Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: incrdbil on <04-01-11/1731:09>
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Another group I'm playing with is working up characters....
and apparently, Humans are extinct. elves are scoffed at. the world is composed of a minority of Dwarfs, and the rest is Orks and Trolls.
No one wants to play a human, as they are so points inefficient, or be an Elf. I think the highest Charisma in the group is a 2 so far.
I'm considering changing the cost of races like this. Every characteristic Point increase is +10 BP. Every point of maximum characteristic decrease subtracts 5 BP. Senses, other abilities will be costed at 5 to 10 BP each. (Dermal Armor is a 10, enhanced senses 5, the extra BP versus disease..5..or maybe less, its a pretty meaningless ability).
Anyone else doing this?
The only counterbalancing factor I can think is ramp up the hostile racism, and still don't think that'll matter.
I find myself fighting a lot of the starting character creation rules--the attribute points limit, the gear limit, the availability restriction, the extra surcharge attached to havign a 6 attribute or skill, and how many of the qualities need to be recosted to be a fair value.
, but the extinction of humans as a player choice is pretty alarming.
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My $Deity! THE HUMANIS POLICLUB WAS RIGHT!!!
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Make everything social
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Make everything social
thats just it--how do I quanitfy enough social penalty to equate to the BP benefoits? How many extra drive buys by Humanis Policlub members balances out the Trolls stat superiority over an Elf?
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Ok, here is my first thought: make it al a zero sum game. i've looked at the races, and assigned values to all of their benefits, and noted their mechanics based disadvantages. roleplaying social issues are not quanitfiable, so don't figure into it. any prejudice a Ork or Troll might face in a corporate world is more is easily made up by the fact runners dont spend much time in those circles, and a straight human or elf visting the underground is now at a disadvantage.
Metatype BP Tota lBonus Net Points
Human 0 +1 Edge (10 BP) 10 10
Ork 20 +3 Body +2 STR (+50) - 1 to CHA, LOG MAX (-10) 45 25
Low Light Vision (5 BP)
Dwarf 25 +1 BOD, + 2 STR + 1 WIL,(+40) -1 INI Max (-5) 40 15
Thermographic Vision (+5) +2 Body Dice vs Disease,(+3)
Reduced Move (-3)
Elf 30 +1 AGL, +2 CHA, Low Light Vision (+5) 35 5
Troll 40 +4 BOD +4 STR,(+80) 70 30
-1 to AGL, INT, INI, LOG Max, -2 CHA Max Bonus (-30)
Reach (+5), Dermal Armor (+5), Thermographic Vision (+5)
Move (+5)
ok, looking at the largest difference between what you pay for the race, and what you get, the Troll whens with 30 Net points in his favor. Elves come in last, only 5 points to the good.
Balancing Factor--the difference between each races total net points, and that of the most advantaged race (trolls) is made up in free positive quality points that exist outside of the normal BP limit rules)
Humans receive a Bonus 20 BP for positive Qualities. Orks: 5 Dwarfs: 15 Elves 25 Trolls : 0
Now, there are still advantages to the meta race: these positive quality points can't be diverted to skills, or attributes, directly, though he may save on positive qualities he meant to buy anyway and use them for that purpose.) Or the humans just take fewer negative qualities. Still if you want to eat bullets and wrestle critters, Ork and Troll is still your best bet. But now that weeenie human can take advantage of his priveleged social position, maybe with extra gear availability, a better education, or a trust fund. That Elf makea a great first impression, and is darn chatty.
thoughts?
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I don't seem to have this problem... perhaps because my players realize that being able to withstand every bullet and beat down every door is less useful than being able to avoid being hit (reaction), being able to hit (agility), not getting into a fight (charisma, intuition, logic, willpower, general roleplaying), getting through high security undetected (agility, reaction, charisma, intuition, logic, general roleplaying), &c. I could go on all day.
The reason for the pricing is that sure, the Troll has much higher body/strength + some other fringe (mostly combat related) benefits; however, a shadowrunner is still thoroughly outgunned and outnumbered. If you can survive on just your body & strength, then the problem may not be with the player's build choices. Give them more situations where they can't beat their way out of them, if you really want to encourage different build choices.
On the other hand, if everyone is having a fun time at the table, is there really a problem that needs fixing?
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Try bluffing your way into a Japanese Corporation as anything other than a Human. Good luck.
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No kidding. Make them run against Yakashima for a laugh or two. "Um....I'm tall for my age? ;D"
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Don't want to use your bad Japanese accent?
Humanis-Alligned A-Corporation. Same issue, different ethnicity.
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Don't want to use your bad Japanese accent?
Nobody wants to hear my bad Japanese accent. I sound like a drunk samurai with a speech impediment.
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I've been told that if I do my Irish accent again, I'll be beaten. :P
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Try bluffing your way into a Japanese Corporation as anything other than a Human. Good luck.
thats just it. Enforcing such conventiosn leads to them not taking such a run, or simply resorting to other methods. (Bribery, blackmail, posing as disposable riff raff or the good old reliable ultra-violence) I coudl structure every adventure to punish them for their character choices, force them into missions and situations they are ill suited for, but that's not a very fun option, and will probably lead to a dead game in short order. they'll feel like i'm abusing them because they went with what seemd to be the direction the rules pushed them.
