Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: RonyoStorm on <08-28-11/1919:21>
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Been doing some work on coming up with a sniper build for a new game a friend of mine is working on. Now he has some of the old 3rd edition stuff and is thinking of going that way. I was just looking for some ideas for a 3rd and 4th edition sniper build. Looking to be covering my team when I can but able to set-up quickly for the critical shot. Thinking melee for close quarters but I could go heavy pistol or twin pistols as well. Like I said its all still being worked out just looking for some friendly and helpful insight.
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I can't offer any useful advice about 3rd, but about 4th:
"Sniper" should be something you can do, not your role on a team; there are a lot of times when having a sniper is simply not useful so you should be able to do useful stuff aside from snipe. Luckily, it is easy to be good at other things.
In 4th, Longarms are not the way to snipe, which is deceptive because you would think you want to snipe with a sniper rifle. You actually want to snipe with an assault cannon (Heavy Weapons) or possibly a Battle Rifle (Automatics).
Check my sig and look at the Ghost for an example of a sniping-capable runner.
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I tentatively disagree that Sniper cannot be a valid role.
Also, even if maybe you can eke out a few more DV with an assault cannon or battle rifle, sniper rifles remain a very strong choice.
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Question about the longarms sniper. Is the objection just that the skill is too situational to justify a high build point investment, and that "sniping"with a weapon covered by automatics or heavy weaopons is a more effective use of the skills? Just at first glance an 8P -3AP weapon with the best ranged modifiers doesn't seem like a bad way to go.
I agree that being a "sniper" is a limited role. Many situations don't call for long distance shooting. Its nice to have someone in the group that can do this for when it comes up but as a character's primary focus its limited. Its hard to use in a street fight, and many times you don't have the luxury of picking and preping a location and laying for someone.
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Like I said I'm waiting to hear more about the story from my friend but Even someone who can switch to say an assault rifle and still get the range helps to thin out numbers before they reach the dps and tank. Having the long range skills also helps in situational awareness and your aim should only improve the closer you get.
I looked at the heavy weapons, those are some serious hitters and also on the high side of a thick wallet. I'm not sure I would have the bank roll to even purchase one of those weapons to start. A good sniper rifle, even just a modern style idea would be great for cover fire, and also if its semi0auto its good for normal encounter I would think.
What stats and specs would you anyone else here go with for the role then? I got some basics but I find getting a general overview helps to see what trends and best ideas are.
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For any physical combat agility is absolutly key. I would consider softcaping it (meaning taking it at your metatype max-1), getting a quality called Restricted Gear (this is in Runner's companion, costs 5 BP, can be taken up to3 times, and lets you get an item of up to availablity 20.) and taking Muscle Toner 4 under bioware. This will give you an agility of 9 on average, depending on the metatype you are playing.
If you are going in on sniper rifle the skill is longarms, and you can specialize in sniper rifles. Longarms 6(sniper rifle+2) costs 26 build points. With a smartllink you have 19 dice with a sniper rilfe. In many circumstances it would be reasonable to take aim and do a called shot at -4 to your dice pool with +4 to damage value. That leaves you with 15 dices and a weapon that is either 11 or 12 P -3 AP.
I don't know the guns in the Aresenal book off the top of my head, but there are two Sniper Rifles in SR4A. The Walther MA-2100 has one lower damage value, and can not be broken down in a suit case, but doesn't have fussy issues in close combat and doesn't require another restricted gear quality to buy.
The Ranger Arms SM-4 hits a little harder and can be broken down into a case, but it has an availablity of 16F, meaning its another Restricted Gear quality at char gen if you want it. It is also more expensive. On of the downside of sniper rifles is that they are rated F instead of R, so you can't get a permit, even a fake one, for them, and unless you have a briefcase model they can be hard to move around in secure areas. Of course same applies to assault cannons, however, perhaps even more so.
