Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Zilfer on <08-25-11/1503:59>
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Had a question that's probably been asked, but how many of you use the option rule that how many net hits you get on a spell casting of a combat spell increase the Drain Value by one.
I know we haven't been doing that, however if we did I would get very little amount of spells off in a game with a dice pool of 15 usually yeilding anywhere from 3-6 hits sometimes more. With 9 dice to resist (Will + Char) think i'd maybe get 2 spell off.
What, do most of you guys play by and the reason for that?
Also anyone know tips to increase the Drain resist pool? (I finally got Initiation and Centering) so that gives me +1 for now.
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fetishes help with drain, that manaweed or whatever its called drug as well as on of the gene-therapy treatments. A bound spirit can also assist with drain too i believe. I use that rule in my game, however I let the mage limit the amount of hits they want to use pre-roll if they choose too.
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fetishes help with drain, that manaweed or whatever its called drug as well as on of the gene-therapy treatments. A bound spirit can also assist with drain too i believe. I use that rule in my game, however I let the mage limit the amount of hits they want to use pre-roll if they choose too.
Doesn't the force limit the amount of hits anyways?
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Yes it does, force of the spell is the max possible hits. The force is also the DV in some spells right? So there may be a few circumstances where you'd what say and force 6 spell but may not want all 6 hits.
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Yes it does, force of the spell is the max possible hits. The force is also the DV in some spells right? So there may be a few circumstances where you'd what say and force 6 spell but may not want all 6 hits.
They should have picked something else than DV for Drain Value. I thought you just said Drain Value, but you were meaning Damage Value correct? xD
I guess that makes sense yes, but when i was reading the book it first shows up in the direct combat spells as an optional rule. So do some spells use that rule regardless?
Also Fetishs.... i thought those increased spell casting DP not helped resist drain? Maybe i'm thinking of Focus'
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Centering Foci are expensive, but awesome.
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We play with the optional rule of net hits increasing drain for direct combat spells (note, it's JUST direct combat spells) and it works pretty fairly in our campaign...
As for increasing drain dice, it's:
- Attributes
- Metamagic (Centering) with additional initiate grades
- Fetish casting
- Centering Focus
- Edge (very useful for the big spells)
I think these are the only things that will do it, but combining them gets you some pretty big numbers....
There are a few indirect ways to help as well:
- Metamagic (Absorption) - Doesn't give you drain dice per se, but it does just give you extra drain successes if you can get charged up... overcasting a F15 Lightning bolt with this is fun :)
- Trauma Dampener/Platelets- Again, doesn't give dice, but lets you ignore a box of Stun damage (effectively reduces any stun drain by 1 box). Nice.
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Yeah I kinda figured 6 edge would help with my spell casting when I needed to resist a lot of drain. That's mostly what I use my Edge for.
I've tossed 12F Stun balls, and 12F Lightning balls.
>.> Pretty amazing what you can do to a room with those. xD
Though even those are resistable, I found out.
In a non combat situation (A BBQ that my character was throwing) I invited everyone over, and we were partying and one person i intived. An NPC contact didn't show up but sent strippers instead to make it up. <.< (I got an Email saying "This is pay back for Vegas") lol i'm sure Vegas might not exist any more in this time but going along with it. He let them in and then the girls at one point started making their way sensually to all different party members. My guy just dropped the whole room pretty much save for 1 person who managed to get more hits than me. (edged my drain roll and got like 2 physical) Then I went off to find the guy I invited and crashed his "party" apparently he had company that night. The singular kind if you catch my drift. Anyways interupted that and casted orgy spell on him before I left. (poor poor doggie.... <.<) Regardless I came back about 4 hours later and everyone was just waking up save for the strippers. A guy named Kent, another NPC that we were supposed to kill and not save has been traveling with us because he believes there is a cranial bomb in his head that will explode if he doesn't listen to a physco gunshop owner who is a woman. (she's scary enough as is without her knocking him out with meds and showing him a chip that she was going to 'put in his head') xD Poor sod.
