Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: baronspam on <07-08-11/2310:59>
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There have been some hacker/technomancer threads lately. I was thinking of looking at the augmented/adept dicotomy a bit. It seems to me that Augmented has the clear edge at character creation (although you can certainly make a playable adept, I don't think they are optimal).
So question for discussion: do adepts have compensating factors for this. They can improve their adept powers with karma, but it can become a horrible karma skink to add more than a couple of points of magic. They have the advantage of being somewhat easier to heal, of not setting off MAD and cyberware scanners, etc, but those are fairly minor things. When the rubber meets the road, they seem to be somewhat behind of the power curve. What does anyone think? Do the adepts ever "catch up" or do they have elements that offset the street samurai's quick and easy road to power?
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As I can see it, there main advantage is that they can get more abilities than an augmented character can. An augmented character generally has 6 points of Essence to work with (excluding Cyberzombies). An adept has the advantage of being able to get an indefinite number of power points through initiation. Also, they can get Metamagic, such as Adept Centering and Item Bond. So yeah, as I see it, they can easily catch up. I also find it easier to create an adept at creation instead of a Street Sam, but that may just be me going "But what if I need that essence later?"
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And the addition of the path qualities from Way of the Adept really lets adepts keep their pace with the augmented character. Being able to reduce the power point cost of related powers, and the addition of giving each path their own specific adept power. It's a good read.
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Yes, it has always been a gripe of mine that a starting Sammie can wipe the floor (statistically speaking) with a starting Adept.
However, I tend to see the advantages in more abstract terms. Yes, a sammie for example is a very limited character. Great if that's all you want to play. But look at some of the adept powers. One that I found a particularly interesting use for is Multi-tasking. OK, not a combat power per say, but imagine if you are say an Adept who is say a leader of some group (military, merc, standard runner team, dosent matter). Being able to read the situation, issue orders, send return fire, etc all at the same time can be a VERY good thing when the waste matter hits the occalating cooling device.
Another adept power, linguistics. Being dropped into a new territory and being able to get at least a rudimentary understanding of the local language, also a VERY good thing.
So I guess the point is, that while in raw power the adept is at a disadvanage early on, creative use of adept powers can go a long way if the player is smart and that to me is a real advantage.
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A couple of things an Adept can do that the Augmented can't...
Bump their abilities up way high. The Street Sam is limited to Reflex Recorders, where the Adept only has the limits of how many points they want to sink into it and the 1.5 limitation.
Buy weapon foci. A nice little bonus for anyone who wants to kill people face to face and also useful if the Adept wants to astrally project, which is another thing the Street Sam can't do.
Be an unarmed monster. Stuff like Critical Strike, Killing Hands, Elemental Strike and so on.
I don't think Street Sam have an analogue to Spell Resistance.
Oh yeah, they can also have Mentor Spirits... which isn't that great as they don't spell cast, but if you really want the greatest gymnastics rating known to man it might be useful.
Where Adepts look really bad in comparision is how much it costs them to get long term boosts to their attributes and initative passes - statistically, if you want those, you're far better off as a Street Sam, or as an Adept with a bit of Augmentation.
The way I see it/have been told it, Street Sam make better all round combatants - they'll be faster, stronger and tougher. But the Adept is more skillful in his chosen spheres and probably uses Boost Attribute/Berserk to temporarily help close the Attribute gap if needs be (not that they'll be able to fully do it). In particular, the Adept can get a lot of bonuses for close combat and thrown which the Street Sam can't.
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Another adept power, linguistics. Being dropped into a new territory and being able to get at least a rudimentary understanding of the local language, also a VERY good thing.
Add the linguist positive quality to this and you get a language at 3 for no karma (1 for free from teh linguistics adept power, +2 from having the positive quality). This is very useful if you play a travel campaign or if you're in Lagos (where you have a lot of tribes).
I find that for general 'shoot them in the face' type of combats, the street sammie will probably statistically win. But for special situations you can do things with adept powers that no augmented can match. For instance the nerve strike power. I've always considered it a sort of Vulcan nerve pinch, but when you're sneaking into a facility, being able to take out the guards without shooting is very useful. Just give them a shot of Lael/laes afterwards and drop them slumped on a nearby desk and everybody will assume he's been sleeping on duty.
And with things like astral chameleon and masking metamagic, you actually don't show up as adept, whereas a street sammie can't pass close to certain places (like airports) because of all the scanners in the place.
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Adept is like mayonnaise... not very good on its own, but it goes well with other stuff. The comparison is best done between a cybered mundane, and a cybered adept focusing on the same skills.
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I would also submit that it depends on the campaign played. A short term one with lots of shootie-shootie, better to go sammy for that instant gratification kind of thing. More long term where there will be no limit, adept. I played one for damn near six years, and got him so powerful I had to retire him or risk game overbalance. Thing was, I should have been dead, but I knew when to back off and when to push....also helped that he was a long range shooter first.
8)
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Adepts lend themselves to hyper-specialization, and have some unique abilities that cannot be duplicated by technology. Also, while sammies can't get magic, adepts can get augmentations. Adepts with one or two points of bioware can be brutally effective, at the expense of losing some versatility.
Adepts are best at comparatively narrow roles (marksman or martial artist vs. overall combatant like a sammie), and they are also good at anti-magical roles, with powers such as spell resistance and killing hands, as well as the ability to use weapon foci.
