Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: MercilessMing on <03-18-20/1923:05>
-
Need to make sure my understanding of Multiple attacks and Full Auto are correct:
Multiple attacks - action is on pg 42:
A character can attack more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it. Split your dice pool evenly among all targets, or if you are using two different forms of attack, use half the dice pool for each, rounded down. This action must be used in conjunction with an Attack Major Action.
Multiple attacks - further explanation on 111:
Whether it’s shooting a bunch of bullets at multiple people, throwing shuriken at a marauding group, or using a sword in each hand, there may be times you want to deliver multiple attacks at once. This can be against multiple targets, or you could attempt two attacks against the same target. Whatever the case, to make multiple attacks, divide your attacking dice pool by the number of attacks made as evenly as possible, then make the rolls. If you are making two different kinds of attack (like, say, a gun in one hand, a knife in the other) divide each of your normal dice pools by two, rounded down. Defenders will defend as normal; if the multiple attacks are made against a single target, they only have to roll once, and their hits will be compared to all of the attacker’s rolls to determine success.
The way I read this, I think I can declare multiple SS attacks against one target or multiple targets, splitting my dice pool, essentially duplicating a FA attack, without paying the -6 AR penalty a FA attack would give me. And I can do this with more powerful weapons, like emptying the cylinder of a super warhawk into a target. There's also no mention of firing mode limitation. So I can do this same thing but with BF, spending 40 ammo on 10 bursts as long as I had the ammo available. Is that a sound reading of the rules?
Of course the caveat to that is that splitting a dicepool so many times is never a good idea, it will probably make everything miss and incur a glitch at least, if not a critical glitch. With that in mind, what good is FA, ever (outside of anticipation)? Multiple attacks is only ever good against 3-4 targets max, due to low dice pool numbers.
-
If you attack with an SS gun, you fire a single round. Multiple Attacks does not note it overrides that. So no, I see no support for your interpretation. Note that fire modes explicitly state when they support Multiple Attacks on firing a lot of times.
Addendum: Under the logic that you can just fire a lot of times, you're ALSO claiming you could wield a katana and attack 16x in a single second.
-
Full auto let's you multi attack without spending the multi attack sction
-
Addendum: Under the logic that you can just fire a lot of times, you're ALSO claiming you could wield a katana and attack 16x in a single second.
I don't see a rule that says you can't, so wouldn't that be up to the GM?
Also, it looks to me like the multiple attack minor action does not let you attack the same target more than once. It doesn't say you can't but refers to splitting dice between multiple targets. FA specifically says you can and the combat options reference does as well but the latter makes no mention of the minor action, FA or the edge action.
-
There's a conflict as to whether Multiple Attacks lets you make multiple attacks that affect the same target. And that rules conflict awaits official clarification. But it's my personal opinion that the rules for multiple attacks given on pg 42 are the primary reference, and that citation doesn't permit multiple attacks on one target. By extension, the language on page 111 that says you CAN make multiple attacks on one target is therefore in conflict and incorrect.
By my understanding:
Multiple Attacks only permits you to attack multiple targets, with by RAW no limit on the number of attacks possible (although the GM can and should impose sanity, like you can't attack more targets than bullets you fire, and etc)
Full Auto lets you perform the a "Multiple Attacks-like" action without spending the Minor to actually perform a Multiple Attacks. This not only saves on action economy, it also is the only way you CAN attack one target multiple times in the same attack.
Anticipation only works while you're spending the Multiple Attacks minor action (see pg. 47) so it's incompatible with the "Multiple Attacks-like" option FA offers. Which, in turn, means you can't use Anticipation while you're shooting one guy X number of times.
-
Also, Anticipation works on TARGETS, not on ATTACKS, so it wouldn't help to begin with when attacking the same person twice.
-
By my understanding:
Multiple Attacks only permits you to attack multiple targets, with by RAW no limit on the number of attacks possible (although the GM can and should impose sanity, like you can't attack more targets than bullets you fire, and etc)
Full Auto lets you perform the a "Multiple Attacks-like" action without spending the Minor to actually perform a Multiple Attacks. This not only saves on action economy, it also is the only way you CAN attack one target multiple times in the same attack.