Supporting skills will likely be things like Infiltration (the basic stealth skill in 4th ed) and some way to fight in medium to close range. One of the nice things about a very high agility is that with even moderate weapon skills you can end up with a fair dice pool on things, even if its not "the best" with minimal skill points. Try to get a decent reaction for defence, and maybe dodge. If you stay away from melee skills you don't have to worry about much strength, or if you grab a melee skill go unarmed and get a set of shock gloves. Perception is useful for all characters.
Depending on character backstory, if he learned to sniple in the military you would probably have some outdoor skills, but talk to the GM (are you the GM?) about how often this will be useful. In some campaigns you need a survival/tracking/navigation guy, in others you never see the city limits of Seattle. Make sure if he drops some points here the GM will give you some chances to use it and it doesn't end up being 30 build points of flavor.
Be sure to get an extra initiative pass or two, via wired reflexes (the cheapest), synaptic booster (bioware, very expensive nuyen wise but low essence and hard to detect) or move by wire (the cadilac version of wired reflexes).
Note all of this assumes you are going with heavy augmentation and are not an adept.
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One thing to keep in mind is that going all-in on Longarms can be a very effective skill choice, in that you'll be proficient in both sniper rifles as well as shotguns. Sniper rifles are all Forbidden, but none of the shotguns are over Restricted, and only one shotgun in the whole game has an availability over 12. And it's a fully-automatic shotgun! Going for the Longarms route with both sniper rifles and shotguns gives you the long-range covering fire as well as the room-to-room combat ability of Automatics.
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Sniper Rifles are bad because they are unconcealable (like Assault Cannons), Forbidden (like Assault Cannons), have the same range as assault cannons, and do less damage than assault cannons.
Shotguns are bad because so many of the useful gun mods can't be installed on them, so they fill the niche of "like assault rifles, but less concealable and worse."
Going all-in on Longarms is not a good plan, at all, because this leaves you with no not-terrible option for times when you need a concealable weapon. If you want to go all-in on a weapons skill, it should either be Pistols or Automatics.
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Unless, of course, you're a guy that's designed around using a Sniper Rifle instead of an Assault Cannon. Like, y'know, a sniper.
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Sniper Rifles are bad because they are unconcealable (like Assault Cannons), Forbidden (like Assault Cannons), have the same range as assault cannons, and do less damage than assault cannons.
Shotguns are bad because so many of the useful gun mods can't be installed on them, so they fill the niche of "like assault rifles, but less concealable and worse."
Going all-in on Longarms is not a good plan, at all, because this leaves you with no not-terrible option for times when you need a concealable weapon. If you want to go all-in on a weapons skill, it should either be Pistols or Automatics.
I don't think I would call a weapon designed to be broken down and hidden in a brief case not concealable, and sniper rifles do in fact have better range, having 50 meters on the assualt cannon at every range band excepet extreeme.
I am also not sure what the close range combat option for Heavy Weapons is, other than assault cannon to the face, so sniper rife to the face should be just as viable. (although there are some models that suffer possible penaties in close combat, but not all do.)
The assault cannon does hit harder.
As earlier, I did and do agree that if you make sniping your primary option then you are taking on a somewhat limited role, there will be many situations where it just doesn't help. But if thats where you want to put your points I am not sure that longarms is really all that worse of a buy than heavy weapons. There seem to be advantages and disadvantages each way. For the times that you do need to descretly get a long range weapon somewhere a briefcase sniper rifle will be much, much easier to smuggle into a location that a Panther. I don't know that I would take either heavy weapons or longarms as my 6 skill if I was making a firearms expert, but I don't think its terrible if you do.
I do agree that shotguns sound cool but really are not the way to go. Except in the very rare situation where you are fighting mobs of unarmored mooks and you want to clean house with a full auto shotgun, you are probably better off with an automatic, and even then I think a well kitted assault rifle would likely serve better.
Please note, all of this discussion is really from an optimization point of view. In a more casual campaign you can go with whatever and its playable. Just make sure you have a good sense from the GM what the expected power level is. Sometimes you need optimized to keep up, sometimes if you show up with optimized they tell you to tone it down.
