Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: The Dweller on <07-29-11/1210:10>
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A fair number of people seem to have the view that physical adepts don't quite stack up to augmented characters at character creation. Well, I won't deny they can end up being the stereotype 'one-trick pony.' But if that trick is good enough, you might find it can take you pretty far.
The following is modified from a character idea I had helped someone build for a local game. And I have to say I was quite surprised at what I discovered an adept could be capable of starting fresh with in a normal 400BP build. Two things to keep in mind: If a GM applied the dice pool caps from SR4a p.61, this idea would have a limit of 28 dice to any one pool (so its fine). And second, a panther cannon has a base damage profile of 10P, AP -5 (keep this in mind).
I won't fill in all the stats here. Just the ones needed to make this example. So without further ado....
Elven Physical Adept
Agility 7, Reaction 5 (7), Strength 4, Intuition 3, Magic 6, Initiative 10, Passes 3, Unarmed Combat 7 (10) +2 (SP Martial Arts)
Qualities: Adept, Aptitude (Unarmed Combat), Martial Arts II (Tae Kwon Do), The Warrior's Way*
Adept Powers: Improved Reflexes 2*, Critical Strike 6*, Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat) 3*, Penetrating Strike 3 (total power point cost: 4.89)
Martial Art Maneuvers: Finishing Move, Full Offense, Kick Attack, Multi-Strike
Martial Art Advantages: +1 die on Charging attacks, +1DV on Unarmed Combat attacks
Gear: Hardliner Gloves, Assorted Armor (anything Softweave modified is good, form fitting and securetech PPP parts)
In case you're not following and doing the math (and possibly already slack-jawed), here's how it comes together"
Base melee combat pool is 19 with specialization. Lets say Bruce here just had two triad posse members try and shake him down for everything he owns in an alley. Bruce is at a dead end and they're at medium range (15m) with their machine pistols. One of them has a knife, the other a sword. Bruce takes a combat stance to show them hes not intimidated. Combat begins.
Note: to avoid a lot of dice rolling to show this example, I'm going to say 1 in 3 dice is a success for everybody, rounding down. Feel free to use 'Bruce' in some examples yourself and roll the dice if you want to see something with more chance.
Initiative: Bruce gets a 13, the triads 10. Bruce goes 'kung fu' on them, declares full offense and Charges both of them (+6 dice added to his pool,and he can cover up to 25m on the run). Bruce has a dice pool of 25 currently and throws 12 dice at the knife wielder and 13 at the swordsman. Neither posse member is very worried at this time and so they each elect to parry (7 dice for each). Bruce gets 2 net successes versus each.
Combat Note: the sword's reach really doesn't help here. Bruce threw in an extra die in case the reach made a negative for him, and the triad would only have a pool of 8 if it was added to his dice (remember I abstracted this 1 in 3 for successes from pool).
Damage Time: AP of -3 leaves each triad with 1pt of impact armor, so 4 dice pool to resist 12P (remember that panther cannon comparison I mentioned?). With 1 success they each take 11 boxes of physical damage. Game over, triads.
But lets say they made all 4 of their resistance dice to soak some damage and are still on their feet. And Bruce declared Full Offense so he won't be able to defend against any melee attacks until his next action. That's okay, its not the triad's turns yet. Since Bruce hit (whether damage was caused or not) he can declare his Finishing Move. He gets to make an immediate follow-up attack in the same Action Phase (counting as an interrupt and using up his next available action).
Bruce Part II, aka "Finish Them!": No longer Charging and Full Offense already used, Bruce has a 'mere' 20 dice pool attacking both of them again. 10 pool against each gets him 3 successes each. each of the triad members has already defended (-1) and is wounded (-2) leaving them each 4 dice. Again, 2 net successes on the triads. Which means once again they're ending up with 8-12 boxes of physical damage. This time, they're off their feet. For good.
While this was a pretty light example, I think everyone can see other options of how this plays out. If Bruce were to get initiative on a single tough opponent during a run, he could rush in with a 24 dice pool, and follow it up with another attack at 19 pool before the enemy can react effectively. In many cases, this could likely be a one-action knockout from his deadly hands.
Think these numbers of dice seem unreal? Try making the build yourself. Look at all the relevant rules. Then you too can stare in amazement at how this is possible right out of character creation. 8)
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Very interesting thread. I'm toying with the idea of working up a PhysAd just for kicks, at the moment. (Or maybe as a backup character for when my Street Merc gets himself nuked from orbit once my GM realizes he really IS that scary... :o )
The real question, though, wouldn't be how he does vs street thugs, but vs a similar Augmented build.
I'd say that, in the long run, the Adept has the edge in that they can become Initiated, or whatever - but I could also make the argument for Deltaware being similar in effect...your Augmented character also can become more powerful as they gain fame and fortune.
Math aside (and I am a big fan of grinding the numbers) I think it comes down to A) what your preferences are, and B) what are you better at playing?
The obstacle for me has always been...bringing a knife to a gunfight. I see PhysAds as being an extreme expression of style over substance...which is NEVER a bad thing (in game...in RL, even Bruce Lee himself said "Why doesn't somebody take a .45 and...BAM!...finish it?").
-Jn-
Erstwhile Ninja
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Another fun way to play a pure Phys Ad is to go the "So you want to be Bullseye?" route. Instead of making him an up-close combat monster, go for a Power Throw build with Missile Mastery. SUddenly every piece of junk within reach that's heavier than a playing card is a lethal weapon.
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Nitpick: Raise Strength to 5, or (better yet) drop it to 3. Having a Strength of 4 is a waste of points when your primary goal is makin' a melee monster. ;)
On topic: Yeah...but now what? There are lots of ways to sling an awful lot of dice and drop someone in one or two Initiative Passes in Shadowrun. A one-trick pony of an Adept doesn't really prove (or disprove) anything, and the other problem is that he doesn't really do anything you can't get a cybered character to do, almost as well (perhaps while losing a few dice on the main schtick, but being better at everything else in the game). You've made a pretty awesome basket, sure, but you've then put every single egg square into it (including all your Positive Qualities). I hate that adept players feel they have to do that, to make a worthwhile character.
Taking an adept down the unarmed combat demigod route is plenty of fun, but building one should either be a matter of making a character that's awesome anyways and that you have fun with, or purely an experimental exercise in character building. Not a stepping stone to an argument about whether adepts can "stack up" or not (especially when you have to resort to optional rules to make that point).
