Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: nojosecool on <06-20-11/0313:48>
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This guy is brothers with Onion Man's "Baron Jolly" (under thread "Voodoo Touch Mage"), and we have worked the two characters to complement each other at Origins. Because of this, you will notice that I only have one initiative pass unless I actually use the Jazz I'm carrying. The jazz is for just in case we don't have time for Baron Jolly to cast his initiative boost spell on me and we need to start shooting immediately. A last resort so I don't get murdered because I only have the one initiative pass. Jazz will be used very sparingly.
Primarily, Ripon will use the MG-6 grenade launcher if stuck in meat combat, but mostly he will maintain the tacnet and look for targets for spoofs and easy hacks. If someone comes up on him, he will quick-draw the thunderbolt to drop them quickly.
Since the grenades just have to get close and his agility is so preposterously high with his shooting arm, I am not investing too much in the grenade launcher skill. After my first run I will specialize in GL's, maybe later adding one more point to the skill later on, but then I'm leaving it alone.
I know the skill groups spread me thin, but with the advancement track I am taking, I will be rolling a lot of dice for basically anything linked to logic. Since this guy is for Missions play, I would rather have him be pretty good at a lot of things than really good at a thing or two.
Please don't hold back when criticizing my build. Thanks!
Name: (doesn't have one yet)
Tag: Rippon Rhyma
Metatype: 20 pts
Ork (20 pts)
Attributes: 130 pts (150)
Bod 4 (0 pts)
Agi 2 (9 with R. Arm) (10 pts)
Rea 3 (20 pts)
Str 3 (0 pts)
Cha 2 (10 pts)
Int 4 (30 pts)
Log 4 (30 pts)
Will 3 (20 pts)
Ini 7
Low Light Vision
Edge 2 (10 pts)
Qualities: -5 pts (145)
Analytic Mind (5 pts)
Born Rich (10 pts)
Restricted Gear: Response 6 (5 pts)
Restricted Gear: Agent 6 (5 pts)
Restricted Gear: Tacnet 4 (5 pts)
Low pain tolerance (-10 pts)
Spirit Bane (Man) (-10 pts)
Compulsion: Hijacks audio feeds to play his original music. Dance clubs, PAN feeds, etc. (-5 pts)
Distinctive Style: Loud, talks with hands, flaunts his inner city lingo, gold teeth, big sunglasses, etc. (-10 pts)
Active Skills: 178 pts (323)
Mechanics group 1 (10 pts)
Electronics group 4 (7) (40 pts)
Cracking group 4 (7) (40 pts)
Biotech group 1 (10 pts)
Influence Skill Group 1 (10 pts)
Perception 2 (5 vis aud olf)(8 pts)
Dodge 4 (16 pts)
Pistols 6 (24 pts)
Heavy Weapons 1 (4 pts)
Armorer 1 (4 pts)
Artisan (DJ) (6 pts)
-DJ includes beatboxing and sound mixing (and performance). Beat boxing is pure fluff, sound mixing might have in-game uses.
