Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Previous Editions => Topic started by: Wu Jen on <06-03-20/1344:17>
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Say small one 1m radius, would it move or would it stay in place as elevator moved.
If it stays where it was placed could a physical barrier be used to "jam up" an elevator?
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I'd say it stays in place, and yes, that could block an elevator. Unless of course the elevator wins at a ramming attack. o,o
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Am assuming you are talking about the Physical Barrier spell.... (as the mana barrier spell is useless to your question)
page 294 CRB
PHYSICAL BARRIER
(ENVIRONMENTAL, AREA)
Type: P Range: LOS (A)
Duration: S Drain: F - 1
This spell creates a glowing, translucent force field
with 1 point of both Armor and Structure rating per hit.
You can form the barrier as a dome with a radius and
height equal to the spell’s normal radius. Alternately,
you can use it to form a wall with a height equal to the
spell’s Force and a length equal to its Force x 2.
Physical Barrier creates a physical wall. Anything the
size of a molecule (or less) can pass through the barrier,
including air or other gases. Anything bigger treats the barrier
as a normal physical wall. The wall is translucent but
shimmers, the equivalent of Light Fog (p. 175). The barrier
does not impede spellcasting (other than visibility penalties),
except for spells with physical components like indirect
combat spells. The barrier can be brought down by
physical attacks, but as long as you sustain it will regenerate
all of its Structure Rating at the beginning of each Combat
Turn. If the barrier is reduced to Structure Rating 0, it
collapses and the spell ends.
To stop an elevator... well... it would have to be one HELL of a force rating... like 30? Higher???
This is just a matter of physics...
F=MxA.... The mass of an elevator (empty) is roughly 1000kg, and travels at 4.4 m/s ..... a fully loaded elevator weighs roughly 4400kg at travels at 4.4 m/s...
And a Force 6 physical barrier has a hard time standing up to a heavy pistol...
Using the 10mm cartridge as a Heavy Pistol standing in: we get 0.011 kg traveling at 390m/s...
so... Elevator comes in at 4400 to 19360 newtons.. while a 10mm is ... 4.29 newtons.
make that a Force 6000 physical barrier :P
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Am assuming you are talking about the Physical Barrier spell.... (as the mana barrier spell is useless to your question)
page 294 CRB
PHYSICAL BARRIER
(ENVIRONMENTAL, AREA)
Type: P Range: LOS (A)
Duration: S Drain: F - 1
This spell creates a glowing, translucent force field
with 1 point of both Armor and Structure rating per hit.
You can form the barrier as a dome with a radius and
height equal to the spell’s normal radius. Alternately,
you can use it to form a wall with a height equal to the
spell’s Force and a length equal to its Force x 2.
Physical Barrier creates a physical wall. Anything the
size of a molecule (or less) can pass through the barrier,
including air or other gases. Anything bigger treats the barrier
as a normal physical wall. The wall is translucent but
shimmers, the equivalent of Light Fog (p. 175). The barrier
does not impede spellcasting (other than visibility penalties),
except for spells with physical components like indirect
combat spells. The barrier can be brought down by
physical attacks, but as long as you sustain it will regenerate
all of its Structure Rating at the beginning of each Combat
Turn. If the barrier is reduced to Structure Rating 0, it
collapses and the spell ends.
To stop an elevator... well... it would have to be one HELL of a force rating... like 30? Higher???
This is just a matter of physics...
F=MxA.... The mass of an elevator (empty) is roughly 1000kg, and travels at 4.4 m/s ..... a fully loaded elevator weighs roughly 4400kg at travels at 4.4 m/s...
And a Force 6 physical barrier has a hard time standing up to a heavy pistol...
Using the 10mm cartridge as a Heavy Pistol standing in: we get 0.011 kg traveling at 390m/s...
so... Elevator comes in at 4400 to 19360 newtons.. while a 10mm is ... 4.29 newtons.
make that a Force 6000 physical barrier :P
Don't most elevators have safety features where if it sense's something wrong it would stop?
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Best thing to do is just arbitrarily decide how strong the barrier needs to be to stop the elevator. There are no rules for that.
Now if you've got a free falling elevator car landing on a barrier, you might use the ramming rules as a model to go off of.
