Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: The Doomed One on <09-15-10/1624:13>
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I just saw an interesting article (http://singularityhub.com/2010/09/15/in-the-debate-over-rfid-tracking-children-are-the-testing-ground/) over on Singularity Hub about using RFIDtags to track people, and I though it was relevant.
It figures that now that I am making this post I can't think of anything to say; I suppose something will come to me eventually.
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Holy Crap! I opened the article and the first thing I noticed was the picture of Stephen Hawkins for another article. MAN, does he look bad nowadays...
Anyway, this has been around a while. Some pet-owners have been using RFID tags implanted in their pets for identification purposes. And then, of course, there's this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10158517); where a scientist had implanted an RFID device in his wrist for the security doors and such at work (instead of carrying the damn card) and they then programmed a virus on the RFID tag that would piggy back on other RFIDs, then infect computer networks they came in contact with.
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I think the problem most people don't see is the potential to abuse the system. Sure, they can see terrorists bombing buildings with hijacked planes (over and over and over on the weekend of Sept. 11th), but they can't physically see future abuse. It's not here right now? So why should we fear it?
For those of you who think this short sighted, you are quite right. Rules and laws are not made for those who play nice with others. Restrictions are put in place to prevent the few dirty bastards from taking advantage of the nice people.
This has "Brave New World" writ large all over it.
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It always comes down to the question: what is more important, security or privacy? All new technology has the potential for abuse. But normally the potential for such abuses are mittigated by a reasonably responsible society/govt/user. The obvious problem is that we dont HAVE a reasonably responsible society, govt, etc etc.
Sux don't it.
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I essentially use a RFID tag to buzz in the door at work everyday.
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The new german citizen ID will have an RFID in it. Go figure.
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I essentially use a RFID tag to buzz in the door at work everyday.
That's pretty common nowadays. I even know of some apartment complexes that give you a RFID fob to get in the front door (still using a key on your apartment door, though).
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I essentially use a RFID tag to buzz in the door at work everyday.
In a card or fob is one thing. Technically you dont HAVE to have it with you. A required implant however...
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Galahad has a microchip between his shoulder blades that the shelter implanted with all data proving that he is mine and if he is lost needs to be returned to me (and I think maybe his medical record, too?). Even if his old owners (whoever either turned him loose or lost him a over year and a half ago) come looking, that little chip says that he is MINE. It's kinda sad to me that one little microchip can override years of ownership. (not that they bothered to look for him, obviously, since he was in the shelter for months)
They're starting to discover that those chip implants in longer-lived animals (horses and livestock in particular) are starting to cause growths (some malignant) in the implant site. They don't know if it's specifically that brand of chip that does it, or if it's just that sort of thing being in their body for 20-30 years.
Now. People live a lot longer than horses do... :/ This isn't even touching into the hacking and virus parts. This is just the biological aspect. How are they going to keep EVERYONE'S body from rejecting the implants, especially if they're not biological material? Surface piercings will ALWAYS eventually reject and start to migrate, dermal implants don't always come out looking so pretty... There's also just the issue of them breaking. I read an article on stumble once about someone who implanted a small magnet in his finger to see if it would give him any sort of extra sense (which it did, to a degree interestingly enough), and then the magnet SHATTERED in his fingertip. Potential for broken bits to end up in places in your body they just should not end up. Like your heart tissue for instance! He got lucky in that since it was a magnet, it kept itself in the same general location, but that's still a lot of pain.
What hackers can do now is already scary. Store Support, wherever the hell they are, can hack EVERY SINGLE MACHINE at my work from anywhere. All our scales, our printers, our computers, our accounts, probably the cameras; everything but the registers, which are owned by a private company. They can also accidentally wipe all record of you ever working there... >_>;; I'd be a lot more worried about it if I didn't need them to hack everything remotely all the time because I can't even figure out how to get the label printers to spit out a test strip. XD However, what the hell's stopping them from when they get asked to fix a store security camera, spotting an employee or customer they think is attractive and watching them all day? *shudder*
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It always comes down to the question: what is more important, security or privacy? All new technology has the potential for abuse. But normally the potential for such abuses are mittigated by a reasonably responsible society/govt/user. The obvious problem is that we dont HAVE a reasonably responsible society, govt, etc etc.
Sux don't it.
