Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Redwulfe on <03-28-20/1741:44>
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so I have looked through the book and can not find anything that says the that base listed stats include the modifiers for fire mode or equipment listed in the item's description.
I selected the Ares Predator for example and the DV is 3p, modes are SA/BF and AR is 10/10/8/-/-.
This comes with a smartgun system so it seems that this would then make the AR 12/12/10/-/-.
The gun fires in SA standard so i would think that is would then become DV 4p and AR 10/10/8/-/-.
All of this seems fine to me. I much prefer to keep track off all of these things myself rather than the book adding in some and not others.
Since previous editions added in some of the modifiers for you and not others I looked for the text to clarify and my question is: Is their clarification in the Text?
If not I am going to just run it as if it is all separate and the stat-lines always list the base stats.
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Lasersight is explicitly noted to be included in AR ratings (p260). Ergo, everything else isn't. (Incidentally, a lot of people go with 'any SA gun can be fired single-shot'.)
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Thanks, it is good to know that I am not missing something.
Also the firing in SS with a SA weapon makes since to me, so i will be using that as well.
Cheers
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It was mentioned in the quick start rules that weapon stat blocks never list Single Shot mode, it's always assumed.
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Rather than always double tapping the trigger in SA mode (or spending a minor action to change from SA firing mode to SS firing mode) it make sense, at least to me, that instead of double tapping the trigger in SA mode you are allowed to also just pull the trigger once - while still in SA firing mode.
Hence why I suggested the following house rule in the sticky house rule thread above:
SA firing mode
You fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger pulls. Decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon by 2 and increase damage by 1, or split your dice pool between two targets and count each as a SS-mode shot. You may also fire just one round with one trigger pull, counting the attack as a SS-mode shot.
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I stll think targeting two people with a double-tap would be too complicated, though. So I wouldn't allow that part at my table.
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I stll think targeting two people with a double-tap would be too complicated, though. So I wouldn't allow that part at my table.
You are allowed to do that exact same thing if your weapon is in Burst Firing mode....... ;-)
Wide burst (Burst Firing mode):
Aim at one target, pull the trigger once. Automatically fire a burst of 2 bullets at the first target.
Aim at a second target, pull the trigger a second time. Automatically fire a burst of 2 bullets at the second target.
My house rule (Semi Automatic firing mode):
Aim at one target, pull the trigger once. Fire 1 bullet at the first target.
Aim at a second target, pull the trigger a second time. Fire 1 bullet at the second target.
Note that in 5th edition you were even allowed to fire at three different targets if you were in SA mode.
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Wide burst (Burst Firing mode):
Aim at one target, pull the trigger once. Automatically fire a burst of 2 bullets at the first target.
Aim at a second target, pull the trigger a second time. Automatically fire a burst of 2 bullets at the second target.
False.
BF: Youve got a fancy gun that pumps out multiple
rounds with a single trigger pull. You can fire
four rounds in an attack. You can shoot a narrow
burst, which decreases the Attack Rating by 4 and
increases damage by 2, or make a wide burst and
split your dice pool between two targets and count
each as a SA-mode shot.
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The fact that your weapon automatically fire more than one bullet each time you pull its trigger does not automatically mean that you are not also pulling the trigger more than once.
When you pull the trigger of a burst fire weapon it will automatically spit out more than one bullet and all the bullets in this short burst will automatically hit the general area of one single target. The delay between individual bullets within a single burst is very short (roughly 0.07 seconds or so).
In SR5 this was 3 bullets each time you pulled the trigger, for a total of 6 bullets over a Complex Action.
During a Complex Action you had the option to either aim at one target and pull the trigger twice (which would automatically fire two bursts of 3 bullets each against the same target, which would be resolved as a single attack of 6 bullets) OR you aim at one target, pull the trigger once (which would automatically fire a burst of 3 bullets against that target, which would be resolved as a single attack of 6 bullets - which, btw, was also how you would resolve a semi automatic attack of 3 individual bullets against a single target) and then aim at a second target and pull the trigger a second time (which would automatically fire a burst of 3 bullets against that target as well) but when doing this you would also have to spend a Free Multiple Attacks Free Action and split your dice pool. Unlike when using suppressive fire (which basically resolved as a narrow frontal cone area of effect attack that hit both friend and foe) the targets during this attack can be up to 180 degrees apart and there can also be friendly targets in between (which make sense since you after all are firing two individual bursts against two individual targets).