Gymnastics (Dance) (6 pts)
Knowledge skills and languages: (24 free points) 0 pts (323)
English N 0 pts
Physics (Harmonics/wave theory) 3(5)
Ozrut (Trog) 2(4)
L33T 3
Seattle Club Scene 3
Seattle Fine Dining (Chinese) 2(4)
(Last 8 points for useful hacking knowledge, maybe 1 or 2 points into Denver area knowledge to cover backstory)
Contacts: 17 pts (340)
MacCallister: Fixer (C5, L4) (9 pts)
McCoy: Street Doc (C3, L1) (5 pts)
Markus: Club owner (C3, L1) (4 pts)
Gear: 300000 Y
Primary (implanted)
commlink: Transys Avalon 5000 Sig 4, Response 6 (upgraded, paid for restricted gear)
System 6 3000
Firewall 6 3000
Response upgrade +2 (6) 8000
All Common use rating 6 4800
All Hacking programs 68000
at rating 6 except:
Nuke, Corrupt, Disarm (1)
Data Bomb, Blackout (2)
Track, Medic, Defuse (3)
Nonstandard Wireless Link (6) 3000
Armor (10) 500
Optimization (Exploit) 500
Customized Interface 250
Hardening (6) 150
Skinweb Array 200
Agent 6 15000 (Paid for restricted gear)
Expert Defense AS (3) 1500
Homeground 3 1500
Tacsoft 4 12000 (Paid for restricted gear)
Sensor Bundle (For tacsoft) 950
Cybereyes 4 1500 Capacity 16 - 0.5 Essence
Flare comp 750 [1]
Low Light 1000 [2]
Smartlink 1000 [3]
Thermo 1000 [2]
Vision Enhancement 3 4500 [3]
Vision Magnification 1000 [2]
Microscopic Vision 1300 [3]
Protective covers 100
Cyberears 4 1500 Capacity 16 - 0.5 Essence
Audio Enhancement 3 4500 [3]
Damper 750 [1]
Select Sound Filter 4 2000 [2]
Spatial Recognizer 750 [2]
Increased Sensitivity 1000 [1]
Customized Cyberarm 21000 CAPACITY: 15 - 1 essence
Sim module (Hotsim) 5000 [2]
Olfactory Boosters (+3) 3000 [2]
Commlink implantation 2000 [2]
Snake Fingers 1000 [1]
Telescoping Cyberarm 2500 [2]
Agility Enhancement (3) 750 [3]
PuSHeD 15000 0.1 Essence
Encephalon 2 75000 1.5 Essence
Ruger Thunderbolt 750
Extended Clip 500
Personalized Grip 100
Small Fire Selection Change (FA) 300
Sound Suppressor 600
Internal Smartlink 400
Compensating Chamber 0
Quick-draw holster 100
Lanyard 10
Trigger removal 50
Bullets x60 120
Gel Rounds x30 90
Extra Clips x5 25
Morissey Elan 450
Silencer 400
Electronic Firing 1000
Smartgun System 450
Extended Clip 500
Trigger Removal 50
Lanyard 10
Concealed Holster 75
Hi-C Plastic Rounds x20 300
Extra Clip x1 5
MG-6 Grenade Launcher 1600
Additional Clip 1600
Personalized Grip 100
Shortened Barrel 50
Smartgun System 400
Airburst Link 500
Trigger Removal 50
Lanyard 10
Quick-draw holster 100
Flash Bang x5 150
High Explosive x6 270
Thermal Smoke x4 140
CS Grenades x5 200
Extra Clips x2 10
Survival Kit 100
Respirator (6) 150
Medkit (6) 600
Flashlight 25
Wire Clippers 25
Miniwelder 250
Autopicker (6) 1200
Tool kit (hardware) 500
Certified Credstick 25
Industrious Line Coveralls 900
Nonconductivity (4) 800
Fire Resistance (4) 200
Chemical Protection (4) 500
Form-fitting full armor 1600
Hard hat 50
Jazz x6 450
Long Haul x2 100
(Front commlink)
Novatech Airware 1250
Firewall 6 (3) 0
System 6 (3) 0
Fake SIN (3) 3000
Fake License Firearms (3) 300
Fake License Accessories and Mods (3) 300
I still have 900ish Y left, too. Thinking of shifting around some money so I can boost my SiN and licenses one level, or get another one at level one to burn. Once I get a few runs under my belt, I'm totally getting a Fetch module. I'm pretty sure I'll survive until then.
Thanks for looking this over!
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I had thought you were switching from the respirator to a gas mask when you dropped athsma.
It also should be said that his lifestyle is the same as and paid for on Jolly, they're roommates. Ripon brings all the electronics and entertainment toys, Jolly has the apartment and owns the car and keeps the bills paid and such.
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Also, what's in those sensor bundles you figured out? I'll need to know that before I commit anything to paper.
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Sensor bundles:
2 channels: Rating 1 microcamera (detachable, but mounted on monacle hardware) with Thermographic vision (200Y)
3 channels: Rating 2 Earbuds with Audio enhancement (1) and spatial recognizer (220 Y)
1 channel: Motion sensor (50 Y)
2 channels: Rating 3 monacle with image link, low light, vision magnification (275 Y)
Changed some stuff around so we could get a HUD on there for those who don't have it. Do we need anything else for these? This seems like enough for users to contribute and to gain all benefits from the tacnet without the stuff getting in the way.
