and living beings are knocked unconscious
with a full Stun Condition Monitor. In cases of a
tie, everything disrupts.
solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, dual-For Astral Mana Barriers
natured entities, spirits, and active foci
Astral mana barriers are resistant to
astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the
same manner as physical mana barriers.
mana barriers table
MANA BARRIER ASTRAL OR PHYSICAL REFERENCE
Circle of Protection
ritual
Both p. 144
Magical lodge Both p. 129
Mana Barrier spell Either p. 141
Ward ritual Both p. 145
...
I am kind of curious to see suggested barrier ratings in play, like what are the ratings in missions 6e are the dual stated barriers a different raitng?. I was pretty sure they fixed the ward ritual so the math didn't make it absolutely terrible so maybe force 10 or so would be the norm, no idea...
...
I am kind of curious to see suggested barrier ratings in play, like what are the ratings in missions 6e are the dual stated barriers a different raitng?. I was pretty sure they fixed the ward ritual so the math didn't make it absolutely terrible so maybe force 10 or so would be the norm, no idea...
Post errata, wards are Force = Ritual Leader's Magic + net hits on the ritual. So F6+ wards should be rather common, with "tweens" level Force still within the realm of reason.
I don't know, I always assumed physical spells have a astral presence, they just don't work there as their is nothing physical fro them to interact with, but that could be edition blindness getting me again.
Type: This is either M (for mana) or P (for
physical). Mana spells interact solely with the
astral plane; they may affect living beings, as living
beings have an astral component, but they
have no effect on nonliving, non-astral entities.
Physical spells only affect the physical realm.
Mana barriers on the physical plane are invisible
(except to astral perception), but they act as
solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, dual-
natured entities, spirits, and active foci. Anybody
trying to cast a spell through a barrier must
contend with the rating of the barrier, which is
added to the defense dice pool. If the spell doesn’t
normally have an opposed dice pool, the Spellcasting
test becomes an Opposed test against (rating of
the barrier x 2).
Mana barriers on the astral plane are solid, hazily
opaque walls. Such barriers stop astral movement
and impose a visual penalty equal to the barrier’s
Force. Astral mana barriers are resistant to
astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the
same manner as physical mana barriers.
Dual-natured mana barriers are active on both
planes simultaneously, and they act like mana barriers
on both planes at once.
...
I am kind of curious to see suggested barrier ratings in play, like what are the ratings in missions 6e are the dual stated barriers a different raitng?. I was pretty sure they fixed the ward ritual so the math didn't make it absolutely terrible so maybe force 10 or so would be the norm, no idea...
Post errata, wards are Force = Ritual Leader's Magic + net hits on the ritual. So F6+ wards should be rather common, with "tweens" level Force still within the realm of reason.
Thanks. My quick google i think got a early errata that didn't have it fixed or my eyes skipped over the fix. With a threshold of 6, you'd likely need a team of fairly maximized ritual casters to get to the teens with edge maybe not so absurd of group so high security facilities etc. I wonder what the default assumption is on edge use for NPCs is in the world building for things like wards is.
...
I am kind of curious to see suggested barrier ratings in play, like what are the ratings in missions 6e are the dual stated barriers a different raitng?. I was pretty sure they fixed the ward ritual so the math didn't make it absolutely terrible so maybe force 10 or so would be the norm, no idea...
Post errata, wards are Force = Ritual Leader's Magic + net hits on the ritual. So F6+ wards should be rather common, with "tweens" level Force still within the realm of reason.
Thanks. My quick google i think got a early errata that didn't have it fixed or my eyes skipped over the fix. With a threshold of 6, you'd likely need a team of fairly maximized ritual casters to get to the teens with edge maybe not so absurd of group so high security facilities etc. I wonder what the default assumption is on edge use for NPCs is in the world building for things like wards is.
I have that same question. When a player encounters a NPC, what is a reasonable way to determine if they've used edge that day? What's a reasonable rule of thumb? If you're coming to the end of a security details shift, would that imply they probably would be less 'fresh', reflected in a lower current edge pool? My mind spins on stuff like that.