I think we'd all rather keep outright arguments/debate about that sort of thing elsewhere, and at least try to leave this corner of the forum for folks to share character concepts and sheets, and get some healthy, positive, critique about them. There are other nooks and crannies of the forum we can get into debates about whole character archetypes that are balanced or not. ;)
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There are two problems with this character.
One is that you dump everything else to be good at unarmed combat. This is a one-trick pony, as you mentioned. The problem is that it isn't a particularly good trick. The ability to take down 2 people standing right next to each other within charge range is neat, but you can't do anything else and in a whole lot of situations, you're just screwed.
Incidentally, Kick Attack can't work with Hardliner Gloves.
The second is that this character would be dramatically improved by taking ware. You could if you so desired make a mundane who's just flat-out better at melee and is much less of a one-trick pony. Or you could make an augmented adept who is just as much a one-trick pony, but dramatically better at melee to the point of making this guy look like a joke. Neither is particularly hard to build, although if you don't believe me I'd be happy to outline them for you.
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The problem I noticed. Movement rate is divided by the number of Initiative passes in a combat turn. Mr. Bruce has 3 IPs. So he moves 8.33 meters in an IP. So he would not close distance before being shot.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Mr. Bruce would receive a couple bursts from ceska machine pistols before he could get punchy.
This is just some nitpicking, do the Triads have knives or guns as their readied weapon here? Cause if it's the guns you can assume they took aim and are prepared to fire should he attack them. Mr. Bruce might take a couple bursts before he gets 2 steps.
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It used to be adepts with bioware > street samurai > pure adepts. But the born rich and restricted gear qualities (for street samurai) and the "ways" for adepts (pure adepts) seem to have evened out the playing field a bit.
I'm not sure this build quite warrants the "one-trick pony" label. The character still has a point of Magic left to spend, and probably has enough skill points to get at least one ranged attack. Remember that a high Agility and multiple initiative passes are good things to have for ranged and melee combat. And Agility is used in conjunction with quite a few skills.
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Yes, but (sadly) actually buying your Agility up to your hard-cap is one of the (sadly) worst ways to get that high Agility. It eats up such a tremendous chunk of the 200 BP you can spend on core attributes, and there are so many other cheaper/better ways to do it, that you're still going to end up lagging behind someone who dips into various upgrades to get the same high attribute.
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Yeah, I'm a big fan of soft-maxing, myself. From an Agility of 6, it is easy to either get muscle toner: 4 with the restricted gear quality (for street samurai and bioware-enhanced adepts), or, for a pure adept, spend 0.75 on improved Attribute and 0.25 on boosted Attribute: 1. Although this build hard-maxes Magic, too. Magic is one of the few stats I will even consider hard-maxing, but it isn't really needed for this build, since the listed powers came in at a hair under 5 power points.
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Although this build hard-maxes Magic, too. Magic is one of the few stats I will even consider hard-maxing, but it isn't really needed for this build, since the listed powers came in at a hair under 5 power points.
The powers only came in that cheaply because Magic was hard-capped. They wouldn't have gotten discounts on three powers, with a Magic of 5.
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It used to be adepts with bioware > street samurai > pure adepts. But the born rich and restricted gear qualities (for street samurai) and the "ways" for adepts (pure adepts) seem to have evened out the playing field a bit.
I'm not sure this build quite warrants the "one-trick pony" label. The character still has a point of Magic left to spend, and probably has enough skill points to get at least one ranged attack. Remember that a high Agility and multiple initiative passes are good things to have for ranged and melee combat. And Agility is used in conjunction with quite a few skills.
In order to judge that I would need to see the rest of the sheet, but I doubt he can do anything else well enough to be particularly useful. Let me add it up, actually. 220 points spent on attributes - before buying any Body, Logic, Charisma, or Edge. 35 positive qualities, let's assume he can also get 35 negative. 30 on Elf. He probably can cut as low as about 5 points on gear. He needs at least 34 for 7(9) unarmed. 12 on manuevers. That leaves him 99 points to pick up something he can do that's actually useful - and this is including stuff like Perception, Infiltration, a Body score about 1, Edge, etc. He's not going to be good at anything else, or he's going to have some glaring weakness like having no chance of spotting people sneaking up on him or going down to a papercut.
It would be trivial to make an augmented character who was far less one-trick-pony and also at least a bit better at this guy's trick. If you were willing to go all in one one-trick-pony-ness as this guy does, an augmented adept could more or less just take his build, insert some of the better cyberware, drop some of the overpriced stuff like hardcapping attributes, and be Bruce Lee ++
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It used to be adepts with bioware > street samurai > pure adepts. But the born rich and restricted gear qualities (for street samurai) and the "ways" for adepts (pure adepts) seem to have evened out the playing field a bit.
I'm not sure this build quite warrants the "one-trick pony" label. The character still has a point of Magic left to spend, and probably has enough skill points to get at least one ranged attack. Remember that a high Agility and multiple initiative passes are good things to have for ranged and melee combat. And Agility is used in conjunction with quite a few skills.
In order to judge that I would need to see the rest of the sheet, but I doubt he can do anything else well enough to be particularly useful. Let me add it up, actually. 220 points spent on attributes - before buying any Body, Logic, Charisma, or Edge. 35 positive qualities, let's assume he can also get 35 negative. 30 on Elf. He probably can cut as low as about 5 points on gear. He needs at least 34 for 7(9) unarmed. 12 on manuevers. That leaves him 99 points to pick up something he can do that's actually useful - and this is including stuff like Perception, Infiltration, a Body score about 1, Edge, etc. He's not going to be good at anything else, or he's going to have some glaring weakness like having no chance of spotting people sneaking up on him or going down to a papercut.
It would be trivial to make an augmented character who was far less one-trick-pony and also at least a bit better at this guy's trick. If you were willing to go all in one one-trick-pony-ness as this guy does, an augmented adept could more or less just take his build, insert some of the better cyberware, drop some of the overpriced stuff like hardcapping attributes, and be Bruce Lee ++
I'd like to just agree to disagree with you here. A lot of this character's viability is also dependent on the play-style of the group the player is in, as well as what houserules may be in effect. 99 BP is more than enough to get some decent skills. And really, why the focus on making him a general character? I thought one of the big points of Shadowrun was TEAM play. You have other players there, with other characters, who fill in your character's weaknesses. For example, I recently put together a Street Shaman Combat Mage. He's got maxed out Charisma, and one level of the Influence group, but he's no Face by any means. One of the other players in the group IS however.
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I was responding to someone arguing that this character wasn't going to be a one-trick pony. He is most definitely a one-trick pony. I think that his one trick is of debatable use, but yes, I can see the ability to take out two people within charge range standing next to one another being possibly worthwhile in games run a certain way.
