Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: xthorgoldx on <06-09-20/1450:20>
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In the limited number of references to the 6E's Wild Die, it is usually couched with language such as "but" or "imposed," as if it was a negative modifier. After all, while it does give a boon of +3 hits when it hits, there's the smaller risk of forfeiting all your 5s if it comes up 1. But, looking at things in the long run, what does the wild die's bonus actually look like?
OVERALL: It's a buff. A really strong buff. So long as you're rolling more than 5 dice and less than 30, the wild die is - on average - a net gain. And, if you're rolling a test that is immune to glitching like, say, a Damage Resistance test of BOD, the wild die is a massive bonus.
The full data table is at the end of this album, but the important part is the hit distribution: Link Here (https://imgur.com/a/o6z433F)
Data assembled using a Monte Carlo simulation of dice rolls for varying dicepool sizes. Each dicepool size simulated 100,000 rolls: 50,000 normal rolls, 50,000 with the wild die imposed. If a wild die was present, the simulation rolled that first in order to determine whether it should count 5s as hits in future rolls. I am currently working on a modification to demonstrate how selective Edge application can further skew the results.
GENERAL FINDINGS:
- The Wild Die flattens the curve of hit distribution, which increases the occurrence of lower-than-average rolls, but this is offset by the increase in higher-than-average rolls.
- For dicepools of N>6, the Wild Die can be generalized as a +5 dicepool modifier, with potency dropping as dicepool increases
- For dicepools N>30, the Wild Die becomes a debuff due to the increased occurrence of 5s that can be removed
- Damage Resistance tests universally benefit from the Wild Die, as with only 6 dice to work with the impact of losing all your 5s is reduced, and there's no risk of glitching.
SUPER FUN INTERACTIONS:
- 6E edge actions basically neutralize the risk of the Wild Die. For 1 edge, you can reroll any die; reroll a Wild Die for a 1/3 chance of a hit and 1/6 chance of a 1. Or, if you need to be certain of neutralizing a bad Wild Die, for 2 edge you can increase the result of any die by 1 - useful for preventing glitches and, in this case, wild shenanigans.
- There is literally no reason not to roll a wild die if you're only rolling 1 die, though the circumstances of that ever happening are pretty much nil. Might make for a fun thematic build, where a 2 Agility character is using one of the Firing Squad weapons that impose a wild die without skill in that weapon type.
- The ToughWeave armor modification makes literal street clothes superior to MilSpec.
To explain that last one: ToughWeave is a new armor mod from Firing Squad. It's $15k per rating, but each level of rating confers a flat -1DV to all incoming attacks, "but" imposes the wild die. But, as the math shows, using the wild die for Damage Resistance is a huge buff. So, let's slap some ToughWeave on Armor Clothing (DR +2, Capacity 4, $500) - y'know, that stuff you give to randomly-generated mooks because it's worthless? So, we have some clothes with the following stat block: [DR +2, Social -, Capacity 1, Avail 9(I), Cost $15,500]. Compare this to Light MilSpec armor: [DR +8, Social -6, Capacity 10, Avail 9(I), $17,000].
DR is pretty much worthless for benefiting your defense rolls ("It keeps attackers from getting Edge!" Yeah, that doesn't help you when you've already been shot), and unless the attacker is explicitly trying to do so you'll never gain Edge on a defense roll. So, the that DR difference can be considered irrelevant. MilSpec does have a leg up on internal capacity - theoretically, you could stack ToughWeave on MilSpec, but that would be massively cost prohibitive. However, give how most armor mods are against environmental damage, you can probably get away with skimping - especially if the table permits stacking armor mods (i.e. "I'm not getting a DR bonus from my lined coat, but it does give me a fireproof outer layer!"). YMMV on that one. Availability is equal. The armored clothes are $1,500 cheaper. Finally, the clothes won't penalize you in social interactions. Oh and, bonus, the book doesn't tell the GM to TPK you for daring to wear ToughWeave like it does with MilSpec.
So, stat-for-stat, all MilSpec has going for it is capacity. Once we actually get to dicerolls, the Wild Die gets to play - the performance difference between MilSpec and our Tough Clothes literally becomes the dicepool charts from the visualization posted above. Tough Clothes win. The difference is even more pronounced if you use Vashon Island style suits - those make up the DR difference (if you think it matters), provide extra capacity (want ToughWeave Rating 2?), and even better social buffs.
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It was never intended to be a buff or debuff but rather is meant to add another level of "push your luck".