Even if I introduced a firm mechanic in all social interactions outiside of other orks and trolls that, trolls get x penalty, orks get Y penalty, (and Elves get a little bonus), I'm not sure if that will make up. They'll just abandon such interactions, and maybe one player will be come the token human or elf to be a face. (Honestly, I havent heard a bit of interest in the group of beign a face type, probably the old mage defaults as the spokesman bit again.
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You could always just run with it and set the game in some Third World hellhole, a war zone, or a feral city or something then. Plenty of opportunities for ass kicking, head crushing, and strong arming things there.
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You could always just run with it and set the game in some Third World hellhole, a war zone, or a feral city or something then. Plenty of opportunities for ass kicking, head crushing, and strong arming things there.
The game already exists mostly in Seattle. :P
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The game already exists mostly in Seattle. :P
:D Good point.
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How do they interact with their contacts? That is social skills. How about when they meet with the Johnson? If they don't have some negotiation then they get his terms whatever they might be. You say they walk away from any job that isn't right up their alley. Then say alright fair enough. A month passes, pay rent etc. then pitch the next adventure. If they decline again same thing. It doesn't take long to realize that without money coming in it is hard to pay the bills. Remember desperate people do desperate things.
Even if they are combat heavy remember anti-muscle rule #1. Always hit the troll(or other tank type) with a mana spell.
Imagine everyones dispair when the mage uses control actions on the biggest troll and has him starting to hack/attack the second toughest character.
Another option is grenades, and they don't have to be the type that go boom and make chunky salsa. Nuero stun can be nasty, and there is much worse out there if someone wants or feels they need to use it.
Now I'm not saying that you should always punish the team, but a few of these things can start to lead the game back the way you want it to.
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First of most gear cost trolls +50% due to nescesary size modification. Second, if they don't see the usefulness of a high Cha character they are fools, that's about the most polite way I can say it. Roleplay another runner team talking about how they got significantly more money for the same type of job they just got peanuts for.
They do understand this ain't no hack and slash fest with guns right?
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Alternately, if they want a hack-n-slash game, with minimal social interaction, & no concerns for anything outside bash-door, bash-skull, get-money, give it to them. That is, of course, assuming that that's the sort of game you want them to play.
Giving freebie points to the races they don't like is only marginally different from "punishing" them by bringing to bear the setting that is Shadowrun. They'll just use the bonus points to make more combat monkeys, just with a different metatype written down on the character sheet. Nothing wrong with it, if everyone at the table is having fun, but I don't see how it serves any purpose what-so-ever. It's still smash, grab, shoot, scoot.
You seem to really want a game that's more than hack-n-slash. That doesn't mean rewarding players who choose "less optimal" combat monkey metatypes, it means making sure they realize how much easier it actually would be to not blow up the target facility to get rid of the prototype that's inside. If, instead, they sneak inside (regardless of metatype), get past the security, and secure the prototype; then they can enjoy selling the prototype later (and possibly pick up some other odds and ends while they're there).
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I think the solution with the positive qualities will help encourage some human and elf PC's, as they players will see less shortchanging. It's a mechanical thing thats the problem. In theorey, they can have a decently effective ork 'face' (with human looking) since he'd effectively have more BP to spend than a human. I am sure they'ld nominate one token face player.
Just trying to even the playing field, which is titlted against human and elf characters in terms.
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I disagree that the playing field is tilted against elves. They may not get the body and strength bonuses that orks and trolls do, but they can make great combat characters, and have a decent (even great relatively) charisma to boot. That isn't even looking at the elven shamatic mage who gets to use the boosted charisma to help resist drain, control more spirits etc.
It depends how you want to build your character to which race is best suited. If all you care about is brawn and body then yes go troll or ork. However, if you want something with some stealth or surprise factor (not just the sneaking kind) then elves make a great choice.
An elf gun adept is just down right sick. you can buy up your agility then boost it, take your gun type of choice to 5 or 6 specialize then take a couple of levels of improved ability and you are quickly throwing close to 20 dice per shot. Double tapping and you can down a lot of things. Add in some mystic armor and you can do alright at resisting attacks too. Or if you want to round out your staying power add magic resistance so when the mage uses the adage of "Hit the tank with mana spells" you have more dice to resist with and you can be spooky.
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I disagree that the playing field is tilted against elves. They may not get the body and strength bonuses that orks and trolls do, but they can make great combat characters, and have a decent (even great relatively) charisma to boot. That isn't even looking at the elven shamatic mage who gets to use the boosted charisma to help resist drain, control more spirits etc.
It's simple math. An elf character gets a net gain of 5 points. A Troll gets 30, and Ork 25. Trolls and Orks get more character points than elves or humans, players will build to that.
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Ah, ROLL Players rather than ROLE Players...
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It has nothing to do with role playing--not thatplayers should be penalized for roleplaying, which is sort of the situation here.
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Play up the racism. Use the tables and see how far no charisma gets them.
Honestly though, if they're having fun let them. I like to cut loose every once in a while and just go wreck something. Are the majority of your games serious? Could they be just blowing off some steam?
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Sometimes you have Ice Cold Mirrorshades and Trenchcoats, other times you want Pink Mohawks, Mirrorshades and Razor Blades!
