Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Stormdrake on <09-15-10/1144:53>
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Have been playing with the thought that Great Dragons may not be the end of a dragon’s life cycle. As dragons have been shown to operate independently of their bodies and that they undergo transformations from adult to great, at least in part on the astral plane. Could not a further transformation take them from an existence anchored on earth to one of primarily existing in the metaplanes? Such a dragon could still return to Earth when the mana level was sufficient and conceal its exalted state through Masking.
This would also elevate the issues of Earth being able to support such massive predators that live for eons and are continuing to propagate. As beings of the metaplanes these ancient dragons would subsist off of mana rather than meat and would allow adult and great dragons to use the limited prey resources available. This would also fit into the existing game world as these ancients could easily conceal their true nature so that existing cannon great dragons could in fact be upgraded to ancient status without a recon of cannon history.
Just a thought
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One could technically argue that Dunkelzahn did something of the sort. It's questionable if it made him more powerful, though.
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I don't see any reason why this should be a good idea. *shrug* Astral dragon ancients? What for? Great dragon are already described ridiculously overpowered.
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Well, with Horros and Passions involved it isn't a terrible idea. I've wondered if they had different stages as well. I'm sure some of them believe it. In fact, I seem to remember reading that Lung was of that opinion.
Either way, it isn't something players would deal with on a regular basis.
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Simple question: what would this add to the game?
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Dragon paid runs to acquire objects of great value to potentially obtain this higher state. And sabotaging the same for others.
The usual, basically. Any time a motive is known or clarified, it always makes life easier on a GM.
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Isn't "Dragon want to aquire objects of great value" a motive in itself? :-)
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To some degree. We have, however, seen that the Great Dragons are forced to consider many more factors due to their opposition being roughly equal in power and potential. An object of great value would be a step in a larger scheme: not only because dragons plot myriad schemes, but because they often have to.
At least, that is my take. While a dragon may indulge, they often have to participate in draconian politics. Even those who would prefer to leave such things behind them are dragged back in.
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It's said that great dragons throw away more plots before breakfast than most people consider all day. They live for millenia and have equally powerful rivals surrounding them, waiting to stymie their efforts. Not to mention all the regular old mundane folk who happen to be really good at what they do throwing monkey wrenches into their plans.
This forces them to become grand masters at Zanatos Speed Chess.
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Also, you really don't need dragons to be more evolved. Great Dragons are scary enough as it is.
Those things have EDGE, man! Brrrrr.
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I'm sure the Great Dragons disagree when they meet Horrors.
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Err, actually, that is exactly what Ryumo or whatever the Japanese dragon is called has tried to do. He tried to syphon off mana energy from the Ring of Fire, to accumlate enough to transform into a post-Great Dragon state. he failed, and that is why Japan was so especially hard hit in 2062, but in any case if it necessites accumulation of so much mana, then it cannot be natural. Hence we can assume there is no natural state beyond Great Dragon state.
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There probably is....
There is probably the strongest of the Great Dragons.
Lung himself was ancient during the time of Earthdawn...(Luung, Cathay novels by Red Brick).
And yep, while Dragons are arrogant, they give horrors a wide berth.
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I think that depends on whether or not it needs a catalyst and if Ryumyo was just being incredibly impatient. I seem to remember Luung was trying this as well, but in a more controlled manner. Typical for these two, really.
What I find funny is that in success lies defeat: such an accumulation would likely create a mana spike. Horrors have an easier time entering. Mind, the Big D has a means of countering mana spikes these days, but it is still interesting. One could make the argument that Great Dragons can become Passions.
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No, Lung just wants to stabilise the Dragon Lines. As far as we know from Shadowrun I think he has no self-improvement aims in it. Doesnt mean hes entirely altruistic of course, but he doesnt want to take new career options cocooning himself and becoming a butterfly :D
And IMO it doesnt matter if Ryumyo is incompetent or not. If it necessitates additional mana it cant be a natural thing. And if Lung is in fact so ancient he shouldve reached this state beyond Great Dragon state by now, if it were natural that is.
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Lung vs. Ryumyo.
Differing styles.
Lung(China): teacjher , long term view.
Ryumyo(Japan): the student. Short term view.
Lung is probably the longest lived Eastern Dragon. As said earlier, Lung was already an ancient great dragon during Earthdawn.
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I have to disagree with the idea that if the Greats need to gather more mana than it is not a natural occurance. The example of Lung's former student indicates that it maybe possible but that he is trying to speed it up rather than wait for the mana level to increase naturally to a level where if he is ready they could transform. I think Lung is ready for such a transformation but needs to wait till the mana level increases to a certain point. His former student tried to jump start his own transformation which may have failed because he was not ready. This is all just home grown stuff of course which I raised as an interesting "what if?"