Anyways he wakes up and wants one of the strippers, so I'm like go ahead but you have to take them ALL across the street. I get a message not too much later of him drunk (he was already drunk but the vid showed another drink in his hands) and part of him doing the nasty. The unforunate part about this however was that he found out later that they were tranies. XD So I'm glad my mage didn't touch them. XD Poor kent is tramatized however. He has horrible luck in life I think. First I show up in my biker gear and Though control him into killing his whole gang. (F12 control thoughts for the win!) Then the crazy lady puts a chip in his head after saving him from the ensuing gun fight where he killed most of his gang before they even got a chance to react. <.< and then as a joke I have him not spending any of his money in Nuyen. He's got like 21K saved up and my character keeps telling him. "No Your going to college!" Become a common joke when we want Kent to shut up.
Also however this brings up a question about casting a F12 in a smaller area than 24 meter diameter. I've seen you can increase the range if you take off dice to make the area of effect bigger but can you make it smaller?
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Also however this brings up a question about casting a F12 in a smaller area than 24 meter diameter. I've seen you can increase the range if you take off dice to make the area of effect bigger but can you make it smaller?
Spell radius is based on Magic Rating, not Force.
So if you have 6 magic, your Are-of-Effect is a 6m radius (12m Diameter), regardless of the spell being F2 or F12
We house-ruled that you can take 1 die from Spellcasting to shrink the radius accordingly, just the same as removing 1 die to increase the radius. I don't know of any RAW mechanic for it, but this works for us. Kinda' like pulling your punches....
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SR4A, p. 183 (Area Spells):
The base radius for all area spells is the Force in meters. Area spells affect all valid targets within the radius of effect, friend and foe alike (including the caster). For this reason, spellcasters often choose to vary the radius of area spells. This is done by withholding dice from the Spellcasting Test. The caster can reduce or expand the base radius by 1 meter for every die withheld from the Spellcasting Test.
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Remember to Fireball Responsibly: The life you save could be your own, as your group would be less likely to beat you to death afterwards.
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Remember to Fireball Responsibly: The life you save could be your own, as your group would be less likely to beat you to death afterwards.
Heh I've never done it to my group save for the one time my character was holding a BBQ and some of the guests were starting to ruin it so to save my mage the trouble of a fight and possibly death breaking out as a shadowrunner might have killed a stripper for hitting on her husband, i just dropped a stun ball on the whole room while i backed up into a corner. Dropped everyone save for me and the person who would have probably killed someone. xD
Me: F12 STUNBALL!
DM: ... are you serious?
Me: *straight face* I'm absolutely Serious, get ready to roll for the stripers and Kent.
DM: Mathew.... what the fuck? Ok roll it.
Ah good times....
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Stunball means saying, "I'm sorry."
Fireball means saying, "I'M SORRY, PLEASE, STOP BEATING ME! DEAR GHOST, NOT THE FACE, NOT MY PRECIOUS FACE!!!"
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Stunball means saying, "I'm sorry."
Fireball means saying, "I'M SORRY, PLEASE, STOP BEATING ME! DEAR GHOST, NOT THE FACE, NOT MY PRECIOUS FACE!!!"
Actually not if the group knows your crazy enough to fire 3 force 12 stun balls. <.< in the same turn.
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Then he'd just be Dresdened. Gotcha.
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Then he'd just be Dresdened. Gotcha.
Think I saw that word somewhere else....
and if you mean fucked sure... if the party actually tried that. <.< If he dies he's takin people out with him if he gets a chance. XD
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The City of Dresden was firebombed.
Harry Dresden, Wizard, had a tendency of being in buildings. That were on fire. Usually his fault.
Then Harry Dresden was on his brother's boat, wondering why it was covered in blood, and why his shirt had a bullet-sized hole in it, heard some thunder, and then fell into Lake Michigan.
Then Harry Dresden saw the light at the end of the tunnel.
And heard a train whistle.
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The City of Dresden was firebombed.
Harry Dresden, Wizard, had a tendency of being in buildings. That were on fire. Usually his fault.
Then Harry Dresden was on his brother's boat, wondering why it was covered in blood, and why his shirt had a bullet-sized hole in it, heard some thunder, and then fell into Lake Michigan.
Then Harry Dresden saw the light at the end of the tunnel.
And heard a train whistle.
o.O time for force 12 Physical barrier and to run!
