Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Odsh on <02-11-21/1746:45>
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I'm trying to get an overview of the dice pool to use when controlling a vehicle through various means.
Could someone please tell me if the summary available here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZY9vRIGFUxGUM-GzEm5HQnESlKmugRjs7e4_A9pHHB8/edit?usp=sharing) is correct?
Also, am I correct that the only advantage of a Control Rig that costs 3 Essence and 270k nuyen is a +3 dice for tests when jumped into a vehicle, rather than reducing the handling of the vehicle by that number like in previous editions?
Is this bonus also applied to attack tests?
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Haven't looked at your doc yet, but a couple quick answers:
Yes, control rigs are hella expensive. (although, the German language version is rating x 30,000, which I'd suggest as a fine house rule)
Control rigs give you +1 die per rating level, as you're already aware of. Errata added in that control rigs now (once again!) reduce thresholds by rating, as well.
The edge gain for "vehicle" tests involves any test that involves a vehicle. Rea+Int to avoid being shot? If you're driving a vehicle, that's a vehicle test, and +1 Edge. Logic + Gunnery to shoot a mounted gun? If it's mounted on a vehicle, that's a vehicle test and +1 Edge. Etc. Of course, remember the golden rule about preventing Edge gains.
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Your red bars:
Do you add Control Rig rating to attacks with mounted weapons while jumped in? Yes. (see above) remember there's an augmented limit on skill tests though... and if you're at +3 dice due to your control rig you're already almost at the +4 augmented limit.
What do person-controlled vehicles roll when trying to be sneaky: Yes, that's technically unstated. I believe the best practice would be Stealth + Reaction (or Stealth + Intuition while in VR), while keeping in mind how high or low the driver's piloting skill actually is for the purposes of "circumstantial contexts" for that leg of the Edge gain triad.
Attack Rating: mounted weapons use the weapon's stats
Ramming Attack Rating for autopilot: Also technically unstated, but I believe the best practice is as you guessed: Use Maneuvering autosoft in place of the skill, plus Sensor.
You didn't appear to ask about what I find to be a pretty tricky thing to figure out: what's it's MATRIX DR? Because you know, the decker might want to hack or brick enemy drones, wouldn't they? :)
Luckily, most of the time the Matrix DR (which I abbreviate as mDR) is derived directly from the master device/owner or host/spider. But you don't always have a drone protected by a network. In such a case, per pg 201 vehicles and drones have a Device Rating equal to its Sensor. Technically Device Rating doesn't mean anything beyond how big the Matrix Condition Monitor is (which you'll absolutely need to know in the case of trying to brick it) and has 0/0DF because those stats were never explicitly given... I believe a good house rule would be to say Data Processing is equal to Pilot (because Pilot serves a similar limit to the number of programs the vehicle can run simultaneously) and F is equal to Sensor (because Device Rating is equal to Sensor).
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Could someone please tell me if the summary available here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZY9vRIGFUxGUM-GzEm5HQnESlKmugRjs7e4_A9pHHB8/edit?usp=sharing) is correct?
Rule is not very clear here, but I would personally still resolve Sneaking with a vehicle (driving inconspicuously, tailing someone at a distance, etc) as Reaction (Manual/AR) or Intuition (VR/Jumped In) + Stealth or Piloting (whichever is lowest).
Also, am I correct that the only advantage of a Control Rig that costs 3 Essence and 270k nuyen is a +3 dice for tests when jumped into a vehicle, rather than reducing the handling of the vehicle by that number like in previous editions?
It does both. Just like in previous edition.
Errata Feb 2020 p. 6
p. 283, Control Rig, paragraph 2
Adjust the paragraph to read as follows:
When you’re jumped in it provides its rating as
a dice pool bonus on and reduction in threshold to
all tests involving the operation of vehicle, and a
bonus point of Edge.
Is this bonus also applied to attack tests?
Yes.
SR6 p. 197 Control Rigs and You
Each rating point of the control rig awards one extra die on tests involving the operation of a jumped-in device.
what's it's MATRIX DR?
It is typically Firewall (of the network the device is part of) + Data Processing (of the network the device is part of). In this edition the intention seem to be that most drones will be part of some sort of network.
But it have also been suggested that a device that is not part of any network at all and doesn't have any matrix attributes of its own still get to use its Device Rating in place of Firewall (but not Data Processing). And in case of a Drone, Device Rating would in that case be equal to its Sensor Rating.