Thanks for the reply. What do you think about firing modes when it comes to multiple attack? I read the rules as: any attack you make can be a multiple attack if you spend the minor action. There’s no mention that multiple attacks always use base damage, so we should be able to take advantage of firing modes when making multiple attacks.
That makes Full Auto the worst multi attack option: standard damage, terrible AR, and no Anticipation option. Saving a minor isn’t enough to redeem it.
-
...What do you think about firing modes when it comes to multiple attack?...
That's a problematic rules interaction that hasn't been untangled.
Let's lay out some groundwork before I tell you my opinion:
SS: the default attack that incurs no AR/DV modifiers. Costs 1 bullet.
SA: you expend 2 bullets, and get -2AR but +1DV. Costs 2 bullets.
BF: you can do a narrow burst or a wide burst. Either option costs 4 bullets.
---BF Narrow Burst: -4 AR, +2 DV.
---BF Wide Burst: two SA shots
FA: -6 AR, but you get an "improved" version of Multiple Attacks that 1) costs no minor action and 2) can layer multiple attacks on individual targets. Costs 10 bullets.
Now, onto the problems. Indeed, what happens if you do a Multiple Attack to target 2 people with a SA attack? You're either getting -2AR, +1DV per 1 bullet spent on two targets, or you're spending 2 bullets per target to get those modifications. So, the former option can't be right: SS establishes that you get NO AR/DV modifications if you sink 1 bullet into the attack (on that target). The latter sounds better, right? Surely a SA mode gun that can go BAMBAM can also go BAMBAM, BAMBAM, right? Well, Multiple Attacks doesn't limit you to 2 attacks. You could theoretically attack as many NPCs as you have dice in the dice pool. And, if you're planning on spending edge on Anticipation, you just might. So let's say you're shooting 10 people with SA bursts. The former assumption makes the lulzy argument that you're somehow shooting 10 people with 2 bullets, and the latter says your SA gun is pumping out 20 bullets at twice the maximum rate of fire of a fragging fully automatic weapon!
It gets worse when you look at BF and Multiple Attacks.
The BF Narrow Burst is "clearly" just a scaled up SA attack. Twice the bullets expended for twice the AR penalty and twice the DV bonus. Everything I just said about SA and multiple attacks is twice as egregious here. But even beyond doubling the egregiousness, is the existence of the Wide Burst, which explicitly is just two SA attacks that have to be assigned to two targets. It's a weaker version of Multiple Attacks, which is fine... but what happens when you Multiple Attack with a Wide Burst?. We're dividing by Zero here.
And of course you already pointed out the irrelevance of FA if other firing modes can just freely crank out 20-40 bullets per combat round.
So, what's my opinion?
1) That the firing modes and multiple attacks rules are parallel mechanics that aren't meant stack with each other. You want to attack multiple people with a gun? You're "supposed" to use BF Wide Bursts or FA attacks, and those rules give you your parameters.
2) If that's too unfun, and you do combine Multiple Attacks with firearms: then you throw out the firing mode rules, other than the # of bullets you expend. Resolve AR* and DV at the SS firing mode level for that gun, and cap the number of targets you may attack at the number of bullets expended at the firing mode you're using.
*edit: on second thought, probably ought to keep the AR penalty that corresponds with the firing mode bullet expenditure. Otherwise you're making recoil-ignoring multiple attacks, which probably shouldn't be a thing. But absolutely 100% no DV bonus if combining Firing Mode with Multiple Attacks.
Edit #2: I can see multiple attacks and firing mode rules actually interacting if you're using two guns at the same time.
-
As an aside, we found this whole interaction of multiple attacks and firing modes so confusing that we essentially rewrote the whole thing. We got rid of the "multiple attack" minor action and instead just defined a few different types of attack actions:
* Careful Fire: 1 major action. only possible in SS/SA/BF firing modes. You target one enemy with a firearm.
* Rapid Fire: 1 Major action and 1 minor action. only possible in SS/SA/BF. You target one or two enemies with a firearm. Split your dice pool evenly into two packets. Assign these packets to either two targets that are close to each other, or a single target. (Note that in the case of SA mode, you are actually firing four rounds in quick succession by spamming the trigger, and in BF you are firing 8 rounds with two trigger pulls)
* Wide Burst: 1 Major action. only possible in BF firing mode. You target two enemies with a firearm that are fairly close to each other with a single trigger pull. This does NOT require a minor action. Attack rating is only at -2 but Damage Rating is only at +1 against each target. You must split your dice pool evenly between the two targets.