They are actually very versatile characters - but they will come out second best if you try to build the equivalent of a street samurai with them. Because that's not really playing to their strengths.
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Having reflected on it a bit, another thing that I think the adepts would be very good at would be highly boosting non-combat skills. You can have a 20 dice infiltration pool straight out of char gen and still have enough magic left for a level of increased reflexes and a extra goodie or two. You don't even need outrageous skills/stats to do it. (4 skill plus 4 agi plus 12 from being an adept, cost you three magic points, less if you took way of the artisan) Same trick works for pilot, mechanic, armorer, hardware, etc. Or instead of one staggering bonus you can take two very good ones.
So I guess the idea is that for a straight up combat monster the street sami probably wins, at least until you have a dumptruck full of karma. Adepts can be used in other ways, however, such as skill specialists, anti-spirt/anti-magic combatants, etc.
Edit: Artisan's Way adepts only get a discount with techical skills. Invisible way adepts get a bonus with physical skills. I picked the wrong path in my example above.
Edit again: Bloody hell, doesn't really work. Maxium modified rating for a skill is base rating times 1.5. There goes my supa-ninja dwarf out the window.
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Another adept power, linguistics. Being dropped into a new territory and being able to get at least a rudimentary understanding of the local language, also a VERY good thing.
Add the linguist positive quality to this and you get a language at 3 for no karma (1 for free from teh linguistics adept power, +2 from having the positive quality).
Only if you have a nice GM, by RAW language skills have the same 1,5*current skill augmented limit as other skills.
As for the Adepts Advantage, it's that they can't get everything the mundane sammy can get and they can also get cool adept powers.
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(4 skill plus 4 agi plus 12 from being an adept, cost you three magic points, less if you took way of the artisan)
hows that possible ?
+2 for improved Ability Infiltration......
and the other +10 ?
(maybe its too early here in Germany (07:40 ) but I don't get it)
with an early Morning Dance
Medicineman
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Check his second edit - he forgot about the modified limit rules. You can get pretty high infiltration for an adept, but street sammies can hit 20 dice as well (Agility of 9 with muscle toner: 4 bought with the restricted gear quality, infiltration of 6 plus specialization, then 3 more points from the Catlike quality, a reflex recorder, and enhanced articulation - all this without stuff like exceptional Attribute, aptitude, or being an elf).
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There's a lot more to any game than hitting a stupid high skill rating.
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There's a lot more to any game than hitting a stupid high skill rating.
Like hitting stupid high combat numbers?
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There's a lot more to any game than hitting a stupid high skill rating.
Like hitting stupid high combat numbers?
I totally agree with Onion on this, unfortunately it also seems to depend on what kind of Game is being run. In my little group, for example, we have a DM who seems to have pretty much given up and his games are nothing BUT number crunches. *yawn*
Now, my games tend to be all about the plot and the characters. High scores are like money in real life: nice to have and make things a lot easier, but not necessary if spent wisely.
It's all about balance. A high score in say weapons isnt going to do you any good if you get hit with say some kind of mind-control thingie and your say willpower to resist is lower than a snake's backside. Whenever I see anyone with a "stupid high" number in anything, it just becomes GM fodder for me if it becomes unbalancing.
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When you're not doing a dice pool exercise of "how high can this skill get", high dice pools get to a point of diminishing returns. From a number-crunching point of view, you are sacrificing your ability in other areas, or taking on weaknesses, to get a dice pool that will probably be overkill most of the time. From a roleplaying point of view, you will be bored, both when using your specialty (because it is too easy), and when not using your specialty (because you can't do anything else well). From a metagaming point of view, it's usually better to have a dice pool of 18-20 and fly below the radar, than to have a dice pool of 24+ and have the GM upping the difficulty of encounters to "challenge" you, and focusing on all of your character's weaknesses in other areas.
But while roleplaying is important, having appropriate dice pools is also important. The dice are a tool to approximate what the character can do, and provide an impartial mechanism for resolving this (as well as introducing a truly random factor into the game). I typically work on stats and background in tandem - if my character is a crack shot, a schmoozing wheeler-dealer, dumb as a sack of bricks, or tough as nails, then it should be reflected in that character's stats and dice pools.
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As has been said earlier that adepts have powers not replicable in augments. Just to name a few: Elemental Strike, Gliding, Freefall, Cloak, Commanding Voice, Distance Strike. And the list goes on. And of course the converse is also true. Plenty of augments that there are no adept powers for.
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But while roleplaying is important, having appropriate dice pools is also important. The dice are a tool to approximate what the character can do, and provide an impartial mechanism for resolving this (as well as introducing a truly random factor into the game). I typically work on stats and background in tandem - if my character is a crack shot, a schmoozing wheeler-dealer, dumb as a sack of bricks, or tough as nails, then it should be reflected in that character's stats and dice pools.
The above is more or less where I come out on this as well. If the characters are breaking into highly secure bases, frequently taking on numerically superior opponents, and just generally doing cutting edge black ops, you need more than nine dice in your primary dice pool. I am not the type of player who needs the absolue max, but shadowruners should stat out as elite professionals if they expect to be paid as elite professionals.
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But while roleplaying is important, having appropriate dice pools is also important. The dice are a tool to approximate what the character can do, and provide an impartial mechanism for resolving this (as well as introducing a truly random factor into the game). I typically work on stats and background in tandem - if my character is a crack shot, a schmoozing wheeler-dealer, dumb as a sack of bricks, or tough as nails, then it should be reflected in that character's stats and dice pools.
