Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Wu Jen on <05-25-20/1100:34>
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By RAW can a Control Actions spell used on a Materialized Spirit, to override a spirits commands?
Can the controller of the Control Actions spell use it to make a spirit use one of its powers?
If the power the spirit has is Innate spell (Control Actions) could it then take control of another target?
Thanks!
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1) Can you target the spirit?
Control Actions is a Mana spell, so there's no reason you couldn't target a spirit even while it was un-materialized (assuming you're able to percieve and therefore target the spirit in astral space...)
1a) does this override the summoner's control of the spirit?
I see no reason it shouldn't. The summoner still has empathic link and can issue orders, but so long as you're sustaining Control Actions the spirit is simply unable to comply with the summoner's commands while you control it.
2) Can you make it use one of its powers?
Per the spell's description on pg 293, you use your own skills when making the target do stuff. So I would argue that you can only make the spirit do things that you can already do yourself.
3) If the spirit has Innate Spell (Control Actions) can you multiply control?
Technically, yes. Functionally, no.
Consider the way the spell works, the caster expends an action to make the target do that same action. So if you're controlling a spirit who's in turn controlling a 3rd party: you expend an action to make the spirit expend an action to control the daisy-chained target. All you're doing is adding another point of failure in controlling one target, rather than controlling 2 targets simultaneously.
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Thanks Stainless, much appreciated!
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In the realm of "well it only makes sense"... if I were running a game I might allow the summoner as well as the spirit to try to end the spell (as per universal Manipulation spells, pg 292) due to the empathic link/control.
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Control Thoughts I can seek working to make the spirit use its power due to the spirit thinking that the thought came from itself.
So an astral mage could use control actions or control thought on a spirit on the astral plane?
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It doesn't say if you can also control the thoughts of spirits and non-sapient animals etc.
I am pretty sure the intent is that in order to get a spirit to do something you need to summon it and spend a service and when it comes to animals I am pretty sure that the intent is that you control them via the control animal and control pack spells.
Please stop trying to break the game Wu Jen =)
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Bear in mind that spirits are always astrally perceiving, so they will see the control thoughts spell, even if they fail to resist it. And unlike control actions, control thoughts is compelling the target to act as if it was thinking the idea itself. Trying to turn a spirit on its summoner, for example, should flatly not even be possible via control thoughts as the spirit quite literally CANNOT decide to do this.
Spirits have alien minds. Trying to make it think in ways a metahuman mind comprehends is at best going upstream against a very strong current. If your GM would even allow it in the first place, the spirit should be getting some substantial amount of bonus dice to shake the spell off.
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Trying to turn a spirit on its summoner, for example, should flatly not even be possible via control thoughts as the spirit quite literally CANNOT decide to do this.
But could not the summoner of the spirit order the spirit to attack the summoner?
If the answer is 'yes' then I don't see why you could not have the spirit 'think' that was exactly the command given.
Sorry about all the questions, I have not played since 2nd edition. Trying to catch up.
Also if the mage casting control actions/thoughts had summoned a spirit of man with Innate (Control action/thought) they could have their spirit also use this power on another target right?
Thanks!
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Trying to turn a spirit on its summoner, for example, should flatly not even be possible via control thoughts as the spirit quite literally CANNOT decide to do this.
But could not the summoner of the spirit order the spirit to attack the summoner?
If the answer is 'yes' then I don't see why you could not have the spirit 'think' that was exactly the command given.
Sorry about all the questions, I have not played since 2nd edition. Trying to catch up.
Yes, a summoner could order the spirit to kill him. However Control Thoughts doesn't allow you to make the spirit think it's been given commands by its summoner. Even if Control Thoughts allowed you to implant false memories (which it doesn't) of being ordered by its summoner to attack its summoner, the empathic link between spirit and summoner remains unbroken and the "misunderstanding" would immediately be straightened out. I don't see any plausible way you're going to turn a spirit away from its summoner's control via Control Thoughts, sorry.
Control Actions bypasses that problem: the spirit is in full control of its faculties and is not deciding to do whatever you make it do.
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Trying to turn a spirit on its summoner, for example, should flatly not even be possible via control thoughts as the spirit quite literally CANNOT decide to do this.