Personally I'm not a fan of even including it in the first place ... but also suggest that it not open to edge manipulation
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It was never intended to be a buff or debuff but rather is meant to add another level of "push your luck".
But that's the point - regardless of the intention, the implementation comes out to it being a fairly safe and reliable bonus. Even for large dicepools, which are the most vulnerable to hit cancellation, the general effect is "Well, it's not that bad." See the 20 dicepool distribution - while it makes getting DP/3 hits less prevalent and raises the occurrence of <DP/3, it disproportionately weights towards >DP/3 results.
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To explain that last one: ToughWeave is a new armor mod from Firing Squad. It's $15k per rating, but each level of rating confers a flat -1DV to all incoming attacks, "but" imposes the wild die. But, as the math shows, using the wild die for Damage Resistance is a huge buff. So, let's slap some ToughWeave on Armor Clothing (DR +2, Capacity 4, $500) - y'know, that stuff you give to randomly-generated mooks because it's worthless? ... Once we actually get to dicerolls, the Wild Die gets to play - the performance difference between MilSpec and our Tough Clothes literally becomes the dicepool charts from the visualization posted above. Tough Clothes win.
Oh my stars. That has to be a cock-up, right? It can't be intentional. But how could it possibly have been overlooked? This is really basic probability!
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Not arguing that ... just that you start off with an incorrect assumption.
It's overall impact is why I voted against it in development.
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It's overall impact is why I voted against it in development.
They don't listen to you anywhere near enough, Banshee.
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Toughweave is only available by GM Fiat so.... It's 8I or 9I or whatever so not chargen legal. Post chargen item availability rules only let PCs find an NPC with access to the item. Up to the GM if NPC actually wants to sell it. So if the GM perceives something like Toughweave to be problematic, it's simply not for sale anywhere.
As far as the Wild Dice goes, it's a gambling mechanic that will appeal to specific players. The statistical buff on greater than 12-ish Dice isn't all that noticeable by humans over a typical game session. I'm fine with Edging the Wild Die by PCs (or GMs even).
Evil GM: "Oh a 6 on the Wild Die? Re-roll that puppy for sure...."
"Meh, whatever" is kinda where I'm at on the Wild Die. Shadowrun players as a group tend to be very risk adverse. I would be surprised to see many players routinely using a Wild Die in a Missions setting.
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It's overall impact is why I voted against it in development.
They don't listen to you anywhere near enough, Banshee.
Design by committee sucks 😜
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The fact that toughweave is illegal to begin with is flat out ignorant. It's akin to saying we can't sell you a product that will actually do its job.
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It's like other Mil-tech stuff. PCs can't get a licence for it. But it's only illegal if you get caught : )
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A bonus that f***s you 16% of the time is definitely "pushing your luck." -1 to -3 damage is great, but if I roll a 1 then all the remainder is going through, which could be a lot cuz my DR is crap and people keep getting edge on me... And I haven't been gaining edge for similar reasons, and because I spent it on trying not to get shot now I haven't got any to re-roll. Bummer.
Also...
It's a bit disingenuous to ignore DR when comparing the two armors. You're talking about which is better which should be about what each armor does for you. If the character in question is already good at not getting shot (another, better, form of damage resistance) then it may be better to invest in the DR over direct damage reduction. There's a middle-ground where you take the wild-die bonus without dumping your DR, which inevitably will mean you will have to spend more than 15,500 money.
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I like it for risk-seeking people, though I'm more risk-averse myself. (And I believe it should be Edge-immune.) But definitely considering the Monad ammo.
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I penciled out the math around Wild Die a couple weeks ago in response to a question on Reddit. (Thanks, quarantine. I'm desperate enough to visit Reddit.)
Long story short, the break-even point is 24 dice. Below that, the Wild Die is a net gain. Above that, it's a net loss.
I don't understand the qualification about the Wild Die not being worthwhile for dice pools of 5 or less. That doesn't scan, and your (accurate) point about there being no reason not to use it for a dice pool of 1 contradicts that finding.
This makes the rEVOlution Arms from Firing Squad very potent, as most characters will not be rolling 24 dice to attack. One of the remarkable qualities is that the Wild Die gets more powerful (proportionally) as your dice pool gets smaller, as the potential gain is larger and the potential risk is lower. That makes these weapons very attractive, especially for back-up weapons or secondary options. All of a sudden your mage or decker with 6 dice to shoot are rolling 3 or 4 hits a significant percentage of the time.
