Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: dougansf on <04-17-20/1757:53>
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I'm building a Decker in SR6 for the first time.
I'm trying to figure out what I could get to improve my Initiative dice in the Matrix.
The base Hot Sim only gets you up to 3d6 total, one away from being able to have a second action.
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For now, that's it.
More matrix init dice options will perhaps become available when the Decker book is published.
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For now, that's it.
More matrix init dice options will perhaps become available when the Decker book is published.
Well design wise the cyberjack initiative bonus is suppose to be dice and not a flat bonus. I have submitted this and honestly don't know why it was not shown that way or been errata
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3d6 is 1+3 Minor Actions, so enough to get a second Major Action.
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3d6 is 1+3 Minor Actions, so enough to get a second Major Action.
Yes, I missed that in the OP
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Do what the cool kids are doing and hack in AR and just get Wired Reflexes. 8)
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Well design wise the cyberjack initiative bonus is suppose to be dice and not a flat bonus. I have submitted this and honestly don't know why it was not shown that way or been errata
Oh wow! Provided that this also means additional Minor Actions, that alone might be just enough to put the talk about Jacks not being worth their money (and Essence) to a rest. Being able to do 2 Majors in Cold VR (or an additional Matrix Perception test in Hot VR) is huge! It also buffs VR modes back into shape, which have have been nerfed quite badly with the lost initiative Dice and the missing +2 VR bonus.
The only problem here would be that the better Jacks would get you 3 Bonus dice, which would mean that they exceed the threshold of 5 Minor actions in Hot VR.
Or do they?
Because get this: In both my versions of the english CRB (the original one and the semi-errataed one from January), the Cyberjacks in the Matrix chapter (p. 177) offer a max. +2 Init Bonus - which would fit perfectly with Banshee´s original intent - while only the ones in the gear section (p. 284) go up to +3.
And curiously, while the Cyberjacks in the Matrix chapter haven´t been changed, there has actually has been made a small change to the progression in the the Initiative Bonus column.
Progression in:
Matrix Chapter (both): 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2
Gear Capter (old): 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3
Gear Chapter (new): 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3
Which at first got me like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-zgvDSpEyg), but then I realized it: The best explanation for this weird sequence break in the newer version (BTW: Doesn´t show up in the Errata file ::)) is that someone actually started to align it with the Matrix chapter - maybe because it is still supposed to be Initiative Dice after all?! - but only changed the value for the Rating 3 Cyberjack. And then got eaten by a gorilla or something.
Anyway, that´s it for me: I go with Banshee´s original version, with the table in the Matrix chapter and an Initiative dice bonus :P
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Well design wise the cyberjack initiative bonus is suppose to be dice and not a flat bonus. I have submitted this and honestly don't know why it was not shown that way or been errata
Oh wow! Provided that this also means additional Minor Actions, that alone might be just enough to put the talk about Jacks not being worth their money (and Essence) to a rest. Being able to do 2 Majors in Cold VR (or an additional Matrix Perception test in Hot VR) is huge! It also buffs VR modes back into shape, which have have been nerfed quite badly with the lost initiative Dice and the missing +2 VR bonus.
The only problem here would be that the better Jacks would get you 3 Bonus dice, which would mean that they exceed the threshold of 5 Minor actions in Hot VR.
Or do they?
Because get this: In both my versions of the english CRB (the original one and the semi-errataed one from January), the Cyberjacks in the Matrix chapter (p. 177) offer a max. +2 Init Bonus - which would fit perfectly with Banshee´s original intent - while only the ones in the gear section (p. 284) go up to +3.
And curiously, while the Cyberjacks in the Matrix chapter haven´t been changed, there has actually has been made a small change to the progression in the the Initiative Bonus column.
Progression in:
Matrix Chapter (both): 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2
Gear Capter (old): 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3
Gear Chapter (new): 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3
Which at first got me like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-zgvDSpEyg), but then I realized it: The best explanation for this weird sequence break in the newer version (BTW: Doesn´t show up in the Errata file ::)) is that someone actually started to align it with the Matrix chapter - maybe because it is still supposed to be Initiative Dice after all?! - but only changed the value for the Rating 3 Cyberjack. And then got eaten by a gorilla or something.
Anyway, that´s it for me: I go with Banshee´s original version, with the table in the Matrix chapter and an Initiative dice bonus :P
😄😄😄😄
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3d6+2d6 still is 6 Minors, aka 1 wasted because when they upped from Xd6=>X Minors to X+1, they prolly forgot to up the limit of 5 to 6.
Since it's X+1, Jacks don't necessarily have to add extra dice since even without you can reach 2 Majors, but it would be an understandable buff.
