Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Frankie the Fomori on <09-16-10/1511:23>
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I‘m designing a run that would take players out into the wild near Seattle I will call it an extraction but very loosely because they are retrieving a data storage unit from a victim of a harpy attack. The party will be running with a larger group of NPC's across the wilderness, encountering one Horned Bear, a very difficult climb up a Mount Si, then up the hay stack at the top. the Harpy colony is about 100 harpies strong, which means lots of close in fighting, each player will have about 7-12 harpies to deal with....I just finished rolling out the NPC's combat turns to make sure it is A: a doable combat B: how many harpies they would have left to handle. Now extraction is Base 20,000$ per runner with variables....and though the combat is hard, and the Johnson wants any other wild life handle in none violent means (fight the bear to first blood) they will encounter and catch Vitas 3 which they will then have to endure. So I am thinking it should be a larger payout, do you have any suggestions?
Edit: to understand the harshness of the run, 2 NPC's fall on the mountain (one dies), two fall to attacks by the harpies, two more fail to survive the VITAS after the fourth test in 48 hours. So out of the 7 NPC's with the group, 2 survive! All are 500 BP builds.
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From the sound of things, the runners have already done their job. If that's the case, pay them the negotiated price and be done with it.
If the runner's demand better payment (and they likely will), have them negotiate with the Johnson again. They'll likely hold the storage unit hostage until they get a number they are happy with.
Out of curiosity, where did you find the "base 20,000 + variables" number? I will be starting up a game soon and have no idea how to price my runs. Is this something you came up with or is it from a book?
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lol, no I have no team to actually do the run with...I am only the lonely now in Seattle. But i like to create stuff, so I am working up a number of runs, and this will be one of them.....Whenever i run a game I handle all NPC combat before the game...and note the results....I hate to slow down games that should be centered around the PC's. The payout table is in 3ed companion
Run
Assassination 5,000
Bodyguard/Security 200 /day
Burglary 2,000
Courier Run 1,000
Datasteal 20% value of the data
Distraction 1,000
Destruction 5,000
Enforcement 1,000
Encryption/Decryption 200 per MP
Extraction 20,000
Hacking 1,000 * Host's Security Value
Investigation 200/day
Smuggling Run 5,000
I think the 20,000 is to low though, that is what is bothering me. This may be one of the most deadly runs I have sent a team against. While playing it out I have a survival rate of about 20-40%. The PC's will not be forced into it. I always go into a night with 3-5 storylines running so if they turn down a run down then no worries. But I want the payout to = the risk and then make it a little more to make them forget about the risk lol. They are going after a hefty bit of information for an unknown Corp (well I know lol) and I may set up a whole story line centered on these events.
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The PC's haven't done anything yet -- if I'm understanding the post right -- it's just the NPC's he's made some rolls for (to gauge the danger of the climb, the danger of the fight with Harpies, etc).
I wouldn't consider this to be an Extraction, because those generally are, well, kidnappings/escort duty rolled into one. An Extraction, in Shadowrun parlance, is a job wherein you go onto -- as a for instance -- Renraku turf to steal a Renraku employee (one worth stealing), and then take them back to your Fuchi or Ares or whatever Mr. Johnson, who now has himself a new top-tier researcher.
This is...more of an object retrieval, albeit one that's apparently pretty dangerous. Depending on how far the trip is, how long it's likely to take, etc, I'd say 20,000 might still be a fair amount (a little high for some groups, but it depends on how far into the campaign things are) of pay, don't get me wrong...but it's more of a smuggling run/escort/destruction mish-mash than an Extraction, though.
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Unless the Johnson knows they are going to catch Vitas, don't factor that in. Sometimes bad things happen.
Remember, you know what will happen, but the players don't and even the Johnson doesn't always know.
On the flip side, I like your idea for pre-rolling NPC combat. Nice trick to save time.