The point that he'd be better off not being a pure adept stands though, whether you want to be better at the one trick or have more that you can do.
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Actually, in the long run augmentation hinders an adept more than it helps. Sure, you can initiate and buy up you magic, but it gets increasingly karma intensive, for diminishing returns as opposed to a pure adept who went without the augmentation. One thing to remember about augmentation is that usually there's gear that you don't have to integrate into your body that has the exact same function as most cyberware. And in order to get the best out of bioware, you need to have an obscene amount of money and access to a Deltagrade lab (or take the Type O quality, which usually comes with its own set of problems *coughTamanouscough*) and even then there are adept powers that get you the same abilities.
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On topic: Yeah...but now what? There are lots of ways to sling an awful lot of dice and drop someone in one or two Initiative Passes in Shadowrun. A one-trick pony of an Adept doesn't really prove (or disprove) anything, and the other problem is that he doesn't really do anything you can't get a cybered character to do, almost as well (perhaps while losing a few dice on the main schtick, but being better at everything else in the game). You've made a pretty awesome basket, sure, but you've then put every single egg square into it (including all your Positive Qualities). I hate that adept players feel they have to do that, to make a worthwhile character.
This wasn't about a character than can do anything. With the name like Bruce lee thrown in the title, I figured everyone would assume it was a concept purely about unarmed melee (unless someone was really thinking about Bruce Lee the actor). And if every character were stacked up the idea that what they can do someone else can do 'almost as well', then whats the point of listing any concept? And as far as losing dice for someone to do the same, less dice could still result in success. But it won't be a success on the same scale One person shooting a target ten times is not the same as someone who can shoot a target once, and send the next nine shots through the same hole.
Taking an adept down the unarmed combat demigod route is plenty of fun, but building one should either be a matter of making a character that's awesome anyways and that you have fun with, or purely an experimental exercise in character building.
So you believe a character can't be designed that does both?
Not a stepping stone to an argument about whether adepts can "stack up" or not (especially when you have to resort to optional rules to make that point).
If the character can't stack up, can't be just as useful or moreso than another, then why play it? And what optional rules? Nothing used in Bruce had any optional header in front of it.
I think we'd all rather keep outright arguments/debate about that sort of thing elsewhere, and at least try to leave this corner of the forum for folks to share character concepts and sheets, and get some healthy, positive, critique about them. There are other nooks and crannies of the forum we can get into debates about whole character archetypes that are balanced or not. ;)
This is part of a character someone is playing in a local game. And I was fishing for critiques on it (positive or otherwise). And it looked like you were the one person that was making an outright argument over its viability (let alone the ability for someone to enjoy playing it, which the person is). ::)
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There are two problems with this character.
One is that you dump everything else to be good at unarmed combat. This is a one-trick pony, as you mentioned. The problem is that it isn't a particularly good trick. The ability to take down 2 people standing right next to each other within charge range is neat, but you can't do anything else and in a whole lot of situations, you're just screwed.
As someone else mentioned, shadowrunners aren't one-man armies. If the team has a face, a firearms expert, hacker, etc then this character's role is quite defined what part he plays. I admit it was a pretty basic example, but I figured for those curious they might design a test more to their liking to see how the character would fare.
Incidentally, Kick Attack can't work with Hardliner Gloves.
And it didn't. The kick attack was simply listed to fill up the other maneuver spot. I considered describing the scene with Bruce kicking the two opponents (and then not bothering to list the gear examples at all), but the image of Bruce wearing his articulated fighting gloves was in my head and I left the fight as is.
The second is that this character would be dramatically improved by taking ware. You could if you so desired make a mundane who's just flat-out better at melee and is much less of a one-trick pony. Or you could make an augmented adept who is just as much a one-trick pony, but dramatically better at melee to the point of making this guy look like a joke. Neither is particularly hard to build, although if you don't believe me I'd be happy to outline them for you.
Actually, I'd love to see that outline (in whichever thread location is appropriate). As a GM, I've looked at concept after concept ever since I picked up my old first ed hardback, and I'm having a hard time picturing a melee combatant that could dish out an attack with the level of damage this adept appears to be able to do.
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Swampfox, could you point me to the gear that gives you +4 AGI above your natural threshold that isn't cyber/bio ware? Replicating that with Adept powers is 6 MP or 4.5 MP with a way. Initiative passes are similar, providing you don't want a drug addiction (which will threaten your essence in and of itself).
Agi + 3 or Rea + 2 and 2 IPs both fit into one point of essence (or one power point in other words), without even monkeying around with a better grade of implant. And both of those would cost more than one power point. That's a big difference in the short to medium term. And I can't see the gear that replicates that sort of thing.
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The problem I noticed. Movement rate is divided by the number of Initiative passes in a combat turn. Mr. Bruce has 3 IPs. So he moves 8.33 meters in an IP. So he would not close distance before being shot.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Mr. Bruce would receive a couple bursts from ceska machine pistols before he could get punchy.
That was an error on my part. I didn't mean to list the (15m) after mentioning the triads were standing at medium range (which is 6-15m for their guns). I meant to word that as them being 'within' their medium range to make the example fight work. In my mind I pictured them a step or two away from a position where their odds of shooting accurate were better (i.e short range). I just didn't convey that to the reader (really my bad).
This is just some nitpicking, do the Triads have knives or guns as their readied weapon here? Cause if it's the guns you can assume they took aim and are prepared to fire should he attack them. Mr. Bruce might take a couple bursts before he gets 2 steps.
This is again my being vague and not setting the scene with more detail. I pictured the scene through a Hollywood cinematic lens. Triad member one has a knife slip into his hand from up his sleeve while number two pulls the sword from under his coat. As Bruce looks side to side for an escape to avoid the confrontation, the one with the knife says "Don't try to run, omae" and opens his coat to reveal his firearm. Bruce decides he wants to avoid the gunfire (and the authorities it will likely bring) and figures the thugs are confident enough to believe they can take him, so he turns to offer them the fight they obviously want.
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Nitpick: Raise Strength to 5, or (better yet) drop it to 3. Having a Strength of 4 is a waste of points when your primary goal is makin' a melee monster. ;)
Doh! I missed this part. I was under the impression you always round down. Did I miss a sentence on rounding somewhere?
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Something has been bugging me about these character threads and I finally figured it out: when did roleplaying become about dice pools? A good GM will adjust the opposition level so that player doesn't get killed for simply being unable to throw 20+ dice at something. A GM can't play a good character for you. The character should be character first. If it isn't, it's glorified math.