It's not that we don't have a responsible government. That's not the issue here. The problem is that governments change over time due to people coming in and out of the governmental body. Even if you have the most responsible, most sensible and above all most trustworthy people in office today, that has absolutely no bearing on who will be in there tomorrow. The rules of government should not and cannot be based upon trustworthiness, because eventually someone untrustworthy will be in a position to abuse whatever powers they have been given and strive to take more power (or rather, convince others that they need more).
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And even if our government is trustworthy, there sure's hell are people out there smarter than them that are not.
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Before my Bro died we had a discussion about the security of our nation after 911. He was going on and on about the government needing to do something about making the country safe. I asked him, "Willing to give up your freedom Your Pravacy?" He said no. "Then you don't want security." Security is Invasive. Ity needs to know your buisness So that Joe Schmucatelli can be sure you are not going to blow him up on a plane with a crotch bomb! Freedom and security are kinda mutually exclusive.
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It's not that we don't have a responsible government. That's not the issue here. The problem is that governments change over time due to people coming in and out of the governmental body. Even if you have the most responsible, most sensible and above all most trustworthy people in office today, that has absolutely no bearing on who will be in there tomorrow. The rules of government should not and cannot be based upon trustworthiness, because eventually someone untrustworthy will be in a position to abuse whatever powers they have been given and strive to take more power (or rather, convince others that they need more).
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True, it is this very fact that makes most governments "unresponsible". But also note that I included society as a whole and the specific individual. All play their part and are interconnected.
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I recall a conversation a friend related to me once. One of his buddies was going on about implanting an RFID chip in his hand and how secure and awesome it was. My friend then pulled out his knife, opened it up, and said, "Which hand?"
What goes in, can always come out!
Another thing to consider: how hardened are these ID chips? If someone works around certain equipment, the chips can be destroyed, depending on their construction. Consider the docs and techs around MRI machines, or those who work in electric sub-stations.
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New definition of Buzzkill there Tek! :o
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I recall a conversation a friend related to me once. One of his buddies was going on about implanting an RFID chip in his hand and how secure and awesome it was. My friend then pulled out his knife, opened it up, and said, "Which hand?"
What goes in, can always come out!
Another thing to consider: how hardened are these ID chips? If someone works around certain equipment, the chips can be destroyed, depending on their construction. Consider the docs and techs around MRI machines, or those who work in electric sub-stations.
Oh god MRIs. Those things have ripped piercings right out of people. You have anything even remotely magnetic anywhere NEAR you and it's flying out and/or off.
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Hmm... wonder what it would do to the titanium rod running through my right femur. ;D
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If Titanium has any magnetic properties at all, probably tear it out.
http://www.simplyphysics.com/flying_objects.html <-- MRI horror stories.
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New definition of Buzzkill there Tek! :o
*bow* Like my friend, I have a straightforward and often ruthless imagination. Also, I've been studying electronics the last couple years, and have found I have a frighteningly good memory when it comes to the subject. Much like the folks out there with networking skills, I sometimes have to just sit on my inner semi-expert and just roll with the fun of the game. Though, I can make use of my knowledge when it comes to describing what a character using Hardware or the like does.
Another fun aspect of RFID is being able to use a 'sniffer', by walking along and pinging RFID chips in range and collecting the results. Decrypt the data, and you'd have whatever you need. Not a precisely trivial device to build from scratch, but given a frequency range, adjustable transceiver, and suchlike, someone more experienced than I could likely be able to start pulling data in a relatively short period of time.
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Titanium=Non Magnetic AFAIK
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not magnetic... Something I'd double check before getting an MRI, though. ;)
Now, the plate in my ankle; I don't know what that is. :o
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For deserts?
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For deserts?
I don't know whether I should applaud or smite that comment. :P
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For deserts?
I don't know whether I should applaud or smite that comment. :P
Either one. It's worthy of both! ;D
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It's mostly anything with nickel or iron that you really need to be concerned about.
The only problem is, you can find iron in just about anything metallic.
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It's disturbing how creepy and eerily haunting our technology could effect us. All people that have biological implants (ie, a kidney/lung transplant) has to take medication to prevent the body from rejecting the implanted part (or so I've heard). I could just see pharmaceuticals selling drugs to prevent your body from rejecting the RFID implant. "Shudders."
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It's disturbing how creepy and eerily haunting our technology could effect us. All people that have biological implants (ie, a kidney/lung transplant) has to take medication to prevent the body from rejecting the implanted part (or so I've heard). I could just see pharmaceuticals selling drugs to prevent your body from rejecting the RFID implant. "Shudders."
"Ask a gentern if Zydrate is right for you... Ask a gentern about day and night time formulas of Zydrate... Remember, buying Zydrate from an unlicensed source is illegal..."