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A possibility is to reconsider what a sniper is in "reality", and see if that can be integrated.
A sniper is, of course, a long range marksman par excellence. However, a marksman is also a superb recon specialist. That's infiltration and the ability to hide in plain sight. It's a score of tactical investigation tasks (which includes the ability to analyze and determine what matters) and the ability and skill to communicate the key elements back to the people who know.
I'll also point out that while the sniper is capable of the long range shot, what she REALLY practices is getting to the place where she can place the shot that matters when it matters. In some cases that means getting to ranges approaching point blank. While the sniper rifle is still the preferred weapon, in a few cases the range and the conditions require another weapon.
Just points to consider. But that's "reality" and not SR, so it may not work for you.
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Sniper rifles do have marginally better range up till extreme, but if you are a sniper you don't care because you can use vision enhancement, and thus only care about extreme.
For non-sniping with heavy weapons, machine guns. They are quite good. They also give you the long-range and concealable grenade launcher pistol.
You can mod the briefcase-breakdown thing onto an assault cannon. It is marginally more expensive (if you want to be cheap, an Ares Vigorous Assault Cannon with powered breakdown and modded to be SA is 8500Y, a Ranger Arms SM-4 (the only sniper rifle with the powered breakdown built-in) is 6200. I'm willing to pay 2300Y more for a weapon that gives me an extra +2 DV and -3 AP, and assembles in 2/3 the time if you care about that. If you want good, and are willing to spare no expense, you can even modify a gauss rifle with powered breakdown although that is going to run you nearly 30000Y.
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Kirk's advice is also good. The way that the skillsets work, you can be someone like the Ghost who is good at sneaking into places, spotting, sniping, and closer-in range combat pretty handily, because all of these things depend on Agility and Intuition. This makes you someone who can snipe, but who isn't at all ineffective when the situation does not call for sniping - which, let's face it, a lot of shadowruns do not.
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Also, something to think about, what is your background? Are you envisioning a former spec ops guy? If so, while a lot of them are sniper qualified and can perform in that role, those guys tend to have evolved beyond that and are bad juju with any weapon. If you're thinking "sniper" that tends to be a more defined, conventional combat role.
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While I admit that heavy weapons have advantages, but if your close combat option is busting out a man portable full machine gun I think you have slipped a bit more to the pink mohawk side of the street that I usually go. Unless you are in zero zone, a feral city, or a full on combat run where subtle be damed and we are going to make some noise, this type of hardware brings swat teams in v-stal assault craft. You can't hide a Ma-Deuce under a trench coat, troll or no troll. And I think a Panther Cannon would be more suitcase portable the briefcase portable considering the size of the thing.
I will say I do agree very much with both Kirk and Your assesment of how to build a good sniper character. Make sniping something the character can do, but perhaps not the only thing the character is about. Infiltration is always useful. Percpetion is always useful. In some campaigns you may need someone with outdoor skills. Military training could include demolitions, first aid, etc, as secondary skill sets.
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Another thing to consider along with the fact that snipers are infiltrators as much as anything else is the fact that after they fire they tend to move to another firing postion. Probaly easier to do with a rifle than an Cannon. Also I am pretty sure you could get sound suppressors on a sniper rifle which would serve to conceal your postion even better I dont think they would work on a Panther though I might be wrong on that. My campaigns tend to go more of the 'semi realistic' style than the numbers crunched into damage machines so I admittedly don't have a ton of experience with Cannons.
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I like all the feedback and thank you for it. I like Kirk's idea for the true sniper idea and was thinking more along those lines. Maybe go with a good sniper rifle for the recon and long range shots, and get a good assault rifle with a good optic and options, and maybe a nice powerful hand gun. The tracking and field ops was going to be an option. Thanks for all the great advice, and I do like the cannon idea for maybe something as a in case of emergeny blow the crap out of something idea.