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Swampfox, could you point me to the gear that gives you +4 AGI above your natural threshold that isn't cyber/bio ware? Replicating that with Adept powers is 6 MP or 4.5 MP with a way. Initiative passes are similar, providing you don't want a drug addiction (which will threaten your essence in and of itself).
Agi + 3 or Rea + 2 and 2 IPs both fit into one point of essence (or one power point in other words), without even monkeying around with a better grade of implant. And both of those would cost more than one power point. That's a big difference in the short to medium term. And I can't see the gear that replicates that sort of thing.
The Big Peat, please note that I did say "usually" in my post. I am fully aware that there are some pieces of ware that, if you're playing a short-term or one-shot character, are good ideas to get.
And Cass, I know what you mean. For things like Influence and social interactions, the group I'm in is much more likely to roleplay them out. About the only time the dice get involved are when they're being used to determine whether or not a lie is being bought, or how much more nuyen our face can wrangle for us out of a deal.
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The second is that this character would be dramatically improved by taking ware. You could if you so desired make a mundane who's just flat-out better at melee and is much less of a one-trick pony. Or you could make an augmented adept who is just as much a one-trick pony, but dramatically better at melee to the point of making this guy look like a joke. Neither is particularly hard to build, although if you don't believe me I'd be happy to outline them for you.
Actually, I'd love to see that outline (in whichever thread location is appropriate). As a GM, I've looked at concept after concept ever since I picked up my old first ed hardback, and I'm having a hard time picturing a melee combatant that could dish out an attack with the level of damage this adept appears to be able to do.
Sure. Before I do, would you mind filling in the rest of this guy's stats? It's helpful to compare the full package "side by side," as it were, in discussions like this. It also helps to keep things focused; otherwise it will be easy to get sidetracked with things that would help or hurt either character.
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Nitpick: Raise Strength to 5, or (better yet) drop it to 3. Having a Strength of 4 is a waste of points when your primary goal is makin' a melee monster. ;)
Doh! I missed this part. I was under the impression you always round down. Did I miss a sentence on rounding somewhere?
SR4A 159 "Melee Damage."
You do round down by default but SR is a game system of general rules with lots of fiddly little exceptions.
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Taking an adept down the unarmed combat demigod route is plenty of fun, but building one should either be a matter of making a character that's awesome anyways and that you have fun with, or purely an experimental exercise in character building.
So you believe a character can't be designed that does both?
Taken out of context, rather than including the next sentence, sure, it looks like I believe that. But my point was that this area is for character creation and critique, not for starting in-depth arguments about whether adepts are worthwhile characters or not. See the end of this post for more on that.
If the character can't stack up, can't be just as useful or moreso than another, then why play it?
And yet you're getting defensive when people try to say things about whether or not this particular character can stack up, how useful this character is (compared to others), etc, etc. ;)
And what optional rules? Nothing used in Bruce had any optional header in front of it.
The Adept's Way is clearly (albeit unfortunately, in my opinion) stated as being entirely optional rules. Ways and their benefits are fully optional and require GM approval.
This is part of a character someone is playing in a local game. And I was fishing for critiques on it (positive or otherwise). And it looked like you were the one person that was making an outright argument over its viability (let alone the ability for someone to enjoy playing it, which the person is). ::)
You began the thread with "A fair number of people seem to have the view that physical adepts don't quite stack up to augmented characters at character creation." That's not how someone starts a thread fishing for critiques on just a single character, that's how someone starts a thread fishing for critiques about adepts at all. Which was the point of most of my post -- I'd prefer folks didn't start in-depth philosophical debates about the viability of entire archetypes here, but rather conversations about specific characters.
"A fair number of people seem to have the view that physical adepts don't quite stack up to augmented characters at character creation" is the way to do the former, not the latter. The bulk of what I'm saying is "Man, I wish this guy hadn't opened the can of worms here."
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There is a thread below about Adepts vs. Augmented. Not that big a difference.
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Something has been bugging me about these character threads and I finally figured it out: when did roleplaying become about dice pools? A good GM will adjust the opposition level so that player doesn't get killed for simply being unable to throw 20+ dice at something. A GM can't play a good character for you. The character should be character first. If it isn't, it's glorified math.
I know we're off topic, but my guess would be around the time where building the character block by block instead of rolling dice to determine stats became the norm. With great customization came great number crunching.
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The other problem is that if you're not careful, it's easy to have people show up with characters that have disparate power levels without really trying. It helps to have a clear understanding of how the game balance works so that as a GM or player you can avoid that.
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Sure. Before I do, would you mind filling in the rest of this guy's stats? It's helpful to compare the full package "side by side," as it were, in discussions like this. It also helps to keep things focused; otherwise it will be easy to get sidetracked with things that would help or hurt either character.
I'll have to get a hold of the player to see how the character was finished out first. Off the top of my head I simply remember some of the backstory elements. Though I suppose I could fake it and fill in what sounds right based on the background.
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The other problem is that if you're not careful, it's easy to have people show up with characters that have disparate power levels without really trying. It helps to have a clear understanding of how the game balance works so that as a GM or player you can avoid that.
Something I should point out then. This was for a gaming group that's been playing on and off since the beginning of the game. They've retired characters and concepts over the years and shortly after the release of 4th decided they would do so again and take a break as new source material was released. That said, when they decided to start back up recently, they didn't want to make characters that felt like they were just beginning their running career. But they also didn't want to use extra BP or any other advancing options.
So the general idea here was that each player would specialize in a field that was important overall to the group and would try to excel (in that one field) out of the box. Its definitely not a concept for everyone as you say, and I should have included mentioning that at the beginning.
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Taken out of context, rather than including the next sentence, sure, it looks like I believe that. But my point was that this area is for character creation and critique, not for starting in-depth arguments about whether adepts are worthwhile characters or not. See the end of this post for more on that.
But, this did involve character creation. It wasn't merely a test concept sitting in a notebook, which was why I took the opportunity to post (most) of it.
And yet you're getting defensive when people try to say things about whether or not this particular character can stack up, how useful this character is (compared to others), etc, etc. ;)
Ahem, who doesn't attempt to defend any points brought up to scrutiny in a project they've had a hand in developing? ;)
The Adept's Way is clearly (albeit unfortunately, in my opinion) stated as being entirely optional rules. Ways and their benefits are fully optional and require GM approval.