Total: 8 channels for tacnet, full visual and audio interface, only 745 Y. What do you think? Should we move more to the camera since some characters won't want the monacle? They become a little more expensive if we do, but meh... If they don't want the monacle, they probably have cybereyes or badass goggles anyways, so they wouldn't need it. That's just how I'm seeing it.
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I would think that if they had a beef with a monocle it would be because they already have something else and they'll probably already have the channels available.
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Sweet! I made the perfect hacker!
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to add 3 more dice, get a rating 1 nanohive and place it as capacity in the cyberlimb. get neocortical rating 3 nanites for it (25,000 nuyen). Next, get the Focus reality amplifier from unwired (500 nuyen). when your under stress, the Focus will let you use the neocortical bonus anyway.
next, you need an unrestricted agent(from unwired). it costs more and has high availibility, but it can use hacking programs. with your commlink, you should also add ergonomic to six of your programs. doing this with common use programs is easier (analyze, browse, edit, command, encrypt, and purge)
aside from that, if you have a copy of spy games, theres a very useful common use program there called Carnivoregold.
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Just my two cents: implanted commlink is headware. Some GM may not allow headware to be installed in a cyberarm.
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Thanks Yorick, that's great advice. I think I'm going to run ergonomics on ECCM and Armor as two of them since my IC will be up basically all the time. (Maybe instead of purge and edit?) I didn't know about the nanohive, but that's going to be one of the first things on my purchase list once I start earning Nuyen!
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Ergonomics on Analyze is good.
If your GM rules that running two copies of the same program that has ergonomics (i.e. you and your agent running exploit with ergonomics) counts as two ergonomics options toward your (system) limit, these work well: encrypt, reality filter, attack, armor, biofeedback filter, and ECCM.
Nanohive neocortical neural amplifiers is very important for a hacker. I recommend a focus reality amplifier from Unwired also (500 nuyen).
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Very cool character! I really like versatile but effective characters. I hope you don't mind, but I did have a question, since I'm new to building cybered characters. What're the various elements which are contributing to his awesome right arm agility?
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Thanks fikealox! This hacker has just kicked some serious arse on his first couple runs at Origins. Many thanks for everyone's help in tweaking the details.
Anyways, the cyberarm... I bought the custom cyberarm and matched his STR and BOD to his natural stats for simplicity's sake, but I took his AGI up to the natural max (6). Then, I bought the AGI limb enhancement at 3, bringing the total to 9. It's kind of funny, at Origins he hasn't even drawn his pistol yet...
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I'm glad (and not surprised) that he's working out well. Generalist characters, in my experience, are by far the most fun to play. You get lots of opportunities to contribute to the 'runs, rather than waiting endlessly for a chance to utilise your hyper-specialty. Plus, I find it more interesting to make up for slight combat shortcomings (compared to dedicated street sams) with ingenuity and creativity. In short, this is totally a character I'd play!
Thanks for clearing that up about the agility, too. I was confused, 'coz I thought his base agility was 2, and the arm was raising it by 7.
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It's probably a bit late, but something to consider down the line is to pick up another cyberlimb (like a forearm or lower leg) and keep packing in implanted Response 6 commlinks. Cluster them all together with your existing one and drive your processor limit through the roof. The ultimate goal would be maintaining all the subscriptions for your TacNet, while running every program you own at the same time, and still having half a dozen subscriptions open for accessing other nodes.
Oh, and implanted commlinks have a capacity cost, which allows them to be placed in cyberlimbs.
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@DWC,
I'm actually considering getting the extra implanted commlinks just to run more agents. In Missions, we have to have to pay for every single copy of every program that we want to run. No running two copies of an agent simultaneously, no running two copies of exploit (one for me and one for the mook), etc. It's no big deal, but I do like the daisy-chain idea for the commlinks for that purpose alone.
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@DWC,
I'm actually considering getting the extra implanted commlinks just to run more agents. In Missions, we have to have to pay for every single copy of every program that we want to run. No running two copies of an agent simultaneously, no running two copies of exploit (one for me and one for the mook), etc. It's no big deal, but I do like the daisy-chain idea for the commlinks for that purpose alone.