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what about becoming free of their fysical needs and body, transforming them into mataplannar beeings. They should not care about horrors any more, and with the bridge to metaplanes close one day, they can stay freely in one of them or travel between metaplanes without the "Station Earth"
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I would think the dragons have a lot to be afraid of when it comes time for the scourge, even an astral one like GhostWalker. If I don't miss my guess, we're talking some insanely high background counts, and that does affect dragons. Horrors on the other hand, thrive in it. You don't want to go messing with a horror on it's home turf unless you have your will up to date.
And for all things considered, a minor horror called a shedim can break the 'law' of magic that prevents resurrection, though it does it in it's own corrupt way. If that's what a minor horror can do...
What can a major one do?
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What can a major one do?
"Yes."
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Point of interest:
Shedim are not Horrors. They are more along the lines of psychic entities that simply animate the body and walk it around. In a higher magic field they can attempt to take over still "occupied" bodies, but it is much more difficult.
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The Shediem have been refered to as minor horrors on the forums by developers in the past. Such comments of course are not cannon but they are a good guide.l
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They aren't referred to as Horrors in the one book they are mentioned in (in Earthdawn). In fact, their behavior, while horrific, is not consistant with Horrors, which feed on the fear/pain of metahumans. Their primary goal seems to be to spread into the world and the only way they can hang around is to inhabit a metahuman body.
They are nasty, but they don't scream "Horror" to me.
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They aren't referred to as Horrors in the one book they are mentioned in (in Earthdawn). In fact, their behavior, while horrific, is not consistant with Horrors, which feed on the fear/pain of metahumans. Their primary goal seems to be to spread into the world and the only way they can hang around is to inhabit a metahuman body.
They are nasty, but they don't scream "Horror" to me.
Even a Shadow spirits (f.e. Wraith) feeds from fear and pain and violence, and they are not Horrors. The difference must be drawn somewhere else...
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The only criteria that I've seen that were consistent is that the home metaplane is either unreachable or unknown; that it is a spirit of some kind; and in those times where it's assensed, that there is a sense of 'wrong' about it, or corruption. Their behavior is /usually/ horrific or 'evil' in nature, sometimes for the purposes of feeding on the negative emotions.
Shedim, at this time the plane that the horrors came from is unknown, and they're spirits so they meet that criteria. I don't remember what they were described as in the astral, but for any critter that can (and does) manipulate the dead for it's enjoyment can't be good. I do however know they were described as addicted to the hate and fear they cause, so that meets the definition in my book.
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Shadow wraiths are, in Earthdawn, Horror constructs. They, therefore, are there to assist the Horror that created them in bringing about pain and suffering. That they get a bit of juice off of it only helps them fulfill their purpose.
The Shedim/Vyrkanogen aren't precisely spirits (in a similar way that Horrors aren't precisely spirits), but they don't feed on the pain or suffering or even the flesh or minds of others. They are more akin to bodysnatchers than Horrors, although the difference is likely lost on the victims. They don't do it for fun or food, they do it to survive on this plane (for whatever reason).
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The only criteria that I've seen that were consistent is that the home metaplane is either unreachable or unknown; that it is a spirit of some kind; and in those times where it's assensed, that there is a sense of 'wrong' about it, or corruption. Their behavior is /usually/ horrific or 'evil' in nature, sometimes for the purposes of feeding on the negative emotions.
Shedim, at this time the plane that the horrors came from is unknown, and they're spirits so they meet that criteria. I don't remember what they were described as in the astral, but for any critter that can (and does) manipulate the dead for it's enjoyment can't be good. I do however know they were described as addicted to the hate and fear they cause, so that meets the definition in my book.
Note that in Street magic all this (evil) entities are called Vanguards
That means only one thing: The main force - Enemy - has yet to come.
Horrors metaplane is unreachable due to current low mana level. Low in comparsion to Earthdawn, when almost everything was influenced and so closely linked to Magic that it almost beat the basic Laws of Gravity and Thermodynamics. Only way to get horrors to our metaplane is to build a bridge on the place with great mana spike: Crater lake, Locust, Aztlan blood pattern and some others. Bridge has to be intentionaly built now (as it almost was by Mr.Darke and his compadres), althought it is possible, from what I know, that someday it will open itself spontaneously.
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The Shedim/Vyrkanogen aren't precisely spirits (in a similar way that Horrors aren't precisely spirits), but they don't feed on the pain or suffering or even the flesh or minds of others.
Not true. Ibn Eisa declared Jihad after he become posessed by Shedim and resurrected. Street Magic and Year of the Comet sourcebooks say, that Shedims revel of violent deaths and major clashes... And at least it is capable of Drain power.
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Then that is a change from what they were in Earthdawn times. Back then, they just wanted bodies to inhabit.
Of course, given that they can only occupy dead/vacant bodies right now, probably from the low mana level, then it makes sense that one of them would want to create a few new ones.
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Then that is a change from what they were in Earthdawn times. Back then, they just wanted bodies to inhabit.