In 6E this is 2 bullets each time you pull the trigger, for a total of 4 bullets over a Major Action.
During a Major action you have the option to either aim at one target and pull the trigger twice (which would automatically fire two bursts of 2 bullets each against the same target, which is resolved as a single attack of 4 bullets). This is what the book named Narrow Burst. OR you aim at one target, pull the trigger once (which will automatically fire a burst of 2 bullets against that target, which is resolved as a single attack with 2 bullets just as when you double tap a target using Semi Automatic firing mode) and then aim at a second target an pull the trigger a second time (which would automatically fire a burst of 2 bullets against that target as well) but when doing this you will also spend a Minor Multiple Attacks Action and split your dice pool. The targets can be 180 degrees apart and there can also be friendly targets in between (which is of course only possible if you are actually firing two individual bursts). This is what the book named Wide Burst.
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When doing a wide burst with burst fire it says count each as an SA-mode shot. Does this mean gas vents gets rid of the full AR penalty?
I am assuming it shouldn't since your are still firing in BF. maybe should be in the FAQ.
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Everything involving firing modes is FAQ worthy, yes :(
But personally I'd say that yes, Wide Bursts is in effect giving you two SA bursts. And therefore things that modify SA bursts will apply. Although I can see an argument counter to this saying "in effect 2 SA bursts is not the same thing as two SA bursts". So, YMMV.
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5E is irrelevant because they changed the system. I see no reason to allow SA mode to attack multiple people. BF is fine for that.
As for modifiers: I'd consider it a bit too OP to apply a bonus twice, I'd split the AR penalty over the attacks myself.
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5E is irrelevant because they changed the system. I see no reason to allow SA mode to attack multiple people. BF is fine for that.
As a vast majority of the rules in 6E are based upon mechanics from the 5th edition I don't agree that it is irrelevant to compare the two. Especially when it comes to the burst firing mode (it is basically resolved identically between the two editions).
Aiming at one target and pulling the trigger and then aiming at another target and then pulling the trigger a second time would, if anything, be easier if your weapon was in SA compared to if it was in BF (if only one of the two firing modes was to allow hitting two different targets it should probably be SA rather than BF).
This behavior was actually reflected quite well in 5th edition (allowed to shoot three different targets with SA and only two different targets with BF).
As for modifiers: I'd consider it a bit too OP to apply a bonus twice, I'd split the AR penalty over the attacks myself.
When attacking multiple targets you only compare your Attack Rating once (against the target that have the highest Defense Rating).
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5E is irrelevant because they changed the system. I see no reason to allow SA mode to attack multiple people. BF is fine for that.
As a vast majority of the rules in 6E are based upon mechanics from the 5th edition I don't agree that it is irrelevant to compare the two.
We fall back to SR5 when a clarification is missing. Not when SR6 rules are VERY explicit. How SR5 did things is irrelevant when a mechanic received a significant overhaul, as long as SR6 is clear.
SR6 says SA attack is a double-pull, -AR, +DMG. It also says BF mode fires multiple bullets with a single pull, and uses 4 bullets to either do a narrow burst on 1 target, or a wide burst on 2. The only problem we're running into, is that CRB has left out what happens if you pull the trigger once in SA mode, which would be a perfectly reasonable action to do since if you pull the trigger twice, you can pull it once instead. But the rest is explicit. And that means there's no reason to look at SR5, where you could do 1 bullet per person with all available burst-attacks, since SR6 works differently by design.
As for modifiers: I'd consider it a bit too OP to apply a bonus twice, I'd split the AR penalty over the attacks myself.
When attacking multiple targets you only compare your Attack Rating once (against the target that have the highest Defense Rating).
Yet the AR-penalty is effectively split over the two attacks, since a wide burst is handled as 2 -2AR/+1DMG attacks. So that leaves the question on how to handle weapon modifications. You're still firing it in BF mode, so I'd still go with 'your gear modifications look at the firing mode (BF in this case), and you split their AR-penalty-reduction over the two attacks, just like how you're effectively splitting the AR penalty and damage bonus over the two attacks'.
