism about the errata. While you're correct there was a day one ten page errata document that was incorporated in the pdf, the reddit shadowrun community put together a thread with things that errata document missed. Currently its at something like 250+ items that need to be fixed, some of them gamebreaking, so when they say that the errata hasn't been incorporated or even addressed, I feel like they're right.
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There's a few items that could be considered gamebreaking only if a GM was incapable of making a decision, since these things aren't 'it's missing and we haven't got a clue', but more 'it's missing and there's like two options'. So yes, there's flaws, but I don't think 'I'm not sure if this rulecall will remain correct in the future' can be considered gamebreaking. It'd be different if there was a gap so big no judgment call could be made whatsoever.
As for what that errata document 'missed', that is a misrepresentation of what that errata document was: A HOTFIX meant to address straight-up rule contradictions. Already then the list of known items was bigger, but it was a matter of priority. As such, 'missed' is a label not matching the actual situation. 'Prioritised to make sure the game is playable on launch', where a handful of items didn't get covered, is a more accurate description of what that errata was. To claim the hotfix team, errata team and demo agents, which all worked hard on putting together a list, just missed 250+ items, is far from nice towards them. If you want to know something that actually get missed, 'you die at 0 Essence' is probably one so there are in fact things we all missed back then, but I bet you that approximately 99% of those 250+ items were in fact already covered and are currently being reviewed fix-wise, if they're in fact something needing fixing.
Now I agree that I would like transparancy from JM Hardy on the current state and intent of the errata process, since a far greater list than the Hotfix is currently in a review state. But claiming the Reddit community, where a moderator deliberately leaked a PDF code despite their anti-piracy rule (which Reddit members upvoted and commented on, yet nobody spoke out against) and where the moderators explicitly refused to act on any anti-piracy requests, forcing DMCA requests instead, is right about things? Yeah no. They don't deserve being defended.
Plus none of that changes that apparently they lie about the hotfix errata not being present in the PDF. That in itself shows just how reliable their mob mentality is: To actively advocate, promote and defend fake news, while they make sure to bash SR6 wherever they can in an attempt (as several people have in fact explicitly admitted) to ruin SR6 so that CGL will drop the franchise, is not something anyone considering themselves a fan or a decent human would engage in. I am far from surprised that the people who chose to severely violate their NDAs are primarily active on Reddit. It's a shame that they chose toxicity, but given that they made that choice willingly, I'm just going to consider them part of the toxic past and I will look at the future instead.
Which reminds me, I still have a few statblocks to write and a dozen archetypes to make legal printouts of with HLO. And I need to rewrite a few legwork blocks. See you around, y'all.
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Michael Chandra your comments misrepresent the reddit mods actions, the communities actions and assuming your referring to me my actions.
The undeniable actions of CGL with their continued horrific product quality, terrible customer service, laughing at their kickstarter backers in europe and still having an fraudster at the helm of their company is what's driving the upset by the majority of the community at them.
6e's horrific rules fail on publish with what was obviously a rush-job with poor, insular playtesting is what's driving the disappointment at 6e.
Everyone wanted a better Shadowrun that improved on 5e, almost no one wanted the dumpster fire that 6e turned out to be.
You can scream at reddit as much as you like but it's the largest srun community and it's been burned by CGL too many times.
That's all 100% on CGL and how it treats it customers and still treats its customer (check out the thread on this very forum re: "i havent gotten my CGL books months later").
My lack of posting on this forum is out of respect for the mods here and the folks on this forum i have had great interactions with over the years. However I won't let you spew your lies about me and reddit without response.
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...but I really don't see anything good coming out of this thread other then more arguing. :'(
You weren't wrong, imthedci. You weren't wrong...
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However I won't let you spew your lies about me and reddit without response.
let's be fair to chandra some of those lies were spewed by me
In all seriousness, there is misinformation/warped perspectives from many of the "involved parties." Which one is "worse" would probably be pointless, but I'd hardly characterize reddit as a factual and unbiased source. Similar to this forum, the conversations on reddit that folks have the most emotional involvement in will rise to the top, and these days "anger and frustration" seem to be the emotions surrounding 6e (Whether these are directed at the system, its creators, or the community vary by person).
I personally don't want to deal with that subreddit at the moment. Pretty much everyone on that sub was perfectly fine with someone's PII (A freelancer, not an employee) being blasted in the open, and everyone criticizing their personal houserule. This was later rectified, but not by a mod. This wasn't a case of mods being asleep at the time either, as one of them had posted in the thread before the change was made. Maybe I'm taking this too seriously, or maybe the sub got dangerously close to a harassment campaign on the guy's Facebook (Again, paranoia on my part). Either way, obviously not the type of forum for me, since either I'm too sensitive for it, or it's too vitriolic for me.
This thread isn't really about that incident, or even about the subreddit. The point I'm trying to make is that there isn't really an "unbiased/factual" source out there for information on folks' opinion of 6e. I think it's interesting that 6e is still doing so well- SR is a popular IP, and even if it's not doing as well in sales as previous editions, it's still doing a lot better than other systems out there. Based on this, I anticipate that once the online community settles down (Or migrates one more...), folks can get back to discussing shadowrun.