The above is more or less where I come out on this as well. If the characters are breaking into highly secure bases, frequently taking on numerically superior opponents, and just generally doing cutting edge black ops, you need more than nine dice in your primary dice pool. I am not the type of player who needs the absolue max, but shadowruners should stat out as elite professionals if they expect to be paid as elite professionals.
If you're capping out at 9 dice, you're making your adepts wrong.
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If you're capping out at 9 dice, you're making your adepts wrong.
Wow... REALLY wrong! :o
Don't misunderstand, I also believe that Augments are a better mechanical starting point than Adepts (from a purist CharGen PoV, and pardon the pun on mechanical), but 9 dice in any primary skill is just, well, poor management.
At the very least, you should be looking at a Single attribute of 6, and a primary skill of 4-5. That's 10-11 dice before Specialisations, enhancements (Smartlink/Weapon mod), Improved Skills etc etc.
The Adept in our team began the game with 6 Agility (Elf, non-Maxxed), Blades Skill 4, Custom grip on his weapons (+1 dice).
Without any power gaming or even Adept powers, that's 11 dice.
For Athletic Skills, he went a bit Berserk with Improved skills, and Gymnastics was easily 14 dice at CharGen.
I'm concerned about any Adept capping primary (or secondary) skills at 9 :o
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Nine dice wasn't a literal figure. My point was that there was some posts that seemed to be saying "don't worry about the numbers so much and roleplay". That is nice and all, but this is a game, and games have mechanics, the this thread was originally about the balance of mechanics between adepts and augmented characters. I have never considered myself a power gamer, and I am not one of those guys who needs to have "the best" character. But at the same time, I enjoy the mechanical aspects of rpgs, Shadowrun has clearly defined benchmarks for various skill levels (you can look up stats for a typical security guard, a Lonestar Officer, and elite corp operative like the Red Samurai, etc). For a character to be a black ops operative for hire that can demand significant sums for their work (i.e. a shadowrunner) its pretty clear what kind of numbers you need to be putting up to be "good" at you main skills. Runners tend to fall into that "always outnumbered, always outgunned" category, and its brains and extreem skill that allow them to carry the day.
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Quite sure, didn't even saw the topic till now but for me the advantage to fight spirits and resisting magic is the most important thing that put him over the cyber dudes, even a rigger will do more damage than the adept, but can he enter with his helicopter, his truck, or his large drones in the place? Usually can't, so they rely on the medium and usually the small ones that are not really good for power... the urban samurai also draws more attention, MAD whatever, but the worst is that he can be hacked sometimes, he would be owned by magic or spirits, so he is like a drone that happen to have a body at his chassis... like a cheapo biodrone.
The adept can yet be dangerous, especially if the ninja style, but some juggernauts (if Troll quite obvious) also are nice, I like better ninjas, since stealth kills require not much damage and the skill counts more... and can defend from attacks that urban samurai can't even know about...
More than a Tecnomancer compared to a Hacker the adept can become better than the urban samurai... but the other way around... and hacker adepts are also better than mundane hackers sometimes, just will need to lose 1 essence point if wanna get the best matrix IPs but anyway even here they are not to be forgotten.
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More than a Tecnomancer compared to a Hacker the adept can become better than the urban samurai... but the other way around... and hacker adepts are also better than mundane hackers sometimes, just will need to lose 1 essence point if wanna get the best matrix IPs but anyway even here they are not to be forgotten.
I could've sworn that Trodes worked just fine these days so that a Datajack wasn't really all that necessary for a Hacker any more. In such a case, a Hacker-Adept wouldn't even need to lose that 1 point of Essence...
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He'd loose it for the SimSin Enhancer or Math SPU or implanted Hot SIM but not neccesserily for the DJ....
.OK, when theres .1 or .08 Essence left over its cool to have a pimped Datajack 8)
with a pimped Dance
Medicineman
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Adepts lend themselves to hyper-specialization, and have some unique abilities that cannot be duplicated by technology. Also, while sammies can't get magic, adepts can get augmentations. Adepts with one or two points of bioware can be brutally effective, at the expense of losing some versatility.
Adepts are best at comparatively narrow roles (marksman or martial artist vs. overall combatant like a sammie), and they are also good at anti-magical roles, with powers such as spell resistance and killing hands, as well as the ability to use weapon foci.
They are actually very versatile characters - but they will come out second best if you try to build the equivalent of a street samurai with them. Because that's not really playing to their strengths.
Empathic healing is not espically powerful but is definitely not in the Sammies wheel house. The biggest advantage as everyone has stated already is that the adept has a ton of room to grow and improve while essence doesn't give the wired crowd such capabilities.
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An adept is a ninja, not a samurai.
A good ninja will get wiped by a good samurai in a stand up fight, but the point of the ninja is to never get into a stand up fight.
Adepts still make great hackers/riggers/medics too.
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An adept is a ninja, not a samurai.
A good ninja will get wiped by a good samurai in a stand up fight, but the point of the ninja is to never get into a stand up fight.
So in other words: cheat...often. And, play to the strengths of your character. If you are stupid enough to take on a troll sammie tank with only a light pistol, you get what you deserve. Now, if you want to hide a grenade in his breakfast cereal, that's being smart! Because remember the only fair fight is the one you lose. I also believe in preemtive strikes and parting shots.
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If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin.
But the thing about a cyber sam is that anyone with UWB radar will see him plainly for what he is.