* Spray: 1 Major action. only possible in FA firing mode. You fill an area (roughly the size of a room) with a volume of fire, firing 10 rounds, or empty the weapons magazine as long as at least 6 rounds are left. Divide your dice pool evenly among any number of targets in that area, as long as each target is assigned at least one die. No damage rating change. This does NOT require a minor action.
* Melee Attack: 1 major action. attack a single target in melee. This can be done with a melee weapon or just your fists/kicks/elbows/whatever. This works exactly like the Attack Action on page 42. Cannot be combined with grappling, use the rules on page 111 for that.
* Go Crazy: 1 major action plus 1 minor action per extra target attacked. Attack any number of targets within melee range of you. Divide your dice pool between the number of targets evenly, rounding down. Otherwise attack rating and damage is the same as for a single Melee Attack. (note, the “per extra target” really is a change from the existing rules). The targets have to be close to each other to use Go Crazy; you only have 3 seconds per combat round. Cannot be combined with Grappling. Use the rules on page 111 for that, and Grappling can only target one opponent.
* Punch to the face/shot to the head: 1 Major and 1 Minor action. You can fire at a target in your current firing mode, and attack either the same target or a different target in melee range with your fists/knees/melee weapon as well. The dice pool for both attacks is divided by two. You use the worse of the attack ratings of the attacks. The firearm attack attack rating and damage are modified by firing mode. Note that this can be done even if the firearm is a two handed weapon (e.g. an assault rifle); you are kicking, rifle butting, or whatever to do the melee attack; treat the unarmed attack as “off-hand”.
These rules mean that you can only attack more than two targets with either Spray (full auto firearms) or Go Crazy (in melee). It also means you can't fire two (or more) wide bursts or full autos or whatever; 3 seconds just isn't a lot of time, right?
-
With SS you attack just once. Multiple attack minor action is not used.
With SA you double tap the trigger while still aiming at the same target (which is resolved as one single attack even though you are actually firing two bullets at the target). Multiple attack minor action is not used.
With BF you either double tap while aiming at the same target (narrow burst, which is resolved as one single attack even though you are actually firing four bullets at the target). Multiple attack minor action is not used.
Or you aim at one target as you pull the trigger once and then aim at a second target as you pull the trigger a second time (wide burst, which is resolved as two separate SA attacks). Multiple attack minor action is used (which mean you can combine it with anticipation if you have the edge to spend).
With FA you attack multiple times (against multiple targets or the same target). The attack uses 10 bullets so you can't attack more times than that. Multiple attack minor action is not used, but you still split the dice pool between the attacks.
If you dual wield you can attack with both weapons at the same time (either two separate targets or the same target twice). Multiple attack minor action is used (which mean you can combine it with anticipation if both your weapons are firearms, you are aiming at different targets and you have the edge to spend).
Indeed, what happens if you do a Multiple Attack to target 2 people with a SA attack?
By RAW this is not allowed, but feel free to use this house rule:
SA firing mode
You fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger pulls. Decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon by 2 and increase damage by 1, or split your dice pool between two targets and count each as a SS-mode shot. You may also fire just one round with one trigger pull, counting the attack as a SS-mode shot.
Well, Multiple Attacks doesn't limit you to 2 attacks.
If there are only 2 opponents then how can you attack more than twice?
If you only tap the trigger twice then how can you attack more than twice?
If you only have 2 dice in your pool then how can you attack more than twice?
-
Xenon, I think your points are perfectly reasonable as house rules, but I don't think they can be claimed to be rules as written. For example, how can you say you cannot use multiple attacks with SA mode? I can't find that prohibition anywhere.
EDIT: your quoted text doesn't appear anywhere in my rules: this is what is in my rule pdf:
"SA: You fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger pulls. Decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon by 2 and increase damage by 1."
The phrase "you may also fire" is not anywhere in the rules pdf.
-
Xenon, I think your points are perfectly reasonable as house rules
Please point out where it goes against RAW.
how can you say you cannot use multiple attacks with SA mode?
