Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Murmur on <03-20-11/2125:35>
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So me and my friend are just getting into Shadowrun. We want to make characters that are supposed to be just starting out, and will be going on their very first run. I'm just wondering what a good starting BP is for some characters that are supposed to be brand new runners with hardly any experience at all. We don't mind having to work for Karma to improve ourselves.
He's going to be a combat heavy build, and I am going to be a hacker of some kind. I would like to be a technomancer but I get the feeling that's going to be damn near impossible to enjoy where I am starting at a lower BP.
Also, we plan on taking turns being GM and writing our own runs and stuff, so we don't have to worry about fitting in with what some other players want.
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400BP is the recommended starting point. While this is meant to reflect someone who's already a Shadowrunner, it's also the only way for any of the resource intensive archtypes (Rigger, Street Sam etc) to afford the toys they need to be competitive.
That is, unless your GM is REALLY generous in allowing previous grade Ware (Wired Reflexes, Control Rigs etc) ripped out and replaced...
I've played a 300BP campaign, but it was very hard to play anything than Magical archtypes...and that was still difficult... I don't recommend a starting BP lower than 400.
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I have run a few campaigns at 400 points, and the feel that I get looking at the characters when finished, is that unless they are totally minmaxed, is that they must be pretty new to the shadows, so I would definately agree with Charybdis, that 400 works.
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400 BP is nice to start with.
A good advice is to make well balanced characters with a strong idea behind them.
Spend your BP according to your character, not with strong optimisation and you'll have what you want.
One of my characters was designed to be a "new" runner. For some reason he was implanted with some good bioware and was pulled into shadows but he was a old troll bouncer loser with some skills (grew up in the street and manipulated by bad guys) but was designed to be an exceptional guitarist (47 BP and deep bg) with 16 BP contacts of his old life linked with M.O.M. activists and only 2000 nuyens of gear.
He is quite weak but really fun to play.
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Thanks for the advice guys. 400 BP it is. Yeah I'm not much for min-maxing, I just want to make a character that I identify with so it sounds like i'll do just fine with that.
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If totally new to Shadowrun there's another reason to use the 400 BP (even if the PCs are still new to running the shadows) which is; Most pre-made modules/adventures/runs will have the 400 BP in mind, so if the GM is also new and uses pre-made runs then you run the risk of higher probability towards TPK.
Another way to limit the "experience" of the PCs at creation is to drop the Attribute/Skill max's down. So instead of only one skill starting out at 6, it's now 5, and so on, And this can also be carried over to equipment, programs, equipment availability, etc. Players can then be encouraged to spend that "extra" BP on rounding out skill sets, buying more contacts, etc.
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you might look into karmagen for your starting characters. it has finer controls than the BP and you tend to get more rounded characters. It makes a less viable character if you min max with karmagen.
Runner Companion for karmagen
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Thanks for the advice guys. 400 BP it is. Yeah I'm not much for min-maxing, I just want to make a character that I identify with so it sounds like i'll do just fine with that.
Why don't You go for Adept ?
Your Char can be a better B&E specialist, a better Hacker, an athletics expert....
This goes well with your partner the Combat Heavy Guy
with a better Dance
Medicineman
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Hell, just go with 1000BPs and make an insect shaman.
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Why don't You go for Adept ?
Your Char can be a better B&E specialist, a better Hacker, an athletics expert....
This goes well with your partner the Combat Heavy Guy
with a better Dance
Medicineman
Well the idea is to not be a better anything. We want to have a bunch of misadventures and barely get the job done, but damn it we got the job done. I'm just about the opposite of a power gamer/min-max. I'm more like min-min. I want to put myself in un-escapable situations and not even escape. If I am facing certain death, I want to certainly die. And I don't want "certain death" to be 46 well armed trolls, 4 tanks, and nuclear bomb that is about to go off. More like 1 well armed troll with an angry look on his face. I want to have to think my way through things, and not just thinking as in doing the math to get my 25+ dice pool.
Not for everyone, I know. But hey. My boat is floating.
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I'm just about the opposite of a power gamer/min-max. I'm more like min-min. I want to put myself in un-escapable situations and not even escape. If I am facing certain death, I want to certainly die.