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3d6+2d6 still is 6 Minors, aka 1 wasted because when they upped from Xd6=>X Minors to X+1, they prolly forgot to up the limit of 5 to 6.
Since it's X+1, Jacks don't necessarily have to add extra dice since even without you can reach 2 Majors, but it would be an understandable buff.
Yeah, I have my suspicions that this why ... but still that initiative boost is a big reason for the essence cost of the Cyberjacks
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3d6 is 1+3 Minor Actions, so enough to get a second Major Action.
1d6 base + 2d6 for Hot Sim = 3 Minor Actions.
So +2d6 from Cyberjacks fixes that perfectly. Thanks Banshee.
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Do what the cool kids are doing and hack in AR and just get Wired Reflexes. 8)
I figured the Synaptic Booster could apply, but not 100% certain.
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Progression in:
Matrix Chapter (both): 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2
Gear Capter (old): 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3
Gear Chapter (new): 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3
Yeah, I'd like to know which table is correct there. Especially if it's adding dice.
5d6 is Cold or Hot Sim ain't bad.
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3d6+2d6 still is 6 Minors, aka 1 wasted because when they upped from Xd6=>X Minors to X+1, they prolly forgot to up the limit of 5 to 6.
Since it's X+1, Jacks don't necessarily have to add extra dice since even without you can reach 2 Majors, but it would be an understandable buff.
I think that you technically get to have a sixth minor action IF your not going first in initiative order. Meaning that you get to use an anytime minor action.
According to page 107 0f the rule book you only loose your sixth action when you get YOUR turn:
Characters may never start a player turn
with more than 5 Minor Actions. If they
would have earned more through any circumstances,
that number is reduced to 5.
NOTE: i'm not a native english speaker, but that's how I interpret that sentence.
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3d6+2d6 still is 6 Minors, aka 1 wasted because when they upped from Xd6=>X Minors to X+1, they prolly forgot to up the limit of 5 to 6.
Since it's X+1, Jacks don't necessarily have to add extra dice since even without you can reach 2 Majors, but it would be an understandable buff.
I think that you technically get to have a sixth minor action IF your not going first in initiative order. Meaning that you get to use an anytime minor action.
According to page 107 0f the rule book you only loose your sixth action when you get YOUR turn:
Characters may never start a player turn
with more than 5 Minor Actions. If they
would have earned more through any circumstances,
that number is reduced to 5.
NOTE: i'm not a native english speaker, but that's how I interpret that sentence.
I read it the same way. No limit on the number of minor actions you can have at the start of a ROUND. But at the start of your TURN? Max 5. Got more than that? Spend some anytimes before it's your turn.
And note that trading in 4 minors for one major is NOT a thing. What you CAN do is spend 4 minors in place of spending a major. Not at all the same thing.
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3d6 is 1+3 Minor Actions, so enough to get a second Major Action.
1d6 base + 2d6 for Hot Sim = 3 Minor Actions.
Everyone have a base allotment of 1 Major and 1 Minor.
SR6 p. 40 Game Timing and Actions
The basic action allotment for each character is 1 Minor Action and 1 Major Action per combat round...
On top of that you gain 1 additional Minor for each 1D6 Initiative dice you have.
SR6 p. 40 Game Timing and Actions
....Players get 1 additional Minor Action for every Initiative Die they have.
Everyone start with 1D6 (which mean default everyone have at least a total of 1 Major and 2 Minor actions).
SR6 p. 40 Initiative
...then write how many Initiative Dice you have. You start with a default of 1; this may be increased by augmentations.
SR6 p. 179 Matrix Initiative
Matrix Initiative is handled as follows (note that the dice are in addition to the customary 1D6...
This is also supported by the Archetypes that does not have any augmentations to increase their Initiative Dice:
SR6 p. 82 Combat Mage
Initiative/Actions: 7 + D6/1 Major, 2 Minor
SR6 p. 84 Decker
Initiative/Actions: 7 + 1D6/1 Major, 2 Minor
SR6 p. 86 Rigger
Initiative/Actions: 10 + 1D6/1 Major, 2 Minor
SR6 p. 88 Street Shaman
Initiative/Actions: 5 + 1D6/1 Major, 2 Minor
SR6 p. 89 Technomancer (+SR6 Aug Errata p. 3 Technomancer)
Initiative/Actions: 8 + 1D6/1 Major, 2 Minor
AR does not add another initiative in addition to the first 1D6
This give you 1 Major and 1 Minor +1 Minor (from your 1D6) for a total of 1 Major and 2 Minor actions.