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While I admit that heavy weapons have advantages, but if your close combat option is busting out a man portable full machine gun I think you have slipped a bit more to the pink mohawk side of the street that I usually go. Unless you are in zero zone, a feral city, or a full on combat run where subtle be damed and we are going to make some noise, this type of hardware brings swat teams in v-stal assault craft. You can't hide a Ma-Deuce under a trench coat, troll or no troll. And I think a Panther Cannon would be more suitcase portable the briefcase portable considering the size of the thing.
And everyone would be cool with you with a sniper rifle? I think they'll be calling the same support for either (what they can get before you get away). You can silence either them just as well in SR.
Personally I'm more of a fan of just using an assault rifle. It's good damage, not that unusual (the things are restricted after all), and range should be good enough for the vast majority of cases you'll want to "snipe" in SR. Battle Rifles are even better for this role if you allow them. Or get a mage with optical binoculars and call it a day.
As for character building, sniping is something you can do, not a role. A guy who can snipe is useful because that lets you take advantage of opportunities when they knock, a guy who can only snipe is dead weight most of the time. Honestly though, most combat characters who have some interest in stealth can snipe. I do suggest Umaro's Ghost build (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J5-Z04bXEhuylLRumDT7tUA36rsNq0sWRdIHnQFDFxg/edit?hl=en_US)as a start.
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And everyone would be cool with you with a sniper rifle?
A sniper rifle will get you arrested for sure, but heavy weapons induce extreme response in police and security. Firearms are fairly common in this society, but heavy weapons are a declaration of intent. Yes, anyone shooting will provoke a stong response. A "shots fired" com call with brings more units from security/police. But "Troll with heavy machine gun" brings swat teams and craploads of more units, maybe a mage, drones, air cover, etc. Its not just a mook with a gun, its either a psycho with military hardware or a professional with very blunt intentions. It touches a nerve.
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I like all the feedback and thank you for it. I like Kirk's idea for the true sniper idea and was thinking more along those lines. Maybe go with a good sniper rifle for the recon and long range shots, and get a good assault rifle with a good optic and options, and maybe a nice powerful hand gun. The tracking and field ops was going to be an option. Thanks for all the great advice, and I do like the cannon idea for maybe something as a in case of emergeny blow the crap out of something idea.
Normally I don't advocate the Firearms skill group, but if you follow my advice on Agillity this might be a case where Firearms SG 4 makes sense. With smartllinked weapons thats still 15 dice with any non-heavy non-exotic firearm, and you can start to add specializations with your first Karma. Not bleeding edge good, but 15 dice is a solid pool by any standards, you can still "snipe" fairly well, and you can use pistols/automatics as the situation calls for it.
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Just a few opinions of mine.
A.) I wouldn't blow 5BP on Restricted Gear for Muscle Toner 4 a starting character unless its a one shot event or something you don't plan on getting to play long. Getting those extra two levels of Muscle Toner is only another 16k plus surgery expenses. Should be easily affordable in two to three runs if you play your cards right.
B.) My understanding is that Assault Cannons can only fire Assault Cannon rounds. Sniper Rifles can fire multiple types of ammo. This makes them a better option to me just for the ability to quickly adapt to your target by switching ammo types. If you want to give up this adaptability for a really heavy hitting gun, slap High Power Chambering on a Barret (You'll want to pick up ammo in game for it to be an efficient choice) for 11P -5AP. Total gun is 18k most effecient bought in character.
C.) Don't underestimate the value of sporting rifles as well if you're wanting to seem like a citizen. Another nice choice in this group is getting a reduced barrel on the PJSS Elephant rifle and loading it up with EX-exp rounds. Pulling both barrels will put your damage at 11P -2AP.
D.) While shotguns aren't the best option, they are not horrible if you want a good close combat option to supplement your sniping talent.
