Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: skalchemist on <02-06-20/1257:28>
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I asked this in the middle of another thread, and in hindsight that was a bad choice, because it will get lost in the shuffle and is off topic. So I will ask here.
The Full Defense action says (in the latest PDF of the rules): A character can add their Willpower to all De-
fense tests until their next combat round.
Does that mean...
* until their next turn (regardless of which round it is on)?
* until their next turn on the next combat round?
* until the start of the next round/end of current round?
* until the end of the next combat round?
* something else?
I don't think the first bullet can possible be right; that would conceivably force a participant in the middle of the initiative order in the round to have to use Full Defense twice in a round (which ain't easy since it is a Major Action). The 2nd bullet or 3rd bullets seem like the most likely meaning, but because actions refresh at the start of each round (not turn) the difference is very important.
EDIT: I feel certain this has been answered before, but as usual the search function just turns up a bunch of questions pertaining to previous editions.
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It's unfortunate wording. Round and Turn are two distinct concepts. Everyone has their respective turns take place inside the same, shared combat round.
Because the wording says "their", it's my unofficial belief that round and turn got erroneously conflated. I believe it should say "turn". That interpretation also neatly answers timing questions, as well.
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No it's an anytime action so it should say "until start of the next round" ... which is when initiative resets
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Heh, that's two different answers! :D
At least I know I'm not just misreading it.
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Tiny hijack to point out that for some reason Full Matrix Defense only covers you for the next attack. Which seems... weirdly inconsistent with how the meatspace version works. And comparatively underpowered, given it's also a Major action.
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Tiny hijack to point out that for some reason Full Matrix Defense only covers you for the next attack. Which seems... weirdly inconsistent with how the meatspace version works. And comparatively underpowered, given it's also a Major action.
That was submitted for errata but may end up in the FAQ ... it is supposed to work the same as the physical Full Defense
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it is supposed to work the same as the physical Full Defense
I thought as much and wrote as much in my matrix houserules :) From nothing more than a consistency point of view, it's pretty jarring!
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No it's an anytime action so it should say "until start of the next round" ... which is when initiative resets
Is there any practical difference between "end of this round" and "start of the next round" in terms of timing? I can't think of any, but the way you phrased this compared to the book frequently using "end of" terminology makes me wonder if there is something subtle I am missing.
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Toxin effects go off at the end of combat rounds, so that already can make a difference.
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No it's an anytime action so it should say "until start of the next round" ... which is when initiative resets
Little confusing. NPC A goes first, PC B goes second, NPC C goes third. B can spend a Major action during A's turn, then take whatever leftover actions at their turn, and still get full defense when C acts.
I'm betting plenty of Players/GMs will end the Full Defense Benefits at the beginning of B's turn, and give C a clean shot. Or force B to spend multiple Major Actions on Full Defense.
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No it's an anytime action so it should say "until start of the next round" ... which is when initiative resets
Little confusing. NPC A goes first, PC B goes second, NPC C goes third. B can spend a Major action during A's turn, then take whatever leftover actions at their turn, and still get full defense when C acts.
I'm betting plenty of Players/GMs will end the Full Defense Benefits at the beginning of B's turn, and give C a clean shot. Or force B to spend multiple Major Actions on Full Defense.
This seems like the worst of all possible worlds to me, Hobbes. Like, here are possible ways it could work, given your example (B uses Full defense on A's turn):
* lasts until next turn - B is protected only against A's attack. They will have to use Full Defense again against C (and won't have a Major Action for it unless they have at least 4 minors). Its like they are getting "half" value for the action.
* lasts until the start of your turn on the next round (I think this is what SSDR was suggesting) - B is protected against A's attack, C's attack, and ALSO A's attack on the next round. Its like they are getting "one and a half" value for the action.
* lasts until the end of the current round (or start of next round) - B is protected against both A and C's attack on this round. This seems like "full" value for the action, to me.
(now, if actions refreshed for each person on their TURN, not at the start of each round, I think what you are saying would make perfect sense. That would be an equally valid way to set up the system, I guess, that's essentially the way D&D 5E works, for example.)
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Little confusing. NPC A goes first, PC B goes second, NPC C goes third. B can spend a Major action during A's turn, then take whatever leftover actions at their turn, and still get full defense when C acts.
I'm betting plenty of Players/GMs will end the Full Defense Benefits at the beginning of B's turn, and give C a clean shot. Or force B to spend multiple Major Actions on Full Defense.
To my mind, this starts to make FD look like pretty poor value. It’s a Major action - likely at least half your action economy - to add your Willpower to your defence; maybe 3-5 dice for a combat character. That’s already a pretty steep price before you start getting draconian about how long it lasts for.
Also, is it me, or does 6e not have an Agile Defender quality to buff Full Defence?
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Also, is it me, or does 6e not have an Agile Defender quality to buff Full Defence?
No, but neither did 5e until you got into beyond-CRB contexts.
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I can't think of one good reason, in this system's limited action economy on an action that will take 1 of your 2 possible maximum attacks, that it should not last until the beginning of your next turn in the following combat round from whenever you took it.
Using Hobbe's example of A, B, and C, on combat round 1 A shoots at B. B uses full defense. A misses. B has only minor actions left and moves. C shoots at B, also missing. Combat round 2, A shoots again. On B's turn full defense benefits now end before he decides what to do with his actions.
I feel particularly strongly about this interpretation, because if you are taking anything less than 4 attacks directed at your per turn (which is very likely, due to grunt grouping), then you are flat wasting precious actions vs. just dodging once or twice.
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No it's an anytime action so it should say "until start of the next round" ... which is when initiative resets
Is there any practical difference between "end of this round" and "start of the next round" in terms of timing? I can't think of any, but the way you phrased this compared to the book frequently using "end of" terminology makes me wonder if there is something subtle I am missing.
Not really... and actually that level of minutiae is what we tried to avoid with 6E and makes all that more frustrating when want to get into that level of detail
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No it's an anytime action so it should say "until start of the next round" ... which is when initiative resets
Little confusing. NPC A goes first, PC B goes second, NPC C goes third. B can spend a Major action during A's turn, then take whatever leftover actions at their turn, and still get full defense when C acts.
I'm betting plenty of Players/GMs will end the Full Defense Benefits at the beginning of B's turn, and give C a clean shot. Or force B to spend multiple Major Actions on Full Defense.
The whole point of it being an Anytime Major Action is so they don't have to spend multiple actions on defense.
So since actions reset at the beginning of the round they either last for the entire round (major) or for just a single instance (minor).
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The whole point of it being an Anytime Major Action is so they don't have to spend multiple actions on defense.
So since actions reset at the beginning of the round they either last for the entire round (major) or for just a single instance (minor).
I am not sure that distinction is explicitly made?
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To my understanding (I think I asked something similar before), the action economy resets globally at the top of the Round for all characters. That's because if you did get attacked before your new Turn in the new Round, you could just opt to go back on Full Defense as an Anytime Action. However, if you were never attacked before your turn, then it's a moot point. Top of the Round makes sense in context of the Anytime Action.