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It's like other Mil-tech stuff. PCs can't get a licence for it. But it's only illegal if you get caught : )
The blurb on it only mentions it is EVO corp owned, nothing about being military. It does mention how rare it is right now, so the high availability, sure. But illegal? There is no mention of what it is actually made of, but considering it is a modification that can apply to any other armor, the prospect of it being some sort of obvious or cumbersome or heavily armored add-on is illogical to me.
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I don't understand the qualification about the Wild Die not being worthwhile for dice pools of 5 or less. That doesn't scan, and your (accurate) point about there being no reason not to use it for a dice pool of 1 contradicts that finding.
This makes the rEVOlution Arms from Firing Squad very potent, as most characters will not be rolling 24 dice to attack. One of the remarkable qualities is that the Wild Die gets more powerful (proportionally) as your dice pool gets smaller, as the potential gain is larger and the potential risk is lower. That makes these weapons very attractive, especially for back-up weapons or secondary options. All of a sudden your mage or decker with 6 dice to shoot are rolling 3 or 4 hits a significant percentage of the time.
The <5 dicepool is mostly based on qualitative judgment of "How risky is too risky", and is based on the Wild Die creating a substantially higher risk of Critical Glitches. 6 is the last dicepool where CG risk >1%, so that's where I drew the arbitrary line.
And, yeah, the "small pool = big buff" effect is pretty funny in a lot of situations. My personal favorite is imagining some puny decker with STR/AGI 2 just demolishing someone with the tactical chainsaw.
It's like other Mil-tech stuff. PCs can't get a licence for it. But it's only illegal if you get caught : )
The blurb on it only mentions it is EVO corp owned, nothing about being military. It does mention how rare it is right now, so the high availability, sure. But illegal? There is no mention of what it is actually made of, but considering it is a modification that can apply to any other armor, the prospect of it being some sort of obvious or cumbersome or heavily armored add-on is illogical to me.
My take on "What is ToughWeave?" is that it's just super-fancy nanokevlar. EVO is taking advantage of Monad tech, so basically the black box of algorithmic evolutionary design. Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that whatever it is could be utilized inconspicuously.
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It's like other Mil-tech stuff. PCs can't get a licence for it. But it's only illegal if you get caught : )
The blurb on it only mentions it is EVO corp owned, nothing about being military. It does mention how rare it is right now, so the high availability, sure. But illegal? There is no mention of what it is actually made of, but considering it is a modification that can apply to any other armor, the prospect of it being some sort of obvious or cumbersome or heavily armored add-on is illogical to me.
Yeah, it's not actually described which is not cool. Three paragraphs or so of Corp this and eVo ThAt.
Was all of the DV reduction Armor/Armor Mods (I)llegal? I can't recall if Gelweave was (I)llegal or not... I thought I saw a lot of (I) on the Availability column for the DV Reduction stuff. Could be heavy handed game balance meta stuff that didn't trickle down to the writer of the fluff.
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Was all of the DV reduction Armor/Armor Mods (I)llegal? I can't recall if Gelweave was (I)llegal or not... I thought I saw a lot of (I) on the Availability column for the DV Reduction stuff. Could be heavy handed game balance meta stuff that didn't trickle down to the writer of the fluff.
At first I thought "No," but it's literally as illegal as MilSpec. Reactive Armor (absorb damage and break) are 9(I), Gelweave is 6(I).
But, get this - Security Armor is 7(L)egal, has the same -1DV bonus, and the downside is that it inflicts -2m/-4m move/sprint penalties. It's also only $12,500.
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The legality is clearly a meta issue that translates poorly in game.
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Its movement penalties exceed Medium Milspec but it only has Light Milspec benefits, and still suffers from drawing way too much attention. So yeah, like in SR5 it's easier to get and actually possible to get a license for, but it's still a red flag that draws attention.
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"It's a red flag that draws attention"
For the runs that I want my heavy-duty armor on, the armor is not going to be the thing that gets the HTRs called. The book seems to imply that runners wearing heavy armor is an escalation of force that will be met in kind, while ignoring that the converse is equally true - if I know that the target and/or other parties are going to be bringing heavy firepower, I need to be prepared.
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Yeah, I thought all the DV reduction stuff was Niche or Situational use. Nothing jumped out as a "Everyone should take this" thing.
Security Armor with some Gelweave for a Mage with Levitate and a Movement power? Sure, whatever, just call me "T-Pose".
Most Runners won't bother unless they've got a lot of cash to burn. To damn fiddly.