After going back through The Way of the Adept I was going to argue this as the words optional rules don't appear anywhere in the product itself. But now I see that optional title in the sell sheet. The group in question with the player of this character has one overriding house rule- no optional rules. My fault really for simply diving into the product, and I'll have to remember to watch before I buy if somethings not really canon. Although without warrior's way there is very little that will change regarding the effectiveness of the character.
You began the thread with "A fair number of people seem to have the view that physical adepts don't quite stack up to augmented characters at character creation." That's not how someone starts a thread fishing for critiques on just a single character, that's how someone starts a thread fishing for critiques about adepts at all. Which was the point of most of my post -- I'd prefer folks didn't start in-depth philosophical debates about the viability of entire archetypes here, but rather conversations about specific characters.
The responses live up to the impression I had that it was going to turn into a adepts vs augments no matter what I said. I could go back and edit the original post to try and restore focus to just the character itself, but I think it would be for moot.
"A fair number of people seem to have the view that physical adepts don't quite stack up to augmented characters at character creation" is the way to do the former, not the latter. The bulk of what I'm saying is "Man, I wish this guy hadn't opened the can of worms here."
Worms can be packed with protein. But that aside I've always been under the impression that a character concept will always come under fire when placed out in the open. I'd also like to point out that I looked at the Combat Medic in this forum section and saw the debate of augmented vs unaugmented vs magic in it. Then I saw the 'Do adepts have advantages that augmented do not.' It didn't really look like my can was out of place based on the other things on the shelf :o
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The other problem is that if you're not careful, it's easy to have people show up with characters that have disparate power levels without really trying. It helps to have a clear understanding of how the game balance works so that as a GM or player you can avoid that.
The trouble with balancing power levels is that it is hard to quantify versatility versus raw power. One guy might be rolling 6 more dice in combat, but the other character might have several useful contacts, be the backup wheelman, be good at sneaking around and ambushing people, and be a natural leader. You are better off making sure that all of the players can bring something useful to the group, and that the characters will work well together, than enforcing some Harrison Bergeron-style gimpage on optimized characters.
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+1 for the Harrison Bergeron reference.
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Yes, but you can still have actual problems, like one guy putting all his eggs in the 'good at melee combat' basket, but still being less good at melee combat than someone else who can also do other stuff.
I generally prefer to try to help people improve subpar characters than limit better characters, though.
Eh, if you don't have the entire sheet, I'll just outline the basic idea of how you would make an augmented melee character, and we can just have a gentleman's agreement not to get hung up on stuff like "but 1 power point of other nifty things is worth more than 12 BPs of other nifty things."
Augmented route (Path A)
Name: Smacky Chan
Race: Troll (40 points)
Base stats: Agility 1, Reaction 5, Strength 5, Intuition 4 (70 points). Note he gets 5 base body to Bruce's 1, though.
Bioware: Genetic Optimization: Agility (45000), Reflex Recorder (Unarmed) (10000)
Cyberware: [note: restricted gear used to get an Availability 18 cyberleg] Obvious Cyberleg (15000), Customize for +3 agility, +7 strength (15000), Optimization: Nightingale Feet of Fury (5000). Enhancements: +3 body, +3 agility, +3 strength, +2 armor, foot anchor (16 capacity of 18 used, 6700), Wired Reflexes 2 (32000), Reaction Enhancers 2 (20000)
total spent: 148700 nuyen (a bit under 30 bp of cash)
Qualities: Restricted Gear (Cyberleg), Aptitude (Unarmed Combat), Karate I, Muay Thai I, Tae Kwon Do II (35 points)
Martial Arts Abilities Chosen: +3 DV with Unarmed Combat, +1 die on Charging attacks.
Skills: Unarmed Combat (Cyber-Implant Weapons Specialization) 7(9) (34 points)
Manuevers: Finishing Move, Full Offense, Kick Attack, Multi-Strike (12 points)
Smacky has spent 221 points on this. He has significantly more points left over than Bruce, although he doesn't really have anything left to spend them on that would make him much better at unarmed combat because he's pretty much capped out. If he really doesn't care about anything else he could spend them getting better defenses (stuff like Trauma Dampener, very high Body, etc).
In the same situation as Bruce: note that Smacky (as a troll) has higher movement rate, although in this case it doesn't matter. Smacky also has 13 rather than 10 initiative, though in this case again either of them can go first. Smacky does the same charging attack trick, but he's using a Kick Attack with his Foot Anchor. Hiya!
Comparing die pools:
Smacky has the same skill/specialization, but doesn't have Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat): -3 for Smacky.
Smacky is a troll making a Kick Attack, so he has Reach 2. Bruce was not making a kick attack in order to use his Hardliner Gloves, so Smacky has 2 extra dice here (he's putting them in offense). +2 for Smacky.
Smacky has a 9 agility on the cyberleg he's using to attack, compared to Bruce's 7: +2 for Smacky.
Smacky has a Reflex Recorder: Unarmed Combat: +2 for Smacky.
Incidentally, Bruce should have Personalized Grip on his Hardliner Gloves for an extra +1 to hit. -1 for Smacky.
Smacky gets +1 from kicking with Nightingale Feet of Fury +1 for Smacky.
Adding it up, Smacky has 3 extra dice on Bruce.
Comparing damage:
Smacky's leg has a Strength of 13, for a base DV of 7. Smacky is using a Foot Anchor, which does +3 more DV on top of that for 10. Smacky also has +3 from Martial Arts, giving him a base DV of 13. Bruce has a base DV of 10 with AP -3, so Smacky is just as good at breaking past armor and will do more damage (2 more points, on average, assuming the 3 armor negated by Bruce's AP would have been 1 more hit).
So, while Bruce can kill the ganger's dead, Smacky can kill them somewhat deader. Smacky is also significantly tougher, with 2 more dice to dodge, at least as much body/worn armor (he could easily have higher Body and also more defensive cyberware), dermal deposits, etc.
Do note though that Smacky has a lower dice pool maximum than Bruce. When he's splitting attacks like against these gangers he doesn't care and it is an optional rule, however, if that bothers you, check out the character just below who does not have this problem. Smacky is mostly meant to show how much cheaper it is to be good at melee as an Augmented than as an Adept.
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Route B for a mundane Augmented character.
Name: Buck Norris.
