Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Eloque on <04-09-20/1040:29>
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A lone Ford Americar, with Matrix connection mind you, is standing on the street corner. My decker friend wants to hack that vehicle and open the doors.
How does he do it? Basically I can find the skills and such, but not things like firewall and all.
That Americar, it has no firewall rating. And is it always part of someones PAN, so I should use the commlink? What if the commlink got destroyed in a firefight and we want to steal that car?
I've got a few ideas, but can someone go through the steps for me?
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What edition?
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5th edition: the device rating of consumer grade goods (which sounds it it describes a Ford Americar, as opposed to being say cheap and disposable or purpose-built for police or military use...) is 2. And you sub in device rating for missing stats, ergo it'll roll 2+2 dice to resist your decker's shenanigans. (unless slaved to a device or host with a better dice pool, of course...). If all you need is to open the door (i.e. you don't plan on driving it) you only need 1 or 2 marks for the control device, depending on whether you call opening a car door a free or a simple action. If you intend to DRIVE the car after you open the door, then yes the hacker needs 3 marks.
6th edition: devices that lack D/F have 0s. However, in the specific case of vehicles/drones, you sub in Pilot in place of mental attributes, so it'll at least roll that when willpower or intuition is invoked. As with 5th edition, if the car is protected by a PAN or Host, you'll use the better dice. If all you want to do is make the car door open, you can Spoof Command with outsider access. If you want to drive the car around after you open the door, then you'll need User access.
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in 6th do cars in 2080's have Self driving Capabilities.
I thought that is what the pilot and Gridguide are for. So could you just spoof the car to go to X location? yes you are not in control of the car and it is connected to Gridguide but its still possible, correct?
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in 6th do cars in 2080's have Self driving Capabilities.
I thought that is what the pilot and Gridguide are for. So could you just spoof the car to go to X location? yes you are not in control of the car and it is connected to Gridguide but its still possible, correct?
Kind of ... spoof command only covers one action, control device would be needed for any kind of long term use
Edit: the question then is do you consider telling the autopilot to drive to address X a command that can be executed by a single action. Personally I say no, but I can see the argument for yes.
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Go to X location kinda has to be a single command. If Riggers need to use multiple Command actions to tell a drone/vehicle running on it's own Pilot for just going from A to B that really would be a big deal.
If a legitimate user was "driving" a vehicle, they'd put in the 123 Main street address and let the Grid Guide and Pilot program do the rest. Not seeing why that would be any different for someone with Hacked Access.
If the vehicle had been set to Manual operation, or Grid Guide wasn't available for a given area or some other wrinkle, then, yeah, multiple actions.
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Go to X location kinda has to be a single command. If Riggers need to use multiple Command actions to tell a drone/vehicle running on it's own Pilot for just going from A to B that really would be a big deal.
If a legitimate user was "driving" a vehicle, they'd put in the 123 Main street address and let the Grid Guide and Pilot program do the rest. Not seeing why that would be any different for someone with Hacked Access.
If the vehicle had been set to Manual operation, or Grid Guide wasn't available for a given area or some other wrinkle, then, yeah, multiple actions.
Yes, but is it a single action too? Or is it sustained control... that is the significant difference
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I'd see telling an autopilot to go to a location being a "one and done" command, and issuance via Spoof Command. In my view you only need Control Device if you're gonna remotely drive the car yourself with your own piloting skill.
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I'd see telling an autopilot to go to a location being a "one and done" command, and issuance via Spoof Command. In my view you only need Control Device if you're gonna remotely drive the car yourself with your own piloting skill.
Yep .. I can see the argument for that being very valid and depending on the situation might rule that way just for simplicity sake, but I wrote spoof command to specifically only cover one command for a single action so I would rule that even then control device is required for maintaining control or the autopilot will stop when its normal commands reset
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...I wrote spoof command to specifically only cover one command for a single action
So... "I am instructing the drone to fire one narrow burst at the Troll" ....would be a valid use of Spoof while... "I am instructing the drone to keep shooting narrow bursts at the Troll until it drops dead" ...would not?
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...I wrote spoof command to specifically only cover one command for a single action
So... "I am instructing the drone to fire one narrow burst at the Troll" ....would be a valid use of Spoof while... "I am instructing the drone to keep shooting narrow bursts at the Troll until it drops dead" ...would not?
Correct
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...I wrote spoof command to specifically only cover one command for a single action
So... "I am instructing the drone to fire one narrow burst at the Troll" ....would be a valid use of Spoof while... "I am instructing the drone to keep shooting narrow bursts at the Troll until it drops dead" ...would not?
Correct
That would imply it would take a command each turn from the Rigger to keep attacking a target. Which is different from how I've always played, could certainly be a table thing.
Using Spoof Device to issue a command to a vehicle or drone should be the same as the legitimate user issuing a single command. As "Command" is pretty loosely defined there is likely to be some variation from group to group.