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Kinda hard to do when you're dead. :P
The Dresden Files, a good series for Shadowrun.
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Kinda hard to do when you're dead. :P
The Dresden Files, a good series for Shadowrun.
I've seen a good portion back when I had enough money for cable TV. XD
I liked it quite a bit, seem to remember something of a family curse or something tho. <.<
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*Cough* We do NOT talk about the TV show.
I'm talking about the REAL Dresden Files. They're books. And Comics.
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*Cough* We do NOT talk about the TV show.
I'm talking about the REAL Dresden Files. They're books. And Comics.
>.> that bad eh? It didn't seem that bad too me, though ERAGON is a whole nother story... <.<
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>.> that bad eh? It didn't seem that bad too me, though ERAGON is a whole nother story... <.<
Don't even get me started on that movie...
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I know we haven't been doing that, however if we did I would get very little amount of spells off in a game with a dice pool of 15 usually yeilding anywhere from 3-6 hits sometimes more. With 9 dice to resist (Will + Char) think i'd maybe get 2 spell off.
Only net hits used to boost the spells damage increase the drain, so your better of overcasting at high enough force to take out the target with only the one net hit needed for the spell to take effect or multicasting 2 lower force spells and again only using the 1 net hit needed per spell.
So for a normal 10 box stun tract you either
A) Force 9 stunbolt with only the needed 1 net hit used, damage 10S drain 9/2 - 1 + 1 = 4P(unless you have magic score of 9+)
or
B)Two force 5(same drain as force 4) stunbolt with only the needed 1 net hit used per spell, damage 12S(10S for force 4) drain 5/2 - 1 + 1 +1 = 3S per spell.
For you 9 dice drain pool the second one is the better option, unless the target has access to counterspelling.
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I know we haven't been doing that, however if we did I would get very little amount of spells off in a game with a dice pool of 15 usually yeilding anywhere from 3-6 hits sometimes more. With 9 dice to resist (Will + Char) think i'd maybe get 2 spell off.
Only net hits used to boost the spells damage increase the drain, so your better of overcasting at high enough force to take out the target with only the one net hit needed for the spell to take effect or multicasting 2 lower force spells and again only using the 1 net hit needed per spell.
So for a normal 10 box stun tract you either
A) Force 9 stunbolt with only the needed 1 net hit used, damage 10S drain 9/2 - 1 + 1 = 4P(unless you have magic score of 9+)
or
B)Two force 5(same drain as force 4) stunbolt with only the needed 1 net hit used per spell, damage 12S(10S for force 4) drain 5/2 - 1 + 1 +1 = 3S per spell.
For you 9 dice drain pool the second one is the better option, unless the target has access to counterspelling.
oh so all the hits don't count into it gotcha.
Though don't they get a resistance test after you make at least one net hit reducing the damage further? Or is that for only Indirect combat spells?
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Though don't they get a resistance test after you make at least one net hit reducing the damage further? Or is that for only Indirect combat spells?
Yes it is, direct combat spell only have one test to see whether yout hit the target or not.
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Though don't they get a resistance test after you make at least one net hit reducing the damage further? Or is that for only Indirect combat spells?
Yes it is, direct combat spell only have one test to see whether yout hit the target or not.
Think i'm going to like direct combat spells more now.... xD (not that i think I already didn't, though throwing a indirect is still fun.)
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Also however this brings up a question about casting a F12 in a smaller area than 24 meter diameter. I've seen you can increase the range if you take off dice to make the area of effect bigger but can you make it smaller?
Spell radius is based on Magic Rating, not Force.
So if you have 6 magic, your Are-of-Effect is a 6m radius (12m Diameter), regardless of the spell being F2 or F12
We house-ruled that you can take 1 die from Spellcasting to shrink the radius accordingly, just the same as removing 1 die to increase the radius. I don't know of any RAW mechanic for it, but this works for us. Kinda' like pulling your punches....
Incorrect by RAW. Spell radius is Force meters. Also in RAW, you can use the increase radius rule to decrease it as well.
I DESPISE that crap about only rolling to resist once with Direct. I roll it twice. I also just increased all Drain for direct spells by two rather than add hits to Drain.