Of course, given that they can only occupy dead/vacant bodies right now, probably from the low mana level, then it makes sense that one of them would want to create a few new ones.
Sad but true. It should be just the need for new vessels...
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It is possible, that Dunkalzahn is merely seeking his corrupted brother in a final attempt of redeeming him, or he is about to become a new Passion for the modern age...
Or he's dead and its all a mad grab for power...
of course the Dragons taught the early elves that they could progress throught the circle of life and then "ascend" into the metaplanes and live eternally... sort of what the Great Ghost dragon did, and what Dnkalzahn did to survive his "death" for a little...
2 cents.
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You're thinking of Vasdenjas, not Dunkelzahn.
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And Vas is probably dead, as the Crystal (the one that Lofwyr got) was in Big D's hoard. And Vas was the Loremaster in times of FASA - thought he died along with the Vestrivan in process of containing the Horror Storm* in one of the later ED rulebooks...
Though in my SR he's still alive somwhere. I like that guy way too much to kill him.
* Don't use it. Even GD's had to rely partially on luck to fight it. And that was when magic stayed on a high level. And two of them (Vasdenjas and Vestrivan) died in the process... Better use some Verjigorm cult. :P
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That happened in Living Room Games little cycle of ED 2nd edition. That got pulled and the timeline was pulled back to just after the behemoth Triumph landed on the Ayodhya liferock. Tensions simmering, a few skirmishes here and there, but open war hasn't happened, yet.
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Pop quiz: Guess who was behind those skirmishes and tensions.
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The Denaistras of Iopos.
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And by 'The Denairastas' we mean 'The Dragon Denairastas, a Great one, who is also known as Outcast' (for creating Drakes and such without permission, AFAIR).
So, when you're sick of Dragons in SR, remember they were a plotting bunch waaaay before. :P
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Doing more than creating drakes (which isn't forbidden at all in dragon culture) but by making dragonkin. Metahumans with dragon traits (one of the few half-races in ED and SR).
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I thought that that was where Immortal Elves came from. Elves with dragon blood and a huge chip on their shoulder that they were 2nd class citizens. No wonder he got stripped of his name.
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Yeah, but IE's are mostly from early stock. And they're the reason why it was forbidden - 'and such' was just a mention. I knew someone will get the hint. ;P
He still has it - Denairastas - but now it's his 'family name', not his True Name. IDK if they could strip him of it, or if 'Outcast' is just a social stigma.
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Dragons collect names the way other people collect navel lint.
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True, however the indication is that the "Outcast" is being shunned by dragon society for his acts. The use of the name "Outcast" is probably the accepted mode of reference as shunning useallly prohibits other members of the society from refering to him by any name or deed.
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It's a little bit of the tracks but...
What is going on with Eliohann the Matrix Dragon?
I know his conscious is missing since the C'64 (Crash 2.0) or he is locked up in the Matrix. But what is he become? An e-Ghost, so a copy of the dead dragon mind or is he still alive, but his mind can't find the exit anymore?
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Don't know. Hadn't really heard about him since I ran the "Dragon Hunt" mission.
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I thought that that was where Immortal Elves came from. Elves with dragon blood and a huge chip on their shoulder that they were 2nd class citizens. No wonder he got stripped of his name.
The immortal Elves wasn't Denairastas, I think it was actually Celedyr who gave them 'the long view'. Whatever the name, it's the dragon with the big scar on his chest, marking exactly where the eves told him to stick his kingship.
Damn, I hate having all my books boxed up while moving house! Earthdawn sourcebooks used to be right on that shelf. Now they;re buried three boxes deep, two down in the spare room! >:(
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What is going on with Eliohann the Matrix Dragon?
I know his conscious is missing since the C'64 (Crash 2.0) or he is locked up in the Matrix. But what is he become? An e-Ghost, so a copy of the dead dragon mind or is he still alive, but his mind can't find the exit anymore?
He shows up in Emergence and hires the runners to rescue his AI friend from an MCT subsidiary outside Boston.
He hires them from a virtual club, but is seen in a bland, corporate icon, albeit in amazingly high resolution, rather than his usual three headed dog or the scales he saw when re re-rezzed after the Crash.
Buggy adventure though, because while he meets the runners on the Matrix, in the next paragraph it says he gives them two portable drives. Not sure how I'm going to run that when my players get to that adventure.
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He's a dragon. He planned on them taking the job and had the portable drives shipped to them ahead of time.
Those guys know how to plan ahead.
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If an anonymous Johnson "knows" where my players are, they will burn down their location, kill everyone in sight, fake their own deaths and go live in Antarctica inside a mana barrier, all the while blaming me for setting them up.
They aren't wrong either. An omnipresent figure who not only knows where you are and what you will do isn't a Johnson, it's a God. This makes the players feel insignificant, something I try to avoid, and it leads them to believe Shadowrun is an Orwellian world, something I try harder to avoid.