I believe a good house rule would be to say Data Processing is equal to Pilot (because Pilot serves a similar limit to the number of programs the vehicle can run simultaneously)
As mentioned above, most drones will probably be part of a network of sorts - but I think this ruling sounds fair.
(and could perhaps also be used for standalone smart weapon platforms as well).
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Thanks all for the in-depth responses.
and if you're at +3 dice due to your control rig you're already almost at the +4 augmented limit.
I wouldn't have counted that towards the augmented limit personally. When making a test, it's usually an Attribute plus a Skill and both have their own augmented limit (for a total of +8). Towards which of the two augmented maximums would the Control Rig apply its bonus? To me it's a flat bonus to the dice pool, not specifically to the Attribute or Skill.
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Thanks all for the in-depth responses.
and if you're at +3 dice due to your control rig you're already almost at the +4 augmented limit.
I wouldn't have counted that towards the augmented limit personally. When making a test, it's usually an Attribute plus a Skill and both have their own augmented limit (for a total of +8). Towards which of the two augmented maximums would the Control Rig apply its bonus? To me it's a flat bonus to the dice pool, not specifically to the Attribute or Skill.
The augmented limit for skill tests* is different than the augmented limit for attributes.
You have a cap of +4 to any attribute. New to 6e, you have a cap of +4 to any skill test*. The two augmented limits stack, for a potential +8 bonus dice (capped at +4 though in each category), if you want to look at it that way.
*yes this is a point of dispute with some, as the text is admittedly ambiguous as to whether the intent was a limit of +4 skill ranks or +4 bonus dice to a skill test. To the best of my knowledge the intent is the latter, but adding this caveat to acknowledge that the only clarification on the subject was not formal errata.
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*yes this is a point of dispute with some, as the text is admittedly ambiguous as to whether the intent was a limit of +4 skill ranks or +4 bonus dice to a skill test. To the best of my knowledge the intent is the latter, but adding this caveat to acknowledge that the only clarification on the subject was not formal errata.
Thanks for the info, it's a subtle but important difference.
I understand that this was clarified as being the rules as intended, however to me the writing unambiguously says the opposite.
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The edge gain for "vehicle" tests involves any test that involves a vehicle. Rea+Int to avoid being shot? If you're driving a vehicle, that's a vehicle test, and +1 Edge. Logic + Gunnery to shoot a mounted gun? If it's mounted on a vehicle, that's a vehicle test and +1 Edge. Etc. Of course, remember the golden rule about preventing Edge gains.
You're referring to the situational Edge I assume.
It seems logical that someone controlling a vehicle remotely in VR will have an advantage against someone controlling his vehicle in AR.
Same for a "jumped in" rigger vs VR control.
But let's say a rigger is jumped into a Nissan Samourai and in close combat with a metahuman opponent. Who has the advantage? Is rigging better than controlling your own body?
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You're referring to the situational Edge I assume.
Errata Feb 2020 p. 6
p. 283, Control Rig, paragraph 2
Adjust the paragraph to read as follows:
When you’re jumped in it provides its rating as
a dice pool bonus on and reduction in threshold to
all tests involving the operation of vehicle, and a
bonus point of Edge.
(I already posted this I think....)
let's say a rigger is jumped into a Nissan Samourai and in close combat with a metahuman opponent.
If you are jumped in then you will get a bonus point of Edge to all tests involving the operation of vehicle.
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The edge gain for "vehicle" tests involves any test that involves a vehicle. Rea+Int to avoid being shot? If you're driving a vehicle, that's a vehicle test, and +1 Edge. Logic + Gunnery to shoot a mounted gun? If it's mounted on a vehicle, that's a vehicle test and +1 Edge. Etc. Of course, remember the golden rule about preventing Edge gains.
You're referring to the situational Edge I assume.
No, I'm referring to Edge from Gear/Qualities/Etc.
Remember that there are THREE avenues for potential edge gain in any action:
1) AR vs DR (ok, only counts during attacks, but still relevant when attacking while rigging)
2) Gear/Qualities/Etc: Control Rig gives you automatic edge via this leg of the triad.
3) circumstantial modifiers: Is your vehicle well suited to the context? Poorly suited? Are you driving in VR compared to your tail chasing you in AR? etc.
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Thanks for the clarification, indeed I missed the part about the Edge gain from one of your previous posts.