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Am assuming you are talking about the Physical Barrier spell.... (as the mana barrier spell is useless to your question)
page 294 CRB
PHYSICAL BARRIER
(ENVIRONMENTAL, AREA)
Type: P Range: LOS (A)
Duration: S Drain: F - 1
This spell creates a glowing, translucent force field
with 1 point of both Armor and Structure rating per hit.
You can form the barrier as a dome with a radius and
height equal to the spell’s normal radius. Alternately,
you can use it to form a wall with a height equal to the
spell’s Force and a length equal to its Force x 2.
Physical Barrier creates a physical wall. Anything the
size of a molecule (or less) can pass through the barrier,
including air or other gases. Anything bigger treats the barrier
as a normal physical wall. The wall is translucent but
shimmers, the equivalent of Light Fog (p. 175). The barrier
does not impede spellcasting (other than visibility penalties),
except for spells with physical components like indirect
combat spells. The barrier can be brought down by
physical attacks, but as long as you sustain it will regenerate
all of its Structure Rating at the beginning of each Combat
Turn. If the barrier is reduced to Structure Rating 0, it
collapses and the spell ends.
To stop an elevator... well... it would have to be one HELL of a force rating... like 30? Higher???
This is just a matter of physics...
F=MxA.... The mass of an elevator (empty) is roughly 1000kg, and travels at 4.4 m/s ..... a fully loaded elevator weighs roughly 4400kg at travels at 4.4 m/s...
And a Force 6 physical barrier has a hard time standing up to a heavy pistol...
Using the 10mm cartridge as a Heavy Pistol standing in: we get 0.011 kg traveling at 390m/s...
so... Elevator comes in at 4400 to 19360 newtons.. while a 10mm is ... 4.29 newtons.
make that a Force 6000 physical barrier :P
Don't most elevators have safety features where if it sense's something wrong it would stop?
Yes... but define "wrong" here in mechanical terms :D
Basically, it boils down to 3 things for an elevator....
1: electrical load.
2: physical stress (see above)
3: speed of decent.
1 and 2 are tied together in an interlock system. As the heavier the car gets, the more of a load is placed on the electrical system (amperage, volts don't change). Howrver, there are physical limits to how much amperage a wire can handle before it melts...
So, to keep that within operational levels, a limit is placed....(basically a breaker, like in your house)...
The cables that actually move the cabin also have stress limits. As do the holding chambers for hydro lift systems...
To stop a cable (or chamber) from breaking, obviously a weight limit is used...
And a cab falling has negative impacts for those inside... thus an acellerometer cutoff is also used....
Now would any of those be impacted by a 1m/sq barrier spell?? Only if the barrier was strong enough to cause the load to skyrocket...
Put it another way.... a car is rolling fown a hill at 10mile per hour... is you running out in front if the car going to stop it? Would a sign post? How much damage do you think it would if it hit a parked car?
Thats all an elevator is...a 1000kg to 4000kg car, travelling roughly 10 miles per hour... excrpt the elevator does it up and down...
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Eh, I had a player cast a F6 Physical Barrier in front of a chasing car once, neither side survived. At some point, precise physics are boring and you just make a rough decision.
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Eh, I had a player cast a F6 Physical Barrier in front of a chasing car once, neither side survived. At some point, precise physics are boring and you just make a rough decision.
True.
but a having a grounding in reality is useful. Especially for games like SR where reality is intermixed with fantasy.
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Hold on, deliberately putting a barrier across a shaft to stop the elevator car is one thing, but is the consensus that even if you are casting in the elevator car you can't make it so that it moves with the car, that it is always positioned relative to earth?
So by the same logic you could not bubble yourself inside a van, slap a barrier across the back of you truck to provide some cover, make use of a barrier to block off the cockpit on an airplane, or even make most uses of a barrier on a moving ship?
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That's my understanding, yes. Barriers are stationary, relative to the gaiasphere anyway.
Someone on an airliner casts a barrier along the door leading into the flight deck? That barrier is gonna careen down the interior of the passenger cabin at whatever speed the airliner happened to be going at the time.