An adept with masking can walk right past security and kill at an alarming rate.
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...The biggest advantage as everyone has stated already is that the adept has a ton of room to grow and improve while essence doesn't give the wired crowd such capabilities.
That's not entirely true. With grades of cyberware available (all the way up to delta) the avg. street sam will never max his capabilities. What he'll do is just remove the older less tricked out cyber and replace them with a higher grade of cyberware free essence for the new & improved stuff...
Also note that if by some miracle the street sam does manage to max out his essence he could just sell all him augmentation and retire... ;)
Adi
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When you're not doing a dice pool exercise of "how high can this skill get", high dice pools get to a point of diminishing returns. From a number-crunching point of view, you are sacrificing your ability in other areas, or taking on weaknesses, to get a dice pool that will probably be overkill most of the time. From a roleplaying point of view, you will be bored, both when using your specialty (because it is too easy), and when not using your specialty (because you can't do anything else well). From a metagaming point of view, it's usually better to have a dice pool of 18-20 and fly below the radar, than to have a dice pool of 24+ and have the GM upping the difficulty of encounters to "challenge" you, and focusing on all of your character's weaknesses in other areas.
But while roleplaying is important, having appropriate dice pools is also important. The dice are a tool to approximate what the character can do, and provide an impartial mechanism for resolving this (as well as introducing a truly random factor into the game). I typically work on stats and background in tandem - if my character is a crack shot, a schmoozing wheeler-dealer, dumb as a sack of bricks, or tough as nails, then it should be reflected in that character's stats and dice pools.
I absolutely agree with this post in an almost religious fevor way. It is the heart of making a playable character for your game. You absolutely need to have a character sheet that reflects the characters ability. Having a Street Samurai who has 10 die in their primary attack is weak and would hurt the playing of the character in game vs real opposition kinda. I say kinda because the GM is going to scale the encounter to challenge your groups level. So if you make the same Sammie with a primary 20 die pool it would just mean maybe 4 more badguys standing there and maybe better weapons, etc. Math should reflect what you want your character to be but don't go NASA on it. The GM will just equalize it and many things you sacrificed in the character to add those 5 more die to your prime attk will kinda be wasted. Your character will get better and Karma up to Prime Runner sooner than you think and the getting there is the fun part.
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...The biggest advantage as everyone has stated already is that the adept has a ton of room to grow and improve while essence doesn't give the wired crowd such capabilities.
That's not entirely true. With grades of cyberware available (all the way up to delta) the avg. street sam will never max his capabilities. What he'll do is just remove the older less tricked out cyber and replace them with a higher grade of cyberware free essence for the new & improved stuff...
Also note that if by some miracle the street sam does manage to max out his essence he could just sell all him augmentation and retire... ;)
Adi
Thats true, but those improved grades of 'ware are really expensive. By the time the street sammi has converted his entire kit to delta ware the adept could retire to a high lifestyle condo in Havana and spend every morning playing golf and drinking blender rum drinks.
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...The biggest advantage as everyone has stated already is that the adept has a ton of room to grow and improve while essence doesn't give the wired crowd such capabilities.
That's not entirely true. With grades of cyberware available (all the way up to delta) the avg. street sam will never max his capabilities. What he'll do is just remove the older less tricked out cyber and replace them with a higher grade of cyberware free essence for the new & improved stuff...
Also note that if by some miracle the street sam does manage to max out his essence he could just sell all him augmentation and retire... ;)
Adi
Thats true, but those improved grades of 'ware are really expensive. By the time the street sammi has converted his entire kit to delta ware the adept could retire to a high lifestyle condo in Havana and spend every morning playing golf and drinking blender rum drinks.
That depends completely on the Karma:Nuyen ratio. To keep things even all it takes is the occasional heavy pay job. In the one game I played the adept did become very effective but the street sam was never far behind. In fact the street same had a much more rounded selection of skills and his move by wire 2 made sure even in close combat (the adepts specialty) he could mitigate whatever the adept was doing to him. He had 18 dice on full dodge so getting out of the way was never an issue.
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My 2 creds:
Adepts may be a tad on the lower powered side, but this comes with a few advantages:
A: Less likely to be randomly jumped by various security forces because you gleamed your shoulder at them in the wrong way
B: It costs less to go to a dojo/whathave every day for a month or two to get a new power then to go out and buy your new enhancement and then go to the doc and have him install it.
C: Did I mention that you're a HELL of a lot less obvious on the material plane? Though, I guess in some circles this would make you more obvious, but in general...
D: You can have only so many augments to cover so many possibilites, while a high point Adept with a decent Initiation level can cover most anything.
But, Street Sams have their place as a much harder hitting, harder to kill character in general, probably using heavier weapons as well.
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D: You can have only so many augments to cover so many possibilites, while a high point Adept with a decent Initiation level can cover most anything.
I think there's a flaw in that one because good adepts are rarely generalists. In fact I don't think I've ever seen a good adept that wasn't a specialist. On the other hand augmented characters can make amazing generalists. I did it in a very expensive way with my bio/genetech Street Sam but even so did it in a very effective way. I could do even better with cheaper cyberware and some adapsin/biocompatibility. Used Alphaware is also your friend.
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D: You can have only so many augments to cover so many possibilites, while a high point Adept with a decent Initiation level can cover most anything.