Please point out where it says you can.
(I provided you with a perfectly good house rule that will allow you to do it).
your quoted text doesn't appear anywhere in my rules
What part of "feel free to use this house rule" was unclear?
None of the italic text in that quote can be found in the book.
If it was then it would not be much of a house rule, would it?
Indeed, what happens if you do a Multiple Attack to target 2 people with a SA attack?
By RAW this is not allowed, but feel free to use this house rule
Here is the post i copied it from:
https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29993.msg524173#msg524173
-
First Xenon, sorry I misunderstood what you were saying, that's my bad. I didn't connect up the sentence about house rules to the quote for some reason. Poor reading comprehension skills most likely. Mea culpa.
As to the "show me where it says you can" I guess my reply would be "show me where it says you can't" and we could go round and round. The Multiple Attack action text (pg 42) only says...
Multiple Attacks (I)
A character can attack more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it. Split your dice pool evenly among all targets, or if you are using two different forms of attack, use half the dice pool for each, rounded down. This action must be used in conjunction with an Attack Major Action.
The text on page 111 doesn't put any limits other than GM judgement (and even that only loosely stated) on this capability.
Multiple Attacks
Whether it’s shooting a bunch of bullets at multiple people, throwing shuriken at a marauding group, or using a sword in each hand, there may be times you want to deliver multiple attacks at once. This can be against multiple targets, or you could attempt two attacks against the same target. Whatever the case, to make multiple attacks, divide your attacking dice pool by the number of attacks made as evenly as possible, then make
the rolls. If you are making two different kinds of attack (like, say, a gun in one hand, a knife in the other) divide each of your normal dice pools by two, rounded down. Defenders will defend as normal; if the multiple attacks are made against a single target, they only have to roll once, and their hits will be compared to all of the attacker’s rolls to determine success.
The only other mentions of multiple attack are on the Anticipation section and in the full auto description. To my mind, those two sections above seem to be saying pretty clearly you can use multiple attacks with pretty much anything ("shooting a bunch of bullets...throwing shuriken...sword in each hand"). Now, I don't personally LIKE that, and think it causes problems pretty quickly with the firing mode rules as has been already described in this thread. But there is certainly no prohibition at all about using multiple attacks with any firing mode other than, maybe, full auto and the multiple attack says it can be used with attack major actions.
-
The Attack action on p. 42 mostly just describe that it is a major initiative action but that details can be found in the combat chapter.
Firing modes in the combat chapter describe all the ways you can use the different firing modes. The wide burst attack is the only firearm attack you explicitly get to combine with the multiple attack actions. No other firing mode explicitly tell us that it will be combined with a multiple attack action which mean you cannot combine it with any other firing mode. Just because it doesn't say you can't combine it does not automatically mean you can combine it.
Personally I think it stand to reason that you should also be able to combine it with a SA firing mode (hence my suggested house rule), but as written it don't.
Multiple attacks on p 111 describe how you split the dice pool whenever you for example shoot a bunch of bullets at multiple people but also when you attack the same target multiple times (the mechanic seem to be used for the wide burst attack, the full auto attack but also attacks taken while dual wielding a combination of firearms, melee weapons and throwing weapons).
The multiple attacks action on p. 42 mostly just describe that it is a minor initiative action that must be taken together with an attack major action. It also state the obvious that you need to have enough ammo and line of sight to your targets etc. The action seem to be used together with the wide burst attack or when dual wielding a combination of firearms, melee weapons and throwing weapons; but it does not make anything explicit or put any limitations in the action itself (as there might be other weapon type rules or action rules or firing mode rules in later books; but following Shadowrun rule structure they will explicitly list whenever you may combine them with the multiple attacks action)
In SR5 max number of targets were limited to your weapon skill / 2 and the multiple attacks free action could explicitly be combined with SA Burst (as long as the 3 targets were within medium range), Long BF (as long as the 2 targets were within medium range), multiple readied throwing weapons (as long as the targets were within medium range), melee attack from a single melee weapon (as long as all target where within reach), spell casting (when attempting to cast multiple spells at once) as well when dual wielding two weapons (firearm(s) and/or melee weapon(s)).
The only other mentions of multiple attack are on the Anticipation section and in the full auto description.