The Missions rules for copying software really do put agent swarms well out past the point of diminishing returns, which is deliberate. Glad you like the "cyberlimb nexus", by the way. It's even more handy for drone diggers who rely on Remote Control mode, since they can load up on cheap R4 commlinks to build their super node, then use an optimized Command program, and instead spend cash on beefing up drone nodes.
That reminds me, I need to sort out my TM for Gencon, on the offhand chance that my. Current Missions character is a terrible fit for a table I get mustered to.
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I don't know, well, anything about Technomancers or sensor suites, but just on skills and guns....
You've said primary weapon is the MGL-6 (Heavy weapons @1), but then have Pistols @6. Just a fluff thing mainly, but your description of the PC doesn't match the skillsets...
On the weapons, there are too many slots being used for modifications (normal maximum is 6):
- Ruger thunderbolt: Small Firing Selection + Personalised Grip + Extended Clip + Internal Smartlink + Sound suppressor = 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 3 = 7.
Fix: Make the Smartlink an External component. This may have been the original intent, as the cost you've listed is 400 (whereas an Internal Smartlink would be weapon cost = 750)
- Morrissey Elan: Internal Smartgun + Silencer + Electronic Firing + Extended clip = 1 + 2 + 2 + 1 = 6... all good
Note: This is all good, but How the heck did you get a Facility level modification on your gun (being the Electronic Firing)? They'd have to redesign the whole thing, so is this thing some weird and wacky prototype from somewhere?
- MGL-6: Additional Clip + Personalised Grip + Barrel reduction + Smartgun = 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5... all good
Note: As morrissey, How the heck did you get a Facility level modification on your gun (being the Additional Clip)? They'd have to redesign the whole thing, so is this thing some weird and wacky prototype from somewhere?
A BUNCH of people would want to take this gun from you if they knew of its existence....
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If the internal smartlink is either bought as an accessory, or the weapon is purchased as the "Smart" variant, there's no need to spend a modification slot on it.
As for the modifications that require a Facility, maybe he slipped some cash to a guy in the gun cages at Fort Lewis that he used to serve with, and got the work done that way. Maybe he stole it from someone else who made it for himself. Either one is a viable explanation for why he has them.
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If the internal smartlink is either bought as an accessory, or the weapon is purchased as the "Smart" variant, there's no need to spend a modification slot on it.
As for the modifications that require a Facility, maybe he slipped some cash to a guy in the gun cages at Fort Lewis that he used to serve with, and got the work done that way. Maybe he stole it from someone else who made it for himself. Either one is a viable explanation for why he has them.
If the weapon is listed with Smartlink as a standard option, no mod slots required
If the weapon uses an external smartlink, no mod slots required
If the weapon is bought, and requires an after-market internal smartlink, then it costs a mod slot.
As for the facility, there is a fluff description somewhere in that a Facility modification requires redesigning the weapon from the ground up (like making an Assault cannon Full-Auto with a large firing mod...)
A facility is more than a Gun cage at the local weaponsmith. It's a 100,000 nuyen room with machining tools, spare parts, ballistics chamber testing etc etc etc)
I'm not saying it's impossible, but it needs to be explained, as custom improvements on that scale are not common....
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It might be good to explain it, but I wouldn't say it's really a problem with the character. Here's a few example explanations I cooked up off the top of my head:
Plenty of organizations (megacorps, governments, but also criminal organizations most likely) have access to those shops. The character did a job for one of them and was paid in gear customization.
His character didn't get the gun modified - someone else who does own a facility got a bunch of those guns modified, then sold them on the black market for a fat profit. His character just ended up with one, but doesn't know where it originated from.
He knows a guy (probably MacCallister) who knows a guy (possibly recursively) who has access to one of those shops, and paid the nuyen to get it done.
He killed a dude who had those guns, and hey, they don't seem to be linked to any crimes. That guy must have gotten them from somewhere.
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It might be good to explain it, but I wouldn't say it's really a problem with the character.