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Michael, are you seriously suggesting that you pull the trigger once, wait until bullet #1 and #2 automatically left the muzzle before you swing the gun 180 degrees and align it with a second target (in less than 0.07 seconds!!) before bullet #3 and #4 automatically leave the muzzle - with no risk at all of hitting any other target in between...?
I would love to see a video clip of that ;-)
The only way that you can realistically hit two different targets (that can be 180 degrees and hundreds of meters apart) in the context of the rules as they are written is if the gun is actually just firing 2 bullets each time you pull the trigger.
For narrow burst you pull the trigger twice for a burst of 4 bullets and for wide burst you aim at one target, pull the trigger once (resolved as one SA burst of 2 bullets), then you spend that extra minor action to quickly realign your aim to a second distinct target and then you pull the trigger a second time (resolved as another SA burst of 2 bullets).
This is well supported by the rules as written (and also similar to how Long Burst was resolved in SR5).
In order for wide burst to make sense if you actually fire 4 bullets when you pull the trigger once (but now we are talking true 'spray n pray' rather than aiming at two different distinct targets) is if...
...either both targets get additional restrictions
(for example: "Must be within 2 meters of each other with no other targets (friend or foe) in between")
...or perhaps that you treat it as a true frontal cone AoE attack that have a chance to hit both friend and foe
(for example: "A triangular area projecting from the shooting character outward up to a distance of his choosing with a width of 2 meters at its end and a height of 1 meter").
Either way you would need to create house rules if you rule that it automatically spit out 4 bullets each time you pull the trigger (which is an indication that you either read the rules incorrectly - or perhaps that the rule as written is incorrect and is currently subject of errata).
It also says BF mode fires multiple bullets with a single pull, and uses 4 bullets to either do a narrow burst on 1 target, or a wide burst on 2.
While book mention that burst fire automatically fire more than one bullet each time you pull the trigger and that an attack in burst firing mode will always consume a total of 4 bullets, the book does not mention if you pull the trigger once or twice or if each trigger pull automatically fire 2 or 4 bullets. Both readings are within the context of the rules as they are written.
The only difference is that one reading explain how you can realistically hit two different distinct targets that are 180 degrees and hundreds of meters apart, while the other does not.
For what it's worth; If Wide Burst (as currently written) had not been an option then I would have agreed with you that a weapon in BF mode automatically spit out 4 bullets each time you pull the trigger.
Yet the AR-penalty is effectively split over the two attacks, since a wide burst is handled as 2 -2AR/+1DMG attacks.
I am pretty sure RAI is that firing in Burst Firing mode (Narrow Burst or Wide Burst) reduce your Attack Rating by 4 (since you have to handle the recoil of 4 bullets) and for Wide Burst you then compare your Attack Rating with the highest Defense Rating of the two targets. This would also be more clean and a lot less confusing when you later also mix in things that provide recoil compensation.
But because of wording, your Attack Rating is currently reduced by 4 when firing your 4 bullets at one target, but only reduced by 2 when you fire your 4 bullets against two different distinct targets. It does not make sense that your attack rating should be reduced less when attacking two targets (as with burst firing mode you still need to manage the recoil of 4 bullets rather than 2 bullets as if you used a semi automatic weapon to double tap a single target). But I agree with you that this is RAW (subject for errata?)
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I think the two rounds per trigger pull makes since. The paragraph is not clear.
The first sentence makes since by itself you get multiple rounds with a single trigger pull. Then the second sentence says you can fire 4 rounds in an attack. The assumption is that multiple = 4. and that makes sense until you look at wide burst and then if the target are 180 degrees fro you which is possible it no longer makes since that you are firing 4 bullets on a single pull at those two targets. TBH I don't think it needs to makes since but it doesn't.
If you replace the word multiple with two then the first sentence makes since "pumps out 2 rounds with a single trigger pull" and the second sentence still makes since setting the limit of trigger pulls to two for two rounds each. Now wide burst fully makes since as you are making two trigger pulls at 2 rounds each which is basically two SA attacks.
I think the problem is that we assume that Multiple = 4 not that multiple actually = 2.
This now makes Burst fire make more sense and yes it does look similar to 5e which is irrelevant but does show the roots of the firing mode.
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The assumption is that multiple = 4. and that makes sense until you look at wide burst and then if the target are 180 degrees fro you which is possible it no longer makes since that you are firing 4 bullets on a single pull at those two targets.