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You didn't appear to ask about what I find to be a pretty tricky thing to figure out: what's it's MATRIX DR? Because you know, the decker might want to hack or brick enemy drones, wouldn't they? :)
Luckily, most of the time the Matrix DR (which I abbreviate as mDR) is derived directly from the master device/owner or host/spider. But you don't always have a drone protected by a network. In such a case, per pg 201 vehicles and drones have a Device Rating equal to its Sensor. Technically Device Rating doesn't mean anything beyond how big the Matrix Condition Monitor is (which you'll absolutely need to know in the case of trying to brick it) and has 0/0DF because those stats were never explicitly given... I believe a good house rule would be to say Data Processing is equal to Pilot (because Pilot serves a similar limit to the number of programs the vehicle can run simultaneously) and F is equal to Sensor (because Device Rating is equal to Sensor).
It is typically Firewall (of the network the device is part of) + Data Processing (of the network the device is part of). In this edition the intention seem to be that most drones will be part of some sort of network.
But it have also been suggested that a device that is not part of any network at all and doesn't have any matrix attributes of its own still get to use its Device Rating in place of Firewall (but not Data Processing). And in case of a Drone, Device Rating would in that case be equal to its Sensor Rating.
Good point, I forgot about this important stat indeed.
So, when part of a network, the Matrix DR is Firewall + Data Processing of the network (usually an RCC).
For a drone on its own, it's less clear.
You both agree that Firewall should be equal to Sensor (seems strange but ok).
But then we have either Pilot for Data Processing or no Data Processing at all.
*sigh* :D
At least no rigger will probably ever not slave one of its drones, so the issue is moot most of the time.
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You both agree that Firewall should be equal to Sensor (seems strange but ok).
SR6 p. 201 Drone Rigging
Drones use the same statistical block as vehicles. For hacking purposes, consider their Device Rating to be equal to their Sensor rating.
But then we have either Pilot for Data Processing or no Data Processing at all.
By RAW devices, including drones, that are not part of a network and does not explicitly have Firewall or Data Processing have a DR of 0 (but drones will likely always be part of a larger network of sorts so this is not a very likely scenario I think)
Author have suggested an optional rule that devices, including but not limited to drones, that are not part of a network and does not explicitly have either Firewall nor Data Processing get to use their Device Rating instead of Firewall (but not Data Processing, Attack or Sleaze).
Matrix FAQ - Devices
Rules as written make having a decently defended team PAN a confusing mess due to low device limits. To offset this I propose the following …
...Unlinked devices that do not have any of the normal ASDF attributes can substitute Device Rating for Firewall (all other matrix attributes are zero).
In addition to this, SSDR suggest a non-official house rule to provide drones (and perhaps other devices that might have a pilot rating), that are not part of a network to use their Pilot rating instead of Data Processing as a House Rule.
At least no rigger will probably ever not slave one of its drones, so the issue is moot most of the time.
This.
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The attempt to hit another being or vehicle is an Opposed test—Piloting + Reaction vs. Piloting + Reaction if you’re trying to hit another vehicle, or Piloting + Reaction vs. Intuition + Reaction if you’re trying to hit someone outside a vehicle. Speed Interval penalties (p. 199) apply in either case.
Is every actor penalized by his own Speed Interval, or is it the attacker's Speed Interval applied to both?
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Drivers should track their own speed.
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Agreed, but I like to interpret the rule as also applying to pedsetrians shooting at moving vehicles (and people in/on said vehicles).
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Drivers should track their own speed.
So you have less chances to ram an immobile vehicle than a fast moving one?
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A drone has a number of slots for autosofts and other Matrix programs equal to half its Pilot rating, rounded up. If a drone is slaved to a rigger command console, it uses the programs running on the RCC. This can exceed its normal limit.
So rigger programs are installed on the RCC and drone autosofts are installed on the drones, but in the end the drones benefit from both.
Is it possible to install an autosoft on the RCC so that all drones in the network benefit from it without the need to install it on each drone?
Is there some kind of copy protection mechanism that forces the rigger to buy a separate instance of an autosoft for each drone?
What is the max rating for drone autosofts? 6 I assume?
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Drivers should track their own speed.
So you have less chances to ram an immobile vehicle than a fast moving one?
You track your own, so it's irrelevant how many speed interval dice your target is suffering.
The potential exception I mentioned in my own post is applying the driver's speed interval penalty to external actors on foot who are targeting that driver/vehicle/passengers but have no speed interval penalties of their own. As a sort of of penalty for shooting at a fast moving target, since there is none... rather than reserving that consideration to circumstantial edge. That's not official however.