And I believe the medication for donated organs is only temporary. There's more of a window of rejection (than you have to take it for the rest of your life) as your body adapts to the new bits.
The problem with RFID tags in animals is that it's cancer, which I doubt they even have a REAL vaccine/cure for in the time SR takes place. I sure's hell don't see it happening in the next 60-some-odd years. We can't even get flu vaccines straight. Again, that's not even touching on the migration issue. Depending on how small these things are and what they're made of, it's not too far fetched to imagine some accidentally ending up in the blood stream (especially if they break) and then embedded in some organ they don't belong.
And I found an article about RFID tags causing cancer in animals: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/08/AR2007090800997_pf.html
And one focusing more on the livestock versions, which are a bit more advanced than the house pet version. Livestock RFID tags can give the animal's body temperature, brief medical history (I think) as well as owner information: http://www.louisville-pets.com/microchip_cancer_study.html
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The big problem with flu vaccines is that the flu constantly mutates. Basically, it works like this: You catch the flu. You're immune system sends out white blood cells to fight the flu. The cells fight it, reverse engineer it's genetic code and embeds that code into your immune system, remembering it so it no longer affects you. But the flu has encoded a surprise in the virus. Once you're "over it", it uses you body's own immune system to dispose of the "dead" flu (sneezing, coughing, etc.). Those "dead" cells actually aren't really dead, just a weakened form of the flu, one that has also learned from the fight with the immune system, upgraded to get past the defenses it ran into before. So, those disposed cells now go out and infect a new host. And the vicious cycle continues. ;)
-- This post brought to you by The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again!/HA-HA-HA>
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Last time I got a Flu shot. I got the Flu. Bad! Normally I get ache & pains and I just bull my way through the 2-3 days. When I got the shot... I walked as far as my daughters bedroom (about 25') and crashed there for 3 days. I'd swore off flu shots since without any incidents in around 12 years.
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That's what I was referring to when I said they can't even get flu shots straight. XD They play guess-and-check for which strain is going to be the big one this year, give it to thousands of people, and hope for the best. And don't even get me started on the SNAFU that was the whole swine flu incident. A couple people die in a few months from swine flu and everyone's wearing face masks. A couple million people die each day from HIV/AIDS and no one wants to use a condom.
I've got a couple friends just sitting back and waiting for the zombies to come with as fast as they pumped out that swine flu vaccine. My money's on it coming out of the cervical cancer one. Pharmaceutical companies are disgusting.
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Did you see Zombieland? It's going to mutate from Mad Cow disease (which is probably a result of all the hormones we're pumping into the animals to get our McDonald's burgers quicker).
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Last time I got a Flu shot. I got the Flu. Bad! Normally I get ache & pains and I just bull my way through the 2-3 days. When I got the shot... I walked as far as my daughters bedroom (about 25') and crashed there for 3 days. I'd swore off flu shots since without any incidents in around 12 years.
Well, the kicker about innoculations is that your body goes through the whole process of fighting an infection, which it doesn't have, but doesn't know that. So your symptoms are supposed to show up as your body figures out how to deal with the virus.
But, ya, I agree with you. I stopped getting flu shots after I left the military. Hated getting them every year, since I got sick from them (over the weekends, natch). I can count on one hand, with 3 fingers cut off, the number of times I've had the flu after leaving the military 10+ years ago.
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Did you see Zombieland? It's going to mutate from Mad Cow disease (which is probably a result of all the hormones we're pumping into the animals to get our McDonald's burgers quicker).
And to keep them from decomposing longer.
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Did you see Zombieland? It's going to mutate from Mad Cow disease (which is probably a result of all the hormones we're pumping into the animals to get our McDonald's burgers quicker).
And to keep them from decomposing longer.
*shudder* Now it becomes clear...
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That's what I was referring to when I said they can't even get flu shots straight. XD They play guess-and-check for which strain is going to be the big one this year, give it to thousands of people, and hope for the best. And don't even get me started on the SNAFU that was the whole swine flu incident. A couple people die in a few months from swine flu and everyone's wearing face masks. A couple million people die each day from HIV/AIDS and no one wants to use a condom.
I've got a couple friends just sitting back and waiting for the zombies to come with as fast as they pumped out that swine flu vaccine. My money's on it coming out of the cervical cancer one. Pharmaceutical companies are disgusting.
Yes. They are.
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To keep them from decomposing longer is right. That's why the average american has enough preservatives to keep a body from decomposing quickly. It's all the stupid drek they put in our food.