(= the default value that everyone get; which makes perfect sense since AR is when you use your meat body and your meat world initiative, including meat world initiative increasing augmentations such as Wired Reflexes etc)
SR6 p. 179 Matrix Initiative
AR Initiative: Reaction + Intuition
Cold Sim VR add another +1D6 for a total 2D6 (it also replace the Reaction Attribute to the Data Processing Attribute).
This give you 1 Major and 1 Minor +2 Minor (from your 2D6) for a total of 1 Major and 3 Minor actions.
SR6 p. 179 Matrix Initiative
VR Initiative (Cold Sim): Intuition + Data Processing + 1D6
Hot sim VR add +2D6 for a total of 3D6
This give you 1 Major and 1 Minor +3 Minor (from your 3D6) for a total of 1 Major and 4 Minor actions.
SR6 p. 179 Matrix Initiative
VR Initiative (Hot Sim): Intuition + Data Processing + 2D6
You have the option to trade 4 Minor actions to perform a Major Action.
SR6 p. 40 Game Timing and Actions
Players can trade Minor and Major Actions, using a Major Action to perform a Minor Action or using 4 Minor Actions to perform a Major Action (possibly providing an extra attack in a single player turn).
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3d6 is 1+3 Minor Actions, so enough to get a second Major Action.
1d6 base + 2d6 for Hot Sim = 3 Minor Actions.
+1 from the default Minor. Note that page 40 says "1 additional Minor Action for every Initiative Die they have", NOT for every additional die, but for every die. So if you have Xd6 Initiative, you have 1+X Minors. This also matches all the grunt statblocks: They get 1 Minor more than they have Dice.
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3d6+2d6 still is 6 Minors, aka 1 wasted because when they upped from Xd6=>X Minors to X+1, they prolly forgot to up the limit of 5 to 6.
Since it's X+1, Jacks don't necessarily have to add extra dice since even without you can reach 2 Majors, but it would be an understandable buff.
Ack, you´re right! Bah, those weird limits all over the place! As if it would make such a difference if some have access to 2 Majors and 2 Minors! +5 Initiative Dice is not even something that could be reached by most entities outside of VR!
Side note: That whole thing shouldn´t bother me that much, since I´m already using a couple of tweaks to the Initiative System:
- No Minor action limit, but a limit of Actions that can be taken in your turn in general - the point is curb lengthy action clutter, not speed demons
- 3 Points Edge-Boost to buy an additional Minor Action (max. 1 per Turn)
- Up to 2 Minor Actions can be saved up for the next turn.
You´d be surprised how much this improves Combat flow, especially the last point. PCs have this tendency to overthink and "overoptimize" their turn´s action economy, leading to annoying little lags at the table once they run out of ideas on how to waste unspent minor actions. Also, it allows unaugmented characters to get a second Attack every other round, but only if they are left unchecked and not forced to waste Minor actions on Defense and Movement. This adds tactical finesse to combat against Mooks.
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Ok here is some more insight into the sausage factory that is 6e development
The original pre errata table in the gear section was my original design... this meant that hot sim Deckers with top tier cyber jacks had a total 6d6 for initiative. I basically got my fingers smacked for that and had to dial it back so the we ended up with the table that appears in the matrix chapter. During errata the gear table was supposed to be changed to match the matrix chapter.
Initiative dice and actions - the initiative limit of 5d6 was set first and has been a thing in SR for a while as most of you know. The minor action limit was added late in the process and I'm honestly not sure of the reason, but we had play tested using the minor action rule of 1+dice all the way through development so that was a set thing and worked well. I have campaigned for and highly suggest to just remove the arbitrary minor action limit of 5 and be done with it ... as long as we still have the initiative dice limit its fine.
That should give you guys some fodder for house rule development.
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I'm fine with a limit, but it should be 6. Why? Because it means there can be options later giving people an extra Minor or two, without unlocking a third attack.
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I'm fine with a limit, but it should be 6. Why? Because it means there can be options later giving people an extra Minor or two, without unlocking a third attack.
Also the Limit for Initiative Dice is already 5, which adds up to 6 with that 1 free Minor Action.
The more Ilook at it, the more this seems like an Errata candidate. I mean, yes, it does work as it is right now. But it´s weird, likely not intendend, and prone to misconceptions (f.i. forgetteting the free Minor Action).
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Isn't the number of minor actions limited due to equipment giving you minor actions. So if someone is capped they don't get the free action to fire select and such form equipment because there is still a limit to how fast you can be.
Or is this another thing that I would need to know the intention of the writers to understand the rules.
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Isn't the number of minor actions limited due to equipment giving you minor actions. So if someone is capped they don't get the free action to fire select and such form equipment because there is still a limit to how fast you can be.
Or is this another thing that I would need to know the intention of the writers to understand the rules.