A drone has a number of slots for autosofts and other Matrix programs equal to half its Pilot rating, rounded up. If a drone is slaved to a rigger command console, it uses the programs running on the RCC. This can exceed its normal limit.
So rigger programs are installed on the RCC and drone autosofts are installed on the drones, but in the end the drones benefit from both.
Somewhat correct. You can run Autosofts directly on drones. And technically there's no limit to the number of Autosofts you have loaded on a drone, there's only a limit on the number of Autosofts a drone can benefit from simultaneously.
For example:
If you have a little Pilot 1 spy drone, you can load Clearsight, Maneuvering, Stealth, and Evasion all onto it. But it can only use 1 at a time. (not including what may be shared from a RCC)
Is it possible to install an autosoft on the RCC so that all drones in the network benefit from it without the need to install it on each drone?
Yes. that's what the Sharing mechanic is for. See pg. 197
Is there some kind of copy protection mechanism that forces the rigger to buy a separate instance of an autosoft for each drone?
By RAW unclear, but the intent is that if you want X copies of a program you have to buy X copies of a program.
What is the max rating for drone autosofts? 6 I assume?
Per Jan 2020 errata, max rating on Autosofts is 9.
Edit: also note that autosofts can be run on and shared to passenger vehicles!
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Drivers should track their own speed.
So you have less chances to ram an immobile vehicle than a fast moving one?
Not sure I fully understand your line of reasoning there....?
Your negative modifier seem to depend on both how fast you are actually driving but also how well your vehicle handle speed.
You typically have less chance to hit if are in a crappy vehicle that can't handle speed than if you are in a sporty vehicle made for high speed. You typically have less chance to hit if you are in a vehicle that is speeding than if you are in a vehicle that is not moving at reckless speeds.
To ram an immobile object you typically don't have to drive very fast at all (= easy to control)
To catch up to, and ram, a fast moving vehicle you typically need to drive a lot faster (= difficult to control).
So, to figure out your negative modifier it seem as if you need to track your speed.
SR6 p. 199 Vehicle Rigging
Speed Interval is a measure of difficulty in driving the car—the faster the car, the trickier it is to keep under control, though some cars handle speed better than others. Drivers should track their current speed; each time they pass another Speed Interval, they incur a cumulative –1 dice pool penalty to any tests involving Handling for the vehicle, as well as attacks from the vehicle.
So rigger programs are installed on the RCC and drone autosofts are installed on the drones, but in the end the drones benefit from both.
Is it possible to install an autosoft on the RCC so that all drones in the network benefit from it without the need to install it on each drone?
Is there some kind of copy protection mechanism that forces the rigger to buy a separate instance of an autosoft for each drone?
Yes, drones can benefit from an autosoft running on the RCC it is slaved to or an autosoft that is running on the drone itself, but it seem as if each drone type and model have a different version of the same autosoft. They don't seem to be compatible between different drones.
What is the max rating for drone autosofts?
9
SR6 Errata Feb 2020 p. 6
p. 272, Software table
After the word Autosoft, add “(Rating 1–9”) to provide a range for Autosoft ratings.
Somewhat correct. You can run Autosofts directly on drones. And technically there's no limit to the number of Autosofts you have loaded on a drone...
At least in previous edition 'Load' a program was the same thing as to 'Run' a program.
So what I think you meant to say was;
No limit of Autosofts you may have 'stored' on a drone.
Limit is on the number of Autosofts a drone can 'run'.
SR6 p. 184 Programs
The Data Processing rating of your device limits how many programs you can have running, though more may be stored.
...there's only a limit on the number of Autosofts a drone can benefit from simultaneously.
There is only a limit on the number of slots a drone have to run programs directly on the Drone itself.
If slaved to a RCC it can instead benefit from Autosofts that are currently running on the RCC.
SR6 p. 201 Autosofts
A drone has a number of slots for autosofts and other Matrix programs equal to half its Pilot rating, rounded up. If a drone is slaved to a rigger command console, it uses the programs running on the RCC. This can exceed its normal limit.
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So you have less chances to ram an immobile vehicle than a fast moving one?
You track your own, so it's irrelevant how many speed interval dice your target is suffering.
Not sure I fully understand your line of reasoning there....?
I'm not referring to the attacker, but the defender.
Determining if you hit something with a ramming attack, like any attack, is an opposed test. My point is that the defender is less likely to score hits when he's faster. Ergo, you're more likely to ram a fast moving target than a slow or stationary one.