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increased all Drain for direct spells by two rather than add hits to Drain.
This is what i would do too and probably lower the indirect spell drain code by 1 or 2.
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Also however this brings up a question about casting a F12 in a smaller area than 24 meter diameter. I've seen you can increase the range if you take off dice to make the area of effect bigger but can you make it smaller?
Spell radius is based on Magic Rating, not Force.
So if you have 6 magic, your Are-of-Effect is a 6m radius (12m Diameter), regardless of the spell being F2 or F12
We house-ruled that you can take 1 die from Spellcasting to shrink the radius accordingly, just the same as removing 1 die to increase the radius. I don't know of any RAW mechanic for it, but this works for us. Kinda' like pulling your punches....
Incorrect by RAW. Spell radius is Force meters. Also in RAW, you can use the increase radius rule to decrease it as well.
I DESPISE that crap about only rolling to resist once with Direct. I roll it twice. I also just increased all Drain for direct spells by two rather than add hits to Drain.
wow you doubled the drain on hits? that means if you take 2 net hits than you get a +4 drain on something like a lighting or fireball that's already +5 with half the force added.... o.O' you'd pretty much only be able to cast 1 spell. XD
and direct don't you roll to hit and then to resist? which means you do get 2 rolls? Unlike indirect?
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What? Review your terms, man. I said RATHER than increase the Drain of Direct spells by the net hits used, i just increase the Drain F/2 =whatever normal +2 more. Indirect spells like Lightning bolts remain unchanged.
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What? Review your terms, man. I said RATHER than increase the Drain of Direct spells by the net hits used, i just increase the Drain F/2 =whatever normal +2 more. Indirect spells like Lightning bolts remain unchanged.
gotcha gotcha. Sorry read that perhaps a bit toooo quickly. xD
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I apologize, I sounded quite snappish with my response.
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I apologize, I sounded quite snappish with my response.
No worries, yeah I myself though "INDIRRECT" (man it sounds so backwards to me) stuff like fireballs and lightning. The net hit's add to the drain seemed waaaaaaay to much drain for anything. Casting a fireball that does 1 damage or 1F if i'm reading magic section correctly still takes 6 drain! For a measely 1 damage. o.O' considering a 9 nice soak pool that my mage has that's not likely to cut it. If i'm lucky 2-3 drain. XD
I"m thinking i'm going to leave the Net hits as an optional thing for each DM to decide in our group for themselves but I won't be doing that.
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Net hits increasing Drain applies to Direct spells only. Non Direct spells, such as any elemental spells, are called Indirect spells and that rule does NOT apply. They have enough Drain as it is.
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Net hits increasing Drain applies to Direct spells only. Non Direct spells, such as any elemental spells, are called Indirect spells and that rule does NOT apply. They have enough Drain as it is.
Is that how it goes.... oh how do they say it.... RAW?
Which i've still no idea what RAW stands for. I'll get it eventually.
Rules Aniversery World? Donno anyways thanks for the clarification!
I remember reading somewhere that the rule was optional maybe that was for combat spells, and the direct is manditory?
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Net hits increasing Drain applies to Direct spells only. Non Direct spells, such as any elemental spells, are called Indirect spells and that rule does NOT apply. They have enough Drain as it is.
Is that how it goes.... oh how do they say it.... RAW?
Which i've still no idea what RAW stands for. I'll get it eventually.
Rules As Written (versus Rules As Intended).
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I remember reading somewhere that the rule was optional maybe that was for combat spells, and the direct is manditory?
It's completely optional rule.
It was mandatory in the first pdf version of SR4A, witch lasted for somethink like a week before it was changed to optional, as we pointed how fraking stupid rule it is and how it really doesn't work as intended(limit/equalize the power of direct combat spells compared to the indirect ones).
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Yeah, I just up the Drain of Direct a bit.
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Yeah, I just up the Drain of Direct a bit.
that indeed makes it more fair.
I'll have to think about doing that for my group as well, we'll see. I'm the only one who really plays a mage though... or at least one that casts a lot. <.< and i'm the only one brave enough to overcast though it seems 6 Edge might be the reason for that.