*shrugs* Neither would I. OP asked for any and all feedback, so that was mine ;)
Maybe our campaign focuses on resource details a little more than most, which puts a bias on my queries
Note: We have the same discussions about Vehicle modifications
Basically, for a PC to get this stuff IMHO they need either
- the skills and Facility themselves,
- a contact with them (not just a catch-all fixer), or
- a damn good background explanation
Any of the above is fine, and maybe the GM is more lenient than mine (also perfectly valid). Either way, it's a feedback discussion ;)
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Ah, OK. This is for Shadowrun Missions, and there are simplified rules for contacts getting you stuff, so as to avoid taking up table time with that sort of thing.
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Thanks guys,
I'll post my updated character soon. I've got about 77 karma, so please don't worry about counting points or anything.
I will be posting a back story. I know it isn't necessary for missions to explain where I got those guns, but it actually does kind of fit with what I had in mind. When he was 13, he worked as a spider for Ares in Denver. Lots of explanation for that, but working at Ares would give him access to the tech required for modifying his weapons.
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When he was 13, he worked as a spider for Ares in Denver. Lots of explanation for that, but working at Ares would give him access to the tech required for modifying his weapons.
Errr, if you're a 13 years old hacker who is 'owned' by ARES (as you're a minor and have no rights), would you really be:
A) Working for ARES? or
B) Experimented on by ARES?
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If the internal smartlink is either bought as an accessory, or the weapon is purchased as the "Smart" variant, there's no need to spend a modification slot on it.
As for the modifications that require a Facility, maybe he slipped some cash to a guy in the gun cages at Fort Lewis that he used to serve with, and got the work done that way. Maybe he stole it from someone else who made it for himself. Either one is a viable explanation for why he has them.
If the weapon is listed with Smartlink as a standard option, no mod slots required
If the weapon uses an external smartlink, no mod slots required
If the weapon is bought, and requires an after-market internal smartlink, then it costs a mod slot.
As for the facility, there is a fluff description somewhere in that a Facility modification requires redesigning the weapon from the ground up (like making an Assault cannon Full-Auto with a large firing mod...)
A facility is more than a Gun cage at the local weaponsmith. It's a 100,000 nuyen room with machining tools, spare parts, ballistics chamber testing etc etc etc)
I'm not saying it's impossible, but it needs to be explained, as custom improvements on that scale are not common....
1) Internal smartgun systems are available as accessories, per the table in Sr4A, and the one in all three printings of Arsenal. Accessories, by definition, do not require modification slots. Arsenal is quite explicit about there being modifications that duplicate accessories.
2) Missions entirely circumvents the issue of required tools for modifications gained in game, and SR ignores them entirely when it comes to character generation, falling back on Availability and Rating instead.
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If the internal smartlink is either bought as an accessory, or the weapon is purchased as the "Smart" variant, there's no need to spend a modification slot on it.
As for the modifications that require a Facility, maybe he slipped some cash to a guy in the gun cages at Fort Lewis that he used to serve with, and got the work done that way. Maybe he stole it from someone else who made it for himself. Either one is a viable explanation for why he has them.
If the weapon is listed with Smartlink as a standard option, no mod slots required
If the weapon uses an external smartlink, no mod slots required
If the weapon is bought, and requires an after-market internal smartlink, then it costs a mod slot.
As for the facility, there is a fluff description somewhere in that a Facility modification requires redesigning the weapon from the ground up (like making an Assault cannon Full-Auto with a large firing mod...)
A facility is more than a Gun cage at the local weaponsmith. It's a 100,000 nuyen room with machining tools, spare parts, ballistics chamber testing etc etc etc)
I'm not saying it's impossible, but it needs to be explained, as custom improvements on that scale are not common....
1) Internal smartgun systems are available as accessories, per the table in Sr4A, and the one in all three printings of Arsenal. Accessories, by definition, do not require modification slots. Arsenal is quite explicit about there being modifications that duplicate accessories.
2) Missions entirely circumvents the issue of required tools for modifications gained in game, and SR ignores them entirely when it comes to character generation, falling back on Availability and Rating instead.
+1
Beyond all that, asking someone to justify their totally legal character creation choice is too slippery of a slope. Next we'll be demanding that people justify having a 5 in hacking or a high logic.
Too slippery.
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Not so much worked for as accepted an indentured servitude contract in lieu of a law suit that would cost his wage slave parents more than they had. The law suit was indisputably my guys fault.