The only thing that matters in the end are the net hits. In that regard, adding or removing dice to the attacker has exactly the same effect as doing the inverse for the defender (barring Edge shenanigans).
It's the same kind of weirdness as your example of someone shooting at a fast moving vehicle.
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Ah I see what you're getting at. Speed interval is not a universal penalty. I believe the intent is that it does not apply to dodge/defense tests, although I can see how it's confusing since it says it has to do with "handling tests".
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I think you're right, I misinterpreted the "in either case" below:
The attempt to hit another being or vehicle is an Opposed test—Piloting + Reaction vs. Piloting + Reaction if you’re trying to hit another vehicle, or Piloting + Reaction vs. Intuition + Reaction if you’re trying to hit someone outside a vehicle. Speed Interval penalties (p. 199) apply in either case.
Speaking of dice pools for defense, is it also Piloting + Reaction for attacks other than ramming?
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If someone is attacking your vehicle or drone it's still Reaction + Intuition while you're in control of it. Pilot + Evasion autosoft is only for autopilot.
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*yes this is a point of dispute with some, as the text is admittedly ambiguous as to whether the intent was a limit of +4 skill ranks or +4 bonus dice to a skill test. To the best of my knowledge the intent is the latter, but adding this caveat to acknowledge that the only clarification on the subject was not formal errata.
On an interesting sidenote, the rules for creating custom spells in Street Wyrd make a clear distinction between the two following ingredients:
Affect specific type of test
When this ingredient is selected, choose a type of test. This has to be narrower than a single skill—for example, Blade attack would be appropriate, but Close Combat attack would not be. Similarly, a Lockpicking test could be selected, but not any Engineering test. All tests of the selected type get +2 or –2 dice per 1 point of Drain the caster adds.
Skill boost
A specific skill must be selected for this spell. The maximum skill bonus is +4. Drain: Caster rolls a Sorcery + Magic (5 – Essence) test; each net hit increases the skill and the Drain Value of the spell by 1.
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If someone is attacking your vehicle or drone it's still Reaction + Intuition while you're in control of it. Pilot + Evasion autosoft is only for autopilot.
Well it's Piloting + Reaction when defending against a ramming attack at the very least.
Would the Reaction + Intuition then become 2 x Intuition in VR and when "jumped in"?
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On an interesting sidenote, the rules for creating custom spells in Street Wyrd make a clear distinction between the two following ingredients
...but both of them still use the same up to a total maximum of +4
Just that in the first case you only get a positive dice pool bonus to your close combat skill if you are specifically using blades or your engineering skill if you are specifically using lockpicking.
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Would the Reaction + Intuition then become 2 x Intuition in VR and when "jumped in"?
When you're rolling something else in place of Reaction, then of course it's (Substituted Stat) + Intuition ;)
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All right, I updated the table with everything that was said so far: link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZY9vRIGFUxGUM-GzEm5HQnESlKmugRjs7e4_A9pHHB8/edit?usp=sharing).
Am I missing anything?
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Well it's clear there's no special rule for stealth while driving/commanding a drone, so technically it's still Stealth, with a presumably reasonable switch of attribute from Agility to Reaction. But Xenon's suggestion of "lower of stealth or piloting" is quite a fine house rule. (Which may not be a meaningful distinction if your doc is for your home game)
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But Xenon's suggestion of "lower of stealth or piloting" is quite a fine house rule.
Agreed. This would be considered a House Rule for now as there is nothing in the rules as written to support this (at least not yet - perhaps this will change once the Rigger supplement is out).
Here is the reference to how this used to be resolved in SR5;
SR5 p. 184 Sensor Attacks
If the target is trying to evade detection, make this an Opposed Test versus the target’s ... Infiltration (Vehicle) + Reaction [Handling] (driven vehicles), or Pilot + [Model] Stealth [Handling] (drones). Since vehicle stealth is limited by the driver’s ability, the dice applied for Infiltration skill should not exceed the driver’s appropriate Vehicle skill.
Translated to SR6 this would be Stealth or Piloting (whichever is lowest) + Reaction.
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Ok thanks for the feedback. I changed to stealth tests to remove the Piloting component, but I keep those ideas in mind for potential house rules.
So from what I'm reading in another topic, it seems I can completely ditch the two columns "Controlling remotely in AR/VR"?
That would certainly simplify things, but as Xenon pointed out, there seem to be quite a lot of inconsistencies in the book then, probably remnants from previous editions.