I don't know, I always assumed physical spells have a astral presence, they just don't work there as their is nothing physical fro them to interact with, but that could be edition blindness getting me again.
Yeah, I don't know if they straight out say it this edition. Under spell types, we get:QuoteType: This is either M (for mana) or P (for
physical). Mana spells interact solely with the
astral plane; they may affect living beings, as living
beings have an astral component, but they
have no effect on nonliving, non-astral entities.
Physical spells only affect the physical realm.
Only supporting evidence I can find is that Physical Mana Barrier states they act as a solid barrier to spells, where as Mana barriers on astral plane are resistant to astral spells in the same way that physical barriers are:Quote
Mana barriers on the physical plane are invisible
(except to astral perception), but they act as
solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, dual-
natured entities, spirits, and active foci. Anybody
trying to cast a spell through a barrier must
contend with the rating of the barrier, which is
added to the defense dice pool. If the spell doesn’t
normally have an opposed dice pool, the Spellcasting
test becomes an Opposed test against (rating of
the barrier x 2).
Mana barriers on the astral plane are solid, hazily
opaque walls. Such barriers stop astral movement
and impose a visual penalty equal to the barrier’s
Force. Astral mana barriers are resistant to
astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the
same manner as physical mana barriers.
Dual-natured mana barriers are active on both
planes simultaneously, and they act like mana barriers
on both planes at once.
I don't know, I always assumed physical spells have a astral presence, they just don't work there as their is nothing physical fro them to interact with, but that could be edition blindness getting me again.
Yeah, I don't know if they straight out say it this edition. Under spell types, we get:QuoteType: This is either M (for mana) or P (for
physical). Mana spells interact solely with the
astral plane; they may affect living beings, as living
beings have an astral component, but they
have no effect on nonliving, non-astral entities.
Physical spells only affect the physical realm.
Only supporting evidence I can find is that Physical Mana Barrier states they act as a solid barrier to spells, where as Mana barriers on astral plane are resistant to astral spells in the same way that physical barriers are:Quote
Mana barriers on the physical plane are invisible
(except to astral perception), but they act as
solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, dual-
natured entities, spirits, and active foci. Anybody
trying to cast a spell through a barrier must
contend with the rating of the barrier, which is
added to the defense dice pool. If the spell doesn’t
normally have an opposed dice pool, the Spellcasting
test becomes an Opposed test against (rating of
the barrier x 2).
Mana barriers on the astral plane are solid, hazily
opaque walls. Such barriers stop astral movement
and impose a visual penalty equal to the barrier’s
Force. Astral mana barriers are resistant to
astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the
same manner as physical mana barriers.
Dual-natured mana barriers are active on both
planes simultaneously, and they act like mana barriers
on both planes at once.
It does specify a item normally blocked is what gets the test, so maybe a physical spell would go right through as its not normally blocked by a purely astral barrier, but if it was in a focus it would go down as the focus is blocked. A benefit of just sustaining the spell i guess. It may be splitting hairs but there may be a difference between sustaining a spell and walking through and casting a spell through. like casting mana bolt a purely astral barrier does nothing to, but a sustained spell has a astral presence and might be stopped. The next section on getting around mana barriers does not specify what sustained spells need to but it could just assume you know that from the previous section.
So, a mage with sustained spells, multiple foci, not astrally perceiving, walks through an Astral Mana Barrier in the Physical world equivalent of it's location, nothing happens?
Both mana barrier spells on the physical and mana barriers spells on astral planes act as solid barriers to sustained spells, spirits, active foci and all other other active magic that have an actual astral form (just like a regular ward or medicine lodge)
The difference is that the physical mana barrier only make it harder to cast spells through it on the physical plane (but not on the astral plane) while the astral mana barrier only make it harder to cast spells through it on the astral plane (but not on the physical plane).
Both mana barrier spells on the physical and mana barriers spells on astral planes act as solid barriers to sustained spells, spirits, active foci and all other other active magic that have an actual astral form (just like a regular ward or medicine lodge)
The difference is that the physical mana barrier only make it harder to cast spells through it on the physical plane (but not on the astral plane) while the astral mana barrier only make it harder to cast spells through it on the astral plane (but not on the physical plane).