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Show of hands...anyone like eating rotten meat or vegetables? Anyone?
<crickets>
No? You can thank the chemists for coming up with the stuff that keeps your food from MAKING YOU SICK and staying fresh long enough to make it to your house. You're welcome.
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Um... I'd still rather buy organic and local whenever I can afford it and it's available. Most of the time, I can taste the difference too...
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Organic is a complete scam. Along the same lines as the preservatives argument, do you know how many people in the world could be fed by organic growing means? Go ahead and pick 2.7 BILLION people you don't like to starve to death. That's right, organic can only feed about 4 billion people. Mainly because they don't have the means of controlling pests and lose a lot of their harvest to them. Or they can't grow them as fast, so their harvest can only occur in specific, narrow growing months.
Organic = super scam. If you are really burning for that "au naturale" food, then grow your own garden and save your money.
Sorry, organic foods and recycling (anything but metal) are big pet peeves of mine.
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Thank the maker there is another person out there that sees things like I do!
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#1) Yes, I've watched those episodes of Penn & Teller's Bullshit and I wholeheartedly agree that we cannot feed the world on organic growing styles. And that most recycling is BS.
#2) HOWEVER, I also think there's a HUGE difference between wanting food that isn't so full of chemicals and preservatives that it's not as healthy to eat. Unfortunately, the only way you can try to get that is buying overpriced organic-labeled foods.
#3) Watch Food Inc. (http://www.foodincmovie.com/). Also, watch the previously mentioned episode of Bullshit (http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/episodes.do?episodeid=118367&ep=111). Understand both sides of the argument, then decide for yourself how to live your life.
Do I buy nothing but organic? Hell no. I still buy frozen veggies and potato chips and only go into the organic section of the supermarket when I can afford to and usually only for meat. What I did learn from Food Inc./Bullshit and other subjects is that almost everything you eat (from ketchup to hot dogs to soda to cereal to white bread and peanut butter) has corn products in it. And the number one thing they use to fatten up cattle & such quickly is feeding them corn instead of grass. Corn = "Fatter Quicker". And most foods have corn in them. And there's an obesity problem in the U.S. Gee, I wonder if there's a connection. I know that when I began making informed choices when buying groceries and checking the ingredients of my food for corn by-products, and worked to avoid them, I lost weight.
Sorry 'bout that, but my pet peeve is people making assumptions or decisions based only on one part of an argument. That and jumping on decisions I make that they don't agree with thinking that I'm an uninformed idiot that doesn't investigate all avenues before coming to a decision. If more people looked into both sides of a debate instead of picking one side and ignoring the opposite side's argument because they "didn't like it", we'd be better off in this world.
A great debate teacher taught me that the best way to truly understand a subject is to argue AGAINST your assumed position. By forcing yourself to argue the opposing side, it forces you to see the flaws in your position, so that you are making an educated choice instead of simply believing in a "company line".
[/rant]
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I'm just against buying "Organic" food that cost an arm and a leg over the grown from the ground, fed normal food type. If I wanted really healthy food again I'd pick it from my dad's garden. I'm just against slapping a label of this is better for you & then charging more cause you used less stuff to grow/raise it.
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I'm just against buying "Organic" food that cost an arm and a leg over the grown from the ground, fed normal food type. If I wanted really healthy food again I'd pick it from my dad's garden. I'm just against slapping a label of this is better for you & then charging more cause you used less stuff to grow/raise it.
Yeah, that's a peeve I share. It just sucks that there's little middle ground: it's either grown the corporate way or grown in the backyard type of deal. :P
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So when do you think Coprate America/Europe will make it manditory for us to have RFIDs?
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I wasn't picking on you, specifically. I was cautioning that the Organic craze is a huge scam. I have also found that many people who buy Organic mistakenly think that it is somehow "better" for the environment and/or better for them. It isn't, really, and I am continually frustrated by folks who want to "save the world" by throwing money at their grocer. Sorry if you got too much heat off of that.
I saw those episodes of "Bullshit" as well. While they didn't cover everything (how could they, in a single episode?) they did provide a starting point for asking questions.
My grandparents used to keep a good sized garden on their one acre lot in the suburbs (before it really became the suburbs, cursed sprawl). Fresh vegetables beat store bought every time. But they didn't use "organic" methods, because they couldn't afford to throw away crops due to pests. If you asked gramma what she thinks of this organic stuff, you will actually get an eye roll from an 80+ year old woman. That, in itself, is telling (and also hilarious).