The only attacks that currently take use of the multiple attacks minor action are Wide burst (firing modes chapter; two separate targets) and when dual wielding (offhand chapter; either two separate targets or two attacks on the same target).
Full auto also use the multiple attacks mechanics, but it does not use the multiple attack minor action. This attack seem to let you attack the same target more then twice and it also seem to let you attack more than two different opponents (if you wish).
Anticipation require a ranged action, a multiple attacks minor action and 4 edge (it does not seem as if full auto trigger the multiple attacks minor action).
-
You and I are reading this text completely differently, so much so that only one of us can be right, I think. But it doesn't have to be me! So I'll just leave it there and let it go.
-
To be fair, rules in the 6E are less than crisp and even though there are fewer rules in 6E there still seem to be a rather high number of rules that are ambiguous and can be read in more than one way.
But even though a lot of text have been cut out, which at times could make them harder to understand, they are also largely still based upon the rules from 5th edition (and the rules structure used in editions before that). And it is also not uncommon that you need to bounce rules from two-three different places before you get the full picture. Also, just because it doesn't say you can't do it does not mean you automatically can do it.
The only thing that is crystal clear is that you take the multiple attack minor action with wide burst. Almost everything beyond that point can be debated, I guess...
(but since I have not found any contradicting rules with my reading and since I have also not found any strange side-effects from my reading I will probably stick with it - unless perhaps we get some official clarification).
Having said that, I am pretty confident that you are not allowed to spend 40 ammo in one action, as OP claims ;)
-
Having said that, I am pretty confident that you are not allowed to spend 40 ammo in one action, as OP claims ;)
And to be clear, it's not that I want to be able to do that, I'm trying to figure out the intention of the rules so I can make some informed decisions at home. It does seem from the words they chose for multi attack that it wasn't supposed to be limited to splitting a burst and full auto mode. It was written much more generically than that. And I don't think it needs to be limited much in order to be balanced, because splitting the dice pool is self-limiting. Just gotta decide on a limit for the sake of Anticipation, and then make full auto not terrible.
-
Having said that, I am pretty confident that you are not allowed to spend 40 ammo in one action, as OP claims ;)
And to be clear, it's not that I want to be able to do that, I'm trying to figure out the intention of the rules so I can make some informed decisions at home. It does seem from the words they chose for multi attack that it wasn't supposed to be limited to splitting a burst and full auto mode. It was written much more generically than that. And I don't think it needs to be limited much in order to be balanced, because splitting the dice pool is self-limiting. Just gotta decide on a limit for the sake of Anticipation, and then make full auto not terrible.
Easiest thing I can suggest is consider that Multiple Attacks only works with guns when you're using 2 guns. If you want to attack more than one person while using one rapid fire gun, use the firing mode rules instead.
-
Having said that, I am pretty confident that you are not allowed to spend 40 ammo in one action, as OP claims ;)
It was written much more generically than that. And I don't think it needs to be limited much in order to be balanced....
Multiple Attacks just explain how you resolve it IF you are eligible to take it. Actions themselves need to explicitly mention that you are allowed to combine it with the Multiple Attacks Minor Action. It was the same in 5th edition. Just because an action does not restrict you from using multiple attacks does not automatically mean you can combine it with multiple attacks.
In 6E you are eligible to take the Multiple Attacks Minor Action when you use Wide Burst (attacking two different targets). If you have 4 edge you are also eligible to take Anticipation with this action. This part is clear and not under debate at all. BF in 5th edition also explicitly mentioned that you were allowed to take the Multiple Attack Free Action (but your two targets had to be within medium range).
It seem as if you are also eligible to take the Multiple Attacks Minor Action when you dual wield (attacking two different targets or the same target twice). This can be debated, but Multiple Attacks in relation to dual wield is mentioned in the Off-Hand Attacks section on p. 110 and it is also again referenced in the Multiple Attacks section on pl 111.
If you also have 4 edge, wield 2 firearms and attack two different targets rather than the same target once you are also eligible to take Anticipation while dual wielding (but if you are not ambidextrous you will still split the pool for your offhand).