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...I wrote spoof command to specifically only cover one command for a single action
So... "I am instructing the drone to fire one narrow burst at the Troll" ....would be a valid use of Spoof while... "I am instructing the drone to keep shooting narrow bursts at the Troll until it drops dead" ...would not?
Correct
That would imply it would take a command each turn from the Rigger to keep attacking a target. Which is different from how I've always played, could certainly be a table thing.
Using Spoof Device to issue a command to a vehicle or drone should be the same as the legitimate user issuing a single command. As "Command" is pretty loosely defined there is likely to be some variation from group to group.
Yeah, and it won't be game breaking and not a major issue most of the time which is why I consented to the down sizing of the action description. Originally I had another couple of paragraphs that included more detail ... specifically that it covered a single command that could be completed in a single action. That got condensed and now says a command that it executes on its next action (or something like that since I'm not currently looking at it) .. which leaves logically open to what you guys are saying.
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Aside from the game mechanics, what is the difference between spoof command and an illicit use of control device?
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Aside from the game mechanics, what is the difference between spoof command and an illicit use of control device?
Spoof is a single command, control is sustained long term control
EDIT: more specifically spoof is tricking a device into following a command while control is actually using the device directly
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That would imply it would take a command each turn from the Rigger to keep attacking a target.
Command Drone is just a minor action though.... ;-)
And if you are using a RCC then you can command several slaved drones to take the same action ("Drone #1, #3, #6 and #7 - fire one narrow burst at that Troll over there").
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Aside from the game mechanics, what is the difference between spoof command and an illicit use of control device?
Spoof is a single command, control is sustained long term control
EDIT: more specifically spoof is tricking a device into following a command while control is actually using the device directly
Couldn't control then be said to be a series of spoofed commands?
I'm kinda curious as to why there are two actions for what is more or less the same thing. Mechanically they function very differently. For instance spoof command is a major action so using it to command drones would be less practical than control device, but control device would need user or admin (cant be bothered to look up which) access.
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Aside from the game mechanics, what is the difference between spoof command and an illicit use of control device?
Spoof is a single command, control is sustained long term control
EDIT: more specifically spoof is tricking a device into following a command while control is actually using the device directly
Couldn't control then be said to be a series of spoofed commands?
I'm kinda curious as to why there are two actions for what is more or less the same thing. Mechanically they function very differently. For instance spoof command is a major action so using it to command drones would be less practical than control device, but control device would need user or admin (cant be bothered to look up which) access.
Spoof is an illegal action that doesn't require access that requires a roll every time you want to issue a command which generates OS on every hit
Control is a legal action that requires access that if gained by back door does not accumulate OS, and allows sustained use of said device without further rolls
Which works best is solely dependent on the situation and what you are set up for
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But if probe only took one action you wouldn't need spoof command cuz control device can be done illegally. And since spoof can be done in one action, and it does more or less what control does, why does probe take so long?
That's gonna be my last thought along those lines, but I appreciate the time Banshee. I sure as heck wouldn't engage with these questions.
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Aside from the game mechanics, what is the difference between spoof command and an illicit use of control device?
Spoof is a single command, control is sustained long term control
EDIT: more specifically spoof is tricking a device into following a command while control is actually using the device directly
Couldn't control then be said to be a series of spoofed commands?
I'm kinda curious as to why there are two actions for what is more or less the same thing. Mechanically they function very differently. For instance spoof command is a major action so using it to command drones would be less practical than control device, but control device would need user or admin (cant be bothered to look up which) access.
Think of the example of a drone with a weapon. Tricking the pilot into thinking it's been given an authenticated command to commence firing on a new target is Spoof Command. Drone is rolling its own dice to execute the order.
If you want to hijack control of the drone, and use your own Engineering (Gunnery) skill to directly fire the drone's gun yourself at a target, you're rolling your own skill. Can't be Spoof Command, must be Control Device.
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"Pan rifle up 26 degrees" and "shoot that guy" are both commands. I'm not wondering how the mechanics work, but rather why they work that way.
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"Pan rifle up 26 degrees" and "shoot that guy" are both commands. I'm not wondering how the mechanics work, but rather why they work that way.
What I'm getting at is an if-then evaluation.
If: the device executing your order means you have to roll a skill check for it to do so (e.g. shooting at someone, piloting a vehicle)
Then: you have to use Control Device
Else: (e.g. opening a door, ejecting a clip, these things have no skill check involved) you can use either Spoof Command OR Control Device. Spoof Command doesn't require access, but Control Device doesn't jack your OS once you DO have access. Each has pros/cons.
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How does that map onto a fictional reality?
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How does that map onto a fictional reality?
If it's a "sufficiently simple" task, it's Spoof-able. If it's NOT "sufficiently simple", then you must use sustained "remote control". And I'm suggesting the meta-measure of whether a task is "sufficiently simple" is whether the task requires a skill test to accomplish.