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Yeah I like to narrate that action to the pc' s while there fighting, it also helps that a group can really go in no wrong direction while I gm. I have a folder with NPC's and adventures for every system I have run. I can adapt as the pc's play out there stories. I also like to use cell phones and if my players have laptops then I give them little data sticks that I have placed information on. Also I use things like msn for matrix work. I am a slow typer so I write out descriptions before hands then send them to the hacker there are still some thing handle via dialogue but it really seems to make the hacker's job seem totally cool to the other pc's. All of a sudden the hacker is like hey guys I got this type of data, what have you been doing? :)
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Though I can see the upsides to it I don't like the idea of this type of job pays X. There are too many variables to have a set price. If it is the team that is saying this is what we charge that could be different.
The one down side to prerolling and then narrating the NPC fight scenes is it can make the players feel like bit roles instead of the stars. I played in another RPG where the GM regularly did this and I almost always walked away thinking why was I even there?
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I only do this when I have NPC's that are on the teams side, it allows me to make sure that I have not ramped up the Adventure to much or that these NPC's are too much of a over kill, and it keeps the game going smooth and quick. I will never allow anything I do to over shadow my PC's, it is a thing i once did when I was teen and figured out with feedback that it is one of the worst kind of mistakes to make as a GM.
When you are dealing with 3 second combat rounds I want my PC's to feel that it is going quick, so while they are rolling away I give them little bits of information about what is going on around them (like snuffy the mage Bio just flat lined, or fellow ancient ganger just got tossed off the building). I leave very little time for them to adjust tactics after combat is started....My player will be told about this before hand, so you will see there is several reaction/action maneuvers set up before hand. Though I rely on combat to move the plot line I make sure my PC's understand once it happens they have better be prepared because combat is very lethal for me.
I like to think of it in terms of what we did while I was prepping my team to go down range. Muscle memory takes about 2-3000 repetitions for an action to be second nature, it meant long hours of building mock wooden buildings all over FT Campbell and running my team through them again and again. Same with first aid combat lanes, over and over till everything was reaction/action....very little thought involved.
I understand that this is a game and real life has very little impute, but so far when I have had players they have responded very well with how I run things. I give my team time to do dry runs, and reward this prep work almost more than the actual mission. Allot of the time we find that there is little violence once there team enters a corporation, they move quick and regardless if they are running lethal ammo or stick and shock rounds they find their targets have little time to respond to their aggression. Like I keep it hard for my PC’s I also keep it real with a corp.’s response time. If my PC’s go in and perform to this standard then it is very rare that any response will be quick enough to interrupt there plans.
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I totally agree that combat should be quick response. If it is happening in 3 seconds the players shouldn't be able to debate for ten minutes on who they are shooting first. lol
I've also used the idea of graduating response times for security levels. Just makes sense that a security team in a public office building will take longer to respond than a high security secret research facility. I give the team a little leeway if they make a very quick decisive and quiet plan. A bust in and run however will get a quick and deadly response.
I've never used prerolled NPC combat. Seems to me that even a simple ambush could be totally undone by unconventional character actions. In the run you described my first thought was actually to fly in and parachute/rappel to the harpies location. If the players were to leave the NPCs behind (cause the transport wouldn't hold that many etc.) wouldn't all that rolling before hand be in vain?
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There will be some controls on how the PC's can enter the area first being the provisions of the mission that the Johnson lays down. Things like do not engage wild like unless it is life and death situation, not explosions or flame spells, and sense they are approaching the Harpies which are known carries of VITAS-3 then they will have a time limit to get back off the mountain and into the city to make the drop off. They will also have to arrange their own quarantine and Anti viral meds.
I have hiked up Mount Si sense i was a little boy, it starts at about 600 feet and climbs to about 4100 feet over 4 miles taking a normal adult about 4 hours. In my best shape I ruck ran up it in just a little over an hour so even with the challenges i plan on throwing at them they should be able to get up in about 3 hours down in half that time. The bear they will need to engage on both directions, so that will be a pain for after such a large battle.