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If the weapon is listed with Smartlink as a standard option, no mod slots required
If the weapon uses an external smartlink, no mod slots required
If the weapon is bought, and requires an after-market internal smartlink, then it costs a mod slot.
As for the facility, there is a fluff description somewhere in that a Facility modification requires redesigning the weapon from the ground up (like making an Assault cannon Full-Auto with a large firing mod...)
A facility is more than a Gun cage at the local weaponsmith. It's a 100,000 nuyen room with machining tools, spare parts, ballistics chamber testing etc etc etc)
I'm not saying it's impossible, but it needs to be explained, as custom improvements on that scale are not common....
1) Internal smartgun systems are available as accessories, per the table in Sr4A, and the one in all three printings of Arsenal. Accessories, by definition, do not require modification slots. Arsenal is quite explicit about there being modifications that duplicate accessories.
2) Missions entirely circumvents the issue of required tools for modifications gained in game, and SR ignores them entirely when it comes to character generation, falling back on Availability and Rating instead.
Point 1:
- Smartgun System, Internal = Modification = 1 mod slot, costs same as weapon
- Smartgun System, External = Accessory = no slots, 400 nuyen, top/under barrel
Why would someone then try to say:
PC - No, I'm getting an Internal Smartgun system as an Accessory that costs no slots
GM - But there's ALREADY a Smartgun accessory, which is External, and costs no slots.
PC - But I want an Internal one!
GM - Err, so pay for it.
PC - I don't wanna....
GM - Tough.
I find it difficult to believe that
A) For a weapon with Internal Smart gun as standard, there's no mod slot cost
B) A weapon with Internal Smart gun added later, there's no slot cost (Just buy the accessory!)
C) If you want to build a gun with Smartgun, you have a mod cost (?!)
Either B) or C) is conflicting. I choose B). Others are free to disagree *shrugs*
On Point 2:
I am corrected :D
Missions does away with such things quite simply. We play a more detailed game (with Facility mods especially requiring partcular attention).
Note: Maxxed out attributes or Skills at 6/7 also require some explanation. That's just how we roll ;)
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The rules for Ruger Thunderbolt are special.
Arsenal Page 24: "... comes equipped with either an internal smartgun system (+400Y) or a built-in underbarrel laser sight (+100Y).
The way I interpreted that is that it comes with it and takes up no slots, just like any other "off-the-shelf" modification.
In reply to the conversation, I agree that you cannot buy an internal smartgun system as an accessory. I was never able to find a RAW ruling on this, but it seems pretty common-sense to assume that the internal smartgun system is counted as an "accessory" only if you are not using arsenal, where there are special rules for modifications (which is what this "accessory" actually is). It's so that people can still use this very common weapon mod if they are only using SR4A.
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If, for game balance reasons, you want to ignore what is explicitly stated in the rules about modifications that duplicate the effects of accessories, that's up to you. None of that changes how the game mechanic actually works.
Read the section in Arsenal called "Modifications vs. Accessories", right under the "Weapon Mod Notes" heading, on page 148 of the 2nd and 3rd Printings.
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Believe it or not, this smartgun accessory thing seems to come up a lot. Here's a pretty good discussion of it that I witnessed some months ago.
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=3750.0 (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=3750.0)
Another thing to think about is that, functionally, the "integral" smartgun system does not, in any way, act like an accessory. (You can't add or remove it, etc.) I believe that when they talked about mods and accessories having duplicate effects, they were discussing things like the vent-gas accessory and the vent-gas mod. Or the silencer accessory and the silencer mod.
I mean, RAW says "The difference between the two of them is that accessories can be installed without requiring extensive mechanical knowledge, while modifications require an application of the modification rules mentioned at the beginning of this chapter." (128)
This actually makes it sound like internal smartgun systems would be miscategorized as accessories if we used this definition. External ones, however, bolt right on and require no such knowledge.
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Believe it or not, this smartgun accessory thing seems to come up a lot. Here's a pretty good discussion of it that I witnessed some months ago.
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=3750.0 (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=3750.0)
Another thing to think about is that, functionally, the "integral" smartgun system does not, in any way, act like an accessory. (You can't add or remove it, etc.) I believe that when they talked about mods and accessories having duplicate effects, they were discussing things like the vent-gas accessory and the vent-gas mod. Or the silencer accessory and the silencer mod.