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Looking at those net points
Human: 0
Dwarf: 15
Elf: 5
Orc: 25
Troll: 30
Play up the racism.
Those net points really mirror the "strength" of prejudice towards those metahumans. (Maybe a little high for dwarves, 10 would be more inline with my thinking, but then again I like dwarves, hehe).
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I could never stand the short races in any game I played, except kobalds. The Kobald bard from NWN1/2 warmed my heart to them.
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A thought occurred. Dwarfds and Trolsl face extra expenses and difficulties just in general due to size. Places they can fit in, or sit comfortably, gear costs adjustments and so on. so I adjusted their net points bonus in both cases. So now everyone gets 5 points less (except trolls who stay at zero in bonus qualities). So now it looks like this:
Metatype BP Total Bonus Net Points
Human 0 +1 Edge (10 BP) 10 10
Ork 20 +3 Body +2 STR (+50) - 1 to CHA, LOG MAX (-10) 45 25 Low Light Vision (5 BP)
Dwarf 25 +1 BOD, + 2 STR + 1 WIL,(+40) -1 INI Max (-5) 35 10
Thermographic Vision (+5) +2 Body Dice vs Disease,(+3)
Reduced Move (-3) Size Adjustment (-5)
Elf 30 +1 AGL, +2 CHA, Low Light Vision (+5) 35 5
Troll 40 +4 BOD +4 STR,(+80) 65 25
-1 to AGL, INT, INI, LOG Max, -2 CHA Max Bonus (-30)
Reach (+5), Dermal Armor (+5), Thermographic Vision (+5)
Enhanced Move (+5) (Size Adjustment -5)
Balancing Factor
These must be spent on positive qualities, and not transferred to anything else.
Humans 15
Dwarfs: 10
Elves 20
Trolls and Orks: 0
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It has nothing to do with role playing--not thatplayers should be penalized for roleplaying, which is sort of the situation here.
My preferred solution is to raise caps, allowing humans more leeway in their point spread in order to simulate their far greater diversity.
So, using a base of 400bp, a human could spend up to
220bp on attributes
55bp on gear
40bp worth of pos/neg qualities
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I disagree that the playing field is tilted against elves. They may not get the body and strength bonuses that orks and trolls do, but they can make great combat characters, and have a decent (even great relatively) charisma to boot. That isn't even looking at the elven shamatic mage who gets to use the boosted charisma to help resist drain, control more spirits etc.
It's simple math. An elf character gets a net gain of 5 points. A Troll gets 30, and Ork 25. Trolls and Orks get more character points than elves or humans, players will build to that.
It's not "simple math", depending on the situation, Body 4 /= Agility 4 /= Charisma 4. After all, if it were that "simple", you should see an equal distribution of players in your group looking to have Charisma, Intuition, Edge, &c at 4 as Body / Strength at 4 (or higher.
The fact of the matter is that the players in this group seem to view high body / strength as far more important than Agility, Charisma, Intuition. This is nothing to do with math, but play style.
Look at that Ork vs Elf, again. You say that the Elf is a weaker race. Ever build a mage with a penchant for summoning? At that point, 2 free points of charisma is a god-send. And trust me, the guy running around with 3 or 4 bound spirits scares me more than a troll with Body 10, Strength 10, Charisma 2, Willpower 3.
It's called the spirits Fear him (he fails to resist, with his average Willpower, if the Spirit's semi-competent). At that point, he has to make a Charisma + Willpower roll just to face the elf's spirits. That's when the elf comes out of hiding & intimidates him (with +2 for outnumbering the subject, +2 for wielding obvious magic, -2 b/c the troll is carrying an obvious weapon). The troll resists with Charisma + Intimidation, of which he has none, so he's throwing 1 die, assuming no negative modifiers (and if he's feared, I'm imposing some). Congratulations, your big scary troll has been intimidated into surrendering by an elf with Body 2, Strength 2 and just a little fore-thought.
There is no "simple math" to building a 3-dimensional character capable of handling varied and complex problems. There is only simple math if you focus on one aspect of the game at the expense of all others. Have these guys ever met a Control Thoughts spell?
What about Stunbolt? So much for their armor and body, it's 100% willpower, both on resistance and the damage track affected. Once they're one-shotted a few times by that Body 1, Strength 1, Reaction 6, Intuition 6, Magic 6 (see, math builds one-trick ponies, dangerous one-trick ponies, but none-the-less, this guy is going before your trolls and orks) combat mage, they'll think twice before assuming that everything boils down to two stats.
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Looking at it from a purely mechanical standpoint of gain for BP investment, I see an imbalance. Focusing on specific roles or very specialized builds doesn't erase that. I'm trying to focus on what the character will be, what resources he has to make the character he wants using effective build points. Trolls and Orks effectively have more build points. Dwarves fare a little better, while humans, then elves plod in last. The Elf might have a higher Charisma maximum. He's got a free boost in that direction, but such a boost doesn't happen in a vacuum. Body is a desired characteristic. Enough STR to lift a credstick or move in combat with minimal protective gear and equipment is needed. An Ork Mage can go with a fairly minimum body for an Ork, have a good score, and he's effectively got 25 points more to put into stats than the elf. Yes, he does have a normal max of 5 in CHA or LOG. Can the elf get a higher CHA maximum than the Orc? Certainly, but ut he starts in a build point hole, from the start in order to get there in comparison.