Now i will not play Mt. Si on what I know I'm going to change it up and allow the awakened world to use its magic and change some known Features. I have several maps of the terrain and depending on how much digging the PC's do will decide which map and information they are given. If they go without much data then yeah it changes things up, but if they do even a little digging they will find that a massive free spirit Air elemental has claimed that Air space as his own, he allows any awakened animal to enter but anything reeking of meta-humanity will be a target. Also there are approaches of the mountain that has changed instead of the four miles hike I am used to they will find Cliffs and Brambles, large areas that they will have to block out as they ascend the Mt.
For those that have not dealt with VITAS-3 it is a killer. If there protections get breached then it is pretty much a death sentence for low body NPC and PC’s alike. Though the players will have edge, so that may make the difference.
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If the Johnson knows he's throwing them against VITAS carriers (since he's sending them in to pick up an object from a harpy attack), why wouldn't he supply them with anti-viral medical care? If for no other reason than...I don't know...to prevent a friggin' VITAS outbreak (which could also endanger him, at the pick-up/payoff)?
Also, if you're concerned about pay...don't forget that many places offer a bounty on harpies (because of their VITAS carrying). Industrious PCs might be able to make some extra cash that way.
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Second is a great point lol, did not even think about that :)
First is already thought out, and if there is an outbreak then the Johnson would not mind at all. But I will not bore you with those details, as it leads into another plot line. Also though I will always provide expense fees on top of the normal run I almost never have my Johnson provide additional equipment. All my runs demand the PC's to prepare for them, to include any medical care, magic over sight, matrix support, riggers, and smugglers. They will know beforehand that there will be a second negotiation once the team knows the expenses they will meet and what the Johnson will authorize, this is not a sit down meet. just a quick contact, supply total amount...if it meets with a set amount that the Johnson has been given in order to see this through the all is gravy. If not then the Johnson tales them that X amount is covered, if they want to continue then the rest is out of pocket. I also allow this amount to include cost of damage equipment, spent ammo and Burnt programs.
It allows the runners an understanding of what is expected from them, a small retainer because they are scaring off a local gang because they have decided to lean on the wrong business owner means that if the PC's want to bring in APDS ammo, Drones, and high cost explosives then it is out of their pocket. But if they are running against Boeing plant in Auburn then they may get about 5-20,000 cash but have an expense account that works into the 10-100,000$ of equipment they may burn or need to accomplish the Job.
In the end my runners are expected to live up to their current reputation, have the skills needed to get by, and the foresight to plan out there runs. Thank you for the feedback everyone, i really appriciate it :)
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I think the payout table is a joke. There might be some kind of modifer I keep missing, but seriously? Look at some of those.
Johnson: I'll give you 5k to kill Damian Knight.
Runners: :o ??? :o :'(
Johnson: What? That's the going rate.
Even if those are the payouts for green runners it might be understandable. There should be some kind of modifer's based on the teams experience level (kinda like in Missions) and how tough or high profile the job is.
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These are just base line prices, instead if thinking killing knight is were 5 grand starts think of poor old Mrs smith who just found the love of her life and needs to off the last love of her life! With all jobs take in account the value of the target, combined with the amount of security, and the chance of expossure and figure out the final price.
Critias: great idea on the bounty, netting the survivors about 200K to split
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Why have it at all then? I realize that the prices are the low end. The way it's presented however it's misleading to inexperienced gms making them thing that's the price no matter what.
As a side note I wonder what would be the payout for whacking old Damian
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frankie, you put a lot of thought into your runs and im very impressed. My 2 cents are that 20,000 nuyen is a very large sum and i have to echo Welshman, that sometimes bad things happen. if your runners are used to this kind of payout, then i would stick to the norm.
as a side note, i just had a run where 5 outta the 6 npcs helping the pc's took dirt naps and im only paying 5k total for their troubles.