Race: Elf (30)
Base stats: Agility 8, Reaction 5, Intuition 5, Strength 5 (195 points) [note: Agility is 8/8, not 7/7, because of Genetic Optimization]
Qualities: Restricted Gear x2, Tae Kwon Do II, Muay Thai II (30 points)
Martial Arts Abilities: +3 DV with Unarmed Combat, +1 die when Charging
Cyberware: Wired Reflexes 2 (32000), Foot Anchor (4000)
Bioware: Reflex Recorder (Unarmed) (10000), Muscle Toner 4 (32000), Muscle Augmentation 4 (28000), Genetic Optimization (Agility) (45000)
Spent 151000 nuyen (a bit over 30 bp)
Skills: Unarmed 6 (Martial Arts specialization) (26 bp)
Manuevers: Finishing Move, Full Offense, Kick Attack, Multi-Strike. (12 BP)
His name is Buck, and he likes to ... PARTY! He has spent 323 BP, a decent chunk less than Bruce.
Comparison:
Dice Pools: Buck lacks Improved Ability Unarmed Combat (-3 dice to Buck)
Buck has an Augmented Agility of 12 to Bruce's 7 (+5 dice to Buck)
Buck has +1 reach (using Kick Attack rather than Hardliner gloves) (+1 die to Buck)
Buck is not using Personalized Grip Hardliner Gloves (-1 die to Buck)
Buck has Reflex Recorder (Unarmed Combat) (+1 die to Buck)
Buck has 1 less point of Unarmed Combat (-1 die to Buck)
Net, Buck has +2 dice on Bruce.
Comparing DV: Buck has an augmented Strength of 9 (5 base DV), Bone Density Augmentation (+3 DV), and +3 from Martial Arts (+3 DV) for a total of 11 DV. He doesn't have any AP, though, so he averages only the same damage as Bruce (+DV ~ 3 AP), but has 2 extra dice to hit.
Buck also has higher Initiative, and with a higher Agility score he's better at Agility skills (like Infiltration, or using any other weapons). He also spent less points than Bruce to be marginally better.
Compared to Smacky, Buck is a bit more "Bruce-like" in that he's the same metatype and (like Bruce) has a high actual agility, making him good at other skills. He doesn't have as many extra BP left to buy other stuff as Smacky but if you really just want to kung fu fight people you don't care. Unlike Smacky, he doesn't have any issues if the Dice Pool Cap rule is in effect because he has a cap of 28, like Bruce.
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Finally, the Augmentation/Awakened Hybrid. I'm going to try to keep him as close to Bruce as possible in stuff like the dice pool cap.
Name: Bruise Lee
Race: Elf (30 points)
Base Ability Scores: Agility 8, Reaction 5, Strength 5, Intuition 3, Magic 6 (reduced to 3 by augmentation) (240 bp) [note: Agility is 8/8 rather than 7/7 because of Genetic Optimization]
Qualities: Restricted Gear, Adept, Tae Kwon Do I, Muay Thai II, Warrior's Way (35 bp)
Martial Arts Abilities: +3 DV with Unarmed Combat,
Skills: Unarmed 6 (Martial Arts Specialization) (26 bp)
Manuevers: Finishing Move, Full Offense, Kick Attack, Multi-Strike. (12 BP)
Cyberware: Aluminum Bone Lacing (15000)
Bioware: Muscle Toner 4 (32000), Muscle Augmentation 2 (14000), Reflex Recorder (Unarmed) (10000), Genetic Optimization (Agility) (45000)
Spent 116000 (a bit over 23 BP)
Note: 1.9 essence lost, reducing Magic from 6 to 4.
Powers: Improved Reflexes 2*, Critical Strike 4, Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat) 3*
Bruise has spent 336 bp, exactly the same as Bruce (assuming they both have the same amount of negative qualities).
Comparing Dice Pools, Bruise again using Kick Attack rather than Hardliner Gloves because I don't know if Hardliner Gloves stack with Aluminum Bone Lacing. If they do he should.
Bruce should have +1 die from using Personalized Grip Hardliner Gloves (-1 Bruise)
Bruise has an augmented Agility of 12 to Bruce's 7 (+5 Bruise)
Bruise has 1 less point of Unarmed Combat (-1 Bruise)
Bruise has 1 more point of Reach (because of using Kick Attacks rather than Hardliner Gloves) (+1 Bruise)
Bruise has 1 less dice when charging (he doesn't have that TKD ability). I'm counting this as -1 for Bruise even though it is situational.
Adding it up, Bruise has 3 more dice.
Comparing DV, Bruise has an augmented Strength of 7 (4 base), Aluminum Bone Lacing (+2), Martial Arts (+3), and Critical Strike (+4), giving him a base DV of 13, and he has no AP. This is +3 DV (but 3 less AP) than Bruce. Overall Bruise has 3 more dice to hit, penetrates as much armor, and does 2 more points per hit than Bruce.
As a side note, Bruise also gets better faster than Bruce. They both have to Initiate to gain more magic, but Bruise's next point of magic costs only 25 rather than 35 points. Similarly, Bruise can later improve himself with cyberware upgrades (such as by upgrading to Alphaware Titanium Bone Lacing), whereas Bruce can't really get much better with nuyen even if he wants.
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Just a few quick asides (so I don't get tangled up in more arguing or whatever, 'cause I'm really just not in the mood for it). I seem to somehow be coming off as a guy that doesn't like adepts or thinks they're bad characters or something, which is -- quite literally -- as far from the truth as possible. So instead of nitpicking at the character as he was posted, I'll offer up a few suggestions.
I'd look into Counterstrike, even if just a single level of it. For a guy that's got a ton of Unarmed dice, it's hard to go wrong with for just .5 power points, since it's a great way to punish anyone who foolishly takes a swing at you. If you're gonna be successfully parrying anyways, and have power point to spare, it's a fun way to get some really ludicrous die pools and stay focused on an unarmed master.
I'd also be sure to keep Critical Strike maxed out (it's much more efficient to increase damage than Penetrating Strike), and I'd take a peek at Combat Sense for any combat oriented adept, but especially one who only shines in close combat (because surviving to get in close is much more than half the battle).
And...why no Killing Hands? If you're gonna be an Unarmed adept specialist, you might as well be able to tackle spirits, too, and occasionally deal lethal damage. Elemental Strike can grow from there (replacing Penetrating Strike in practically any build), depending on how flashy you want to get, too.
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I'm pretty meh on Countestrike and Combat Sense, honestly. Countestrike is pricy (it's .5 per, not .25 per; at .25 per, I'd say sure, grab one level of it) and only helps against other melee people - but often you want to be closing in with non-melee opponents and targeting them first. The more good you are at melee, the less of a threat other melee opponents are to you. Combat Sense is mostly just overpriced, it's useful, but just costs too much for what it does. Once you have enough Magic to get a Way discount on Combat Sense, though, you might as well, because highly focused pure Adepts like this guy quickly run dry on good powers and have to start settling for meh and overpriced ones.