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it seems I can completely ditch the two columns "Controlling remotely in AR/VR"?
Yes.
there seem to be quite a lot of inconsistencies in the book then...
The only inconsistency so far seem to be in the Control Device action (in the matrix chapter).
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there seem to be quite a lot of inconsistencies in the book then...
The only inconsistency so far seem to be in the Control Device action (in the matrix chapter).
Also the VR requirement for Jump into Rigged Device in the Matrix chapter.
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This might or might not be intended.
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Well it's either that, or this part in the Rigger chapter is incorrect or at the very least extremely confusing:
Rigging can be done in AR and VR.
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So no simplification after all.
I'd like to follow-up with a few questions about action economy.
I assume that the Control Device Matrix action as it is described in the Matrix chapter is used to take control of a device that you don't own, or else it wouldn't be resisted by Firewall and the wording would be different.
When you own a drone, do you still need to spend an equivalent major action to control it remotely ?
If yes, I assume this action is unresisted and thus automatically succeeds?
The description of Control Device states:
You maintain control until you relinquish command or are forced out of the system.
What does "relinquishing command" mean? Is there anything that prevents you from remote controlling more than one device at a time?
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So no simplification after all.
I'd like to follow-up with a few questions about action economy.
I assume that the Control Device Matrix action as it is described in the Matrix chapter is used to take control of a device that you don't own, or else it wouldn't be resisted by Firewall and the wording would be different.
Basically, yes. Matrix Actions are largely presumed to be hacking contexts. But some actions, like Send Message and Control Device, are also presented to (in part) provide some timing structure to matrix usage that might go on during combat.
When you own a drone, do you still need to spend an equivalent major action to control it remotely ?
If yes, I assume this action is unresisted and thus automatically succeeds?
The description of Control Device states:
You maintain control until you relinquish command or are forced out of the system.
What does "relinquishing command" mean? Is there anything that prevents you from remote controlling more than one device at a time?
These rules appear to be written from the presumption that a 6e analogue for the 5e control hierarchy would be reiterated in the CRB. Unfortunately, one wasn't.
The concept of a control hierarchy works thusly:
1) Only one person is in control of a vehicle/drone at any given time.
2) In order to assume control when it's already under someone else's control, you have to exert control at a higher tier. Those tiers are, in order:
2a) Jumped In
2b) Remote Control (via AR or VR- doesn't matter)
2c) Local Control (using autopilot+autosoft dice pools, but tactical choices are being made by metahuman controller)
2d) Manual Control (physical contact, directly manipulating physical controls- naturally only applicable to vehicles)
2e) Autopilot
So, an example: A squad of corp-sec guards are on patrol, joined by a supporting Doberman drone. The drone is part of the site's Host network. While tagging along with the guards and just scanning for shadowrunners, the drone is probably under autopilot control. Why? Because it's a drone so there's no option for manual control. Someone might be spending their actions every round to direct the drone around (like a real life R/C pilot controlling their model airplane) but this is probably unlikely as the autopilot is perfectly capable of doing this without requiring yet another employee to micromanage the drone's every action.
When this patrol comes into contact with intruding shadowrunners, the drone might remain under autopilot control during the confrontation. But, maybe the drone is making bad decisions about what to do. "Hey drone, don't shoot that one, GEEK THE MAGE!" Right? In this kind of situation, the guard used the Command Drone action (pg. 41) and control hierarchy just jumped to Local Control. If, once the mage is geeked or the drone otherwise cannot continue to execute that command, the drone will either stop and await new commands or revert back down to Autopilot control, per GM discretion. The guard could also have explicitly worked in reverting back to Autopilot control, by saying "GEEK THE MAGE, then go back to your regular directives"
Maybe the drone's targeting autosoft isn't up to snuff and it's not proving capable of geeking that mage. One of the guards (or even a security spider, potentially) can use the Control Device matrix action to invoke Remote Control level of the control hierarchy. This is the tier akin to having control of a R/C aircraft in real life. So long as they're authorized to do so, it's correct they don't roll as if they were a hacker. It just works. And while in Remote Control, they roll THEIR attributes and skill dice rather than the drone rolling its own + autosoft. Once they quit actively controlling the drone, it quits being at this tier and "control is relinquished", down to Local Control or even Autopilot, as the GM determines (or as the controlling character wishes, if there are explicit wishes)
And of course, if a rigger or spider jumps in, that trumps all lower forms of control. You can't trump Jumped-in, as there's nothing higher.