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I agree with the 20,000 K each. Especially after factoring into the amount the bounties in those harpies. Using the table in shadows of north America the Quebec section. Off hand I think they were 2,000¥ each so the survivors get an additional 200,000¥ if all the harpies are killed and the collect there hides.
Thanks for the compliment, I hope some day soon I have a party to play with/ GM, but for now I am creating runs and tons of NPC's to use when the gaming starts. Have a goodday chummers
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Personally i think runs should pay 2,500 nuyen/per runner/ point of karma earned, atleast if you want to retain somekind of balance between mundanes(need money to advance) and awakened/TM:s.(Need karma to advance))
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Max, problem there is that you assume they will accomplish all of the points of a mission then. If theymiss out on karma somewhere, then they're overpaid and the imbalance remains. Unless you preconcieve you adventures to pay a certain karma whether thy are dne right or not... but i Know in my case, I assign karme to certain points of the run and so if they are missed, the runners lose karma.
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A few thousand nuyen to get nearly killed is not what runners get paid on my runs.
recently they made 7000 each for an assassination job.
the mission they had before, which they screwed up, paid 70K for the entire group with a 10K expense fund.
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I think the "pay per player" concept works great for something like shadowrun missions (SRM) where you have people who don't really know each other, a timed environment, convention setting, etc.
For all other forms of Shadowrun I much prefer the "here's what I'm willing to pay to get this job done" approach. Offering a per diem or expense account isn't a bad way of doing things either though (which can be done per person of course,) but the overall "job pay" should be a number the party can divide however they see fit.
As for the original question of how much a run should pay... that is totally up to you. I have given teams jobs that paid well for some relatively simple work. Teams have also done jobs without getting paid at all (either knowingly or unknowingly.) Other times payment may come back in the form of a favor, access to equipment / services, etc. Payment really doesn't have to be commensurate with how difficult the specific job is. Some jobs just suck and do get the party screwed over a bit... it's part of the game... but that's my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt (or two, or three.)
Bottom line is that as long as everyone is having fun, the numbers shouldn't matter all too much.
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The problem with trying to balance monetary pay to karma gain is that the folks who use money more than karma get shortchanged. The folks who use karma tend to have abilities that are out of proportion to mundanes at the high end of play. This means that the mundane money users will start to fall behind on the (relative) power curve.
At the start of the runners' careers, parallel gains or equivalent karma to money gains makes sense. At the higher end, when the runners can make their own runs and can compete with corp security, all of it, all at once, then money is far more necessary and it is more logical for the runners to get more of it. Very few make it that long, but it is something to remember.
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I am not altogether certain that there is a single formula for rewards. I think it does pay to find out what the players desire for their characters and then -slowly- help them achieve that. Karma...well I am a big proponent of rewarding good rping during the course of a game so I tend to be generous for those that do a really good job. ;D
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You'll need some knowledge of German or a translation prog, but you may find this article on run payments useful:
http://rabenwelten.wordpress.com/2008/11/13/shadowrun-der-lohn-der-angst/
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This (http://daegann.free.fr/page.php?id=254) site has a slightly more thorough way of handling it. It includes modifiers for things like Mr. Johnson covering medical expenses, or having to do 'sensitive' work. It's in French, but not hard to translate.
It says the 'standard' rate (assuming veteran runners, average difficulty, about 2-3 days long, the usual) is 10,000¥. Now, the site says this is per runner, but I'm not sure if that's a little too much -- I'm thinking that this could easily be for the whole team, and be sufficient. (Depending on the size of the team, of course.)
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I tend to use a "quick and dirty" method specific to each group, but in every case take into account experience (average total karma earned), reputation (average of the "most reputable" and "least reputable" member), success ratio (a bit intangible in some cases when they go off mission "for a good cause" or "with reason") and expected Karma take from the job. Then I factor in "loot" they can find. Where it gets sticky is each game is different, some are high money games, some are low money worlds.