Not for everyone, I know. But hey. My boat is floating.
You have no idea how much respect I have for this point of view, in general. Playing these games is not supposed to be about stomping NPCs, it's supposed to be about role playing an interesting character in a strange world. I applaud this idea.
400 BP is the standard for starting runners. no matter what type of runner you make there is always tons of room for improvement and redirection so don't worry, you will not be overpowered. But just remember, Even a 25 dice pool can Critical Glitch! My friend recently Glitched an 18 dice dodge roll and got taken out by a Professional Rating 3 Security Guard with a Stun Baton. Anything can happen!
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Isn't 300-350 BP the point for entry level runners, as opposed to starting characters?
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Isn't 300-350 BP the point for entry level runners, as opposed to starting characters?
Yeah, but it takes a good deal of familiarity to build a 300bp character who won't just get splattered.
Entry-level runners, sure, but for entry-level players playing entry-level runners, I'd stay 350 and above, or, as has been mentioned go karma.
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I want to have to think my way through things, and not just thinking as in doing the math to get my 25+ dice pool.
Not for everyone, I know. But hey. My boat is floating.
Okkkayihh...but do you want your Boat leaky and rotten or sturdy?
You want to "clear the obstacles" by Thinking. Great,(I like it that way too :) )but what if the char can't fallow through because he is simply inept ? "I need to Jump from Roof to Roof to escape the angry Troll...Hmmm shit,my Char has only a Pool of 6 Dice and I need 3 Successes and I ran out of Edge...."
There is nothing against using your own Brain, Its even better than to simply hope that a High Pool can solve everything, but it's futile if the Char "can't follow through" (Is that the right expression ?)
especially iIf there are only two Players/Chars ,than you need a little Help ant that might be in Form of Adept Powers
and Please (Please !) don't fall for the Stormwind Fallacy ! Just because soemone has a competent Char
He's not necesserilly a bad RolePlayer
He who Rocks in the Boat
Medicineman
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Okkkayihh...but do you want your Boat leaky and rotten or sturdy?
You want to "clear the obstacles" by Thinking. Great,(I like it that way too :) )but what if the char can't fallow through because he is simply inept ? "I need to Jump from Roof to Roof to escape the angry Troll...Hmmm shit,my Char has only a Pool of 6 Dice and I need 3 Successes and I ran out of Edge...."
There is nothing against using your own Brain, Its even better than to simply hope that a High Pool can solve everything, but it's futile if the Char "can't follow through" (Is that the right expression ?)
especially iIf there are only two Players/Chars ,than you need a little Help ant that might be in Form of Adept Powers
and Please (Please !) don't fall for the Stormwind Fallacy ! Just because soemone has a competent Char
He's not necesserilly a bad RolePlayer
I want to start off with a rotten and leaky boat and upgrade to a sturdy one in the distant future. And I wont be taking any jobs that seem out of my league. If I'm stuck doing crappy jobs that pay next to nothing, I don't mind. I like to go slow. I'm extremely new to Shadowrun, so my character's overall potential is pretty much limited to my own knowledge of the game and its rules. By taking it slow I can comfortably learn things as they come up. I kind of like the idea of being the guy that takes all the jobs the more skilled runners laugh at.
Also, don't worry. I'm aware that good characters don't mean bad roleplayers. I didn't mean to come across like that. I just think that starting off (keep in mind that i'm new to not only shadowrun, but pen and paper games altogether), I would be a bad roleplayer with a "competent" character. At least for the time being.
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Also, don't worry. I'm aware that good characters don't mean bad roleplayers. I didn't mean to come across like that. I just think that starting off (keep in mind that i'm new to not only shadowrun, but pen and paper games altogether), I would be a bad roleplayer with a "competent" character. At least for the time being.
I think you're selling yourself short here.