I don't think that's said by RAW anywhere for the spells, but IIRC rituals and lodges work that way (stationary relative to the gaiasphere). And ritual barriers are said to work the same way as mana/physical barriers. In 6e you have the spell adjustment where you can move the spell's effect around. Basically, exactly for this kind of purpose.
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That's my understanding, yes. Barriers are stationary, relative to the gaiasphere anyway.
Someone on an airliner casts a barrier along the door leading into the flight deck? That barrier is gonna careen down the interior of the passenger cabin at whatever speed the airliner happened to be going at the time.
I don't think that's said by RAW anywhere for the spells, but IIRC rituals and lodges work that way (stationary relative to the gaiasphere). And ritual barriers are said to work the same way as mana/physical barriers. In 6e you have the spell adjustment where you can move the spell's effect around. Basically, exactly for this kind of purpose.
I think you are thinking of wards....
Wards must be anchored to the earth (relatively)..... whichs means no wards in a moving car...
But I couldn't find anything like that for barriers. But eards and barriers do have some overlap.
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I am indeed thinking of wards.
And extending the way they work to barrier spells, since "they work the same".
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All manipulation spells with the 'Environmental' tag, such as a physical barrier, don't have a 'target'. They are all AoE spells you cast at a 'location' you have line of sight to. You never get to 'attach' them on an 'object' (like the rear of a moving car) or 'subject' (like a shield on the arm of a character).
Environmental: These spells don’t really have a target, and they don’t really affect targets directly. They just affect an area.
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All manipulation spells with the 'Environmental' tag, such as a physical barrier, don't have a 'target'. They are all AoE spells you cast at a 'location' you have line of sight to. You never get to 'attach' them on an 'object' (like the rear of a moving car) or 'subject' (like a shield on the arm of a character).
Environmental: These spells don’t really have a target, and they don’t really affect targets directly. They just affect an area.
Exactly. So if you cast the barrier to, say, block a doorway inside a moving vehicle... as the vehicle moves the barrier stays in place.
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All manipulation spells with the 'Environmental' tag, such as a physical barrier, don't have a 'target'. They are all AoE spells you cast at a 'location' you have line of sight to. You never get to 'attach' them on an 'object' (like the rear of a moving car) or 'subject' (like a shield on the arm of a character).
Environmental: These spells don’t really have a target, and they don’t really affect targets directly. They just affect an area.
Exactly. So if you cast the barrier to, say, block a doorway inside a moving vehicle... as the vehicle moves the barrier stays in place.
Except that on page 282, under the heading "Step 7: determine ongoing effects"
Area effect spells that are sustained can be moved as
a Complex Action, provided that the spell area is in the
magician’s line of sight. Characters that drop out of the
affected area are no longer affected by the spell, while
characters that are enveloped by the new affected area
must defend against the spell accordingly
So technically, a mage can expend his complex action to move the sustained barrier to any where he wants.
Not sure if he could allow it to keep pace with a speeding car... but it can be moved at will.
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Exactly. You can move it, but when you're not moving it it's stationary.
Cast it inside a moving vehicle.. and BAM its gone. It blew out the back of the vehicle and probably the passengers. 3 seconds later you move it again, assuming it survived the impact with the back of the moving vehicle.
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Eh, I had a player cast a F6 Physical Barrier in front of a chasing car once, neither side survived. At some point, precise physics are boring and you just make a rough decision.
True.
but a having a grounding in reality is useful. Especially for games like SR where reality is intermixed with fantasy.
To some degree, they do have a barrier chart so you can figure out its relative strength compared to real world objects. 5 is plastlboard which if like plasterboard is super weak, next level up a solid wood door, a chain link fence is 8. Which is sort of weird as I can definitively say you can drive right through a chain link fence but I wouldn't want to drive through a solid wood wall. Though that's more because what holds a chain link fence to a support pole can be weak not the chain link part.
As an aside to the overall discussion spells sort of do need a cast in relation to what you are on effect. If you cast shadow, chaotic world in a plane it being gone instantly is kind of lame. It doesn't thematically fit the world that well and the rules are not intuitive like that. Casting a barrier around you and walking should be a normal thing. All or almost all area sustained spells should have a target a spot or a thing/person option