Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: kirk on <08-23-11/2029:14>
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Not so long ago I saw advice for a non CQ player to take unarmed combat instead of dodge. And I've seen the reverse recommended.
Could I see some discussion on which (or neither), why, and qualifiers? I'm talking the mages and the rigger/hackers for the most part here, if that makes a difference.
thanks.
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The answer is this:
Dodge is about equivalent to the combination of Unarmed and Gymnastics - if you full-dodge, you get the benefit vs. both melee and ranged attacks, whereas if you Gymnastic Dodge, you only get it versus one or the other. However, Gymnastics lets you specialize in Tumbling (ie, all your dodges), whereas Dodge requires range or melee. Likewise, you can pick something like "martial arts" for Unarmed that applies to your melee defense all the time.
Dodge is only one skill, thus, half as expensive.
Different things boost the skills. Gymnastics is boosted by Synthacardium cheaply; Dodge is boosted by Move By Wire as a side effect (ie, you would probably want MBW even if it did not add to Dodge). Other stuff that adds generally works on both.
Gymnastics comes "for free" with the Athletics group.
How I figure out what to take:
First, a lot of people dramatically overrate how good active defenses (ie, full defense) is in Shadowrun. It's not worthless, don't get me wrong, but it isn't really that good either. Offense is favored over defense, hitting first and hardest is favored over playing defensively - even if you full defense, you have excellent odds of getting hit anyways if you're fighting tough opponents. Spells and critter powers often bypass dodge entirely. Finally, full dodge is an awful option in team-on-team fights; smart enemies will stop shooting at you when you full dodge, and shoot at your buddies instead. Generally, investing in high Initiative, good attacks, and high passive defenses (Reaction, Reakt, Combat Sense, Body, Armor, and a melee defense skill) should be a higher priority for most people.
Second, do not half-ass active defenses. Being able to blow an action for a +1 to your defense is crap. Either invest in a decent amount of active defense, or don't bother at all.
If you already want either Athletics and Unarmed, don't take dodge. Just take those.
If you don't want either Athletics or Unarmed, just take Dodge.
Don't take Athletics unless you really care about either all three of Climbing, Running, and Swimming, or if you care about 2 of them and want Unarmed Combat anyways.
If you aren't sure, look at what 'ware you eventually plan on getting. If you plan on getting MBW, I would go dodge. If you plan on getting Synthacardium, go Gymnastics. Synthacardium is very cheap (30000 and .3 essence for +3 to athletics) so most people can fit it in easily at some point, but at the same time you may want MBW even without caring about the Dodge.
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It depends.
Unarmed combat is not a complete defense. By that I mean you can't do squat with it against a ranged attack. So if its a question of having one skill or the other an the goal is to provide overall defense then dodge wins hands down.
But unarmed also lets you attack. Most mages and rigger/hackers probably won't have the stats/implants/powers to really rock physical close combat. The mage is going to want to cast/summon, the rigger is going to want to get a drone involved, etc. There may be times when using some shock gloves or applying a slap patch of some kind is called for, but over all these characters aren't going to be throwing down much. I would still go with dodge.
There is also the question of dodge or gymnastics. Gymnastics can substitute for dodge on a full defense, and its easier to bonus if your character has augmentation. For 30,000 nuyen (6 bps)and not much essence you can get a level 3 synthacardium and +3 dice to all athletics. This obviously doesn't work if you are a mage or an adept who is staying pure magic, but for a character open to augmentation I really like gymnastics as a defense option.
Edit: ninja'ed by Umaro, who has a far better answer than I did.
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Hey Umaro, question for you. I just realized that I may have had a rule very wrong. you wrote, " whereas if you Gymnastic Dodge, you only get it versus one or the other".
By this, I assume you are meaning that when SR4A says, "Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks." You are taking that to mean that if you gymnastic dodge you can apply it to melee, or to ranged, but not both at the same time? I suppose you could read the rule that way, but I always took it to mean that you could use gymnastics for both types of attacks, not that using it to defend against one locked out defense against the other. Is the either/or interpretation the common understanding? Is that they way it is played in organized games/missions/ etc. I have only every played with some friends, who expect me to be the one who understands the system. Am I doing this wrong? Unfortunately no one would have corrected me if I was.
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This one I think is actually clear: "either...or..." means one or the other, not both. Keep in mind it doesn't lock out ALL your defenses - just your Gymnastic Dodge only adds to one or the other. You still get your regular defense roll against the other type of attack.
I find it's not that big of an issue - usually you're Gymnastic Dodging in response to something really dangerous either at range or in melee.
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This one I think is actually clear: "either...or..." means one or the other, not both. Keep in mind it doesn't lock out ALL your defenses - just your Gymnastic Dodge only adds to one or the other. You still get your regular defense roll against the other type of attack.
I find it's not that big of an issue - usually you're Gymnastic Dodging in response to something really dangerous either at range or in melee.
I think that's an oversight. I wouldn't rule in your favor at my table.
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Dodge comes in handy (http://youtu.be/6npO-NoOPOg).
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When you're piloting a vehicle isn't the Dodge skill the only one you can use to avoid attacks?
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When you're piloting a vehicle isn't the Dodge skill the only one you can use to avoid attacks?
I can't find that in the rules. As far as I can see, everything you do while driving a vehicle is a Reaction +/- Handling + Vehicle skill check.
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When you're piloting a vehicle isn't the Dodge skill the only one you can use to avoid attacks?
Nope, you use your appropriate piloting skill.
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Right, I was thinking of the defense autosoft. Darn D words. My mistake.