Banshee (the guy who literally wrote the matrix rules, btw) told you his measure is one of time. If the task takes longer than a combat round to accomplish, you must use Control Device.
Pick one rationale. Or both. Or neither. Game's not going to break if you come up with your own way to reconcile Spoof Command vs Control Device.
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Both actions take 3 seconds to perform and one of them involves pretending to be a legit user without establishing that disguise beforehand. In a sense spoof command forges temporary admin access that literally lasts 3 seconds. Considering brute force raises the alarm and probe takes at least a minute that's pretty baller.
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Spoof Command *is* awesome in this edition, due to being Outsider access.
However there are meaningful limitations on what you can make a device do via Spoof Command.
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If you want to actually remote control the drone yourself, using your own Engineering and Piloting skills and your own attributes and have the drone act on your initative - then you first need proper access on the drone / the network the drone is connected to (via either brute force if time is of the essence or a combination of probe and backdoor entry of stealth is of more important) and you need to take control of the device (via the control device action). Once this is done you are free to take any action you want with the drone for as long as you wish to remain in control of it. There are no additional hacking related tests involved from this point. This option is awesome if you wish to have prolonged access to a device (for example directly controlling a hostile drone during a whole combat scene or directly controlling a vehicle during a whole car chase scene). This is also the only option if you wish to use your own ratings rather than depending on the skill of the on board auto pilot.
If you rather give an instruction to the on board auto pilot to act on its own, using its own pilot rating and auto soft ratings and acting on its own turn or if want to quickly issue a command to a drone (or other device) without having access on the drone / the network the drone is connected to then Spoof Command is the way to go. This option is awesome if you don't have Engineering or Piloting skills of your own or if you are in a hurry to issue a single command to the drone (or a maglock or an elevator etc) without going through the trouble of first gaining access.
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Also to build on what both SSDR and Xenon have said (which are true and valid) there is also the fact that spoof is meant for the quick and dirty or unexpected tasks ... like oh crap here is a lock we didn't anticipate... spoof it to open it, you are trying to control it or gain access of any kind. No need to make any kind of prolonged hack attempt and overcome the obstacle quickly. Control device on the other hand is for actual control that is required for more complicated or skillfully task. It requires that you first gain access and actually take over the device.
In my opinion the only time this gets fuzzy is with drones and vehicles which is where everyone seems to be hanging up about why do this when you can do that? When I was writing I saw control device being used more for that sort of thing because you would want to emulate actual control, spoof comman on a drone would be more for stuff like telling it to go away or some such thing.
Maybe think of it as "mind control" powers almost ... spoof is the jedi mind trick used for simple encounters or suggestions... while control device is full on Progessor X mind control so the target is your literal puppet
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How does that map onto a fictional reality?
Imagine that you have an echo and you say "Alexa, Play Rage against the machine." and Alexa does so. That is a command issued to the pilot program(Alexa) to execute a command.
The DGI Phantom 3 is a drone used in filming in our real world. It has a remote control(RCC) like most drones and A program like Alexa(pilot program) that is capable of doing things on its own. The drone only takes commands from its remote control in either case. You can move the joysticks and it moves the way you told it to. You can also tell it to follow a specific target and it does so without you having to move it via the remote control.
Johnny hacker on the other hand want to use your Drone to follow something else though. This is where spoof and control device come in. He can hack the drone(probe/brute force) to accept commands form his remote control and then move the joysticks to make the drone move the way he wishes (Control Device) but the hacker needs to have access to do so. Or, he can send it a command like "follow this other target instead" and let the drones pilot take care of the specifics but the pilot needs to think that the command is coming from its legal remote control and that is what spoof does. it issues the command to the pilot and fools it into thinking that it cam from its legal controller which is why it doesn't need access to do. You are using the legal controllers access instead.
hopefully that made sense ad didn't muddy the waters to much.
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Wow, that exploded into answers. Thanks everyone.
So, it's 6th edition yeah. Can someone run through these steps, as an example?
- See Ford
Gain access to Ford
Open door of the Ford
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Wow, that exploded into answers. Thanks everyone.
So, it's 6th edition yeah. Can someone run through these steps, as an example?
- See Ford
Gain access to Ford
Open door of the Ford
Step 1: If you can physically see the Ford Americar, AND it's not running silent (surely a traffic violation for vehicles to be running silent), then there's no roll needed. You can Matrix Perceive the icon without any need for a Matrix Perception test.
Step 2: If all you intend to do is gain access to the interior of the car (i.e. you don't plan on driving away with it; you just want to rummage/search the interior) then you don't even need any access at all to Spoof Command.
Step 3: Roll Spoof Command to make the door open. You roll your cracking + logic vs the car's Pilot + firewall of protecting device or host.
Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.