I mean, RAW says "The difference between the two of them is that accessories can be installed without requiring extensive mechanical knowledge, while modifications require an application of the modification rules mentioned at the beginning of this chapter." (128)
This actually makes it sound like internal smartgun systems would be miscategorized as accessories if we used this definition. External ones, however, bolt right on and require no such knowledge.
The internal smartgun system accessory can be inserted and removed. It can because it is an accessory and all accessories can be inserted and removed. If you've chosen to ignore the written rules and instead make assumptions of errors on the part of the editors, then there's nothing else I can do. You've read the rules that say you're wrong. You've quoted the rule that says you're wrong.
Here's one more, from the "Smart or Not" paragraph on pg148, "Many 2070-era firearms, however, are equipped with a smartgun system, either off-the-rack, as an internal or external firearm accessory, or as a weapon modification."
I'll agree that the existence of the accessory and the modification is redundant, and I can't imagine why anyone would use the modification when there is no drawback to the accessory and the modification offers no additional benefit, but there it is.
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Dude, RAW is in no way clear here. Therefore, our interpretations are different. They way you are putting it is that your interpretation is correct, and all others are incorrect. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying I disagree with your reading of the rules. It really doesn't matter either, because you will probably never my GM, just like I will probably never be yours.
Also, Charybdis and I aren't exactly the unenlightened minority here. If you look at the link I provided, you'll see that we're not the only ones who believe that this wording is ambiguous, and that there are a lot of good reasons for disagreeing with your reading. Again, RAW is confusing here considering obviously different opinions of what "internal" means. To me, it would seem that an internal system is inseparable from the weapon unless you put in some serious work (i.e. a weapon modification). I cannot conceive of an internal AND easily removable system that doesn't require some kind of weapon modification. You clearly disagree, which is fine. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I disagree.
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I read the link. I read it twice, actually. It's full of people who are ignoring that the rules differentiate between the accessory called "Smartgun System, Internal" and the modification called "Smartgun System". There's even a sentence that states that both are possible, which you're ignoring.
I still won't dispute that the rule as written is dumb. The modification "Smartgun System" should offer some benefit that the accessory "Smartgun System, Internal" does not, like requiring the modification to use modifications that require a smartgun system, but it doesn't.
Look at other similar overlaps. The bipod accessory is 2 points of recoil comp. The internal bipod modification is retractable via wireless command and can also be used as a foregrip. The Silencer and Sound Suppressor modifications offer improved performance over their accessory variants. The foregrip accessory only works on Full Bursts. The foregrip modification works all the time. The underbarrel weight has the same difference between accessory and modification. The sling accessory is a convenience. The sling modification is a recoil compensation device that helps with Concealability. There are plenty of cases where the modification has advantages over the accessory that make them worth the extra effort.
Someone got lazy when they wrote the entry for the Smartgun System modification, not giving it any special benefit, and instead calling it the internal version of the accessory. It's a bad bit of writing, but since nothing in it negates the existence of the "Smartgun System, Internal" accessory, that's all it is.
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Wow. This ceased to be a productive conversation a couple posts back. Look, I like you DWC. Can we leave this where it lies?
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Sure. We do agree that the rules are screwy, and we both like Shadowrun, so the rest is really not worth stressing about.
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DWC, I don't necessarily want to attack your mastery of the English language, but p.153 is absolutely specific with no room for semantic ambiguity or liberal interpretation as to what an internal smartgun system (p311-312 SR4 or p 322 SR4A) is.
You are wrong, and there are no ifs, ands, buts, or any other prepositions about it.
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Since I was already fine with ending this circle of us pointing out contradictory rules by agreeing to disagree, how about I buy both of y'all a beer in Indy next week and we stop boring the rest of the board with this?
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New rules, like those that appear in Arsenal compared to those rooted in SR4, do not contradict the old rules, they revise, supersede, and replace old rules. Much like a new contract revises or replaces an old one, and new laws revise or supersede old ones.
I won't be at Indy (IMHO the only reason to go to that city is to watch a Packers away game), but I'd gladly take you up on that beer if I were going to be there.
Arsenal contains what we call unequivocal language. No room for interpretation with the statement "A is B".