In addition to this you can also Multiple Attack (but without using a Multiple Attack Minor Action) if you are using Full Auto (attacking multiple targets or the same target by splitting the pool). This part is clear and not under debate at all. This is a change from 5th edition that instead had rules for suppressive fire when using FA firing mode (sort of a frontal AoE cone that attacked both friend and foe).
Note that Multiple Attacks seem to limit this use to either "multiple targets, or you could attempt two attacks against the same target" (which I read as you may only split the pool twice when attacking the same target) and the number of attacks also seem to be restricted to if "ammunition ... allow it" (which I read as if you may only split your pool a maximum of 10 times when attacking multiple targets).
Since you are not using the Multiple Attack Minor Action you are also not eligible for Anticipation.
Unlike 5th edition, Semi Automatic attacks *don't* mention anything about taking the Multiple Attack Minor Action. *Nor* does throwing weapons (Athletics). *Or* Melee (Close Combat). In 5th edition you could use SA to fire on up to 3 different targets as long as they were within medium range. Hence why I proposed a house rule to allow you to fire at two different targets if you are using SA mode.
To take the Multiple Attack Minor Action with throwing weapons or melee weapons it seem as if you need to dual wield (attacking two different targets within reach or the same target twice). In 5th edition they explicitly mentioned that you could take the Multiple Attacks free action.
Having said that, rules as written in 6E are less than crisp and you can probably argue that they can be read in more than one way. But the above reading is the one that makes most sense (especially when comparing the rules in 6E with how they worked in 5th edition).
Also, alternative reading quickly get super crazy (like being eligible to take Anticipation with Full Auto to attack 10 times or even 20 times while dual wielding). There are also no examples that suggest that this is legal. That the outcome seem highly unlikely and there is no supporting examples is often indicators that you are not reading the rules correctly....
But it is your table. Your rules. If you wish to rule that you are allowed to fire 40 bullets with BF mode then you can do that. There is no Shadowrun rule-police that will pin you to the wall if you do. However, you might want to make this reading clear to your players so they are aware.
-
Multiple Attacks just explain how you resolve it IF you are eligible to take it. Actions themselves need to explicitly mention that you are allowed to combine it with the Multiple Attacks Minor Action. It was the same in 5th edition. Just because an action does not restrict you from using multiple attacks does not automatically mean you can combine it with multiple attacks.
In 6E you are eligible to take the Multiple Attacks Minor Action when you use Wide Burst (attacking two different targets). If you have 4 edge you are also eligible to take Anticipation with this action. This part is clear and not under debate at all. BF in 5th edition also explicitly mentioned that you were allowed to take the Multiple Attack Free Action (but your two targets had to be within medium range).
I simply don't agree with your "explicit permission" interpretation of all this. That isn't stated anywhere, and a plain reading of the multiple attack rules to me makes it clear that you can do it pretty much on any attack. (EDIT: as an aside, I totally agree that this "gets super crazy" if taken to its logical conclusion.) I don't think this "permission" element is supported by the text. (That being said, we've already established that my attention to detail is not great...)
Or rather, I think it is a way to approach the text. Its a hermaneutic approach, which is appropriate since the 6E rules themselves often make the biblical text seem clear, concise, and easily understood! ;D You are coming at things from the perspective of "if it is not specifically allowed, it is disallowed", I think. If that is your assumption, than I can see why you would say what you are saying. But that is not my assumption. I don't think your reading makes the most sense, as you suggest, but I also don't want to suggest that your reading makes no sense, either. Especially now that I have gone back and looked at some sections (like that section on page 109 on firing modes), I can see much more sense in your interpretation than I did at first. I can see your logic, I just don't agree with where it leads.
Specifically on wide burst, though I went and checked and I'll be damned, it really is even more murky than I thought it was. I now see where you are coming from on that. The distinction on page 109 between how burst fire is described and how full auto is described certainly implies that you need to use a Multiple Attack action with wide burst, otherwise why specify you didn't need to use it for full auto?
I think really the issue is that these rules are just incomprehensible on their own terms. They do not explain themselves, so we have no choice but to interpret them locally based on whatever theories and assumptions we think best. So to contradict myself given the first sentence of this post, Xenon, I don't think you are wrong. I just think your way of looking at it is only one of many possible ways to look at it, (as you yourself state) since the text itself can't actually answer the question.