Anyone in the world of shadowrunning needs to have some sort of skillset that is useful in the shadows, and well above the Joe Average norms. These skill sets can be anything from:
- Combat skills: Punching stuff, shooting stuff
- Social Skills: Talking your way out of trouble or other negotiations, lots of contacts in useful places
- Magic Skills: Any summoning or spellflinging
- Athletic skills: Parkour-style roof-running or climbing into difficult areas
- Hacking skills: Convincing the system you're authorised to be walking around, forging credentials
- Other computer stuff: Online research, program design, general electronics
- Repairs and tech: Keeping damaged stuff operational, jury-rigging
- Infiltration: Make-up and disguise or just sneaky stealthiness, Picking locks
- Vehicles and drones: Remote controlled drones for surveillance or combat, driving transport real good
- Management skills: Leadership and co-ordination ability, team trust
- etc etc etc
As a Shadowrunner-PC, you need to have something special that you're adding to the group, beyond just a good thinking cap.
Also, it's comforting to be a new guy in the group, but knowing you can do something other members can't. It cements your place, giving confidence to expand out to other areas when you feel comfortable, but knowing tyou can fall-back on your primary skillset and just be 'the man when it comes to <z> activity....
If not, you're just an average joe, maybe with a gun or a good idea, and that's not really a useful option for someone who is going to be dodging bullets for a living.
The Karma system for improving PC's in Shadowrun is a very slow process (often, frustratingly so). So don't get caught up in the idea that you'll easily improve your starting PC to be a fantastic runner once you've got the basics... the SR mechanics don't work like that.... they're deliberately harsh, and the world is very, very deadly.
Even a kind GM (sometimes this is even me ::) ) can accidentally kill a PC with just a couple of lucky rolls. Myself, and other posters in this thread, really do recommend you take a few advantages to make your PC really competent at something. Anything.
Many years of experience tell me that this will definitely suit you and your playing style, and make your Shadowrun experience more enjoyable. Trust us, we've done this before 8)
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My runner is decent with SMG's and hacking, he's just not amazing at either. He's not completely skill-less or anything, and I feel he can hold his own in a similarly inexperienced group of runners. In fact he did. And I don't expect to quickly become great or anything. In fact my character is quite happy with mediocrity. It's just his style.
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My advice for creating characters is try to get everything at starting
Try to make the character you want because it's as good as it's going to get
As many people here have already stated Karma growth is a very slow
Same with Cyber upgrades (unless you get very well paying jobs)
Also Knowledge skills are your friends
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My runner is decent with SMG's and hacking, he's just not amazing at either. He's not completely skill-less or anything, and I feel he can hold his own in a similarly inexperienced group of runners. In fact he did. And I don't expect to quickly become great or anything. In fact my character is quite happy with mediocrity. It's just his style.
Hmmm, I think you're settling for the fallacy that 'being mechanically excellent at something in-game makes one a bad roleplayer.' On the contrary, Roleplaying in shadowrun consists of two aspects:
- Role-playing activity (problem solving, investigation, PC interactions etc) AND
- Roll-playing activity (rolling the dice to put your PC's skill-sets to the test)
I love playing PC's with gaping holes in their character (can't shoot a gun to save themselves (No skill + incompetence), trip up walking down a sidewalk (Agi/Rea @2), Socially inept (Cha 2, Uncouth etc). But all of them have a reason to be recruited into the shadows, ie something they;re really good at that adds value to the team.
Now, before I go on any tangent rant here...what's your definition of 'Decent'?
- Dice pool of 6? 8? 10? 12?
If Hacking and SMG's are the main skills you're bringing to the crew, please tell me you've got Dice pools in the 12+ range.
Anything less and you're on Par with an Average Rent-a-cop, which is NOT suitable for a Shadowrunner.
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My dicepool for hacking is 13 and my SMGs is 9. I've stated before that I fully understand that well built characters don't mean bad roleplayers. I'm sorry that my character sucks. Maybe my next one will follow everyone else's standards on what makes a good character. This is the first character I've ever made for shadowrun, or any pen and paper game at all actually. For me the best way to learn is to learn from mistakes. So apparently I will have a lot to learn from this character. Doesn't mean I still can't have a lot of fun.
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My dicepool for hacking is 13 and my SMGs is 9. I've stated before that I fully understand that well built characters don't mean bad roleplayers. I'm sorry that my character sucks. Maybe my next one will follow everyone else's standards on what makes a good character. This is the first character I've ever made for shadowrun, or any pen and paper game at all actually. For me the best way to learn is to learn from mistakes. So apparently I will have a lot to learn from this character. Doesn't mean I still can't have a lot of fun.