I think there's a flaw in that one because good adepts are rarely generalists. In fact I don't think I've ever seen a good adept that wasn't a specialist. On the other hand augmented characters can make amazing generalists. I did it in a very expensive way with my bio/genetech Street Sam but even so did it in a very effective way. I could do even better with cheaper cyberware and some adapsin/biocompatibility. Used Alphaware is also your friend.
Have to agree here. Its far easier for an augmented character to boost a large number of stats, compaired to even a 6 magic adept. With excellent stats and moderate skills (something pretty easy to do as augmented) you can make someone with decent dice pools in quite a few areas. Generalists typically are augmented.
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Though being an adept essentially makes every build better. 5 BP and I can score 2-3 extra dice for just about any skill? Yes please.
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Though being an adept essentially makes every build better. 5 BP and I can score 2-3 extra dice for just about any skill? Yes please.
Well, its 5 bp plus the cost of the magic and then largely staying away from mods to maintain the magic. Not saying that being able to directly bonus the skill of your choice isn't very nice, especially if you want to have 9 or 10 skill in something offbeat, but it comes at a price.
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1 free magic point with the quality. Boosting most skills are .25 to .5 points. An easy 2-3 extra dice to share among a couple of skills for 5 bp. Most builds stay above 1 essence so that isn't much of an issue.
Really I can see why people call it Magicrun at times. "You good at your job? Well as long as you stay above 1 essence you can always make yourself better for a minimal investment."
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No. Essence does not just cap your maximum Magic, losing essence also drops your current magic. If you start with Magic 1 for just Adept, any ware at all will lose you your point of magic. See SR4A p68.
I think people tend to think Adept is better than it is because there's so many different things adepts can hypothetically do. The problem is adepts have a lot of ultra-specific powers, many of which are grossly overpriced, so any real adept is going to either suck, or be a specialist in one of the not-overpriced areas. But there are no areas where the adept doesn't eventually hit the point of "all the powers I want cost more PP than ware that does the same thing costs Essence," so all adepts are better off getting ware.
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No. Essence does not just cap your maximum Magic, losing essence also drops your current magic. If you start with Magic 1 for just Adept, any ware at all will lose you your point of magic. See SR4A p68.
I think people tend to think Adept is better than it is because there's so many different things adepts can hypothetically do. The problem is adepts have a lot of ultra-specific powers, many of which are grossly overpriced, so any real adept is going to either suck, or be a specialist in one of the not-overpriced areas. But there are no areas where the adept doesn't eventually hit the point of "all the powers I want cost more PP than ware that does the same thing costs Essence," so all adepts are better off getting ware.
As an academic exercise I worked on a human adept character last night. I have always gone the all magic route with adepts before, but I decided to try to mix in a little bioware and see what I could come up with. I don't have the full build at hand, but between maxed skill and specialization, high agility, surge, adpet powers, and 1 essence worth of bioware, and 10 bp of martial arts, he had 20 dice for unarmed combat, and hit for 7 physical plus electric damage. He had enough left over for some athletics, infiltration, a couple of firearms skills, and a bit of perception. Very much a specialist, but probably the most successful adept I have ever built. Even that one essence worth of bioware made a huge difference on his stats, and only cost me 50,000 nuyen, or 10 bp when I was done.
On the other hand, I think a street sami could probably duplicate that with cyberware and martial arts, or at least get very close. but the point is that I finally had a adept that I felt was going to at least be competitive in his role with a high end sami, and also be able to punch spirits in the face if the issue came up. I think I have crossed over to the darkside and bought into the idea that an adept should take at least a little bit of bioware.
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I tried and failed, repeatedly, to make an adept who didn't have Sensitive System, wasn't a sapient critter or other "no ware lolz" species, and would from a pure optimization standpoint not want 'ware.
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1 free magic point with the quality. Boosting most skills are .25 to .5 points. An easy 2-3 extra dice to share among a couple of skills for 5 bp. Most builds stay above 1 essence so that isn't much of an issue.
Really I can see why people call it Magicrun at times. "You good at your job? Well as long as you stay above 1 essence you can always make yourself better for a minimal investment."
If I misunderstood how Essence and Magic interacted with one another, I might call it MagicRun, too.
Essence does not merely set the cap for your potential Magic score. Essence lost (at character creation or afterwards) lowers your Magic. Period. If you spend 5 BP for the Adept Positive Quality, you receive 1 Magic Point. If you do not spend the BP to increase that Magic above 1, the purchase of anything that negatively impacts Essence -- a datajack, let's say -- lowers your Essence to 5.99, and your Magic to 0.
Congratulations, you've built a burn-out.
In order to mix augmentation and Adept powers, you need to buy your Magic up (capping, and costing extra, at 6 during character creation), and then knock it back down for every bit of Essence loss you pick up mingling in 'ware. You're throwing BP out the window, in other words, in order to try and purchase and maintain an effective Magic rating, if you dip too heavily into augmentation.
You can't make a hardcore Street Sammy with just 1.01 Essence left, and have any Adept power points, in other words...unless you bought his Magic up to 6 (including the extra cost for capping it), at which point you'd have 1 Magic point left (and would be capped at 1 level of any power, as per the usual limitations) to be a "better" Street Samurai.
Hopefully this clarifies the rules situation for you, and will let you re-evaluate your "MagicRun" condemnation, at least where Adepts are concerned.
I tried and failed, repeatedly, to make an adept who didn't have Sensitive System, wasn't a sapient critter or other "no ware lolz" species, and would from a pure optimization standpoint not want 'ware.