What does "relinquishing command" mean? Is there anything that prevents you from remote controlling more than one device at a time?
In 5e the way you'd command numerous drones simultaneously was via "Captain's Chair", which was at the Local Control tier. You issue orders to multiple drones at once rather than one at a time (something you need a RCC to do) and then they all go forth and do the thing, using their own dice pools. If you want to use your OWN dice pools, you have to use Remote Control and you can only be in Remote Control of one thing at time (just as you can only be Jumped In to one thing at a time)
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So no simplification after all.
I'd like to follow-up with a few questions about action economy.
I assume that the Control Device Matrix action as it is described in the Matrix chapter is used to take control of a device that you don't own, or else it wouldn't be resisted by Firewall and the wording would be different.
When you own a drone, do you still need to spend an equivalent major action to control it remotely ?
If yes, I assume this action is unresisted and thus automatically succeeds?
The description of Control Device states:
You maintain control until you relinquish command or are forced out of the system.
What does "relinquishing command" mean? Is there anything that prevents you from remote controlling more than one device at a time?
Yes the action is used for controlling devices you don't own, so no you don't need to use it to control drone you own
Relinquish command ... yes you can only control one device at a time unless you are using an RCC to control a drone network
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Thanks for your answers guys.
Yes the action is used for controlling devices you don't own, so no you don't need to use it to control drone you own
So remote controlling one of your own drones has an advantage over "jumping in" the drone in that you don't need to spend a major action to initiate the control.
It's maybe not that relevant when you concentrate on a single drone, but can make a difference when switching between drones mid-fight to directly take control over the skirmishes where you are needed the most.
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Do you need a Control Rig to use an RCC? What if I'm a non-rigger shadowrunner who wants to keep his vehicle from being hacked?
Sorry for the newb question but It's almost 30 years since I played shadowrun and I never got a handle on all the technical trades.
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Do you need a Control Rig to use an RCC?
Nope. Anyone may use a RCC. It's basically a super duper commlink with extra functionality.
Also note that anyone can use drones with or without a RCC. And anyone (even riggers with control rigs!) can remotely control drones while NOT being jumped in.
What if I'm a non-rigger shadowrunner who wants to keep his vehicle from being hacked?
You should be doing for your vehicle what you're doing for all the rest of your gear: have a hacker on your own team to protect them :D Of course, that's a halfway sarcastic post since device limits makes 1 PAN for the whole team a fragging nightmare, but that's the ideal to aspire for.
Shy of that, the best thing to do entire is just turn your wireless off on the vehicle. However, that is probably a serious traffic safety violation (akin to driving at night with your headlights off). Next best thing would be to make the vehicle part of your PAN... and crank your commlink (or RCC, if you want to buy one) firewall to max.
Sorry for the newb question but It's almost 30 years since I played shadowrun and I never got a handle on all the technical trades.
No apologies needed! The Matrix is a highly technical sub-game in Shadowrun, and it fragging changes every edition ;)
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RCC doesn't come with a sim module, the control rig implant do. So if you don't have a control rig then you can't really enter VR (you are limited to AR). And without a control rig you obviously also cannot jump into drones and vehicles.
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RCC doesn't come with a sim module, the control rig implant do. So if you don't have a control rig then you can't really enter VR (you are limited to AR). And without a control rig you obviously also cannot jump into drones and vehicles.
While that's true...
1) I don't believe there's any reason you can't buy a sim module for the RCC so that you can then employ VR.
2) you don't NEED to be in VR to control a drone anyway. Need to be in VR to jump in, sure. But just direct a drone around? You can do that in AR.
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Control rig implant is mostly for wheelman riggers that tend to jump into their customized vehicle. While you can drive a vehicle yourself without one you get a lot of benefits if you have the implant. Doesn't really matter if you are connected to the matrix via A RCC or not (except for the noise reduction in case you are driving via remote).
RCC is mostly for Drone Swarm Operators that tend to command multiple drones at once. While you can also remote command drones without one (by using a commlink or a cyberdeck) you get a lot of benefits if you access the matrix via a RCC. Doesn't really matter if you have a control rig or not (except if you want to jump in).
Most riggers get both...
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device limits makes 1 PAN for the whole team a fragging nightmare, but that's the ideal to aspire for.