Wait, why is it that either mana barrier mucks with all sustained spells, but only block certain spells actively being cast through them?
Way it reads to me, lets you combat spells to keep simple:When in doubt with this kind of thing, I tend to fall back to the metaphysics of 1e/2e Shadowrun, back when Paul Hume was doing his thing, as that was a very robust and well-considered system. The more modern editions sometimes leave gaps.
Astral Mana Barrier
- Physical Spells go through without penalty
Physical Mana Barrier
- Mana spells go through without penalty
Honestly seems more trouble than worth, decent House Rule would just make them all Dual Natured
why is it that either mana barrier mucks with all sustained spellsSustained spells (and all other active magic like vampires, magician using astral perception, spirits, activated foci, wards, mana barriers etc etc) all have a tangible astral form on the astral plane. If you try to move an astral form through another astral form then you risk causing astral intersection which might lead to disruption.
...but only block certain spells actively being cast through them?First of all:
I don't think anyone is saying that only some spells are inhibited?Unlike all other mana barriers (rituals, lodges etc) which add defensive dice against spells being cast on both physical plane and astral plane, mana barriers spells can either only be Astral of Physical. An astral mana barrier will add defensive dice against astral spells.
I tend to fall back to the metaphysics of 1e/2e ShadowrunBy using his logic you could also ground an area of effect spell through a dual natured object or being from the astral plane into the physical plane.
For my table, I think I'd start by saying that a mana barrier is a barrier on the astral plane (I wouldn't hate renaming it) and a physical barrier is a barrier on the physical plane.We are not discussing physical barriers right now.
...and mages (only blocked by mana barriers if they are astrally perceiving or projecting...This is how it works in later editions.
You could arguably introduce dual barriers too, at this point, for the paranoid mage. Or let them stack two barriers on top of each other.This would be the circle of protection ritual that we have in later editions.
- Mana barrier spells don't "block" spells from being cast through them, they act as "Boosted Defense" against spells being cast through them (on the plane they were cast).
Mana barriers are magical walls that impede or block magic and astral forms.
Mana barriers on the physical plane are invisible (except to astral perception), but they act as solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, dual-natured entities, spirits, and active foci.
Reads to me that in either version, the Mana Barrier spell impedes or blocks Mana spells. The Astral version doesn't impede or block Physical spells.I agree that the book is not very explicit and can be read in more than one way.
If you wish to cast a line of sight spell on the physical plane then you need to see the target with your natural vision (reflections count).Umm, as far as I recall, that was always true? You were never capable of casting a spell from the astral at a physical target (for very good game reasons), with the exception of grounding though active foci etc (which has, of course, been removed.)
If you wish to cast a line of sight spell on the astral plane then you need to sense the target with your astral perception.
While auras of subjects and objects on the physical plane can be sensed on the astral they are not sufficient for establishing the mystical link needed to target the spell.
We are discussing a mana barrier spell that is either cast on the astral plane (which make it harder for enemy magicians on the astral plane to cast spells on targets on the other side of the barrier) OR the same mana barrier spell but that is cast on the physical plane (which make it harder for enemy magicians on the physical plane to cast spells on targets on the other side of the barrier).Oh I seeeeeee. I misunderstood that, and in fact, hadn't realised that was a thing. Ta!
You could arguably introduce dual barriers too, at this point, for the paranoid mage. Or let them stack two barriers on top of each other.
This would be the circle of protection ritual that we have in later editions.
| MANA BARRIER | ASTRAL OR PHYSICAL | REFERENCE |
| Circle of Protection ritual | Both | p. 144 |
| Magical lodge | Both | p. 129 |
| Mana Barrier spell | Either | p. 141 |
| Ward ritual | Both | p. 145 |
- Mana barrier spells don't "block" spells from being cast through them, they act as "Boosted Defense" against spells being cast through them (on the plane they were cast).
Mana barriers page 161 first sentence:QuoteMana barriers are magical walls that impede or block magic and astral forms.