That way leads players to wear hazmat suits to meets and spay the place down with bleach afterwords.
The way I'll probably go is a safe deposit box and a loose definition of the time frame and the word "give."
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If an anonymous Johnson "knows" where my players are, they will burn down their location, kill everyone in sight, fake their own deaths and go live in Antarctica inside a mana barrier, all the while blaming me for setting them up.
They aren't wrong either. An omnipresent figure who not only knows where you are and what you will do isn't a Johnson, it's a God. This makes the players feel insignificant, something I try to avoid, and it leads them to believe Shadowrun is an Orwellian world, something I try harder to avoid.
That way leads players to wear hazmat suits to meets and spay the place down with bleach afterwords.
The way I'll probably go is a safe deposit box and a loose definition of the time frame and the word "give."
Really? Sounds like a bunch of pansies.
This is what Safe Houses, fake ID's and alternative lifestyles are for. So what if an 'anonymous' johnson finds out where you live? Go find out where they live, who they are, who they're family is, and politely advise it's rude to snoop.
The go with backup accommdation and ID's until you determine what's more worthwhile: Change lifestyle or remove employer....
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If your
If an anonymous Johnson "knows" where my players are, they will burn down their location, kill everyone in sight, fake their own deaths and go live in Antarctica inside a mana barrier, all the while blaming me for setting them up.
They aren't wrong either. An omnipresent figure who not only knows where you are and what you will do isn't a Johnson, it's a God. This makes the players feel insignificant, something I try to avoid, and it leads them to believe Shadowrun is an Orwellian world, something I try harder to avoid.
That way leads players to wear hazmat suits to meets and spay the place down with bleach afterwords.
The way I'll probably go is a safe deposit box and a loose definition of the time frame and the word "give."
If your runners are part of the matrix then someone knows where they are even if they don't know the significance, every message sent every search run they add up you don't need to be a god to find them a Technomancer/Otoku/Virtualkinetic after the first submersion could find them...
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If an anonymous Johnson "knows" where my players are, they will burn down their location, kill everyone in sight, fake their own deaths and go live in Antarctica inside a mana barrier, all the while blaming me for setting them up.
There's a good article in one of the Seattle sourcebooks about hiding in plain sight. Basically, it advises that even though cameras are omnipresent, DNA can be traced and calls can be tracked, there's no one single entity doing all this.
Just because you left DNA at a Renraku scene, doesn't mean they can Google the sample and link it back to the DocWagon contract. The brilliant thing about extra-territoriality is that none of the Corps share this information :)
Also, billions/trillions of activities are tracked every day, and information is only useful if it's current. So, while the corps is tracking down who hit them at the lab and narrows the DNA sample to a Caucasian Male, a quick disguise to look Asian while you hop a bus for a few hours, and they're not going to narrow the search to find you until you're long, long gone.
Sounds like your group has a self-confidence issue. I mean, how can you get a good rep anywhere if no-one can find you?
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Really? Sounds like a bunch of pansies.
This is what Safe Houses, fake ID's and alternative lifestyles are for. So what if an 'anonymous' johnson finds out where you live? Go find out where they live, who they are, who they're family is, and politely advise it's rude to snoop.
The go with backup accommdation and ID's until you determine what's more worthwhile: Change lifestyle or remove employer....
If this mysterious Johnson just happens to know where they are, then it's safe to assume he knows their safe houses, fake ID's and alt lifestyles, too. After all, they will be using all three at the time.
The Johnson is a dragon who lives in the Matrix. His closest relative is a Great dragon who owns NeoNET. Best of luck removing him.
What this really does is open the game up with my players feeling they now have to burn their current SINs and Lifestyles because someone whom they met two minutes ago tracked down this group of wanted criminals and bypassed their security.
They payed for those lifestyles and SINs with hard earned cash, so to open up the game and just take away something is kind of jerk move for the GM. It depletes player moral for no other reason than I couldn't think of a better way to give them the drivers, and it means they probably won't take the job, so the mission I've outlined can now be thrown away.
If your runners are part of the matrix then someone knows where they are even if they don't know the significance, every message sent every search run they add up you don't need to be a god to find them a Technomancer/Otoku/Virtualkinetic after the first submersion could find them...
He would be a God in a storytelling sense. Like Tim Robbins at the end of Arlington Road. If a character knows not only where you are and, more importantly, what you will do, then from a mechanical standpoint he can see everything(omnipresence) and know everything(omniscience). That makes him God. Or he might as well be, as far as the players are concerned.
More importantly, it sends the players the message "It doesn't matter what you do." All the care you've taken to stay hidden, despite false Access ID/proxy server/high orbit satellite/Spoof programs; it is irrelevant and always will be.
I don't want my players to feel that way. I want them to feel in control of their own destiny, at least a little bit. I want them to know that the rules matter, even to the GM. That I am responsible to the world in which they live. They need to know the GM doesn't hate them, but he does represent people who do. In doing that, I need to find a reasonable way to accomplish the NPC's goals from his standpoint, not from mine.