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Net hits increasing Drain applies to Direct spells only. Non Direct spells, such as any elemental spells, are called Indirect spells and that rule does NOT apply. They have enough Drain as it is.
That being said, I myself have misread that rule, I think most people do for a little bit then they either have it pointed out or reread it themselves. Ask the poor mage who fireballed himself to death with drain.
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You can easily do that as is! XD
Though I do have a question.... when it says net hits does that mean just the net hits you exceeded over the person you take in drain? Take this example
Say i'm sleeping a whole room of people. most only have 2 Will power so i need possibly 3 net hits to generate 1 let's say one rolls 2 hits. So that means I need 3 hits for a total net hit of 1.
Well now there's also another guy in the room resisting with i donno lets say 10 just to make it a round number. He scores say half hits. 5.
Now I need to increase the net hits to 6 in order to effect him. Just to have 1 net hit on him.
<.<
So my question comes into play now. This is a Stun ball btw.
Do I apply drain as (F/2) -1 I believe it was and then add in +1 for the highest net hit of the guy with 5 hits to resist? Or do I add in +4 net htis since i'm using a total of 6 hits and the highest guy with 2 will power got 2 hits?
Or do I add in all the net hits together? (i'm doubting this one....)
Anyways Net hit's is relative to each person rolled againsted it.... how do I determine drain in that situation?
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Use the highest applicable Drain you get from any one target. Whoever resists the least determines the Drain.
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Use the highest applicable Drain you get from any one target. Whoever resists the least determines the Drain.
Ah i see... well i think that's a little unfair if there's like Willpower 6 guys running around with a Willpower 1 guy but you know whatever. XD
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That is one of my favorite things to do as the GM is to toss a Willpower 1 guy into the AOE of Direct spells and toss the opposing mage in at the same time. Players almost ALWAYS want to hit all valid targets in the area, so they use enough to get the mage and are blasted by Drain. The team mage gets the epic "slaughter everyone" moment and then the team gets to mop up while the mage finds cover and clutches at his throbbing head. Helps keep Direct Combat mage in check while everyone else does their thing.
I usually do this midway through the adventure, and then allow a spot for people to recover from Stun at least once (which mages are usually pretty good at) before the end game,
I don't usually get Direct spell spammers though. People in my group tend to like Manipulations and elemental attacks/manifestations. My real trouble is controlling adepts and Critical Strike/Martial Arts combos.
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That is one of my favorite things to do as the GM is to toss a Willpower 1 guy into the AOE of Direct spells and toss the opposing mage in at the same time. Players almost ALWAYS want to hit all valid targets in the area, so they use enough to get the mage and are blasted by Drain. The team mage gets the epic "slaughter everyone" moment and then the team gets to mop up while the mage finds cover and clutches at his throbbing head. Helps keep Direct Combat mage in check while everyone else does their thing.
I usually do this midway through the adventure, and then allow a spot for people to recover from Stun at least once (which mages are usually pretty good at) before the end game,
I don't usually get Direct spell spammers though. People in my group tend to like Manipulations and elemental attacks/manifestations. My real trouble is controlling adepts and Critical Strike/Martial Arts combos.
Close quarters must be a very bad place to be with those adepts then. XD
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Indeed. However, most of our adept players seem to prefer Inflitration boost + Silenced guns as much as the melee adepts. In other words, we don't get full ninjas, we get ranged-only ninjas or samurai types. ;)
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Indeed. However, most of our adept players seem to prefer Inflitration boost + Silenced guns as much as the melee adepts. In other words, we don't get full ninjas, we get ranged-only ninjas or samurai types. ;)
Sounds like a fun time to me.
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Yeah, until the adepts grab that 8th level of Critical Strike and sling 20 dice for unarmed around.
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Yeah, until the adepts grab that 8th level of Critical Strike and sling 20 dice for unarmed around.
I sling that much dice for my pistols.... without being an adept. xD
>.> <.<'
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It's easier to up the pistols dice pool. Smartlinks being one big reason. You get the picture.
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It's easier to up the pistols dice pool. Smartlinks being one big reason. You get the picture.
Indeed. But it's still fun rolling all those dice. (recently rolled my DnD character's stats by rolling colored dice)