In that case your GM can say 'enemy placement does not allow you to target both'.
Multiple Attacks (I)
A character can attack more than one opponent,
assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy
placement allow it.
Given how SA mode explicitly states 2 trigger pulls, but BF mode only talks about a single trigger-pull, I do not see any support for 'no it's two trigger pulls even though the rules don't state so'. Not after SA mode explicitly states it. That is far too short a distance to assume such a difference is accidental. A wide burst would simply not be able to target enemies that are too far apart. If you want to do that, you should dual-wield instead.
Also, it'd be called Double-Burst, not Wide-Burst.
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In that case your GM can say 'enemy placement does not allow you to target both'.
Yes GMs can make this call, but his once again leaves the work onto the GMs which results in inconstant experiences for players especially in SRM play.
Given how SA mode explicitly states 2 trigger pulls, but BF mode only talks about a single trigger-pull, I do not see any support for 'no it's two trigger pulls even though the rules don't state so'. Not after SA mode explicitly states it. That is far too short a distance to assume such a difference is accidental. A wide burst would simply not be able to target enemies that are too far apart. If you want to do that, you should dual-wield instead.
Also, it'd be called Double-Burst, not Wide-Burst.
It doesn't say that you only pull the trigger once. It says that you "pumps out multiple rounds with a single trigger pull" The assumptions being made is that it is four rounds per pull and that it is only one pull per shot. If multiple, which can mean many different numbers, refers to two then with the second sentence it would be understood that the trigger is being pulled twice and the entire paragraph makes much more sense in all accounts.
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In that case your GM can say 'enemy placement does not allow you to target both'.
Yes GMs can make this call, but his once again leaves the work onto the GMs which results in inconstant experiences for players especially in SRM play.
Yes, Multiple Attacks leaves this up to the GM. And given how there's no formalized 'how close can they be for attack style X to be capable of hitting multiple enemies', it's either GM-leeway, unbelievable 180-degree scenarios, or completely banning it from SRM.
It doesn't say that you only pull the trigger once. It says that you "pumps out multiple rounds with a single trigger pull"
If they wanted a wide burst to be a double burst, they'd have called it a double burst or explicitly have called out that you still pulled the trigger twice. They didn't. Yet they mentioned double-pulling in the SA mode. So it sounds extremely unlikely to me that the wide burst is 2 trigger pulls. Your interpretation goes directly against the language used here. As such, I find your interpretation to make far less sense in all accounts, and your 180-degree scenario extremely unrealistic as supposedly intended. The only way a 'it might be a double-pull' argument could have made any sense, was if SA hadn't explicitly mentioned a double-pull.
And if we're going to go back to SR5 again: SR5 explicitly noted a Long Burst was pulling the trigger twice in BF-mode. So a Burst, whether narrow or wide, was 1 pull. And the explicit double-pull is not mentioned in BF, but is mentioned in SA. So even if we compare SR5 language to SR6, SR6 language is different enough to eliminate any double-pull arguments.
If you want to attack 2 people that cannot possibly be covered by 1 attack: Use dualwielding. Don't go down the road of 'hey the rules may say X, but they don't say Y, so obviously !Y is perfectly fine'. The rules also don't say that you can't hit 30 people with 10 rounds, but that doesn't mean I can.
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I think we are going around in circles (which is probably a good indication on that the firing mode chapter is in need of some attention).
For me the only way the rules as written make sense is if you fire 2 bullets each time you pull the trigger and you pull the trigger twice during both a narrow burst and wide burst. The reason for this is because, as written, wide burst does not put any restrictions at all on how far apart the two targets may be and the only way you can hit two distinct targets that are far apart or without risk hitting friendly targets between your two targets is if you tap the trigger once for each target.
For me to agree that you fire 4 bullets each time you pull the trigger, wide burst need to state that the two targets need to be next to each other, perhaps maximum of 2 meters apart, and that there cannot be any other targets, not friend nor foe, in between them. This would make it clear that wide burst is actually a narrow 'spray and pray'-attack that may hit two targets if they are close enough - rather than two different double-tap attacks against two different distinct targets that lack restrictions when it comes to their positioning (as it is currently written).
A wide burst would simply not be able to target enemies that are too far apart.
This rule is missing. Which is my whole point.