Which is a flaw with the core SR4 rules, and one I've bemoaned for years now. I think the primary culprit is the criminally overpriced attribute increases that Adepts get, compared to the efficiency of similar augmentation through mundane means. If you can get basic Muscle Toner for .4 to increase Agility from 6 to 7, and it costs 1.5 to get the same increase through Adept powers...yeah, it's a no brainer.
I partially tried to help with just those same sort of characters in Way of the Adept by offering power discounts, but it was beyond my reach to just outright alter the prices of Adept powers, unfortunately. It's something I hope I'm still around to bitch about when SR5 is getting worked on.
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Which is a flaw with the core SR4 rules, and one I've bemoaned for years now. I think the primary culprit is the criminally overpriced attribute increases that Adepts get, compared to the efficiency of similar augmentation through mundane means. If you can get basic Muscle Toner for .4 to increase Agility from 6 to 7, and it costs 1.5 to get the same increase through Adept powers...yeah, it's a no brainer.
This is the exact problem. Some SURGE for improved agility, a restricted gear quality, and muscle toner 4 (doesn't really cost that much nuyen, and less than 1 essence) and you are sitting on an agility of 10. Adepts just can't compete with that, at least strictly with adept powers. And if you are compairing adept vs. augmented, the augmented throws on some reactioin enhances, wired reflexes, a bone mod, a skin mod, etc, and his stats are crazy. The return that the street sami gets for 50 points in gear is crazy when compaired to the return that the adept gets for spending 50 points on magic. And yes, the adept can raise his abilties through karma alone, but its incredibly expensive. lets say you have already boosed your agility by 2 and are at or above your metatype unmodified max for agility, and that you are at a magic of 6. To get two more points of agility (which the restricted gear sami has out of the box) you need three initiations and three points of magic. Thats 168 karma!!!
By carefully mixing magic and bioware, and staying very focued, you can make adepts that are competive in a particular area, and adepts have certain roles (like anti-sprit/anti-magic) that the sami can't really take on. But overall I am still not really convinced that adepts are balanced.
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And neither am I, even with The Way of the Adept. There's a reason I was fighting tooth and nail to get the e-book published, and there's a reason my initial drafts were quite a bit more favorable towards Adepts (not costing points, for instance). But when playtesters and The-Powers-That-Be both disagree and want things toned down, you compromise and tone it down in order to get anything published. ;)
So I'm picking my battles and now hoping to use The Way of the Adept as a sort of leverage point when SR5 discussions begin in earnest, so I can say "See? Fans agree, Adepts need some help, and here's my math to back it up."
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And neither am I, even with The Way of the Adept. There's a reason I was fighting tooth and nail to get the e-book published, and there's a reason my initial drafts were quite a bit more favorable towards Adepts (not costing points, for instance). But when playtesters and The-Powers-That-Be both disagree and want things toned down, you compromise and tone it down in order to get anything published. ;)
So I'm picking my battles and now hoping to use The Way of the Adept as a sort of leverage point when SR5 discussions begin in earnest, so I can say "See? Fans agree, Adepts need some help, and here's my math to back it up."
Better balanced adept costs is on my long list of things I want to see fixed in 5e. It is getting better especially with the way of the adept, but in some areas you have to suck at math or really want to stick to that pure aura concept not to take bioware/cyber.
I remember when 4e first came out and my troll adept boxer character was made. Initially I wanted him to be a pure adept, but getting my improved reflexes cost too much. I'd have put over 1/2 my power points into it and would have cost 30 points where as for 42 points I got the same speed and only used 1 magic, leaving me 4 more magic to play with. It really was a no brainer, and yeah I raised my magic just so I wouldn't lose magic when I improved my agility. It would have cost me 3 magic to get the same through adept powers.
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The issue is extremely easy to see. When you have magically active characters willingly, even gladly, sacrificing essence/magic then you don't have things pointed correctly. When you can get 2-4 times as much benefit from taking 'ware as you can from the loss in magic it is out of whack. A slight edge to the 'ware I think most people are fine with.
However 1.0 of essence (with no grades, no biocompatibility, type 0 system etc) gets you what would amount to 3.75 (basically 4) points of magic (more if it would take you into augmented levels). It should be glaringly obvious something is either over costed or under costed. Now the new ways reduces that from the 'ware being 4 times better, to only being 3 times better.
However this is only at base gear levels. If you push delta and biocompatibility that 1 point of essence becomes an even larger level of benefit. I don't know about other people play their games, but I have yet to play in one that nuyen did not accumulate faster than karma. Now compound that with an augmented character using nuyen to buy gear for bonuses, and then spending karma to raise abilities. Compared to a pure magical character only being able to spend karma to raise their performance. So on top of the just pure numerical advantage 'ware gives, it also allows the same double benefit that a street sam style character gets to take advantage of.
Then lets look at very end of life for characters. Unlimited money with 1500 karma. How many more dice is the adept rolling than the sammie? What 1 or 2? They will have same base skill ratings, same attributes, same gear bonuses, and same 'ware bonuses. So that puts the adept up with what 2 points via improved ability. The only area at which the adept exceeds the street sam is in close combat. Weapon foci for armed combat, and critical strike (and the adon abilites to killing hands) provide the only benefits that the street sam cannot duplicate. Hitting spirits/paracritters is an extension of this since an adept won't hurt them anymore than the street sam with ranged attacks, so that is tied directly to their close combat abilities.