Not exactly sure what you're saying here but other than initiative enhancements there isn't any gear that just gives you extra actions. What they do is give you an action back after spending one which makes that particular action essentially free. Ever so subtle a difference since the end result is a gain of action economy it still requires the expenditure of the initial action. You still don't go over the action limit.
Or am I not understanding what you're saying?
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No it was just not clear to us.
These pieces of equipment generally say:
"You get an extra Minor Action in a turn where you change the action selection" or some such. some of them even say "Bonus Minor Action."
Now that you said that though I now know your intentions and can now also see it as giving the action to you after you spent the action I can see it as retroactively giving them back to you but it was not clear to us as we have had 0 minor actions and thought we could still fire select with the bonus action given.
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No it was just not clear to us.
These pieces of equipment generally say:
"You get an extra Minor Action in a turn where you change the action selection" or some such. some of them even say "Bonus Minor Action."
Now that you said that though I now know your intentions and can now also see it as giving the action to you after you spent the action I can see it as retroactively giving them back to you but it was not clear to us as we have had 0 minor actions and thought we could still fire select with the bonus action given.
Well I didn't write any of that section so not actually my intent
But also I think that unless I missed something too they actually say get a minor action when take action "X" ... or I have faulty memory
EDIT to add below
Gain a bonus Minor Action on a turn when you
use the Reload Smartgun or Change Device Mode
actions to eject a clip or change fire mode.
You have to use the change device mode action first then you get an action
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Yep it was on us, it just wasn't as clear as:
"You get an extra Minor Action after you change the action selection"
So we glossed right over it without a thought until now. Most games have you declare, then act. This is not one of them now, so it is just a holdover from other games. It was just assumed you declared your actions, gain the minor action, and then you are able to perform the action selection with the minor action you gained.
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Yep it was on us, it just wasn't as clear as:
"You get an extra Minor Action after you change the action selection"
So we glossed right over it without a thought until now. Most games have you declare then act. this is now not one of them so it is just holdover from other games. it was just assumed you declare gain the minor action and the are able to perform the section selection with the minor action you gained.
I went back and copied over one of the gear section... particularly I think the one you are referring to and made an edit to my last post while you were writing this one 😀
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:) that was a different one but yes. Like a said it was a reading error on my part.
That being said though it does bring up on piece of rules manipulation that I found amusing.
Both the general firearms wireless bonus gives you a bonus action when you change the fire selection and the smart link doe the same. So you get tow for one fireselction? :) lol :) bonus.
Definitely not intended and would be shut down at any table I run, but amusing.
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:) that was a different one but yes. Like a said it was a reading error on my part.
That being said though it does bring up on piece of rules manipulation that I found amusing.
Both the general firearms wireless bonus gives you a bonus action when you change the fire selection and the smart link doe the same. So you get tow for one fireselction? :) lol :) bonus.
Definitely not intended and would be shut down at any table I run, but amusing.
Huh ... yeah I hadn't caught that before. So there is a general statement about wireless firearms with a DNI that does the same thing as the wireless bonus from the smart gun system.... hmm...
1st ... is there another way to get a DNI with a firearm other than a smart gun?
2nd ... I agree I would never allow a 2 for 1
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According to the text under firearms, all guns have this:
Pg. 251
Wireless bonus: All modern firearms are considered to be wireless-equipped and come with a digital ammunition counter and an ARO that tells you the ammo type loaded. If equipped with DNI, you gain a bonus Minor Action any turn when you eject a clip (for weapons that have them) or change fire modes (on models that have more than one).
Most gun are not listed as having a smartgun system but guns like the Ares and Ingram do. Smartgun says this.
Pg. 261
Wireless bonus: You gain a +1 dice pool bonus. Gain a bonus Minor Action on a turn when you use the Reload Smartgun or Change Device Mode actions to eject a clip or change fire mode.
This means you get two minor actions, one for the firearm itself and one for the smartgun whenever you eject a clip or change the fire mode. by RAW and to me it is a bit of a stretch. Obviously not what was intended. Possible errata by just taking away the second sentence in Smartgun you no longer double up.
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Note that you have to have a minor action to begin with in order to spend the action (and then you gain a minor action back). It is not really unclear if you ask me (but I guess it could be improved).
Wired Reflexes IV give you +4D6 for a total of 5D6 initiative (or 1 major and 6 minor actions).
The limit of 5 minor actions is stupid. It just complicate things and it add no value. It should be removed (or increased to 6 minor actions to align with the maximum of 5D6 initiative dice). Having said that, depending on your reading it would be rules legal to spend 1 minor anytime action between the start of the round when actions refresh and when your turn start and you get limited to just having 5 minor actions. Still stupid though.