Agility 5 (7) + Longarms 6 + Skill Recorder 1 + Smartlink 2 = 16 dice pool. First two karma pick up a specialization in sniper rifles, 16k in pick up two more levels of Muscle Toner (or you could pick up one level of Muscle Toner and raise AGI once with Karma) to get up to 19 dice. Don't forget, being a sniper you're going to be taking aim in many instances (a 6 skill lets you take three simple actions for a +3 to you attack) and if they aren't aware they don't get a defense roll (net hits = extra damage), in addition called shots for damage and negating armor can be good calls too.
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Being a sniper is similar to being a close combat specialist, in that it is a very niche role, BUT a lot of the things you need to be a good sniper have a more general usefulness. Perception and infiltration are bread and butter skills for shadowrunners, and a high Agility is useful for all of the other skills linked to that Attribute.
For skills, though, I generally take the skill of 6 plus specialization for pistols or automatics, and the skill of 4 plus specialization for the "sniping" dice pool. The reason for this is that sniping is typically an aimed shot against an unaware target - you don't need quite as high of a dice pool.
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Something else I thought of- With the exception of the Ares Thunderstruck, which has an availability of 24f making it unavailable even with Restricted Gear, the assault cannons are single shot. The sniper rifles are semi-auto. You can get more rounds down ranger in the same amount of time with the sniper rilfe. The rounds do hit for less, but double the effective rate of fire (two shots per action phase rather than one) must be considered in the overall damage output of the weapon.
Also, as someone else already said, on a covert operation the ability to use a fully legal and easy to transport sporting rifle might come in handy
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Well it's a rather cheap mod to make the Assault Cannon semi-auto (300 and 1 slot).
My preferred starting sniper rifle:
Ares Desert Strike
Built In Mods: Extended Barrel, Detachable Image Scope, Shock Pad
[Electric Firing, Silencer, Smartlink, Improved Range Finder]
With subsonic ammo: 8P -1AP, -7 penalty to be heard
With flechette ammo: 10P +2AP
With Ex-exp ammo: 9P -4AP
With APDS ammo: 8P -7AP
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Unless, of course, you're a guy that's designed around using a Sniper Rifle instead of an Assault Cannon. Like, y'know, a sniper.
Interesting real life example of a sniper using an MG...longest distance kill ever, I believe. Some kind of record, not necessarily that one. (I know an MG's not an assault cannon, but still, a mildly ridiculous occurence.)
Only laziness prevents me from linking it.
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In terms of rules, Umaro is right. There is no reason not to use the Assault Cannon really.
In terms of thematics and sense, the sniper rifle is the obvious choice. It's also not a major downgrade in power.
In terms of comedy, threatening gangers with an elephant gun is where its at.
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C.) Don't underestimate the value of sporting rifles as well if you're wanting to seem like a citizen.
Actually is this the case in the SR universe? After all, the AK-97 is as legal (Restricted), cheaper or as cheap, and has the same availability as any sporting rifle.
It makes a fair amount of sense as well. The wilderness (and cities) in the SR universe is quite more dangerous, full of paracritters that either have no fear or are actively hostile towards metahumans. Since nearly all paracritters are some form of glass cannon, you really need to be able to take them down quickly if encountered. An AK-97 is good at taking down most paracritters with even a modest dice pool due to the ability to wide burst. Whereas a sporting rifle is more iffy.
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In terms of rules, Umaro is right. There is no reason not to use the Assault Cannon really.
In terms of thematics and sense, the sniper rifle is the obvious choice. It's also not a major downgrade in power.
In terms of comedy, threatening gangers with an elephant gun is where its at.
This.
Sometimes doing what is numerically superior isn't in line with your character concept.
My Merc, for example, has the Firearms Skill Group. Is it the most efficient use of his BP during CharGen? No...but it fit the character concept.
This gives him the ability to use Sniper Rifles without the Heavy Weapons skill that an Assault Cannon would require. He's not a sniper, per se, but he can snipe. Or pick up a shotgun. Yeah, he doesn't own those...he carries a highly modified (read: Concealable) Assault Rifle and a few pistols...but he can use them if the situation arises.