And for the physical plane versionQuoteMana barriers on the physical plane are invisible (except to astral perception), but they act as solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, dual-natured entities, spirits, and active foci.
Reads to me that in either version, the Mana Barrier spell impedes or blocks Mana spells. The Astral version doesn't impede or block Physical spells.
Astral mana barriers are resistant to
astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the
same manner as physical mana barriers.
Both = the mana barrier protect against enemy line of sight spells being cast on both astral and physical plane (but it does not protect against bullets).
Either = they only protect against enemy line of sight spells being cast on either astral or physical (but it does not protect against bullets).
Dual Natured = have an actual form or body on both the astral plane and the physical plane (protect against bullets).
SR6 p. 145 Circle of Protection
The circle acts as a combination of the Physical Barrier and Mana Barrier spells...The mana barrier is dual-natured.
...
This brings up an interesting question. Are materialized spirits Dual Natured? If so, then they are also blocked by Astral Mana Barrier when materialized, else, it would require a Physical Mana Barrier to block them from moving through. Trying to find a definitive section of book that states whether spirits are explicitly Dual Natured in 6e.
Only difference I see is what they apply to. Seems that Mana Spells are affected by Astral Mana Barrier and Physical Spells are affected by Physical Mana Barriers.They talk about spells on the physical plane and spells on the astral plane ("astral spells" not "mana spells").
Separately, an astrally perceiving mage would slam into an Astral or Physical Mana Barrier, requiring the test to force his way through it, where as if he was not astrally perceiving, he would simply walk on through.Agreed.
Are materialized spirits Dual Natured?Yes.
then they are also blocked by Astral Mana Barrier when materializedYes.
Trying to find a definitive section of book that states whether spirits are explicitly Dual Natured in 6e.There is no mentioning about spirits (or other wholly astral entities) not keeping their astral form when they use their materialization power.
Only difference I see is what they apply to. Seems that Mana Spells are affected by Astral Mana Barrier and Physical Spells are affected by Physical Mana Barriers.They talk about spells on the physical plane and spells on the astral plane ("astral spells" not "mana spells").
Nowhere do they talk about affecting mana spells and physical spells differently...Separately, an astrally perceiving mage would slam into an Astral or Physical Mana Barrier, requiring the test to force his way through it, where as if he was not astrally perceiving, he would simply walk on through.Agreed.Are materialized spirits Dual Natured?Yes.
Spirits always have an Astral Form.
When they Materialize they also, in addition to their Astral Form, gain a Physical Body.
You could say that Materialization is for an astral entity what astral perception is for a physical entity.then they are also blocked by Astral Mana Barrier when materializedYes.
(together with all other magical critters that can sense the astral plane while at the same time having a physical body; such as vampires, ghouls, barghests, hellhounds, dragons, ...)Trying to find a definitive section of book that states whether spirits are explicitly Dual Natured in 6e.There is no mentioning about spirits (or other wholly astral entities) not keeping their astral form when they use their materialization power.
Having said that, this clarifying (but perhaps redundant?) line from SR5 was removed in SR6:
SR5 p. 301 Spirit Basics
The spirit is dual-natured while it’s materialized
Then why differentiate between Astral Spells vs Spells?What do you mean?
This seems like bad RAW vs RAIThere is overall very little strict RAW in this edition..... :-/
Help me out one where it discusses protecting against bullets?It says "Both" in the table you quoted as in that the spell defend against spells on "both" the astral plane and the physical plane.
That is true for Circle of Protection, but not Ward or Magician Lodge Dual Natured Barrier
A point of potential obfuscation:Yes. Well. Depend on what you mean.
While spells can only affect one plane or the other, spells are always on the astral because they have astral forms. And will therefore always BE AFFECTED by purely astral phenomena.
So when a manabolt is cast by a magician who is solely on the physical plane (not using astral perception) on a target that is also not using astral perception, that manabolt is impeded by an astral mana barrier between the two physical points A (caster) and B (target).No, it isn't.
A point of potential obfuscation:No, it isn't.