While we're offering more general suggestions, Elemental Strike (Sonic) and Elemental Strike (Blast) are nifty - not core abilities, but they allow for some quite good tricks. They do take a simple action to turn on which relegates them to fights you know are coming, but Elemental Strike (Sonic) basically translates to "anyone you hit is out of the fight" and Elemental Strike (Blast) lets you shout BEEP BEEP I'M A JEEP and punch tanks in half, which is always funny. You can pick a different element if you like, but I prefer ones that you can't get special armor enhancements against like you can with fire and suchlike.
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Yeah, typo, sorry. I'm half-assedly posting while half-assedly working on a paper while half-assedly packing for Gencon. Since that's 1.5 asses I'm supposed to be using and I've only got 1.0, I'm slipping up in a few places. ;)
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A quick note: the errata caps the maximum cumulative DV bonus that you can get from martial arts at +3.
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Huh, never noticed that (we don't normally play with Martial Arts). You can most easily fix that by taking +dice with Called Shot for Damage once or twice, and then making called shots for -1 die/+1 DV or -2 dice/+2 DV (so they cancel with your bonuses) all the time.
Then again, you might want free actions for other stuff. Let me take a quick look at changing the characters.
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Fixed Smacky and Bruise; Smacky dropped a Martial Art DV to pick up Restricted Gear for a better cyberleg that gives him +1 DV and +1 die (2 more BP, but he had plenty left over), Bruise dropped a martial arts DV and the charge bonus, grabbed a way, dropped the inefficient Penetrating Strike, and grabbed +3 to hit from Improved Ability. Wound up being a trade of +1 DV and -3 AP for +2 to hit, not that great a trade but still better than Bruce.
Buck, honestly, I could do better. I'm going to redo him somewhat to work better with that in mind.
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Fixed Buck. He wound up only marginally better than Bruce at melee, although he's cheaper and got some side benefits for it.
I think the end result is that Augmented melee is marginally better than Awakened melee, but cheaper and gets you more side benefits. Awakened/Augmented hybrid melee gets you flat-out better for the same price and similarly gets you side benefits.
You could probably make a character generally similar to Buck who is an Ork or Troll and has the same dice to hit as Bruce, but does noticeably more DV. Buck actually runs into the problem of having everything that he could possibly get to punch harder.
Troll (40 bp)
Stats: Strength 11, Agility 5, Reaction 3, Intuition 3. Note strength is 11/11 and Agility is 5/6 due to Genetic Optimizations. 155 bp.
Qualities: Restricted Gear x2, TKD II, Muay Thai II
MA abilities: +3 Unarmed Combat DV, +1 with charge
Cyber: Wired II, Reaction Enhancers, Foot Anchor (4 essence, 56000)
Bio: Reflex Recorder (Unarmed), Genetic Optimization (Agility), Genetic Optimization (Strength), Muscle Toner 4, Muscle Augmentation 4 (160000, 2.1 essence, halved to 1.05 so he still has a soul).
216000 spent, a bit over 43 bp.
Skills: The usual Unarmed 6 with MA spec (26)
Manuevers: Same as everyone else (12)
Okay, 268. He ends up mostly the same as bruce in stuff like Initiative and whatnot, higher base movement, and he spent a decent amount of points less. But how is he at kicking people's heads off? That's what we're here for.
With a modified 9 agility, he's 2 up on Bruce. Troll reach is another 1 up. Kick reach is another 1 up. He has 1 less skill, and no Improved Ability (Unarmed), so he breaks even on dice rolled.
What about DV? He has an augmented strength of 15 (!) so that's 8 base DV. +3 for the foot anchor (the, incidentally, COMPLETELY LEGAL foot anchor, despite it being just as deadly as a cyberspur), +3 for martial arts, and he's kicking people's heads off with 14 DV, compared to Bruce's 10 DV with -3 AP. So same dice, but on average 3 more damage boxes, all for less points and with side benefits like faster movement and being tougher.
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Alrighty, my friend sent me the original character sheet that had been finished just before The Way of the Adept was released. The equipment could probably be a bit more organized in the document, but its good enough. In the augmented examples, I liked #2 and 3 as mainly they kept the metatype as is (I meant to say if you had some augmented alternate suggestions to keep them 'familiar' appearing outwardly, which you did with two).
Alas, I tried the suggestions of some of those other adept powers, but the player the character was going to felt they weren't to his style of play.
Here's what we had in the beginning. I follow up the stat sheet with a basic (from my memory) of what the concept & history is. It should help to bring the overall character concept into greater cohesion.
B A R S C I L W Edg Mag Ess Init IP
3 7 5(7) 3 3 3 2 2 2 6 6 10 3
Metatype: Elf
Positive Qualities: Adept, Aptitude, Martial Arts 3
Negative Qualities: Addiction (nicotine, moderate), Amnesia 1, Day Job 1, Enemy (Connection 9/Incidence 1: group, 99 members, district influence, most magical)
Skills: Artisan 3, Computer 2, Etiquette 3, Gymnastics 2, Infiltration 3, Unarmed Combat 7 (+2sp)
Knowledge Skills: Eastern Philosophy 3, Local Club Hotspots 4, Music Theory 4, Popular Trends 3
Languages: English (n), Sperethiel 1
Adept Powers: Critical Strike 6, Improved Ability 3, Improved Reflexes 2, Penetrating Strike 2
Tae Kwon Do Advantages: +1 die Charging, +1 DV Unarmed Combat, +1 die attacking multiples
Maneuvers: Finishing Move, Full Offense, Kick Attack, Multi-Strike, Vicious Blow, Watchful Guard
Gear: Avalon Commlink w/Navi OS (Armor Case 6, Biometric Lock, Customized Interface, Optimized Edit), Edit 4, Browse 4, AR Gloves, Hot Sim Module, Subvocal Mic, 3x Nanopaste Trodes, Rating 4 Noise Analysis Software, 2x Fake SIN 3 (both w/Travel Pass 3), 10x Rating 4 Datasofts (Musicsofts), Hypersonic Sound Beam, Cool Shades 4 (flare comp, image link, thermo, vision enhance 3), Earbuds 2 (audio enhance 3, sound filter 3), Voice Mask, Respirator 6, Micro Sensor /Directional Mic, Skinweb Array, Body Shop (500, 100/month), Hardliner Gloves
Armor: Steampunk vest/slacks/shirt w/Softweave, Form-Fitting Full-Body, SecureTech forearm/limbs/shins/vitals
Nuyen: 3d6+3x50
Lifestyle: 2 months prepaid Low (comforts 2, entertainment 3, necessities 3, neighborhood 2, security 3, crash pad, network bottleneck, trigger-happy landlord) 2,000/month
Contacts: Club Promoter (Corp Manager) 3/1, Fixer 3/1, Master Kim (Antiquities & Oddities Dealer) 2/6
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There's no reason why he should change to augmentated either. Yes, it would make him a little more powerful, but he's still pretty powerful already.