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Since thud thread had already been hijacked and became about reddit, let me say this... it is the most toxic of all SR communities that I've ever been involved with and that includes the old dumpshock days. As a fan since 1st edition I've been involved with Shadowrun st every step of it's long life. I've been a player, a GM, a demo agent and as of 6E a freelancer. On reddit however I've personally been dismissed, misquoted, unwelcomed, and personally attacked ... and not by any single person but many of its members. Even though there are a few good ones and the occasional halfway decent bit of information I refuse to partake of that environment in any shape or form these days.
EDIT: adzling ... just so you know I'm not calling you out. You've attacked my work and we disagree about many things but you personally have never attacked or offended me directly... but others on reddit have.
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Well, at least we can say Shadowrun fans are passionate....
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deeply held opinions aren't likely to change. Time will tell whether the r/Shadowrun folks are prescient or grognards. My bet is that they'll prove to be the latter, but of course I don't know the future future any better than they do. I just have a different prediction (or dare I say, hope) than they do. As a longtime "There is no BattleTech after 3025" grognard, I can totally get the sentiment about hating the new stuff aimed at "the kiddies playing my game". I even "quit" Shadowrun when 4e was unveiled for many of the same reasons given today about what people don't like about 6we. I mean no slight or insult to people who'd rather play older editions of Shadowrun: you do you. There just comes a point where it doesn't do any good to rage against the game changing, and sooner or later each 6we hater will realize it and stop harping about it when someone brings up a 6we question/post. Most of/the most vocal on r/Shadowrun seem to have not gotten there yet, is all.
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Funny, I've had to go to dumpshock for civil discourse instead of here. I ask mostly Lore question luckily instead of rules. Also as a reddit user I find passionate people but very few toxic situations, but I admit some may be a bit blunt. As with most forums, ignore the threads that don't suit you.
As for Catalyst, I find more reasons to abandon them that poor quality writing. Their treatment of their fans, especially the older editions. We never got errata for 5th. That and the fact that they refuse to pay freelancers or artists on time, and in some cases ever is another sore spot to me.
I've walked away form them. My Shadowrun game will stay in 5th or transition to the GURPS conversion my group has been working on.
They will not get one cent more from me, which I hate to say, but they have really left me no choice. I love the world to much to participate in this travesty.
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Since thud thread had already been hijacked and became about reddit, let me say this... it is the most toxic of all SR communities that I've ever been involved with and that includes the old dumpshock days. As a fan since 1st edition I've been involved with Shadowrun st every step of it's long life. I've been a player, a GM, a demo agent and as of 6E a freelancer. On reddit however I've personally been dismissed, misquoted, unwelcomed, and personally attacked ... and not by any single person but many of its members. Even though there are a few good ones and the occasional halfway decent bit of information I refuse to partake of that environment in any shape or form these days.
EDIT: adzling ... just so you know I'm not calling you out. You've attacked my work and we disagree about many things but you personally have never attacked or offended me directly... but others on reddit have.
I can see what you're saying and the problem imho is that folks confuse freelancers with CGL personage.
The fans feel abused by CGL and unfortunately that carries over to the freelancers.
I've personally tried to tell people to distinguish between the two but mostly to no avail.
Although I hate 6e with a passion I don't blame it on you personally, you're just one part of the mix and don't have the last say.
I place that blame elsewhere in CGL, both for the quality of product (or lack thereof) and treatment of customers.
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Since thud thread had already been hijacked and became about reddit, let me say this... it is the most toxic of all SR communities that I've ever been involved with and that includes the old dumpshock days. As a fan since 1st edition I've been involved with Shadowrun st every step of it's long life. I've been a player, a GM, a demo agent and as of 6E a freelancer. On reddit however I've personally been dismissed, misquoted, unwelcomed, and personally attacked ... and not by any single person but many of its members. Even though there are a few good ones and the occasional halfway decent bit of information I refuse to partake of that environment in any shape or form these days.
EDIT: adzling ... just so you know I'm not calling you out. You've attacked my work and we disagree about many things but you personally have never attacked or offended me directly... but others on reddit have.
To be fair, as long as I can remember things between reddit and the freelancers have never been great, though neither have things betweeen dumpshock and the freelancers since 4e either (sensing a trend here). Neither side is blameless. I definitely remember during the freelancer houserule debacle that Ob is talking about, the freelancer in question absolutely blew up on a poster who was new to shadowrun and didn't know whether or not posts made by freelancers counted as errata. When someone politely tried to point this out to him, he doubled down and started going at the person who tried to help him.
At this point its probably best of reddit and freelancers don't interact, which is a shame since reddit is arguably the biggest online shadowrun community. Then again so was dumpshock once so....
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When the other two are basically a teaster-system and something based on Genesys, 3rd place isn't exactly great tbh.
I'm curious to see how the sales of the first few 6e splats will fare compared to those of the first few 5e books after CRB.