While I disagree that RAW put limitations on how far apart the two targets can be I do agree with you that this is likely RAI
(and hopefully wide burst will be corrected / changed / clarified to properly reflect this in the near future).
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Suggested house rule:
Semi-Automatic:
In this firing mode you may fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger pulls against a single target which will decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon by 2 and increase damage by 1, or fire just one round with one trigger pull, in which case there are no changes to a weapon's attributes.
Burst Firing:
You’ve got a fancy gun that pumps out multiple rounds with a single trigger pull. You can fire four rounds in an attack with one trigger pull. The Attack Rating in this firing mode is decreased by 4. You can shoot a narrow burst against a single target which increase damage by 2, or make a wide burst against two targets, positioned no more than 2 meters apart and with no other targets (not friend nor foe) between them, by taking the multiple attacks minor action and splitting your dice pool. Wide burst increase damage of both attacks by 1.
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Suggested house rule:
Semi-Automatic:
In this firing mode you may fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger pulls against a single target which will decrease the Attack Rating of your weapon by 2 and increase damage by 1, or fire just one round with one trigger pull, in which case there are no changes to a weapon's attributes.
Burst Firing:
Youve got a fancy gun that pumps out multiple rounds with a single trigger pull. You can fire four rounds in an attack with one trigger pull. The Attack Rating in this firing mode is decreased by 4. You can shoot a narrow burst against a single target which increase damage by 2, or make a wide burst against two targets, positioned no more than 2 meters apart and with no other targets (not friend nor foe) between them, by taking the multiple attacks minor action and splitting your dice pool. Wide burst increase damage of both attacks by 1.
+1
But most importantly, Itīs Full Auto that needs a rework. The way it works now, itīs either a total mechanical trap or (in combination with Anticipation) so obviously broken that itīs getting nerfed by any reasonable GM anyways.
Full Automatic:
In this firing mode you just spray and pay with a single trigger pull, firing 10 rounds a single trigger pull and decreasing the Attack rating by 6 due to the Recoil. You can concentrate your fire on a single target or you can split your Attack between up to 10 targets (if your Dice pool allows it), each one positioned no more than 2 meters apart and with no other targets (not friend nor foe) between them. Of course, the damage potential is bigger as well: Among all your Attacks you may also distribute up to 3 Points of Bonus damage by concentrating you more of your fire on certain targets. F.i., if you Attack 3 different targets, you may decide to hit each target for 1point of bonus damage, two targets for 2 and 1 respectively, or one juicy target for the full 3 points (Of course, if you only attack one target, you may add +3 Damage). The distribution for the bonus damage is declared before the Attack roll.
Anticipate: Add the following restriction: This Edge Action is limited to Multi-Attacks against up to 4 targets, with a maximum of 2 Attacks against each individual target.
Some additional notes:
- I can somewhat appreciate that they tried to mix up the formular with FA instead of just progressing the same way as with SA and BF, but itīs just not working out IMO. One target and +1 Damage for -2 AR, Two targets and +2 Damage for -4 AR, multiple targets and +3 Damage for -6 AR: Thatīs consistent and somewhat balanced, without FA being the odd man out.
- A 4-target limit on Anticipation would still be pretty strong, but at least itīs not "ACKCHYUALLY I could make infinite attacks against one target RAW"-strong. Let the dual-wielding gun bunnies have some fun ;)
- Also, Iīd really like to suppressive fire makes a comeback in combat supplement (especially with the lack of delayed Actions). FA firing would also be a good place for that underused Wild Die mechanic!
- And about that "positioned no more than 2 meters apart and with no other targets (not friend nor foe)" restriction Xenon suggested: Really big fan, because this would also offer the oppurtunity to re-introduce the Safe Target System Accessory with a very concrete effect that doesnīt rely too much on GM handwaving. You gotta think ahead sometimes ;)
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Anticipation and full auto
Anticipation may not be used with Full Auto firing mode
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Yeah, or that. The description of Anticipation as some kind of big-brain tactical "gotcha"-move doesnīt really pair well with Full Auto Fire anyways.
Instead, why not give FA its own special Edge use? Something with Wild Dice, for instance?
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I'm a bit surprised suppressive fire didn't make it to the CRB seeing as how the new edition's all about edge and suppression seems like an edge generation mechanic to me. Also surprised they didn't just try making FA a Spray Attack.
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Eagerly awaiting Firing Squad.