Because, as the GM, I am God. I need to save my miracles and my smiting for special occasions.
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If this mysterious Johnson just happens to know where they are, then it's safe to assume he knows their safe houses, fake ID's and alt lifestyles, too. After all, they will be using all three at the time.
You know what they say about assumptions, right?
What this really does is open the game up with my players feeling they now have to burn their current SINs and Lifestyles because someone whom they met two minutes ago tracked down this group of wanted criminals and bypassed their security.
Actually, what it's supposed to do is prove outright to the PC's that this is a Johnson not to be messed with. It's the equivalent of being interviewed for a secret job and the prospective employer mentions: 'Oh, we have your drivers' license and social security number already, no need to fill that in.'
More importantly, it sends the players the message "It doesn't matter what you do." All the care you've taken to stay hidden, despite false Access ID/proxy server/high orbit satellite/Spoof programs; it is irrelevant and always will be.
Correction: It says 'It doesn't matter what you do, or how far you run. This guy will find you if he has to'
Hell, have fun with it! It's like FastJack always knowing what time it is when Picador logs into JackPoint. It's a game they play.
I don't want my players to feel that way. I want them to feel in control of their own destiny, at least a little bit. I want them to know that the rules matter, even to the GM. That I am responsible to the world in which they live. They need to know the GM doesn't hate them, but he does represent people who do. In doing that, I need to find a reasonable way to accomplish the NPC's goals from his standpoint, not from mine.
Because, as the GM, I am God. I need to save my miracles and my smiting for special occasions.
Errr, dude. Your responsibility here has limits.
- If you decide that Ares nuke the run target from orbit before the team accomplishes their goals, then it happens.
- If the bad guys have a prototype raygun that ignores armour, then it happens.
You can still be reasonable, no problems. But Shadowrun is an unreasonable world, and the PC's are Career Criminals. Life is not meant to be fair for these players, and they should very rarely feel safe....
- Even today, If you cut someone off in traffic, they may decide to get out of their car and attack you with a bat. It happens...
- In Shadowrun, that same guy may be a drek-hot decker, mage or corporate bigwig, with a vindictive streak (maybe even some points for the Negative Quality? ::) ) There is ALWAYS someone better than you in shadowrun, and if you piss of the wrong people, they WILL find you. ALWAYS.
When a company has thousands, millions, even billions of dollars in reasources to find you, all your fake ID's and stealthy lifestyle mean sweet bugger-all.
Times like these you need bigger friends whose whole career is in hiding/transporting/falsifying. Or you need to make a deal for them to 'lose your file'.
There are sooooo many other, creative ways to stay under the radar. I just think your PC's are taking it all a bit too one-dimensionally. It's not 'Hide or Die', it's 'Run in the Shadows'.
The PC's are supposed to live in the twilight between plain sight and invisibility. If they think they'll never be found, then thei're naive and deserve a rude shock from a Matrix dragon....
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If this mysterious Johnson just happens to know where they are, then it's safe to assume he knows their safe houses, fake ID's and alt lifestyles, too. After all, they will be using all three at the time.
The Johnson is a dragon who lives in the Matrix. His closest relative is a Great dragon who owns NeoNET. Best of luck removing him.
What this really does is open the game up with my players feeling they now have to burn their current SINs and Lifestyles because someone whom they met two minutes ago tracked down this group of wanted criminals and bypassed their security.
They payed for those lifestyles and SINs with hard earned cash, so to open up the game and just take away something is kind of jerk move for the GM. It depletes player moral for no other reason than I couldn't think of a better way to give them the drivers, and it means they probably won't take the job, so the mission I've outlined can now be thrown away.
He would be a God in a storytelling sense. Like Tim Robbins at the end of Arlington Road. If a character knows not only where you are and, more importantly, what you will do, then from a mechanical standpoint he can see everything(omnipresence) and know everything(omniscience). That makes him God. Or he might as well be, as far as the players are concerned.
More importantly, it sends the players the message "It doesn't matter what you do." All the care you've taken to stay hidden, despite false Access ID/proxy server/high orbit satellite/Spoof programs; it is irrelevant and always will be.
I don't want my players to feel that way. I want them to feel in control of their own destiny, at least a little bit. I want them to know that the rules matter, even to the GM. That I am responsible to the world in which they live. They need to know the GM doesn't hate them, but he does represent people who do. In doing that, I need to find a reasonable way to accomplish the NPC's goals from his standpoint, not from mine.
Because, as the GM, I am God. I need to save my miracles and my smiting for special occasions.