And this is using the character build most favorable to an elf. Looking at an elf or human who doesn't play a mage, but any other character type, they are behind the power curve. I can take an Ork, buy 'human looking' and be an equally talented (and still tougher) face than a human character from the extra points I have to work with just by leaving BOD and STR at default scores. as for human and elf physical adepts or Street Samurai..they may as well go stand in an unemployment line.
Overall, I'm very satisfied with SR4's build system--this discussions narrow focusing on one of the few sticky areas may make it appear that I'm not, but believe me, I far prefer this to prior editions, or the priority system. There are very few house tweaks I'm making to this game, so please don't take this discussion one issue as an attack on the system.
So to perhaps focus the discussion, I'm going to focus to on commentary on different ways to address this in my campaign. I think I've made stated my motivation and thoughts on why I feel the need to do something, and any more detail would be repetitious, and not adding anything new beyond what I've said. It's not that I don't want to continue the discussion, I would just like ot focus more on the 'what to do' than the why. If you don't agree, well, there are a million different ways to approach a game, and there's no need for perfect agreement. The game isn't broken either way, by keeping the standard rules, or with my alterations, in the long view, and I understand and respect the views that not change is needed. it's just on some level, as a GM, it just doesn't feel fair to me, and I'm seeing reactions from my group that reinforce it, and I have to work with what I've got.
What I'd like to see is the house rule suggestions from others on this issue, or if you think the costs I'm assigning are too little/too much, or any other factors I may have overlooked, like when I initially overlooked the size adjustment costs for Dwarf and Troll characters. I'd love to see and discuss those.
I really did consider to play up the racism angle. If my game was centered on a very specific environment (a corporate sponsored team, or a team working regularly for or employed by for a criminal organization or government), I could just tack on a 'racism' modifier and call it a day. Given that in this campaign the team works for a certain sponsor who is totally neutral on matters of race, it wouldn't be quite as effective as perhaps in other situations. Being a corporate team working for a Japanese megacorp with race prejudices..yes, that would probably do it.
I'm contemplating another possible alteration--not award positive quality points, but change build point costs. Charge every race their 'total' bonus score I came up with before, and then subtract the human score, making the human race the zero build point default again.
That would look like this:
Human: 0
Elf: 25
Dwarf: 25
Ork 35
Troll 55
Better or worse than using free positive qualities? This may be more mechanically pure than equating the positive quality bonus to the effects of race in a characters life prior to running.
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It has nothing to do with role playing--not thatplayers should be penalized for roleplaying, which is sort of the situation here.
My preferred solution is to raise caps, allowing humans more leeway in their point spread in order to simulate their far greater diversity.
So, using a base of 400bp, a human could spend up to
220bp on attributes
55bp on gear
40bp worth of pos/neg qualities
Tinkering with caps is appealing as well. Maybe instead of positive build points, I could make those discretionary BP that can be applied above caps in various areas. But that would end run the requirement to buy certain poitive qualities to exceed caps. Though frankly i can see mysefl discarding category caps in the future...still, a good option to dwell on, thanks!
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All it takes is one Pornomancer and a big bottle of Vodka to take down the whole group.
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Incrdbil your argument of its simple math is flawed. If you want a higher str and body then yes troll or ork is the way to go. If you want a higher agility like in the example I used earlier then an elf gives you an advantage in that it gives you the addition in the area that you want to excel. Same with a charisma based mage.
In my playing I see many more elves then any of the other races. Dwarves are probably the least used of the metahumans, and humans are the least played race at this point. I have GM'd both missions and stand alone games at the last two Gencons and this is what I saw.
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You are only looking at character creation which is only part of the whole picture. Humans are the norm there are more humans than any other race. The world is built for human sized characters. Trolls have to pay more for gear, and they have a hard time moving around in buildings.
Orcs are heavily discriminated against. Sure you can get past that with human looking but if the people you tricked find out they are not going to be happy.
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Yes I dropped a wall of text. Sorry. read the first paragraph and the last for the short versions
As a long time GM for Shadowrun let me tell you there are a few things you just have to accept. There are problems endemic to the system, balancing the races is one of them. The 4th edition of Shadowrun has done the best job of creating equal opportunity mechanics of any editions. When compared to the spliced together mechanics of first edition,the quick or the dead rule of 2nd edition, or the third edition “magic above all else” 4th edition really has integrated magic, hacking, combat and even social skills into the team dynamic far better than any previous edition. Their however remain lingering issues of balance and unanticipated consequences of balancing other mechanics. First off not every attribute has the same value all the time for every character. Look what every attribute is used for by every character. I am not including the casting of magic, rigging, or technomancy (Yet) since only certain types of characters can use their attributes in that way.
body
resists all forms of physical damage (easily the most common type of damage in Shadowrun)
resists toxins
resists disease
determines the amount of armor you can carry
does not degrade if used to defend more than once per initiative pass
determines your physical damage track
Agility
linked to EVERY physical combat attack skill. It is half your attack die pool. In Shadowrun characters get into fights. Otherwise this game could be called spreadsheets and meetings.