So if you are going to do combat you go close combat or why bother. Now the bright side is with way of the adept you can get some really good noncombat adepts. Infiltration, physical ability, artistic ability, building/repairing things all got a nice boost. Basically bringing them inline with faces (what with their way specific powers duplicating kinesics bonuses), or providing mental attribute boosts. Faces still come out slightly ahead what with getting way discounts on their dice pool adding power.
Also the disparity has existed as far back as 2nd. I remember it being something like 53 karma extra to build an adept that matched the sample character street sam.
Saying all that. I do love my adepts. I will fight you tooth and nail to play one in a game. It goes to just being a cool factor. Still would be nice to catch a little bit of a break with them. Like if your magic rating actually started capped out like it did in 2nd. That'd be 65 build points that would help elsewhere. Push combat improved ability to 0.25 as well, improved reflexes to cost the same as the rating (1/2/3), reduce improved attribute down to 0.5 (and make it work for any attribute, and give the ways a discount on them for yanking their special ability), reduce pain resistance to 0.25. I would also like to see rapid healing add to peoples healing tests to heal you, like the quick healer quality, and reduce astral perception to 0.5 (always seemed a bit much at a full point). Also voice control should add the same dice benefits as the vocal bioware upgrade (same power point cost as essence, do the same things) has bugged me since I first got the Augmentation book.
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Money is never unlimited, and I think it would be very rare for a game to get to 1500 karma. Realistically, that's several hundred completed adventures, which may take more than one session each to complete. I think I read the average gaming group meets twice a month. Even gaming weekly that's years of play, most groups never make it that long.
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So why not house rule the cost to be as low as cyber?
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Lots of people do in fact have various houserules about adepts. That doesn't mean that a problem doesn't exist, only that the problem is fixable. But actually, lowering the price of adept powers doesn't really fix their core problems - it makes more people want to "dip" adept, perhaps a few people that formerly wouldn't bother otherwise, but it actually makes pure adept LESS attractive relative to mystic adept or cybered adept.
I should probably make a "why adepts blow trolls for pocket change" thread sometime.
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Yeah. Hate to say it, but pure adepts are essentially a "suboptimal for flavor" build. I wouldn't say they suck, but nearly any adept build can be improved with 'ware.
For combat adepts, you want synaptic boosters and muscle toner, because it is so much cheaper than improving Attributes and initiative passes with Magic. Even for adept hackers or faces, who are awesome, there's no reason not to get some augmentations, too, and be even more awesome. Kinesics stacks with tailored pheromones. Improved ability: hacking stacks with an encephalon and PuSHeD.
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Ya know, after some thought, and to be honest having just read Way of the Adept, I've realized I really am a purist. Something about mixing that much magic and cyber/bio just dosen't seem to hold any attraction for me anymore. Its like getting a classic car, a pure work of art and slapping a bunch of cheap bumper or window stickers on it.
Yeah adepts are a bit behind the curve, but once you get them going, they really can be kick ass. Mixing and matching just seems a bit, munchy to me and that the only idea is to build an optimised machine rather than a character. Now if that floats your boat, that's OK. We all want to kick ass when we play. But I've found that sound tactics and common sence can make up for a few less dice to throw.
Just my .25 yen
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Well it also depends on the character. You start out pure, and then you have the street sammies passing you up. So you think, if it works for them, it would work for me. So you grab a couple things to ease life along. However you lost a few of your tricks. Your character might not even know about initiating to get better at magic. So he starts thinking, well now I need a few more pieces of 'ware to make up for that. Down the burnout path you go.
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+1 Mystic.
If we wanted to play competitive algebra, we'd go play 3.75 with the Pathfinder kiddies (and yes, I will out algebra you there too, Pathfinder Orazilla is far more frightening than any 3.5zilla ever was).
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+1 Mystic.
If we wanted to play competitive algebra, we'd go play 3.75 with the Pathfinder kiddies (and yes, I will out algebra you there too, Pathfinder Orazilla is far more frightening than any 3.5zilla ever was).
Danke. And funny enough, I just got home from playing Pathfinder a few hours ago. OK more like creepy, but hey let's roll with it. It's not a bad game system, but it DOES lend itself for as you call it "competitive algebra" (gonna use that some night if you don't mind).
Case in point: (SOAPBOX WARNING!!!) my current group has been playing it for a while now under two GMs. Now in both groups we have gained some pretty high levels, 14 being the average. And both times, both GMs have resorted to always having to "amp up" our encounters and they turn into slug fests and dice roll vs dice roll. No tactics, no role play, no character. With both my characters (one of them me because its an "Us" game), I've worked up a history, and picked feats, weapons, skills, etc based on what I thought would fit me or my style, rather than what would make me just another generic badass. Result: GMs are frusturated because everything seems to be a "cakewalk" for us, and players getting tired of GMs bitching and throwing insane crap at us just for the sake of us taking damage.
News flash to all GM/DMs: Damage to your PCs does NOT equal "challenge". Coming up with sound or new tactics and forcing us to adjust to those tactics is the challenge. Another flash: amping up numbers for their own sake IS NOT a "tactic". I don't mind taking on tougher opponents as I get tougher, but doing it for it's own sake just to stay ahead of me gets old. Throw me a curve, make me think beyond the math skills I learned in the 3rd grade. Big bad dragon no problem, how about framing me for a crime and forcing me to prove my innocence or be hunted for the rest of my life? Oh, and don't blame me if I am able to come up with good skill and attribute combinations, allow me to purchace kick-ass weapons by the book, and then whine that you can't do anything to stop me when your dice go cold or when I use sound or new tactics against YOU.