Is he as efficient as if I had spent those points on Automatics and Pistols? Firearms Skill Group cost 40BP, whereas with Automatics 4 (AR +2) and Pistols 4 (Heavy Pistol +2) I would have been better with my weapons and saved 4 BP. I can see an argument that would be the best decision...but, again, based on his backstory, he should be able to use whatever firearms are on hand. *Shrug*
I usually am an advocate for specializing your character concept, and efficient use of your points - but "Style over Substance" is also a guiding principle, when it comes to all things Cyberpunk.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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If you want to snipe, shouldn't you be a mage? LOS spells have very good distance and hit very hard. Plus they are very concealable.
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If you want to snipe, shouldn't you be a mage? LOS spells have very good distance and hit very hard. Plus they are very concealable.
heh - i actually started drawing up a mage sniper when this got posted. Don't like what I have right now, but it was a fun exercise. Not least was thinking of improved invisibility and phantasm on that frigging approach the target exercise.
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If you want to snipe, shouldn't you be a mage? LOS spells have very good distance and hit very hard. Plus they are very concealable.
heh - i actually started drawing up a mage sniper when this got posted. Don't like what I have right now, but it was a fun exercise. Not least was thinking of improved invisibility and phantasm on that frigging approach the target exercise.
"Sniper approached the instructor by being a sneaky bastard, Sergeant Major!"
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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My Merc, for example, has the Firearms Skill Group. Is it the most efficient use of his BP during CharGen? No...but it fit the character concept.
This gives him the ability to use Sniper Rifles without the Heavy Weapons skill that an Assault Cannon would require. He's not a sniper, per se, but he can snipe. Or pick up a shotgun. Yeah, he doesn't own those...he carries a highly modified (read: Concealable) Assault Rifle and a few pistols...but he can use them if the situation arises.
Is he as efficient as if I had spent those points on Automatics and Pistols? Firearms Skill Group cost 40BP, whereas with Automatics 4 (AR +2) and Pistols 4 (Heavy Pistol +2) I would have been better with my weapons and saved 4 BP. I can see an argument that would be the best decision...but, again, based on his backstory, he should be able to use whatever firearms are on hand. *Shrug*
You're also cutting off being able to start with Pistols or Automatics at 6 at Character Creation by going with Firearms group. So it's -2 to whatever gun skill you'll be using 80% of the time or a 22 karma tax.
Really the problem is that you shouldn't be placed in this position between having a skill that's reasonable for you to have or costing yourself valuable resources. And the fault there belongs to the failure of the skill groups.
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On the flipside, put a "Masterkey" on one of those concealable ARs and you have a sweet entry weapon!
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one alternative to the sniper builds that some people seem to overlook is to go the more 'manual' route. A troll or ork with strength 12 will do 14P when firing a bow, and will do 15P when using explosive tip arrows. The range at that strength is comparable to that of a sporting rifle! Add in the fact that there are numerous ways to increase dice pool just like a firearm (adept abilities, laser sight if your GM allows it, etc), the fact that a bow is completely silent, and is totally legal, and you have a pretty nice way to be a sniper while taking an interesting and alternate route.
Just food for thought
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Unless, of course, you're a guy that's designed around using a Sniper Rifle instead of an Assault Cannon. Like, y'know, a sniper.
Interesting real life example of a sniper using an MG...longest distance kill ever, I believe. Some kind of record, not necessarily that one. (I know an MG's not an assault cannon, but still, a mildly ridiculous occurence.)
Only laziness prevents me from linking it.
Carlos Hathcock, "the White Feather," used a Browning M2 to great effect, yes. He did so by converting the thing to single-shot and custom mounting a scope on it, and he did that because, at the time, he was working an MP rotation at a defensive position that happened to have the .50 sitting there and no one using it. He had some time to kill, mounted his scope to it, and took a shot at a VC gunrunner (making the longest confirmed kill at ~2500, until a Canadian sniper team broke the record several years ago).
He did most of his work with a regular rifle, however. A Winchester model 70, chambered in .308.