While spells can only affect one plane or the other, spells are always on the astral because they have astral forms. And will therefore always BE AFFECTED by purely astral phenomena.
So when a manabolt is cast by a magician who is solely on the physical plane (not using astral perception) on a target that is also not using astral perception, that manabolt is impeded by an astral mana barrier between the two physical points A (caster) and B (target).
only options are Physical, Astral, or DualNatured. There is no both option in Mana Barrier description types.
Physical Mana barrier: stops everything living/magic (subject to exceptions of course, like microbes) passing thru on the physical plane. Astral forms with no physical plane component can pass through unimpeded.
Astral Mana barrier: stops all astral forms from passing through but does not impede life on the physical plane. and by implication, does not stop magic that lacks an astral form (many passive adept powers, for example)
only options are Physical, Astral, or DualNatured. There is no both option in Mana Barrier description types.
Physical Mana barrier: stops everything living/magic (subject to exceptions of course, like microbes) passing thru on the physical plane. Astral forms with no physical plane component can pass through unimpeded.
Astral Mana barrier: stops all astral forms from passing through but does not impede life on the physical plane. and by implication, does not stop magic that lacks an astral form (many passive adept powers, for example)
Do you have a CRB page number to support Physical Mana Barriers blocking all living things?
So long as they have Astral Forms, yes they are. There's no allowance given for barriers to check whether an astral form is "targeting" something on the physical plane. So therefore it can't be allowing astral forms targeting a physical plane construct to pass through unimpeded.You are assuming that a mana spell will gain an astral form and "travel" from your location to the target location?
only options are Physical, Astral, or DualNatured. There is no both option in Mana Barrier description types.
You could arguably introduce dual barriers too, at this point, for the paranoid mage. Or let them stack two barriers on top of each other.QuoteThis would be the circle of protection ritual that we have in later editions.
SR6 CRB pg 162, Mana Barrier Table:
MANA BARRIER ASTRAL OR PHYSICAL REFERENCE
Circle of Protection ritual Both p. 144 Magical lodge Both p. 129 Mana Barrier spell Either p. 141 Ward ritual Both p. 145
All other methods of creating a Mana Barrier are Dual Natured, except for the spell Mana Barrier, unless you interpret Either as giving the option to choose both as an option, but that would be an extremely liberal reading of the table.
So long as they have Astral Forms, yes they are. There's no allowance given for barriers to check whether an astral form is "targeting" something on the physical plane. So therefore it can't be allowing astral forms targeting a physical plane construct to pass through unimpeded.You are assuming that a mana spell will gain an astral form and "travel" from your location to the target location?
But if spells acted like that then they would also hit anything in the astral plane along the way (like spirits and projecting magicians etc).
And if there was an astral mana barrier in the way it would slam into that as well. Causing astral intersection (rather than messing with the magicians spellcasting test).
I am assuming that you need to establish line of sight. Then you cast the spell and the mana will manifest directly at the target location. But if there is a mana barrier in the way (on the plane you are currently on) then it is much harder having the mana manifesting at the target. The spell might fizzle or if doesn't it will at probably at least be weaker than intended.
There is no risk of astral intersection here. There is no risk of the barrier collapsing. It act more like spell defense than anything else...
only options are Physical, Astral, or DualNatured. There is no both option in Mana Barrier description types.
I am talking about this post (emphasis mine)You could arguably introduce dual barriers too, at this point, for the paranoid mage. Or let them stack two barriers on top of each other.QuoteThis would be the circle of protection ritual that we have in later editions.
SR6 CRB pg 162, Mana Barrier Table:
MANA BARRIER ASTRAL OR PHYSICAL REFERENCE
Circle of Protection ritual Both p. 144 Magical lodge Both p. 129 Mana Barrier spell Either p. 141 Ward ritual Both p. 145
All other methods of creating a Mana Barrier are Dual Natured, except for the spell Mana Barrier, unless you interpret Either as giving the option to choose both as an option, but that would be an extremely liberal reading of the table.
