Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Seraph on <09-06-11/1611:13>
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Okay, I donīt really know where to post this, itīs about characters, but more then one. So If im wrong just move it.
So our group has been playing RPGs together for a few years and everyone has played for some years, 3-10 i think. And now we got our eyes on Shadowrun 4A:ed. We usually get a rather broad varity of skills and personas while gaming together. But since we donīt know all that much about the campaign builds for this setting we ( i ) would like to know what you think of our chances of survival, completing missions, overall etc etc.
So the group then.
1 Break and enter infiltrator character. Much focus on talking her way out of harm and stealth.
1 Mage, focusing on manipulation magics and lots of languages for interpretation.
1 Dronerigger, focusing on his drones and a broad varity of Logic skills electronics/mechanics/hacker
1 Adept Face, hugh amounts of charisma powers and qualities, few other traits actually
1 Fighter, going Tank with cyberware and loads of armor. Few other traits
1 not chosen yet ....
Do you se flaws directly, is there something we have missed thatīs crucial?
Thanks for commingfeedback!
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need a hacker, or have 2 character be ready to aid each other with hacking skills if that is their 2ndary position
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Unless their GM doesn't want to fool with the Matrix or something, yeah. You guys are gonna want someone that can hack (unless that's covered by your rigger and you just didn't mention it).
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I like the strong focus on defense, but you may need a Designated Hitter (DPS, as the kids like to say).
Any of those guys can do harm...but sometimes it is nice to have a straight-up killer in your corner.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Yeah, we like to roll safely, but like everyone knows that is never how things end.
The rigger guy has around 10-13 dice in hacking, so we have one. Just forgot to write it.
Like you say there, a true DPS :) monster is what we need. The mage can sling stuff, but it sucks if heīs downed.
The Break and enter girl can handle herself rather well in a fight, so can the rigger. The rigger will not enter the front very often though.
We agreed that every char should have atleast one skill that they can kill something with, but a pure fighter with loads of guns and swords and plastic could be useful when shit hits the fan.
Will it be beneficial to have more then one hacker char? Sure if one is downed but the hacker can work from outside and is never really on the lines either? Or am i wrong about this?
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You have 6 players already. That's my upper limit, personally.
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oohh, im not talking about adding players, just modifying the uses and purposes within the group.
But according to what you guys have said i think we will manage rather well.
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To be fair, anyone on the list can do a quite good job with the dps as well. It's not that hard to be a good combat character in SR. You need a decent attack roll (how big depends on the group, but I typically go with 10+ dice), 2-3 IPs, and enough defenses that you can survive (ideally barely standing if possible) a narrow long and short burst of AR fire.
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There's a big difference, though, between a good combat character and a dedicated combat build.
Any decent build in SR should be a good combat character. A decent dedicated combat build eats mooks like popcorn, though.
Depending on the style of your team and game, you might not need one...but it doesn't hurt to know someone.
"What about calling your friends?"
"Campa? Quino? They would destroy the city."
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love
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Of course, nonspecailized Shadow Runner's tend to be dead ones. Still, it's not a class based game, and I'd suggest almost every character be able to handle a few different jobs. (Of course, you are still likely to be really good at the skill you use to stay alive as a Shadowrunner)
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Of course, nonspecailized Shadow Runner's tend to be dead ones.
My experience is the exact opposite. Hyperspecialized characters tend to be dead weight except in their one area whereas a generalist is useful almost all the time. The rest of the team routinely ends up defending the hyperspecialized character unless the specialization is combat and if the specialization is combat, that character doesnt get used if everyone else does their job right. The only really specialized character I like on my teams is the hacker/technomancer because you need that for data jobs but anything else and specialization on a crazy level just makes them useless for anything else with beginning points.
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Mr. Lucky.
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Of course, nonspecailized Shadow Runner's tend to be dead ones.
My experience is the exact opposite. Hyperspecialized characters tend to be dead weight except in their one area whereas a generalist is useful almost all the time. The rest of the team routinely ends up defending the hyperspecialized character unless the specialization is combat and if the specialization is combat, that character doesnt get used if everyone else does their job right. The only really specialized character I like on my teams is the hacker/technomancer because you need that for data jobs but anything else and specialization on a crazy level just makes them useless for anything else with beginning points.
It somewhat depends on the campaign, but if you don't have specialists, you have a team of average people.