Reaction
determines your initiative value
used to defend against physical attacks
degrades if used to defend against more than one attack per initiative pass
used for every type of pilot skill check
Strength
determines at least in part how hard you hit in most melee combat scenarios
determines how much stuff you can carry.
linked to 3 out of 4 of the skills in the athletics skill group
Charisma
Linked to ALL Social Skills
used as damage for force of will attacks.
Intuition
Linked to most stealth and perception based skills.
A good amount of stealth allows you to avoid fights and set up ambushes when you do have to fight.
perception is your defense against surprise
The other attribute used to determine initiative
Logic
Used for all technical skills
though linked to many hacking skills is rarely used in conjunction with those skills
Willpower
your primary defense from mana spells
used to resist or augment some social tests
determines your mental damage track
If we look at numerically all the things that attributes can be used for body, agility, reaction, and strength appear to be of the most use to all shadowrunners. That makes orcs and trolls appear more attractive o paper. Anyone who has played this game longer than 5 seconds will tell you that is not necessarily true. Selection of roles such as hacking, rigging, technomancy alter the balance of attributes significantly. Elves make great shamans due to their high charisma. dwarves and elves are really good choices for technomancers due to their bonuses to mental attributes. Humans suffer from their greatest strength thye have no penalties to attributes but the only bonus they receive is to edge. Hackers since most of their dice polls are based off skills and programs can really be any race. For rigging the only race that really suffers a penalty attribute wise is dwarfs since thier penalized attribute (reaction) is related to the main skill of the archetype (pilot) Orcs and trolls while they gain no bonuses to these specialized roles retain their versatility as a shadowrunner due to their exemplary physical fitness.
Part 2 Anachronisms, Game balance, and mechanic changes.
Another issue that seems to unbalance certain races in this edition are the basic mechanics change of going from a target number to a hit system. Under older editions of SR the larger bonuses of races like Orks and Trolls were offset by the larger penalties suffered. For example the lower willpower of a troll was a balancing factor since not only did they suffer a penalty to their effective defense to mana spells but also their dice to resist. Under 4th edition with the hit system all the troll character suffers is a minor loss to die pool. Compare the results
Troll street muscle is attacked by a force 6 manabolt spell cast from a sorcery 5 against a will power of 4. Attacking Magician allocates 5 dice from magic pool if applicable.
Now if I remember my 3rd edition magic clearly the above attack would roll 11 dice force plus magic pool allocation and statistically would receive 5.5 gross successes against a target number of 4. The troll in this example rolling four dice to resist at a TN of 6 would receive .66 successes leaving 4.84 net successes. In other words even if the spell was cast at moderate damage due to staging the troll is dead.
Under 4th edition equating where applicable the same scenario a force 6 manabolt we will assume a magic of 5 and sorcery of 5 all other numbers remain the same.
The caster in this example would roll 10 dice against a hit number of 5 scoring 3.3 successes. The troll muscle rolling his 4 dice for willpower resistance test would receive 1.33 successes. This would leave the magician with approximately 2 net successes dealing force of the spell 6 plus 1 extra success for a total of 7 damage. This troll is still up and probably really mad
Now also consider another mechanics change to attributes. In previous editions their were six total physical and mental attributes in this edition there are eight. When you consider the attributes divided were the attributes typically used as penalties for dwarves, orcs and trolls the situation becomes even more imbalanced. Quickness became agility and reaction. Intelligence became logic and intuition Orks for example only lose out on a little charisma and logic for big bonuses to body and strength. Trolls get absolutely huge bonuses to body and strength. This edition compared to previous editions trolls lost their willpower penalty removing the troll racial Achilles heel to mana spells.
Another mechanical change that had unintended consequences to racial balance in this edition is how augmented racial maximum caps are calculated. When you consider that the largest penalty to an attribute's augmented maximum is 2 points. Note also through gene treatment and positive qualities most negative stats can be offset to at least human racial levels. There is no way in the system for a human to achieve the body of a Troll or Orc while a troll through exceptional attribute and genetech could achieve the maximum augmented agility of a normal Elf. Yes an elf through exceptional atttribute and genetech could go higher by a total of two dice on quickness a troll will be able to on body receive a theoretical dice pool of eighteen compared to a human or elf's twelve.
In conclusion, Humans and elves will never be able to match some of the dice pools achievable by orks and trolls on certain stats. In contrast Orcs and trolls will never be able to reach the dice pools of Humans and elves in certain stats though by a much smaller margin. The stat bonuses metahumans enjoy as they stand right now are an anachronism to previous editions and do unbalance certain races from a quantifiable mathematics perspective. There are other non quantifiable considerations such as design of society and racism that can be used as balancing factors to a point.
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Warewolf, that was an amazing post. Wow. +1
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Another thing to consider, again going to racism, is the fact that we're dealing with the small percentage of SINless that have the Cojones willing to risk body and mind to be Shadowrunners, a good size of which are Orks and Trolls. Most "Shadowrunners" are, frankly, dumb muscle doing whatever they can for the money. So this fits storywise as well. The Bot'Kham, for instance, is an All Ork team related to the infamous Shadowrunner of the '50s, Kham. My secondary character, Murphy, is affiliated to them by being some kind of second-cousin or some such. (Ork families are hard to figure out due to litters.).