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No problem, GN. And I wasn't even thinking of the "no pesticide, no nothin'" type of organics. I usually roll my eyes at that too. If anything, my organics run more of "Buy Local" than anything else... ;)
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#1) Yes, I've watched those episodes of Penn & Teller's Bullshit and I wholeheartedly agree that we cannot feed the world on organic growing styles. And that most recycling is BS.
#2) HOWEVER, I also think there's a HUGE difference between wanting food that isn't so full of chemicals and preservatives that it's not as healthy to eat. Unfortunately, the only way you can try to get that is buying overpriced organic-labeled foods.
#3) Watch Food Inc. (http://www.foodincmovie.com/). Also, watch the previously mentioned episode of Bullshit (http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/episodes.do?episodeid=118367&ep=111). Understand both sides of the argument, then decide for yourself how to live your life.
(rant snipped by Teknodragon)
I work on a dairy farm; grew up on it. We've grown organic crops by way of experiment a couple times. It is... very inefficient. At the same time, the family garden was organic, though not by intent-- we had manpower more than money at the time (as in, Tekno-- go weed the garden).
Nothing wrong at all with having 'organically grown food' as an option-- just as having vegetarian, vegan, gluten-free or lactose-free foods are good options to have as well. The problem comes when those who push organic foods make false accusations and insinuations (like antibiotic-free cheese and milk). Someone who considers and does a modest amount of research in the choice of their food, like FastJack here, I applaud. Their opinion is informed, which allows them to make informed arguments as well.
I should note, that part of the reason organic food is pricey, is there is less yield per acre. Out of that yield, there is more damage by insects and fungi. Of the remaining crop, less yet looks as good as the non-'organic' food it competes with. Quality can be improved, to a point, by more mechanical effort-- that is, manpower. Those people need to be paid, as do equipment operating costs.
There are some... interesting loopholes, here and there, regarding official designation of what is organic and what is not.
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Wild berries taste so much better than commercial because they're smaller. Wild strawberries are only a little bigger than grocery store raspberries. Wild meat will always trump cow. If my family hunted you bet your ass I'd be having venison WAY MORE than once every couple years. Which is depressing, because it's my favorite meat. Ever. There's plenty of deer even down here in the city. If I could shoot the ocean from a boat I'D hunt. Gladly. Papa Joe's garden is the best place to get peppers, tomatoes, and whatever other veggies he decided to grow that year. And this is just based on taste.
Am I happy with how commercial slaughter animals are treated and fed? Hell no. Doesn't stop me from eating it any though just because it's cheaper and easier. I'd really prefer if they didn't pump everything with growth hormones. Puberty is coming younger and younger with each generation, and let me tell you, hitting it in THIRD GRADE was NOT FUN. Menarche used to come in a woman's mid to late teens not THAT long ago. Now it's mid to late elementary school age. That's not good. At all. I don't know off the top of my head if menopause is coming any earlier or later though, and I don't know jack about men's statistics.
"Organic" food just can't be mass-produced, and as soon as it is, you kinda start missing the point. :/ It's not worth the few extra bucks to me, personally. I'd rather grow and kill my own food so I KNOW what's in it for certain than buying something in a brown package instead of a dyed package.
And on the topic of corn being in everything: THIS IS WHY MY ANIMALS ARE NOT FED COMMERCIAL PET FOOD! Dogs and cats have an even harder time digesting it than WE do. It's nothing. It's filler. It's actually worse than filler because it's more detrimental to them than anything. MOST cases of urinary crystals, kidney stones, diabetes, allergies, and obesity in animals can be cleared up by switching to a pet food that is devoid (or at least very low) in corn and grain (lots of household pets actually have grain allergies). Stay away from "[meat] meal" or "[meat] by-product" because that's pretty much the PC way to say "rotting meat" and "odd bits and ends that aren't really all that great for consumption like heads and feet." Cats do much better on wet-food diets, as they are carnivores, and like all predators, have digestive systems and instincts that are much better equipped to get hydration (and non-animal matter nutrients, like those from fruits and veggies) from their "kill" pre-digested once than out of a water bowl. Hell, if you have the time and some money to set it up, get'em on a raw food diet. In the long run, it's cheaper, especially since any left overs that don't make it into fido and mitten's bowls is perfectly fine for you to make some gumbo out of. Meat grinder, whole chicken/beef with bones/pork/rabbit/turkey/whatever, powdered dietary supplements, and you're pretty much good to go!