So long as they have Astral Forms, yes they are. There's no allowance given for barriers to check whether an astral form is "targeting" something on the physical plane. So therefore it can't be allowing astral forms targeting a physical plane construct to pass through unimpeded.You are assuming that a mana spell will gain an astral form and "travel" from your location to the target location?
In astral space? Yes.QuoteBut if spells acted like that then they would also hit anything in the astral plane along the way (like spirits and projecting magicians etc).
No, because unless you're using astral perception, the spell can't AFFECT anything in astral space. Astral Forms just go right through each other anyway, so even if you were being engulfed by a spirit, when you throw a manabolt at someone who's not also being engulfed by that same spirit... when the manabolt's astral form passes through the spirit's aura it has no interaction because the spirit isn't the target. It's "incidental contact" of astral forms.QuoteAnd if there was an astral mana barrier in the way it would slam into that as well. Causing astral intersection (rather than messing with the magicians spellcasting test).
Exactly.QuoteI am assuming that you need to establish line of sight. Then you cast the spell and the mana will manifest directly at the target location. But if there is a mana barrier in the way (on the plane you are currently on) then it is much harder having the mana manifesting at the target. The spell might fizzle or if doesn't it will at probably at least be weaker than intended.
Well, I've already fallen into the trap of using prior edition metaphysics, but in my self-serving defense it's because the astral metaphysics of this edition are almost completely undefined. All I can say is "well in PRIOR editions, the spell leapt through astral space from you to the target".QuoteThere is no risk of astral intersection here. There is no risk of the barrier collapsing. It act more like spell defense than anything else...
Meh. It's impossible to say with certainty in this edition.
Any-body trying to cast a spell through a barrier must contend with the rating of the barrier, which is added to the defense dice pool. If the spell doesn’t normally have an opposed dice pool, the Spellcast-ing test becomes an Opposed test against (rating of the barrier x 2).
This desperately needs Errata, because the Mana Barrier spell implies it blocks spells, but then references more info on Mana Barriers where it explicitly states it simply applies a Defense Pool bonus to defender or makes an Opposed Barrier Rating x 2 test, if no defending target.If you unknowingly cross the barrier with activated foci, alchemical preparations, reagents and/or [sustained/quickend] spells their astral form will slam into the barrier.
| SR5 p. 315 | SR6 p. 161 |
| Mana barriers on the physical plane are invisible (except to astral perception), but they act as solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, spirits, and active foci. | Mana barriers on the physical plane are invisible (except to astral perception), but they act as solid barriers to spells, manifesting entities, dual-natured entities, spirits, and active foci. |
| Anybody trying to cast a spell through a barrier must contend with the Force of the barrier, which is added to the Defense or the Resistance dice pool. If the spell doesn’t normally have an opposed dice pool, the Spellcasting test becomes an Opposed Test against the Force of the barrier. | Anybody trying to cast a spell through a barrier must contend with the rating of the barrier, which is added to the defense dice pool. If the spell doesn’t normally have an opposed dice pool, the Spellcasting test becomes an Opposed test against (rating of the barrier x 2). |
| Mana barriers on the astral plane are solid, hazily opaque walls. Such barriers stop astral movement and impose a visual penalty equal to the barrier’s Force. | Mana barriers on the astral plane are solid, hazily opaque walls. Such barriers stop astral movement and impose a visual penalty equal to the barrier’s Force[Sic]. |
| Astral mana barriers are resistant to astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the same manner as physical mana barriers. | Astral mana barriers are resistant to astral spells as well as other astral forms, in the same manner as physical mana barriers. |
Speaking of shaping a Mana Barrier...default example is 2x2 Meter Wall. If you can cast it as any shape the caster desires, does that translate to a 2 diameter sphere?No.
New rule of thumb: RPGs should never require you to know the value of pi. (This extends my previous rule that they should never require you to calculate the square root of anything. Looking right at ya, GURPs.)
That said:
2x2 metre plane = 4 m2
Surface area of a 2 metre diameter sphere = 4*pi*r2 = 4*3.14*12 = 12.5 m2
Sphere of 4 m2 area has diameter = 2*sqrt(1/pi) = 1.13 m