I never understood the purpose of the device limit (from a gameplay perspective). Adding more devices to a PAN is a double edged sword anyway:
- Since you don't hack a device, but the PAN it belongs to, by adding a device to a PAN, you increase the amount of devices a hacker can gain access to in one go.
- Noise considerations: when hacking a PAN, I assume that you calculate noise based on the distance to the nearest device in that PAN. Having devices in your PAN all over the place just makes it easier for a hacker to avoid noise. If your PAN includes a device that is located far away and being hacked, you may even have yourself noise issues when trying to counterattack the intruding hacker.
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The limit make sense when it comes to smarter devices such as Drones, Firing Platforms, Smart Turrets, Vehicles etc. Want to control more devices, get a better RCC. The limit does not make sense when it comes to all other wireless electronic devices that you carry on your body. Which is why it have been suggested that you, in addition to Slaved Devices (that still use the limit and is used for smarter devices that typically have an auto pilot of its own), can 'network' any number of wireless devices that you carry with you (no limit).
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The limit make sense when it comes to smarter devices such as Drones, Firing Platforms, Smart Turrets, Vehicles etc. Want to control more devices, get a better RCC.
The rules are a bit ambiguous here. As I understand it, whet the RCC really gives you is the ability to give a command to more than one drone with a single action. I assume you could still slave more than one drone to a commlink for instance, but then you'd need to command each drone individually.
Is it against the rules to have more than one PAN? If not and if you have separate squadrons of drones that will rarely be given the same command (scouting microdrones vs combat drones for example), a cheaper alternative could be to buy several smaller RCC. For example, instead of one Aztechnology Tlaloc (8 drones) you can get four Maersk Spider (4 drones each) that still have respectable defensive stats. These lower stats are somewhat compensated by the fact that each RCC constitutes a different, independent network that must be hacked separately.
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From the February 2020 errata file:
p. 268, Accessories table
Sim Modules have Availability —, cost +100¥;
Hot Sim has Availability 2(I), cost +250¥.
So it's 250 nuyen to get your RCC hotsim-capable, and you can already do cold-sim if you network it with your commlink I think, since commlinks come with normal sim modules by default.
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Not at books atm :-(
p. 268, Accessories table
In SR5 this was specifically a commlink accessory (remember having this discussion before).
But I guess since rules in SR6 are deliberately less defined it is probably a lot easier to interpret it as if this accessory can also be used for RCCs (as well as other devices perhaps?).
you can already do cold-sim if you network it with your commlink
In SR5 it was clear that you either used a commlink (which were cheap and could give you access to its SIM module if it was modded by one) or you used a RCC (which gave you access to its multiple parallel channels, sharing and noise reduction etc) - if you wanted to switch between them you had to reboot both devices.
In SR6 rules are (in general) a lot less clear. Having said that it seem as if you can have multiple devices in the network at least for the purpose of providing firewall and data processing attribute arrays you can pick from, but possible also to enable you to access the matrix via a RCC while at the same time going into VR by using the SIM module provided by your commlink that is part of the same network...?
Not sure where to draw the line actually. For example, it doesn't seem to be intended that you can access the matrix via a RCC while at the same time having a cyberdeck in your network providing you with Attack and Sleaze attributes....
commlinks come with normal sim modules by default.
This changed?
In SR5 commlinks typically only came with a SIM module by default if they were implanted
Otherwise you had to get the SIM module commlink accessory.
(for riggers sim SIM module came default with their Control Rig implant and for deckers it came, also with hot-sim, as default in Cyberdecks).
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Unless otherwise noted, these accessories are
compatible with commlinks, cyberdecks, and (with
GM permission) other electronic devices.
I wouldn't block you from getting it for an RCC.
A sim module must be accessed via a
direct neural interface, be it trodes, a datajack, or an
implanted commlink.
So you still need trodes or anything else giving DNI.
The implanted version of the commlink (p. 267)
comes with a sim module at no additional cost.
My bad, read too quick, you indeed need to buy separately for a non-implanted commlink.
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Thanks for looking up the citations for me (y)
So you still need trodes or anything else giving DNI.
Yeah, and since most riggers have a control rig the whole question is mostly moot.
But for the special case when you have a rigger with a RCC but without a control rig implant then your GM have 3 options:
- RCC does not come with SIM module and can not be upgraded with one and you can't use SIM module from any other device in your network, AR only for you! -but you can still command multiple drones from AR so it doesn't really matter
- RCC can be updated with a SIM module with the SIM module accessory
- You can use a commlink in your network that have been upgraded with a SIM module