I see your shadowrun games are the brighter future games. Shadowrun novels and fluff have never let me think that any of the characters ever lived in this kind of idyllic safty. My players would stop playing if they ever felt that way, they want to feel like they lived a shadow run novel. None of their information is ever safe. PCs are suppose to have hard choices "do I leave behind yet another fake sin or keep it and take the risks" or "do I leave behind yet another peace of my soul for another ware upgrade" or "do I risk my brain in hot VR just to get a that little extra in the matrix"
The cyberpunk genre is about risk, paranoia and a dark story. if you don't have the right mix then you are not quite getting the flavor of shadowrun.
weather or not your pcs can be found isn't relay about how much trouble they went through to hide themselves it is about weather the powers that be wish to know something enough to throw the resources at it... could the local street gang or a lowly wageslave track them no. Could a dragon, mega corp or prime runner track them sure. They just need to be willing to put enough resources and time at it and unless the PCs contacts loyalty ratings are 4+ information will be sold about them from time to time and if you want to feel like you aren't being unfair about it their are plenty of game mechanics to simulate how much info can be tracked down
that my .02¥ anyway
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@Morg
Okay do we talk cyberpunk or do we talk shadowrun?
I use SR in many different ways, from the common street punk, dark alley to the pink pop neon lights of Media City L.A., so the 6th world is more than one tune, you can play anything you like, in it, and the background material or rules of the SR-books do allow many settings and tell us even more stories.
That a main theme is about the life of shadowrunners doesn't mean you have to play only on that railroad...
I myself play it with different people in different ways, and it depends on what the players want, do they like more realistic and endgame depression or do they like more action cinema kung fu fighting streetsamurai, there are as many ways to play and "live" shadowrun as playing groups. And that's the beauty of it, nobody dictates you a certain style.
And even the SR-novels are not one style some of them are playing in the lower gang street region some of them in the high class between the rich and the powerful...
But back to the topic...
I'm thinking that everyone with that kind of background and resources can get rid of any traces, and he doesn't work alone... In other words it lies in the hands of the GM, if he wants to give the player a shot, than he can try, but there is no everyone can be find. Yes magic or resonance powers can do much wonders, but we are speaking of people with power and resources of the PC wet dreams. Again in other words, if one little technomancer tries to follow the traces, ten technomancer workers of NeoNets elite deleting all traces or meanwhile they tracing him back and sending a team to extract him...
The thing with SR is you can make it easy or air tied for the players... It's all right as long as you and your players have fun.
Just my 2¥
UV
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@ UV
you have to admit that the shadowrun material has an overriding dark undertone and while L.A. is not Manhattan it's underside is just as black and seeing that your playing a criminal you are part of that underside that is of course as you say subject to the style of game your playing but as I recall shadowrun defined as part of the cyberpunk genre is it not?
that not saying you can't change things as you like it that is what roleplaying is about. I am just feel that it would be more "True to the setting"
my .02¥
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@UV and @Morg,
IMHO you're both right, as it's about balance between SR fiction, PC desire and GM intervention.
The other thing to point out is it can be irrelevant how easy/hard it is to find the PC's. What's important is how much notification they get that someone's snooping over their dossiers ;)
Even in the Emergence module, particularly Matrix-savvy/secure runners may have heard before the meet that someone's been snooping over several of their layered Fake ID's.
When they then come face-toface (relatively) with the Johnson, they may even have a snide little bit of leverage in the meet:
'Ahh, so you're the one who's been checking out my work history. I'm assuming you liked what you saw, else we wouldn't be having this business discussion'...
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Actually, what it's supposed to do is prove outright to the PC's that this is a Johnson not to be messed with. It's the equivalent of being interviewed for a secret job and the prospective employer mentions: 'Oh, we have your drivers' license and social security number already, no need to fill that in.'
Jup and now give me the reason why that motherfucker needs runners. If I dont believe it, players dont believe it either. And it would ruin the game. Talking about the fun. Game.
I ve read this conversation through and through and I ve come to the conclusion:
Fortinbras : Charybdis
1 : 0
As if you want some realy bullshit: There is a quote in WAR that says, that Hualpa mybe would condemn Sirrugs actions against AZT.
WHAT???
This completely lacks any understanding of Cycle of magic and relationship between Dragons and short living entities like worms, flies and humans...Would the Dragon admit that another one should be judged by "men"? What again??? One of those dragons that once fought Therans (read Azzies)? One who knows, that after maybe 30 generations of theese little meat puppets Horrors would come and wipe out everything once again? Would lose his PRIDE for eternity because of one city shaterred to dust by some angry cousin - or- whatever - kind of relationship they have...
And more to it, I ve read Dragons of the 6th world some time ago and I remember that any dragons, nut just the great ones, are highly territorial beasts whiich are almost unable to stay in the company of its own kind for a few hours, not speaking about yars. Even their mating ritual is highly non-romantic affair.
Is it possible, that this:
"...Manaus, the national capital of Amazonia, which also happens to be where Hualpa, Arleesh, and Sirrurg have lairs"
Should be at least close to true? I simply could not imagine that.