"Sniper rifle" is a task IRL, not a weapon classification. The same .308 bolt-action (albeit with some custom work done) is used to hunt deer all across the country, and a neighbor of mine openly carries his in a rack in his pick-up truck.
Shadowrun's "Sport rifles" are plenty dangerous, especially if you've got a respectable die pool, are shooting at someone from ambush/surprise, and take a few actions to add dice to your pool by aiming (and then call a shot for extra damage).
For 90% of what a shadowrunner should be doing, there's no need for a silly-high damage code rifle.
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Ah, thank you for naming the exact sniper I was thinking of with all of the (as I recall, accurate) details that I left out. Hathcock is definitely the guy I was thinking of.
For 90% of what a shadowrunner should be doing, there's no need for a silly-high damage code rifle.
True, but I've still gots mad love for the Barrett. (In SR, anyway. I have mad hate for its scaldingly inaccurate portrayal in certain videogame series, but that's neither here nor there.)
Edit (formatting mine for emphasis):
one alternative to the sniper builds that some people seem to overlook is to go the more 'manual' route. A troll or ork with strength 12 will do 14P when firing a bow, and will do 15P when using explosive tip arrows. The range at that strength is comparable to that of a sporting rifle! Add in the fact that there are numerous ways to increase dice pool just like a firearm (adept abilities, laser sight if your GM allows it, etc), the fact that a bow is completely silent, and is totally legal, and you have a pretty nice way to be a sniper while taking an interesting and alternate route.
XD
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Ah, thank you for naming the exact sniper I was thinking of with all of the (as I recall, accurate) details that I left out. Hathcock is definitely the guy I was thinking of.
For 90% of what a shadowrunner should be doing, there's no need for a silly-high damage code rifle.
True, but I've still gots mad love for the Barrett. (In SR, anyway. I have mad hate for its scaldingly inaccurate portrayal in certain videogame series, but that's neither here nor there.)
Yeah. My non-Sniper mercenary really wants a modded Barret. It's a wildly expensive liability that he has no foreseeable use for...
...but he really wants one. ;D
You know...for a rainy day.
-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
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one alternative to the sniper builds that some people seem to overlook is to go the more 'manual' route. A troll or ork with strength 12 will do 14P when firing a bow, and will do 15P when using explosive tip arrows. The range at that strength is comparable to that of a sporting rifle! Add in the fact that there are numerous ways to increase dice pool just like a firearm (adept abilities, laser sight if your GM allows it, etc), the fact that a bow is completely silent, and is totally legal, and you have a pretty nice way to be a sniper while taking an interesting and alternate route.
Just food for thought
Bows and arrows are limited to a maximum strength rating of 8.
Still, that 10P/11P with explosive tips is nothing to scoff at.
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one alternative to the sniper builds that some people seem to overlook is to go the more 'manual' route. A troll or ork with strength 12 will do 14P when firing a bow, and will do 15P when using explosive tip arrows. The range at that strength is comparable to that of a sporting rifle! Add in the fact that there are numerous ways to increase dice pool just like a firearm (adept abilities, laser sight if your GM allows it, etc), the fact that a bow is completely silent, and is totally legal, and you have a pretty nice way to be a sniper while taking an interesting and alternate route.
Just food for thought
Bows and arrows are limited to a maximum strength rating of 8.
Still, that 10P/11P with explosive tips is nothing to scoff at.
that, sir, is incorrect.. core book pg. 316 "Material science limits high-tech bows to a maximum Strength rating of 12"
As for the noise associated with explosive tip arrows, this is something that we've actually debated in our group. One thought is that it's a mini-grenade, and therefore makes a "boom" when it hits something. Seems a little off, considering it only adds 1 damage. The other thought is that it's a micro-charge that makes the wound expand like a hollow-point bullet. Either way, it wouldn't affect anyone being able to locate the shooter's position, which as a comparison is half the point of a gun's silencer anyways.