The flipside is that there area also a lot of Elven, Dwarven, and Human SINless putting their lives on the line as well, usually in other roles, but there as well.
I said it once, I'll say it again, "The right tools for the right job. And, man, are these guys ever a bunch of tools!"
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Something that I'll put in about the characters thinking they are meat shields that can take anything:
I have never, ever, EVER had a problem killing anyone in any incarnation of Shadowrun (as a GM or a player).
But, either as a GM or a player, I have had LOTS of trouble trying to keep a character alive.
While SR can be played as a hack-n-slash game (any RPG can), hacking and slashing tends to go through characters pretty quickly (as mentioned above). A balanced team, making intelligent choices and using smart tactics on a run, will stay alive (and get paid) a lot more and a lot more often. Combat characters in SR are support characters. They are there if/when the proverbial hits the fan.
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One of my favorite things to do as a GM is to assume half the runners money will come from their Negotiation. I'll offer around 5k, with an extra 1k per net hit on a Negotiation test. This makes a Face invaluable.
Not to mention legwork. You can only garner so much info on a Data Search and without Etiquette or Con, those bribes to get the info you need can get awfully pricey.
If you know what type of game you want to play, carrot and stick your players until they think trading in that silly old Troll for a Tailored Pheromoned Elf was their idea.
Personally, I think you are giving to much thought into "balance." The value of certain stats over others has been given by far more eloquent than myself, but I think you'll find that your group just looked at the number, did some quick arithmetic and determined that Orcs and Trolls have higher numbers and are, therefore, better. Give them a few sessions of some well rounded games, where they aren't slashing their way though an Ares facility and they'll start to complain that their hacker never uses his Strength stat.
After a few games like that, they'll start to wonder why they didn't play humans in the first place.
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My 2c:
I'm a roleplayer, and I play with roleplayers. I've always punished rollplayers when I GMed and always played in groups that punished rollplayers. This isn't an issue for my groups. That being said I think you should give by default the trait Human Looking to humans when determining their social bonus (and Elf looking to elves for there's). That may even the odds in your net totals.
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Mind you I am doing none of this in my campaign at this time. If I were to try to balance the races at character creation and post character creation this is what I would do.
Balancing humans
At character creation a human character may choose one of the following advantages for thier race in addition to the plus one edge
improved attributes
one of characters attributes are considered to have the exceptional attribute positive quality. One of the issues with humans is that they will always be mediocre at their role statistically. this gives humans a better flavor of mediocre.
Highly skilled
The character receives 20 free build points at character creation that may only be used to buy skills or skill groups
Just a little better
The character may take 20 more points of positive qualities than normal. The character may also take 20 more points of negative qualities if they desire. The extra quality points allow unmatched flexibility and give humans a little more flavor.
Toys
The character may take 20 more BP for gear than normal. The world is still made for humans so a lot of things would just be cheaper for them.
Balancing Meta's gets a little trickier. I would probably reduce the BP costs for Orks and trolls and reduce thier body and strength by 1 each. Buffing elves and dwarves seems impractical.
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My 2c:
I'm a roleplayer, and I play with roleplayers. I've always punished rollplayers when I GMed and always played in groups that punished rollplayers. This isn't an issue for my groups. That being said I think you should give by default the trait Human Looking to humans when determining their social bonus (and Elf looking to elves for there's). That may even the odds in your net totals.
Taking human looking as a valuation would change the totals by 5 points. It's a very situational value, it depends upon the campaign and who is doing the viewing...but it does make a useable yardstick for certain campaigns.
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Total power is only one measure of game balance. Focused power is a bigger factor at the table in my experience. When you're considering an elf or troll for a magician character, it doesn't matter that the troll's attributes will be better overall. What matters is that the elf is better at the specialty. Without augmentation, a soft-maxed elf rolls 12 dice for drain tests, while a troll only gets 9. In practice, that means that the elf can safely cast spells with 2 more Force than the troll can, which increases damage by up to +4 DV. The gap widens further once you include augmentations.
Sure, the troll can soak up a lot more damage, but that doesn't matter much when you're invisible and levitating out of reach. Having more overall power doesn't help much when there's little use for it. Useful, focused power is what counts.
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Total power is only one measure of game balance. Focused power is a bigger factor at the table in my experience.
Sure, the troll can soak up a lot more damage, but that doesn't matter much when you're invisible and levitating out of reach. Having more overall power doesn't help much when there's little use for it. Useful, focused power is what counts.
Good post
Defensive power always counts unless you can guarantee the defender will never get off a second shot. A magician can levitate and float invisibly all they want but as soon as that magician runs a cross an enemy with a big gun and an ultrasound sight or radar implant the added diversity and overall power of that orc or troll means a lot more. Focused power is certainly a consideration but sometimes you have to be prepared for things to not go your way.
as far as focused power goes I think the biggest complaint about a lot of the races is that the range of focused power of certain races far outweighs the focused power of other races.
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By "range," do you mean the variety of things you can do well, or the degree at which you do them better?
If you mean variety: Elves beat trolls at sniping, sneaking, grifting, hacking, and magic. Trolls beat elves at close combat and getting shot at. Yes, trolls are very very good at those things, but I think the game is designed such that even the toughest characters will eventually die without the mission skills to back them up, and the elves are just plain better at the mission skills.