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It's not a contest. But good to know that if it were, I'd be winning. Just kidding. Really.
I actually agree with most of what Chary says, but some of my players don't. I have to coax them, like a mama bird, into the world of Shadowrun.
Last time I threw them out of the nest, they moved to Nice and said they were going to try to find work there.
I don't want to run in Nice.
Nor can I just say "This is how the world works!" I've done that, and they don't listen.
I need to show them. Show them that I won't arbitrarily kill them because I'm in a bad mood or run a month worth of games involving nothing more than me sending MCT teams after them no matter what they do.
I've got a pretty diverse group. Some have played RPG's for years, some have played for months. Some are 16, some are 60+. Some have read Psychotrope, some still ask how many dice they roll to shoot things after 12 games. I have a responsibility to all of them. I enjoy playing with all of them.
I need to demonstrate that fake SINs are a thing they need to buy because they work. If they buy a bunch of SIN and alt lifestyles and I take them away for no reason, the next time it comes to buy them they won't, saying "Whoever will just find us anyway."
If I then do a, b and c to show they need a fake SIN, they'll just dismiss it outright. After all, four months ago, they didn't know what a SIN was. Then I told them they had to buy one. Then I told them it didn't matter. Now I'm telling them they need another one. Heck, even I'd say I'm moving to Nice just to piss the GM off myself.
Trust me, my players make plenty of mistakes on their own that allow me to demonstrate that the world is a scary place. To throw something at them arbitrarily, just to prove I'm the boss of them makes me a crappy boss.
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It's not a contest. But good to know that if it were, I'd be winning. Just kidding. Really.
Nah, credit where it's due ;) I can handle losing a few battles...
Trust me, my players make plenty of mistakes on their own that allow me to demonstrate that the world is a scary place. To throw something at them arbitrarily, just to prove I'm the boss of them makes me a crappy boss.
I completely concur on this point, but every now and then, even arbitrarily, things go wrong for shadowrunners.
Sometimes, someone just decides 'Tag, you're it', and the Matrix dragon is a prime example.
A few sessions ago, I had to remotely self-destruct a ¥26k commlink because it got left at the scene. That was two run's pay gone due to just damned bad luck, but it was the price of the industry.
Every now and then, it's constructive for runners to realise that they are the little fish. While they may be the cinematic heroes of the movie, they are the Running Men in a much larger game.
What I cannot understand is how any runner, anywhere, can maintain any decent rep without anyone ever knowing how to find them.
1) You can't live completely off-grid, or you'll never get any work
2) You can't ignore all your chummers, or you'll never have anyone to work with
3) You can't change commlinks every day, because your fixer needs to know how to find you
4) You can probably change physical safehouses a lot, but you have to either keep them in multiple fakeID names, or trust in Squatting at non-descript, unlisted locations (or a combination of the two).
Even the most paranoid runner, if they're active still in the biz (ie not Retired) leaves a data trail (physical, matrix or both).
Rarely, but possibly, someone large may spend their resources at hand to follow that trail, if they feel it's worth the effort.
In the case of this Matrix dragon run, all it's doing is providing two physical hard-drives either at the meet (which I think was Virtual only) or at one of the group's FakeID locations (I don't believe it says it has to be the runner's prime/active location, just has to be delivered to a valid address).
All I'm saying is that this hardly necessitates the group shutting shop, killing the courier and passerby, then moving to an Antarctica ward to watch the penguins ;)
Note: Those penguins could be spies too! :o That shift walk they do looks pretty suspicious to me 8)
Actually, what it's supposed to do is prove outright to the PC's that this is a Johnson not to be messed with. It's the equivalent of being interviewed for a secret job and the prospective employer mentions: 'Oh, we have your drivers' license and social security number already, no need to fill that in.'
Jup and now give me the reason why that motherfucker needs runners. If I dont believe it, players dont believe it either. And it would ruin the game. Talking about the fun. Game.
*shrugs* There's a bunch of reasons why runners are needed day-to-day, all of which still apply here. How about:
1) I have no physical form to do the job myself
2) I've got an opportunity to hack an Aesir satellite ATM, which is going to take me a few days. BRB kthxbye
3) I can't take the chance someone will see me
4) I'm testing you for something bigger
5) You're expendable in case things get dicey
6) You're deniable in case evidence is left at the scene
or further secret reasons options 7) through 100)
What, you don't think the CEO of DocWagon keeps a file on which of his clients who come in regularly with bulletwounds?
'Hmmm,' he says. 'I need some deniable assets for a job. I wonder if they'll be interested in doing some work for me in return for a Platinum contract upgrade?'
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I agree. Now if only I can get my players on the same page...
Some of them have never played Shadowrun before, so they're gun shy about the "There are cameras everywhere" and "You are criminals" dynamic, so I have to demonstrate that every time they pull a run, The Man isn't going to try and hunt them down.
Last time I said "If you start in a new city, your pay grade is going to go down by X amount because no one has ever heard of you."