What he isn't though is tough.
In fact, I'd go so far as to state that for a guy who plans to make his living out of running up to people and punching them in the face, he's downright flimsy. One good hit would really ruin his day...
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I'm pretty meh on Countestrike and Combat Sense, honestly. Countestrike is pricy (it's .5 per, not .25 per; at .25 per, I'd say sure, grab one level of it) and only helps against other melee people - but often you want to be closing in with non-melee opponents and targeting them first. The more good you are at melee, the less of a threat other melee opponents are to you. Combat Sense is mostly just overpriced, it's useful, but just costs too much for what it does. Once you have enough Magic to get a Way discount on Combat Sense, though, you might as well, because highly focused pure Adepts like this guy quickly run dry on good powers and have to start settling for meh and overpriced ones.
While we're offering more general suggestions, Elemental Strike (Sonic) and Elemental Strike (Blast) are nifty - not core abilities, but they allow for some quite good tricks. They do take a simple action to turn on which relegates them to fights you know are coming, but Elemental Strike (Sonic) basically translates to "anyone you hit is out of the fight" and Elemental Strike (Blast) lets you shout BEEP BEEP I'M A JEEP and punch tanks in half, which is always funny. You can pick a different element if you like, but I prefer ones that you can't get special armor enhancements against like you can with fire and suchlike.
I'm never meh on combat sense. But I think it is something you should not get a die or 2. My first SR4 character was a troll boxer(augmented with bioware) and 5 points in combat sense was awesome. Rolling 12 dice while taking actions other than dodging to avoid getting shot is pretty huge, there is a large range of damage you flat out avoid at that level. 1 or 2 points though and you are probably getting hit by random guard number 5 when you try to close to melee. Sure prime runners or red samurai will still be hitting you, and once people figure out how hard you are to hit wide bursts will make you an easier target, but avoiding that short or long narrow burst from the average security guy is a nice feeling.
Counter strike is great at 1 point especially paired with combat sense, not good past that. The extra dice to hit are great even if they don't come up all the time.
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Honestly, if I was building a pure adept, Combat Sense and Counterstrike 1 are probably things I'd have, because they aren't useless, just overly expensive. But I've never been able to build a pure adept that wouldn't immediately improve with ware, and so you wind up cutting down to the handful of useful and reasonably priced adept powers so you can stack them with the useful and not overly priced augmentations.
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That actually reminds me of one of the things I hate about adept powers. The breaking down of them into .25 bits. Don't get me wrong some are also clearly overpriced even without that, improved attribute could have been .5 a level with no increase for going over racial limits and it still would be debatable on whether or not you should get bioware for attributes. I think combat sense is fine at .5 a level in that it would be way too cheap at .25 a level, I wouldn't have a adept alive without 6 ranks+ in it if it was .25 a level. But it might be closer to a .4 a level power, IMO.
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Yeah, I think that's one of the problems. You also get stuff like Penetrating Strike, which is just blatantly worse than Critical Strike (but can't be cheaper because of the .25 minimum).
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I never take penetrating strike because it is such a bad deal in comparison. A lot of powers cost too much this one is an obvious good example since as you said critical strike is just clearly better. What also gets me are the fun powers that seem to have a fun tax because they are not worth what they cost. Wall running, gliding, traceless walk. They are all so situational and not that great in those situations that they are barely worth .5PP much less a full PP. They are fun and cool so it is like they cost more just because of that.
This topic hits home for me because I think adepts and mages should not be motivated mechanically to pick up ware. At most there could be reasons to for character concepts to take ware and the character wouldn't really be penalized more they he benefited. Kind of like it was a balanced choice. When the mechanics motivate you to go counter to the setting things are a bit screwy IMO. The setting claims that they want to take as little ware as possible heck ideally no ware, but sometimes there are certain pieces so important to the job/role they have they will take a small hit to their magic. It isn't supposed to be this ware is just so much better than my magic I'm gonna load up on ware.
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The other big problem is that someone seemed to have gone through the adept powers and added in "Gotchas!" even when they weren't needed. Melanin Control is the one I love to QQ about as the perfect example: it lets you change... your skin color ... BUT you can't change it outside the limits of your ethnicity, because it would be REALLY BROKEN if for .5 pp a white guy could disguise himself as a black guy. It's especially insulting because it wouldn't be a particularly good power anyways.
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The other big problem is that someone seemed to have gone through the adept powers and added in "Gotchas!" even when they weren't needed. Melanin Control is the one I love to QQ about as the perfect example: it lets you change... your skin color ... BUT you can't change it outside the limits of your ethnicity, because it would be REALLY BROKEN if for .5 pp a white guy could disguise himself as a black guy. It's especially insulting because it wouldn't be a particularly good power anyways.
I am TAN MAN!
Fear my bronzed fury!
Lamest. Superpower. Ever.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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The other big problem is that someone seemed to have gone through the adept powers and added in "Gotchas!" even when they weren't needed. Melanin Control is the one I love to QQ about as the perfect example: it lets you change... your skin color ... BUT you can't change it outside the limits of your ethnicity, because it would be REALLY BROKEN if for .5 pp a white guy could disguise himself as a black guy. It's especially insulting because it wouldn't be a particularly good power anyways.
I am TAN MAN!
Fear my bronzed fury!
Lamest. Superpower. Ever.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
I get the feeling that melanin control has that gotcha in it to restrict normal fleshtone characters to normal fleshtones, while my silver skinned SURGE character would be restricted to silvery metal tones.
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The way the section reads, is that it puts a limit based on five skins tones that you can only go up or down one "notch" in the list.
Skin tone goes from albino to caucasian to tan to brown to black. So, if you were normally tan, you could go from caucasian to brown but not albino nor black. The others are beyond the limit of your body to produce. (And caucasian in this regard would be fair skin like Irish gingers or Norwegian stock.)
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(And caucasian in this regard would be fair skin like Irish gingers or Norwegian stock.)
Or IT guy....