But could not the summoner of the spirit order the spirit to attack the summoner?
If the answer is 'yes' then I don't see why you could not have the spirit 'think' that was exactly the command given.
Sorry about all the questions, I have not played since 2nd edition. Trying to catch up.
Yes, a summoner could order the spirit to kill him. However Control Thoughts doesn't allow you to make the spirit think it's been given commands by its summoner. Only make it think about attacking its summoner, which it very much cannot do of its own free will. So making it "decide" to do this is impossible.
Control Actions bypasses that problem: the spirit is in full control of its faculties and is not deciding to do whatever you make it do.
So influence then? To put the suggestion in its head that the command it was given was to attack him and not the true target?
That opens up another set of questions if a spirit is hit with Laes? or equivalent would it forget the command given it? Would it still have services?
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At this point I'm going to echo Xenon.
No, you're not supposed to be able to steal someone else's spirits. Just stop trying ;)
If you need a justification, I'll point to the empathic link. It remains, and can be used to countermand whatever insidious means you're employing to subvert control.
The only magic spirit hijack I can potentially see working is Control Actions, because that empathic link is irrelevant. Yeah, the spirit KNOWS it's out of control and can communicate freely with its summoner about this fact, but its own actions are by definition out of its own control.
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For what it is worth Wu Jen, I am with you. The entire point of that spell is to supercede somethings's own will. Every table I have ever played at allowed it to work on summoned spirits.
Edit: Small clarification. The spell allows you to implant a thought in a creature, which the creature will then act on. So long caster's use falls within that parameter, then with you. As stated it can't alter memory, but it does have the potential to leave the creature believing it acted of it's own volition in some instances.
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But could not the summoner of the spirit order the spirit to attack the summoner?
The summoner can use its 'summoner - spirit'-link to have the spirit perform services.
Each task cost a service and once all services are used up the spirit will return to its own metaplane.
Book doesn't explicitly say you can use manipulation spells on spirits to order them around without spending services.
I am pretty sure the manipulation spells you are talking about are not intended to be used to have the spirit perform tasks without spending services (or even perform tasks that are out of scope of what regular unbound or bound services permit). Stop trying to break the game =)
Having said that, book also doesn't explicitly say you cannot use them on spirits.
If you and your GM really want manipulation spells to work on spirits as well (as mind raping magicians are not powerful enough as is) then you are free to rule that. It is your table. Your rules.
(but I would advice against it).
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For what it is worth Wu Jen, I am with you. The entire point of that spell is to supercede somethings's own will. Every table I have ever played at allowed it to work on summoned spirits.
yeah, Control Actions, sure.
Spirits are literally unable to have certain thoughts (like attacking the summoner) so I'm less receptive to Control Thoughts hijacking someone else's spirit. The services currency surely transcends the spirits thoughts, and cannot be tricked into thinking a service was expended when one was not.
Edit: To add to what Xenon said: No, I also cannot see you using Control Thoughts to make your OWN Spirit do more services above and beyond the services it owes. Frankly if you tried Control Actions on your own spirit for the same purpose, I'd say the actions you made it do WOULD count against the services owed.
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Spirits are literally unable to have certain thoughts (like attacking the summoner)
I personally think that is silly. Spirits are damn smart - they can think literally whatever the wish to dwell upon. They just might not be able to act on their own thoughts of their own free will, which is the crux here.
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Spirits are literally unable to have certain thoughts (like attacking the summoner)
I personally think that is silly. Spirits are damn smart - they can think literally whatever the wish to dwell upon. They just might not be able to act on their own thoughts of their own free will, which is the crux here.
Well, the distinction between being unable to THINK about attacking its summoner and being unable to ACT on the thought of attacking its summoner is moot. Either way, it's not going to "decide" to attack its summoner.
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Well it might be very much not moot, especially if one plans to make an argument about their potentially alien mind set like you outlined above.
But to be specific I think the following scenario is perfectly valid, and it has been ran this way at literally every table I've ever played in Missions:
Summoner: These runners upset me. Get em, spirit! (service 1)
Runner Mage: Nah. Hey spirit, control thoughts - you think and act on "I am really tried of this mortal ordering me around. I think I will engulf him for 2 turns to let him reconsider his attitude.". Spirit will obey, because successful casting of the spell dictates that is what happens.