It's working for now, but I don't want to kill that out of the gate by implying that their Johnsons are keeping tabs on their every move.
Two sessions ago, one of my players blew up 100k worth of vehicles because he thought someone was following the group. No one was. I don't have to worry about my players losing goods and services, they do that on their own.
Now if and when they tilt in the other direction and start to get cocky, that's when all those MCT guys they've been pissing off may rear their ugly heads. Until then, I've got to show them Shadowrun isn't 1984.
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I agree. Now if only I can get my players on the same page...
Some of them have never played Shadowrun before, so they're gun shy about the "There are cameras everywhere" and "You are criminals" dynamic, so I have to demonstrate that every time they pull a run, The Man isn't going to try and hunt them down.
What, they can't afford a balaclava?
Two sessions ago, one of my players blew up 100k worth of vehicles because he thought someone was following the group. No one was. I don't have to worry about my players losing goods and services, they do that on their own.
*laughs* And they think blowing up vehicles is the best way to AVOID attention? !That's exactly the type of activity that draws newsfeed drones like flies to honey!
Until then, I've got to show them Shadowrun isn't 1984.
An excellent reference to prove where the PCs' headspace is at. I think I get it now.
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What, they can't afford a balaclava?
I don't think they like Greek food. ZING!
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What, they can't afford a balaclava?
I don't think they like Greek food. ZING!
*laughs* ;D
I'll pay that! +1 for you 8)
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Dragons in my game I use the light touch on and only very rarely do they deal in the outer areas of draconic influence. the Frist Adventure, OTOH was a redux version of "Bottled Deamon" and Sonny, the merc had been creeping around since the time for the first appearance of the blasted thing, knew from stories what the thing was, and called in Arleesh to deal with it.
Suffice it to say, She was NOT pleased that her magic didn't kill it the first time, and gave him the drek-eye (she was more embarressed than anything) which has lead to all sorts of sub adventures resulting from that. Arleesh has not been involved in it, but general group paranoia involving dragons has made them go out of they way to avoid attracting attention.
I just ran them through Midnight and things took a very weird turn and went of module (which I'm okay with). Ghostwalker found out about the item they were carrying through 3rd parties and sent some of his ZDF trackers just to keep tabs on them to see where the item would end up, but not interfere. when the team ID'd the trackers, Paranoia went thought the roof for obvious reasons.
I'm considering having Walker invite them to his lair for a friendly interview to get some basic information. He's confident enough that while they won't squeal, he'll be able to put the tangental information together. I'm simply doing this to make the players sweat ;D
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Get hold of New Seattle, the old 3rd Ed sourcebook. It's got some great stuff about Lone Star's response times and capabilities that don't need much updating for 4th Ed (I just swap around the frequency of astral and drone patrols/cameras) that might help with the "my players are scared of anyone with a pair of eyes" issue.
Edit to add: I also more-than-tripled all the response times in that book, as they're a little on the short side, which didn't really make any sense to me.
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Remind them that response times are roughly analagous to RL response times. Five minutes is pretty typical unless you are unlucky enough to have a Lone Star cruiser pass by at that moment. Then remind them that combat rounds are three seconds long, and what all they can do in them.
That pretty much opened up a group of mine to the numerous possibilities of freelance resource aquisition (i.e. crime for pay).
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I agree. Now if only I can get my players on the same page...
Some of them have never played Shadowrun before, so they're gun shy about the "There are cameras everywhere" and "You are criminals" dynamic, so I have to demonstrate that every time they pull a run, The Man isn't going to try and hunt them down.
Last time I said "If you start in a new city, your pay grade is going to go down by X amount because no one has ever heard of you."
It's working for now, but I don't want to kill that out of the gate by implying that their Johnsons are keeping tabs on their every move.
Two sessions ago, one of my players blew up 100k worth of vehicles because he thought someone was following the group. No one was. I don't have to worry about my players losing goods and services, they do that on their own.
Now if and when they tilt in the other direction and start to get cocky, that's when all those MCT guys they've been pissing off may rear their ugly heads. Until then, I've got to show them Shadowrun isn't 1984.
What I did, was teach my runners that people (except law enforcement, and to some degree, even them) will only come after them if there is a really good reason.
There is no money in revenge.
Its that simple, Corp A isn't going to blow 3 million nuyen finding them and making their life miserable unless they can earn 3.5 million doing it. A mid-level manager might be upset their run ruined his promotion - but he alone won't have the resources. Its fine to be paranoid in shadowrun, but if they are as paranoid as you describe, then it sounds like a) you have really done a number on them in the past (or someone else has) or they need to calm a little, and think about it as biz, do your job, keep the media out of it, and your usually home free and shouldn't expect strike-teams showing up at their door, because there is simply no money in it, in fact, I have had corps who the runners just did a run again HIRE THEM to go against another corp, since, well, they just proved they are good.