As an aside, I'm very happy so far playing Shadowrun 6E, its been fun, but I find this sort of thing inexcusible. Writing clear rules on how actions work and which ones apply when is NOT HARD. Plenty of rulebooks do a pretty good job of it with systems that are not much less complicated than Shadowrun 6E. We shouldn't HAVE to have discussions that are akin to theologians discussing the meaning of the Babel story or the parable of the talents. A rulebook is not an ancient sacred text.
-
You are coming at things from the perspective of "if it is not specifically allowed, it is disallowed", I think.
That's pretty much the basis of RAW arguments. Otherwise:
Player "I can Fly"
GM "What?"
Player "It doesn't say I can't, so I can Fly!"
GM "......"
RAW arguments typically view rules as enabling what can be done. So, yes, if it's not specifically allowed, you can't do it. At least when it comes to ticky-tacky rules interactions. Clearly players can open a can of soup even though there are not explicit rules to cover "can opening".
-
You are coming at things from the perspective of "if it is not specifically allowed, it is disallowed", I think.
That's pretty much the basis of RAW arguments. Otherwise:
Player "I can Fly"
GM "What?"
Player "It doesn't say I can't, so I can Fly!"
GM "......"
RAW arguments typically view rules as enabling what can be done. So, yes, if it's not specifically allowed, you can't do it. At least when it comes to ticky-tacky rules interactions. Clearly players can open a can of soup even though there are not explicit rules to cover "can opening".
That isn't quite what I would consider the alternative, Hobbes. Its not "if the rules don't disallow it, its allowed", exactly. Its more, "if one rule seems to allow it, another rule has to specifically disallow it". In this specific case, I feel that the multiple attack rules, if read at face value, indicate you use an minor action and can attack an extra target. They don't have any caveats, which they could have easily had, like they could say "where specifically allowed elsewhere in the rules, spend a minor action..." So unless something elsewhere says that is not true, its the baseline to start from.
Edit: I just went and read them again, and I am even more convinced of this. The sections on page 42 and 111 are describing an overarching rule. There are precious few caveats in them, and certainly no caveats with respect to any other specific rules, such as firing mode. So from my perspective, this is the rule; if this is not the case the text needs to specifically state it (as it does with full auto).
I agree completely that leads to ALL KINDS OF CRAZINESS elsewhere, like Burst Firing five guys at once with Anticipation or some such. So it has to have some local house rule control of some sort, I think. But in my opinion you have a broad overarching rule here, in a nutshell "a minor action lets you attack an extra target".
-
Multi-attack has limits though. Number of bullets, clear targets, reach of melee weapons, all subject to GM call. And Full Auto fire mode has separate rules from Multi-attack as it doesn't require the Minor Action, so it's arguably it's own deal.
-
Multi-attack has limits though. Number of bullets, clear targets, reach of melee weapons, all subject to GM call. And Full Auto fire mode has separate rules from Multi-attack as it doesn't require the Minor Action, so it's arguably it's own deal.
Oh, I agree completely, Hobbes. I'm not saying it is limitless, and apologize if that was my suggestion. But that is really what I am getting at. There is a general rule. The rules put some fictional limits on its use, "fictional" in this case meaning "stuff that the GM has to agree is happening in the fiction of the game for you to use the rule." But I can't find any hint of what I think Xenon is suggesting is the case, that this rule only applies in certain narrow rule-defined situations like Off Hand Attacks and Burst Fire firing mode. I have misinterpreted you before, Xenon, so I apologize in advance if I am doing so again.
To state my hermanuetic more clearly, I think Xenon is using...
* If it is not specifically allowed, it is is disallowed.
Mine would be...
* it is is allowed generally, it has to be disallowed specifically.
Those two are not actually contradictory. Its all in the word "generally".
To rephrase your example...
Player: I can fly!
GM: what?
Player: the rule says "I can generate effects with wind and air that can lift weights and move things about". I am lifting my own weight and moving myself about. Sure, the word "fly" is not in that sentence, but clearly I am a weight that can be moved about!
GM: well...crap. There goes my whole plotline. Wish I had noticed that.
-
Multi-attack has limits though. Number of bullets, clear targets, reach of melee weapons, all subject to GM call. And Full Auto fire mode has separate rules from Multi-attack as it doesn't require the Minor Action, so it's arguably it's own deal.