Point always is: a character is more than a set of numbers. Treat is as such and more often than not your game will suffer. Give it some genuine feeling, thought, and maybe a bit of "soul" and chances are you'll enjoy yourself a lot more. And that's why I only like Pathfinder and LOVE Shadowrun. SR is more for a role-player, not a roll player.
*waves hands in frustration and gets off soapbox*
Now back to our regularly scheduled insanity, already in progress...
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Huh... I've never had a problem like that in the Pathfinder games I've been in. Right now, the GM running us through Rise of the Runelords has had to reconfigure the adventures, but that's because it was written for 3.5 and not actual Pathfinder.
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Virtually all game systems can be played tactically with new challenges being given by the GM or played by numbers with just bigger and badder encounters. SR tactics can be complex in one game or just be I grab cover in another game. 4e D&D people like to call it a tactical game but most of the people when they are talking tactics are really talking power/feat combinations for absurd damage. Not saying there isn't tactics in the game, just what you see on the forums. And most of the honest to god tactical elements in 4e D&D are in 3.? but the game is less chess piece like so it isn't as obvious.
Savage worlds, paladium, WOD, battletech/mechwarrior all have tactical elements but they can be busted down to a numbers game.
The problem is while I can say well good tactics make up for 3 extra dice, there is nothing stopping me from having good tactics and 3 extra dice. I can get my numbers game down in every system but still play smart.
Ideally even the numbers game would be a "tactical element" where there are positives and negatives and the decision is based more on outside factors(character concept) and not just that one is always the better choice mechanically. I don;t mind some sub=optimal choices in the game or just plain bad choices but they should not be for a core singular element to a character type. In previous editions they had a crappy cyber for initiative enhancements and that was kind of cool, it was a bad choice in most cases but street sams had other options. With one option available for adepts to permanently boost an attribute or reaction through magic it should be a competitive choice.
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You can come up with some decently optimized pure adepts, though. Example: 6 Magic, one of those "ways" that gives you a 25% discount on certain powers. Get improved reflexes: 3, improved abiity: 3, and combat sense: 3, for 7 power points, discounted down to 5.25. With the remaining 0.75, get counterstrike: 1 and agility boost: 1. Make this character a blades fighter, with one of his blades a Force: 4 weapon focus bought with the restricted gear quality. Get three levels of martial arts to get +2 DV for blades and be able to do damage on a disarm. Get the iaijutsu, disarm, off-hand training, riposte, and two-weapon fighting style maneuvers. You will wind up with a character that does incredibly well on offense, and even better on blocking and counterattacking.
Similarly, adept faces and technos can simply settle for their magical bonuses, and not add the technical ones. To compensate, they will have more power points for peripheral abilities. The face might be able to get facial sculpt, skin pigmentation, and linguistics, while the techno might be able to get eidetic sense memory, multi-tasking, nimble fingers, and sustenance.
The only type of adept where I really feel the need for bioware is an unarmed specialist - they have so much stuff they need to get for it, that getting a synaptic booster and muscle toner is a very compelling shortcut.
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Huh... I've never had a problem like that in the Pathfinder games I've been in. Right now, the GM running us through Rise of the Runelords has had to reconfigure the adventures, but that's because it was written for 3.5 and not actual Pathfinder.
My problem is not with the game, I rather enjoy the game and the game universe. It's the GM, some of the players, and both with their lack of imagination. We're already five modules into RotRLs, and they are well done. But when the GM pretty much says "you enter the room, you see five figures, roll initiative" it gets boring. And that's kind of the heart of the problem, my GMs for PF (and most other games) have pretty much given up. Im considering going elsewhere, but these are my friends outside of gaming.
And thats kind of how I see this Adept VS Sammie thing. Sammies are great if you want an instant ass kicker but for long term Adepts offer a lot more. Sad thing is, most don't want to wait or games fall apart before an adept can reach their full potential. It took me over six years and playing at multiple tables to get my signature character where he was through second and third editions. Not many people get a third of that time to develop a character, no matter what the game is.
And yes, it's sad when people think that tactics are nothing more than coming up with destructive combos and try and turn an RPG into nothing more than a video game on paper. I guess it all comes down to what kind of game do you and your group want to play.
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Back to one of Mystic's earlier posts...
I totally agree that what makes Adepts more fun to play is their neat powers rather than their stat boosts. Also, I've made a great generalist adept (though he is tricked out with 2 essence points of ware), so it can be done. He's a little weak on one of his 4 primary roles, but that's to be expected. Besides, that's what karma's for, right?
Things like wall-running, multi-tasking, elemental strike, voice control (far superior to the vocal enhancer doohickey for augments), traceless walk, commanding voice, etc. etc. are just awesome. They put a lot of tools in your box for overcoming obstacles that augments simply can't equip themselves to deal with. My generalist took no skill / stat enhancing powers and limited it to pure "toolbox powers" (as I like to call them) and one combat power. He's a hacker/face/martial artist/infiltrator whose only combat power is nerve strike. He's a blast to play. You simply couldn't hope to do all of that with an augmented character. I love adepts.
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Cardinal rule of gaming: play to your strenghts, stay away from your weaknesses. Ignore this at your own peril.