Summoner: Now engulfed. WTF spirit, why? Stop at once and resume getting those runners! (service 2). Spirit will attempt to obey, and get it's second roll to try to shake off the rest of the control thought hits, acting as the result of that test (still affected by spell or following summoner orders) dictates.
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Every missions table you've played at had GMs and players who were all fine with the idea of a spirit deciding to immolate its summoner instead of complying with the order it was given? Presumably this is something they're fine with spirits doing even when NOT under effects of Control Thoughts?
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Doing it of it's own free will, no.
But the entire effect of that spell is "magic usurps your mind and will, and causes you to believe and act as the caster desires".
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Doing it of it's own free will, no.
But the entire effect of that spell is "magic usurps your mind and will, and causes you to believe and act as the caster desires".
But that's the rub. Spirits DON'T have the same sort of free will to usurp in the first place. They're bound to obey as the summoner expends services. If it cannot decide to just ignore orders and immolate its own summoner, then it can't THINK it decided to do the same.
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Right. So under normal conditions with that spell, the victim will think the thing, then act on the thing, all the while believing it did so totally on it's own until the spell ends.
That part does get a little wonky for spirits, who do know they cannot for example attack their summoner - but the spell is very explicit in what happens when you succumb to it, so they will do it anyhow, but the GM might have to fudge the thinking of how the spirit reconciles being able to take an action it otherwise would think it can't.
A mundane example: A spellcaster uses control thoughts to make a scrawny dude think he totally flip that car over, and to proceed with that idea. Dude should know damn well there is no chance that can happen, but the game mechanic effect of that spell supercedes what he thinks he knows and forces him to go for it.
Edit: Further example. Normally, players get to decide what their characters think, and what their characters do. This spell also supercedes that. It pretty much breaks all the rules, both in game and 4th wall. Most mind control spells in most games do.
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Yes. There are things you cannot do because of physics, and things you cannot do because of (in game) metaphysics.
You can make scrawny dude think he can lift the car and put out his back trying. The spirit simply CANNOT even attempt certain actions because it is prohibited by the rules of magic itself. More magic isn't going to change that in my view.
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We can certainly agree to disagree.
But on a related note, I just finished flipping back through the spirit section of SR5. Does anyone actually know where it states spirits cannot (or will not?) attack their summoners? I cannot seem to locate it, and wanted to examine the specific wording for potential argument material.
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It might be easier to cast influence or control thoughts on the mage that summoned it, if present and available as a target, and have them think, "I don't need this spirit. I can do this myself!" or something else that would cause the mage to dismiss the spirit.
Wouldn't kind of be against the 'spirit (pardon the pun) of the game' to have Control Actions affect the spirit in the first place?
Mage #1: Summon force 6 spirit get 2 services, pick up box a and move it there (1st service), pick up box b and move it to the other place. (2nd service.)
Mage #2 Summon force 6 spirit get 2 services, use 1 service as normal then have another mage cast control actions on said spirit to get it to do manual labor services or even combat. Sure it would be a pissed off spirit but the other mage was the one that decided to take it for a joyride not the summoner.
Basically control actions could lead to what otherwise would be counted as a service normally.
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Yes, using Control Thoughts on the summoner WOULD work. Doesn't matter if the summoner expended a service due to shenanigans, as far as the summoning pact goes, spending a service is spending a service.
OTOH, using Control Actions to force the summoner to order the spirit would not work, imo. The empathic link is still in effect, and the spirit knows the order is not truly intended through that link. Not only that, you have to spend an action to force the victim to spend an action, and under the principle of they use your qualities rather than their own you don't have any owed services to expend. Two reasons this avenue wouldn't work.
Of course, all that presumes the summoner is present to be hit with a spell.
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I personally would have no problem with a mage using control thoughts to effectively get extra services, because that is clearly a place where the spirit abuse index would come into play. Is it doable? Sure, if the timing is right, and obviously it would be very limited in duration. Is it worth getting a shit rep in the spirit world to do? Most likely not.
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It might be easier to cast influence or control thoughts on the mage ...
Yes.