Yep. Not that it matters for English speakers (or maybe it does...) the German language CRB changed the Wide Burst to also say it does not require the expenditure of the Multiple attacks action, in the same way as FA doesn't require it.
Again, I think the best way to reconcile the two seperate sets of rules governing "attacking more than one person at a time" is to just say you don't use both sets of rules at the same time (unless you're dual wielding burst fire guns).
-
Multi-attack has limits though. Number of bullets, clear targets, reach of melee weapons, all subject to GM call. And Full Auto fire mode has separate rules from Multi-attack as it doesn't require the Minor Action, so it's arguably it's own deal.
Yep. Not that it matters for English speakers (or maybe it does...) the German language CRB changed the Wide Burst to also say it does not require the expenditure of the Multiple attacks action, in the same way as FA doesn't require it.
THATS where I got that idea from! I now remember seeing that in one of those summaries of changes in the German language edition and then thought it had made its way into the English language version for some reason.
-
Multi-attack has limits though. Number of bullets, clear targets, reach of melee weapons, all subject to GM call. And Full Auto fire mode has separate rules from Multi-attack as it doesn't require the Minor Action, so it's arguably it's own deal.
Yep. Not that it matters for English speakers (or maybe it does...) the German language CRB changed the Wide Burst to also say it does not require the expenditure of the Multiple attacks action, in the same way as FA doesn't require it.
THATS where I got that idea from! I now remember seeing that in one of those summaries of changes in the German language edition and then thought it had made its way into the English language version for some reason.
Indeed. I take this all to mean that you "don't have to" spend the minor action, because you actually May Not combine Wide Bursts with Multiple Attacks.
-
Right, by my count there are four separate rules for attacking multiple targets. Wide Burst, Full Auto, and the Multi-attack action which is in the book twice, and worded differently in each place. Then you have Edge Actions like Anticipate, and the Minor Action Called Shot that all theoretically could be used with those Attacks. Because my Rigger has 5 Edge, +4d6 initiative, and quad-linked HMGs on his Bulldog and wants to destroy a modest sized commercial structure RIGHT NOW!
Presumably, the FAQ document will clear some of the rules interactions but there are arguably different ways to read them.
-
If you also have 4 edge, wield 2 firearms and attack two different targets rather than the same target once you are also eligible to take Anticipation while dual wielding (but if you are not ambidextrous you will still split the pool for your offhand).
You may want to look at that again; the way I read it, splitting your dice pool is a multiple attack penalty, not an off-hand penalty. Making a regular attack with your off-hand doesn't split your dice pool. Ambidextrous shouldn't have an effect on it.
Unlike 5th edition, Semi Automatic attacks *don't* mention anything about taking the Multiple Attack Minor Action. *Nor* does throwing weapons (Athletics). *Or* Melee (Close Combat).
I don't see burst fire mention anything about the Multiple Attack Minor Action either. In fact, what's your basis for saying that wide burst fire definitely, no question, needs to use the minor action? My basis would be that all multiple attacks need to use the minor action unless they explicitly say otherwise. However your interpretation seems to be that only specific examples of multiple attacks are valid multiple attacks. That leaves BF, FA, and two-weapon fighting. That's a super narrow interpretation. But I understand you like to try to find what the book explicitly allows and houserule the rest.
-
Your offhand attack, while dual wielding two firearms and attacking with both of them at the same time or if using a single firearm for a wide burst attack, cannot benefit from anticipation because anticipation is an edge action. To earn or spend edge with your offhand you need to be ambidextrous.
As for your other question:
It is clear that wide burst is used to attack two targets.
The general blanket rule when attacking two targets is that you spend a minor multiple attacks action.
Wide burst need to explicitly mention that it does not use the multiple attack minor action or else it will follow the general blanket rule.
Full auto does explicitly mention that the minor action is not used. Wide burst does not.
Many rules in Shadowrun (any edition) follow the exact same patten.
-
Your offhand attack, while dual wielding two firearms and attacking with both of them at the same time or if using a single firearm for a wide burst attack, cannot benefit from anticipation because anticipation is an edge action. To earn or spend edge with your offhand you need to be ambidextrous.
Ah right good point.