Heya :)
Sorry if I sounded harsh. It just appeared like you were deliberately making mistakes, regardless of advice given, even though you were posting a request for advice. That's the bit that stung me a little...
A) Hacking pool of 13 is more than fine
B) SMG at 9 means you can handle a gun but it's a contingency plan only, which suits a clever shadowrunner PERFECTLY :D
C) Playing a deliberately lower-power PC in order to learn more? *shrugs* also sounds fine to me.
D) We've discussed two skills,which is a fraction of the PC in question: so I'm sure that the PC will have enough quirks, temperaments and good ideas to have fun.
Learn, and learn well. Best of luck to you :D
Side note: Consistent usage of double-negatives is normally an indication of a pessimistic view. That also rubbed me the wrong way, especially when combined with apparent disregard to any and all advice...
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Sorry if I came over a bit harsh myself. I am appreciative of the advice given, and I'm not disregarding it, on the contrary I have followed it. I've given my character a viable main skill and a backup skill, other skills that may come in handy, a lengthy backstory, and fitting qualities for him. My main goal in all this was to create a character I can relate to, without thinking too much about making him the best mechanically 400 BP character possible. I don't want to have a useless character, not at all. I just want a character that has to rely on roleplaying more than rollplaying.
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All good.
Have fun :D
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Murmur, congratulations on your foray into the world of Shadowrun roleplaying. I believe a fantastic roleplaying session may not require much dice rolling at all. It's my opinion, that the message folks are trying to convey here is thus: The best roleplaying does not automatically convert into excellent roll-playing. In this game, a decent dice pool is requisite and expected by game design. For example if the role of "Face" does not have a decent Charisma and Negotiation skill, they can talk the talk (roleplay) but not walk the walk (roll-play). They shouldn't expect to win many of the opposed checks when trying to get better prices, or increasing the pay on a run, make a great deal with the Fixer on equipment. The roleplay part only gets you so far. Same goes with weapons, if your dice pool doesn't get you enough successes to get past the Reaction and subsequent damage soaking rolls its going to be trouble. I learned quickly that my very fashionable Lined Coat was quite insufficient alone as armor. This forum proved to be a fantastic source of information, assisting me in learning about Form Fitting Body Armor, PPP, and more. Now if my Magician would only stop walking out in front of a hail of bullets he might not find himself in overflow more often than not. ;)
This is not to say that some excellent roleplaying shouldn't give you a bonus d6 or the like, in fact I think that excellent roleplay should be rewarded. Its mentioned in the Karma reward section, but that's after the adventure.
Check with your GM and gaming buddies. It could be that, like my GM, you'll be allowed some tweaking in the early game. For example I realized that my Magicians decision to take Body:2 was in fact not a great idea. I found ways to free up 20 BP and got that to Body:4 instead. This allowed me to make use of the armor types I mentioned above. From the GM purview its good to have a decent set of runners, who can not only role-play, but also roll-play to be successful in the face of opposition be it combat, hacking, infiltration, etc. This game can be deadly, as in one hit from a narrow burst SMG (and the baddy still has another Simple Action to do another!).
First and foremost, enjoy your game!
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When I make a runner character I usually start of with a concept, then refine that concept with how he's perceived by others.
The most common one I use is "How would a fixer describe this character to a Johnson to convince the J that this runner (and for setting it up, the fixer too) is worth the J's money and to hire the runner."
I see your character right now as something like this:
"Well, I know this guy. Can hack, won't shoot his own foot off. Not the best I' ever seen but the Chummer'll run for soy-kaf and beans."
I like it, but there should really be more of a sell, otherwise it will just seem silly to have this guy work anything but the lowest of street level runs.
A good "hook" could easily be role-play driven too, requiring no BPs and further defining your character.
"Well, I know this guy. Can hack, won't shoot his own foot off. Knows to keep his mouth shut after a run and a thing or two about Japanese culture. Might be handy since you say you plan to hit Renraku. Oh, and he runs on the cheap, more concerned about tryin' to make a rep for himself as a runner."
Sounds better to me. I wouldn't hire the first description except as a distraction or a meat shield. The second sounds like a better investment.