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Edit (formatting mine for emphasis):
one alternative to the sniper builds that some people seem to overlook is to go the more 'manual' route. A troll or ork with strength 12 will do 14P when firing a bow, and will do 15P when using explosive tip arrows. The range at that strength is comparable to that of a sporting rifle! Add in the fact that there are numerous ways to increase dice pool just like a firearm (adept abilities, laser sight if your GM allows it, etc), the fact that a bow is completely silent, and is totally legal, and you have a pretty nice way to be a sniper while taking an interesting and alternate route.
XD
Don't you think that a character set up to be a bow-using sniper would have multiple kinds of arrows? And the bow itself doesn't make any noise when fired, that's what I was getting at.
It's a legal, high-damage, silent, cheap weapon.
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Bows and arrows are limited to a maximum strength rating of 8.
Still, that 10P/11P with explosive tips is nothing to scoff at.
that, sir, is incorrect.. core book pg. 316 "Material science limits high-tech bows to a maximum Strength rating of 12"
Different printings have different numbers. Same page, same paragraph, same sentence, in other printings says "Material science limits high-tech bows to a maximum Strength rating of 8."
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Bows and arrows are limited to a maximum strength rating of 8.
Still, that 10P/11P with explosive tips is nothing to scoff at.
that, sir, is incorrect.. core book pg. 316 "Material science limits high-tech bows to a maximum Strength rating of 12"
Different printings have different numbers. Same page, same paragraph, same sentence, in other printings says "Material science limits high-tech bows to a maximum Strength rating of 8."
no kidding? huh.
Any idea which version is the most recent?
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To bring this back to sniping: Wasn't Carlos Hathcock the fellow that had a sniper duel and actually put his round through his opponent's scope and into his eye, like we see in movies all the time now?
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To bring this back to sniping: Wasn't Carlos Hathcock the fellow that had a sniper duel and actually put his round through his opponent's scope and into his eye, like we see in movies all the time now?
Yes. He also had an actual bounty placed on his head by the Viet Cong ($25k, I want to say?). Two awesome things came of it: (1) he stalked and killed every VC sniper sent after him, in true badass fashion. (2) Quite a few of the Marines he served with began wearing white feathers in their caps, his signature look (and why the VC gave him the name "White Feather"), in a real-life I Am Spartacus, No I Am moment.
What impresses me more about Gunnery Sergeant Hatcock isn''t even his sniping, though (the United States has three men that I can think of with higher confirmed kill counts, in fact)...it was everything else about him. He stopped actively sniping in the field because he burned the hell out of himself (while on leave!) rushing to pull seven injured Marines out of a burning vehicle. He insisted on continuing to serve despite being more than qualified for a medical discharge, and dedicated himself to instructing at the USMC Scout Sniper school (often while visibly weeping blood through his cracking, peeling, burn scars). When his health declined later in life due to the burn damage and multiple sclerosis ganging up on him, he only reluctantly left the service (and even then he took up shark fishing as a casual hobby, because everyone knows shark fishing isn't physically demanding or anything, right?). He was just a real life man whose story reads like fiction.
He's an undeniable hero in my book, and not for his shooting. "I like shooting, and I love hunting. But I never did enjoy killing anybody," he once said. It was the rest of the man that impresses the hell out of me, not his ability to pull a trigger.
...and...uhh...*shuffles feet a little*...yeah. So, anyways. Sorry for rambling a bit -- but learning remarkable individual stories like this is how I got into doing what I do, in real life. History's awesome (in the classic sense of the word, awe-inspiring) when you give it a chance.
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This is a pretty good thread; Not least because it doesn't go into "sniperwank" territory and people actually discuss the parts of a snipers job besides shooting people in the head. It is a specialist role for a shadowrunner team, but if your game is heavy in the wetwork territory or has the shadowrunners working more as military contractors in some guerrilla war zone a sniper can be very helpful.
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Designated Marksman roles are better for Shadowrunner teams, especially with Battle Rifles now stated and included, so you have more than just some hunting rifle.
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'Course, a lot of old "Hunting Rifles" are just old Battle Rifles. ;)