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Actually, IIRC, Trolls use Elves to beat things in close combat. As a club.
Dwarves are ranged weapons for Trolls. :P
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Strength is important? :o
When did this happen?
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It's important if you want to kill things to death with your fists. Otherwise, Agility is far more important.
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Or your programs. Or your complex forms. Or your willpower. Or...well, it all depends on what you are doing.
Close combat beatery is only good for close combat. For close quarters battle, OTOH, you need a combination of weapons and tactics to defeat your foes. And defeat can (and often does) include "getting away from the opposition with your objectives intact."
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The name of the game is getting out, not racking up a body count.
Well, Kane would say differently, but he's special. :P
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What is the max value in each attribute and which race has that value? Also what is the average of each attribute (taking the min and max from each race and finding the average) and how does the racial average of each race compare to it?
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You have to remember that the player can choose what race he wants to be. the races balance out in that their stat maximums cap differently, so each race is geared toward a different job.
This is not to say that you can't make any race into whatever you want it to be, only that certain races do certain jobs better.
For example, if someone wants to be a really good Face or Shaman, they might pick Elf since those jobs are Charisma based.
If someone just wants to run into the middle of the fray and either beat the living piss out of things with his fists then you'd probably pick a troll.
I personally have made 2 human street samurai and 1 troll cyberer, and I prefer the humans. (the troll has a lot more physical damage boxes but will end up being a lot harder to advance due to loss of essence in cyberware.)
It should never bother you as a GM that players choose things you don't like or understand, it's about giving the players a good game. What you can do is enforce players in ROLE PLAYING their race. they should not be choosing a race just for stats, there's a whole mentality within each metatype. ~how trolls view human, how elves view trolls, how humans feel about any given metatype-even other humans.~
Each character must have his own personality, not just shooting stats, otherwise you're just playing futuristic DnD.
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You have to remember that the player can choose what race he wants to be. the races balance out in that their stat maximums cap differently, so each race is geared toward a different job.
This is not to say that you can't make any race into whatever you want it to be, only that certain races do certain jobs better.
For example, if someone wants to be a really good Face or Shaman, they might pick Elf since those jobs are Charisma based.
If someone just wants to run into the middle of the fray and either beat the living piss out of things with his fists then you'd probably pick a troll.
I personally have made 2 human street samurai and 1 troll cyberer, and I prefer the humans. (the troll has a lot more physical damage boxes but will end up being a lot harder to advance due to loss of essence in cyberware.)
It should never bother you as a GM that players choose things you don't like or understand, it's about giving the players a good game. What you can do is enforce players in ROLE PLAYING their race. they should not be choosing a race just for stats, there's a whole mentality within each metatype. ~how trolls view human, how elves view trolls, how humans feel about any given metatype-even other humans.~
Each character must have his own personality, not just shooting stats, otherwise you're just playing futuristic DnD.
Which is why 90% of all faces should be human (the last 10% being elves with exceptions for the other races if there is a good backstory). Any GM worth their weight in gold will play up the ease that a human face has in getting jobs for the group over any other race (especially outside NA and race specific areas like the Tirs). I run in a campaign in Hong Kong and we really play up the fact that the Dwarf in the group gets the butt end from every NPC (mind you it doesn't help he has a Charisma of 2).
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Each character must have his own personality, not just shooting stats, otherwise you're just playing futuristic DnD.
DnD, like any RPG, has as much roleplaying as the group playing is willing and interested in doing. I've had a plain battletech (not mechwarrior) mercenary "campaign" (the initial idea was basically playing battletech fights, getting paid and getting more/better mechs, ie all explosions and bookwork) have more rp than some vampire games I've played in. Totally OT and I appologize but the myth of no rp in DnD is a pet peeve of mine.
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Duly Noted. My friends and I run a D&D4e every friday night. and we have played in many other peoples' games. We have yet to find a more creative group than ours in this area--We have a LOT of fun with it. I know it's not just about the fights and stats.
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Which is why 90% of all faces should be human (the last 10% being elves with exceptions for the other races if there is a good backstory). Any GM worth their weight in gold will play up the ease that a human face has in getting jobs for the group over any other race (especially outside NA and race specific areas like the Tirs). I run in a campaign in Hong Kong and we really play up the fact that the Dwarf in the group gets the butt end from every NPC (mind you it doesn't help he has a Charisma of 2).
No one "should" do anything besides have a good time. If you want to portray prejudice, that's totally cool, but SR is still a rules-based game, and there is a mechanic for that. "Never trust an elf" or "Blah-blah, dirty Trogs" translates into a starting social penalty of -2 for an existing prejudice. Then there's an etiquette roll. The elf face kills it with a huge DP, and suddenly, "never trust an elf" becomes "this guy is really sharp" and your boy has a +2 bonus now because they're suddenly friendly. It's no guarantee, and as an etiquette test it basically has a threshold 1-2 higher than what a human might see, but to a face, prejudice is just a speedbump.