I always figure that "gang level" runners will be working for peanuts, toss them a few grand and they're in possession of more than they'll see in one place in a good long while and their "laying low" time is practically nonexistent. Low-level professionals are going to expect 5 to 10 grand on a run since they'll expect to have to lay low for two weeks to a month (giving them a "yearly gross income" between 60 and 120 grand a year). Mid-level professionals are going to be expecting 15 to 25 grand a mission, again figuring they'll be laying low one average one or two months between "real" jobs (average yearly gross income of 90 to 300 grand per year). High-level pros would be looking at 25 to 50 grand per job and expecting one to three months between big gigs (yearly gross income of 100 to 600 grand per year). Prime Runners are sky high, asking pretty much whatever they think is fair and walking off if the Johnson even thinks of balking because they're primary income is from making their own work now. Naturally how much money the GM wants floating around in the world and how tenacious they make their security and police will modify these things significantly in some cases, but again, to my way of thinking these numbers make sense, otherwise, they could make better money legitimately. Also note that the figures factor in "loot" such as paydata and crates of Predators they run across and fence or matrix scams they perpetrate with stolen commlinks, not just their Johnson's paychecks.
I've experimented in my games with "supplemental income" in the downtimes based on their total earned karma under the assumption that in-between "real jobs' they work smaller gigs and, just as they call on their contacts, other people have them as contacts; then paid them less for the missions. It works remarkably well in most cases with players willing to take less for the "main job" because they just got handed a few grand for "free" right off the bat for their "downtime work" leading to them getting less money overall. This works especially well in balancing the mundanes with the awakened since if one starts getting well ahead of the other, you can lengthen or shorten the downtimes meaning more Karma to money or vice versa without having to get a bit generous above your "usual" awards for a session.
As an aside, that idea was actually born out of a running gag by a player who, with my consent, always had "new gear" exactly like he'd had perviously. We were in the 400+ karma phase of the game and he found it amusing for his very careful, extremely meticulous PC to constantly lose and destroy his gear, cars, boats, guns and clothing doing downtime jobs and always made just enough and had just enough time to replace what had been lost or destroyed by the next run. The gag got picked up by the rigger/mechanic who would "mark" his car or boat when she did work on it and look for the mark (which was rarely ever there) the next time she worked on it. By the end of that game group he was on his 8th tricked out Westwind and gone through a nearly uncountable number of heavily customized Predator IIIs. Eventually, he added the free (since it had zero game effect) flaw "Borrowed it from Q-Branch" to his character sheet.
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I think it safe to say that taking out Damian Knight would demaded a price of several million nuyen, if anyone would take the job at all.
Payouts are tricky. You have to interest the runners, but don't overpay them-they'll get suspisious if you are offering too much for a simple job.
Mr Johnson's Little Black Book has some ideas about this subject. Best thing is use the tables you posted as a base until you get to know your players: what drives them? Properly motivated and informed Mr Jonson's can make some nice bank if they negotitate well. Look at this way: pretend your Johnson. Give yourself 200,000 nuyen to hire runners and pay for the op. Now, whatever you don't spend you get to keep. Not always the case, but helps understand how to play the meet.
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I think the payout table is a joke. There might be some kind of modifer I keep missing, but seriously? Look at some of those.
Johnson: I'll give you 5k to kill Damian Knight.
Runners: :o ??? :o :'(
Johnson: What? That's the going rate.
Even if those are the payouts for green runners it might be understandable. There should be some kind of modifer's based on the teams experience level (kinda like in Missions) and how tough or high profile the job is.
QFT.
In my mind Running is a high risk, high reward occupation, and HAS to pay more than being an average street criminal would pay. Think about how much some one could net boosting cars. Safer, easer than running - should pay less.
Good runner teams ALWAYS negotiate, even with dragons.
Damnyankee