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Which is why 90% of all faces should be human (the last 10% being elves with exceptions for the other races if there is a good backstory). Any GM worth their weight in gold will play up the ease that a human face has in getting jobs for the group over any other race (especially outside NA and race specific areas like the Tirs). I run in a campaign in Hong Kong and we really play up the fact that the Dwarf in the group gets the butt end from every NPC (mind you it doesn't help he has a Charisma of 2).
No one "should" do anything besides have a good time. If you want to portray prejudice, that's totally cool, but SR is still a rules-based game, and there is a mechanic for that. "Never trust an elf" or "Blah-blah, dirty Trogs" translates into a starting social penalty of -2 for an existing prejudice. Then there's an etiquette roll. The elf face kills it with a huge DP, and suddenly, "never trust an elf" becomes "this guy is really sharp" and your boy has a +2 bonus now because they're suddenly friendly. It's no guarantee, and as an etiquette test it basically has a threshold 1-2 higher than what a human might see, but to a face, prejudice is just a speedbump.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the -2 penalty is just the basic level of prejudice (the type were if the person was called a racist they would instantly back down but they would never hold an elevator door for you). I would amp up the penalty for more hostile individuals like Japanese Corps, Elitists, and your average openly racist individuals (yeah humanists!).
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For actual Humanis people and Japanese gene purists, you could very easily start their bias off at enemy for -4 to all social tests. ;D
There are most definitely crowds where being a human, national is really, really important.
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Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Humanis Policlub a terrorist organization geared up for genocide against all metaraces besides humans? Isn't a little hard to say "This is why you should be a human. Look at all the discrimination!" Humanis members wouldn't bother to start with a penalty to charisma based rolls. I would believe they would shoot an elf or troll first and ask questions never.
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No, Humanis has alleged ties to those organizations such as Alamos 20K. Humanis as of now is more of a political group that has a pro human agenda, not so much a terrorist group (though you can be sure a Humanis rolodex has a few Alamos 20K member's phone numbers in it). In fact, they do quite a lot of charitable work in Human communities to put on a good face.
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It's simple. you want to show them what social skills can do create a dryad adept who has
charisa 7, con 5 persuasion 5 etiquette 4 negotiation 4
-PQ
First Impression
-Magic
Commanding Voice
kinesics 4
-Bioware all alpha grade
tailored pheremones 3
enhanced pheremone receptors 4
attention co processor 3
radar censor 4
Have this Dryad be working against them for whatever reason (maybe they're racist against elves) and when they confront her have there be a corporate patrol, or a KE Tactical team show up, and convince them that the dryad is supposed to be there and is being assaulted by the players. then let them make their arguments, The dryad will roll charisma + con + 25 dice in front of the players. go crazy and spend an edge on the roll too. then roll again to persuade the security team not to frag the team where they stand. BTW, this character can be made with 400 bps.
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Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Humanis Policlub a terrorist organization geared up for genocide against all metaraces besides humans? Isn't a little hard to say "This is why you should be a human. Look at all the discrimination!" Humanis members wouldn't bother to start with a penalty to charisma based rolls. I would believe they would shoot an elf or troll first and ask questions never.
Depends on the group. Some will string up a bunch of "Trogs and Faeries" and burn crosses and have a good ol' time.
Others will use more subtle and socially acceptable methods. *Cough*Brackhaven*Cough*
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Depends on the group. Some will string up a bunch of "Trogs and Faeries" and burn crosses and have a good ol' time.
Others will use more subtle and socially acceptable methods. *Cough*Brackhaven*Cough*
I can believe that. I guess what always comes to my mind when I think of Humanis was the story "Buzzkill" at the beginning of the SR4 handbook where the organization was trying to poison an energy drink that had been hyped up for metahumans. they have to be subtle at times, heh.
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I can't suggest "Sons of Anarchy" enough for examples of how to show Shadowrun Organizations.
In this case, there are a few types of Skinheads shown in the series. Some are the "Beat the coloured out of town, or sell them Meth and let them kill themselves"-variety, and some are the "We'll just put them out of business in a calm, legal manner"-type.
And then there's the "Good Guys", which is an Outlaw MC that runs guns. You really, really, REALLY don't want to mess with their morals. Good suggestion: Don't pick a fight with the old guy wearing the oxygen tank. Really, don't.
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Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Humanis Policlub a terrorist organization geared up for genocide against all metaraces besides humans? Isn't a little hard to say "This is why you should be a human. Look at all the discrimination!" Humanis members wouldn't bother to start with a penalty to charisma based rolls. I would believe they would shoot an elf or troll first and ask questions never.
Absolutely not! They are a legitimate, tax-paying organization that supports the rights of regular humans everywhere.
They only fund terrorist organizations and shadowruns that are dedicated to the genocide of all other races. You know...kinda like PETA.
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Hey, Humanis is not that evil!
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Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Humanis Policlub a terrorist organization geared up for genocide against all metaraces besides humans? Isn't a little hard to say "This is why you should be a human. Look at all the discrimination!" Humanis members wouldn't bother to start with a penalty to charisma based rolls. I would believe they would shoot an elf or troll first and ask questions never.
I never said you had to be human. I said from a purely roleplaying point of view, your face should probably be human (with elves being the next possible choice and all the other metahumans a far distant third choice). Humans in the Shadowrun universe have the same cultural acceptance as a white person during the 1950's in southern America. Is it right? No, but that is how the universe fluff pictures it.