Which is more useful? Two characters with mediocre Face abilities, or one Face?
As was said earlier, it is fairly to make any build combat-capable. The specialist should only need defending if they are doing their job in the middle of a fight (assuming their job isn't fighting).
Yes, if you specialize, there will be times when you aren't in the spotlight, but the team as a whole will generally be much more capable, as they have a ton more dice to throw at any given problem.
- Jn -
Ifriti Sophist
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To me it depends on what else those people can do. Do I want two secondary faces who are also reasonable combatants, one is a half decent hacker or tech and the other has a nice sized truck and some first aid? I prefer having a team that can handle a situation in more than one manner and bring more than one awesome skill to the table. It just seems unrealistic that you have a guy who has 20 dice in sniper rifles and can't fight unarmed, never learned to drive, and doesnt know any military etiquette or recon skills. Where the hell does this guy come from? I know everyone tries to maximize their points but the characters I see really should come from somewhere and make sense holistically. How do you play a character that only knows three skills but knows them to world renowned levels? Where did he grow up that he doesnt know anything else?
Plus, lets be honest, if all somebody has is a hammer - say con or sniper rifles at 20 dice - then every problem he faces is a nail, subject to sniper rifles or con. It gets predictable, it gets boring for everyone and when it doesnt work they have nothing else to offer.
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The group ended up like this:
1 Break and enter infiltrator character. Much focus on talking her way out of harm and stealth.
1 Mage, focusing on manipulation magics and lots of languages for interpretation.
1 Dronerigger, focusing on his drones and a broad varity of Logic skills electronics/mechanics/hacker
1 Adept Face, hugh amounts of charisma powers and qualities, few other traits actually, very deadly with his mono-whip
1 Fighter, going Tank with cyberware and loads of armor. Few other traits
2 fully cyberd ork twins that love fighting and live as nomads. Killing,stealing, smuggling is their turf.
We usually get 5 players together when we play. Sometimes more/less.
So far the group kicks ass and handles the situations well. Since we know something about everything we know wich situations to buy our asses out of and which to handle ourself.
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To me it depends on what else those people can do. Do I want two secondary faces who are also reasonable combatants, one is a half decent hacker or tech and the other has a nice sized truck and some first aid?
This is operating under the assumption that a specialized character cannot be a reasonable combatant, or be a half-decent Decker or tech, or own a nice truck or first aid kit.
That's simply not the case. You can specialize in a role and still have points left to do other things.
I prefer having a team that can handle a situation in more than one manner and bring more than one awesome skill to the table. It just seems unrealistic that you have a guy who has 20 dice in sniper rifles and can't fight unarmed, never learned to drive, and doesnt know any military etiquette or recon skills. Where the hell does this guy come from? I know everyone tries to maximize their points but the characters I see really should come from somewhere and make sense holistically. How do you play a character that only knows three skills but knows them to world renowned levels? Where did he grow up that he doesnt know anything else?
A team will be able to apply more than one solution - a specialized team will be able to apply those solutions better.
Again - specializing doesn't mean you put 400BP into one thing. I have a combat specialist who has Knowledge Skills in military stuff - that's what Knowledge Skills are for...rounding out the things that your character is likely to have learned during their life to this point. If you build a Sniper who doesn't have any Stealth skills or other combat abilities, what exactly did you spent those 400BP on? Longarms 6 costs 60BP.
Also, there is synergy. My Street Merc doesn't have any driving skills, but he's augmented as all heck. He can drive better, without any skill points, than an unaugmented Indy car driver. Could he be a better driver if he diversified? Sure...but our team has a Rigger. 99% of the time, driving is the Rigger's job...when it's not, my guy has raw talent and skillwires.
Plus, lets be honest, if all somebody has is a hammer - say con or sniper rifles at 20 dice - then every problem he faces is a nail, subject to sniper rifles or con. It gets predictable, it gets boring for everyone and when it doesnt work they have nothing else to offer.
Which is why running the shadows is done by teams. If you're running solo, then sure...diversify. It will lead to a more colorful eulogy. But for the sane people who know that Shadowrunning is meant to be done by five or six people...if your 20D6 Sniper can't shoot the problem, he's got team mates who have other options available.
A team of specialists will always trump a team of generalists. The specialists will, collectively, be better at everything. The generalists will have a bunch of redundancies, none of which they are very talented at.
If you're putting your team together, and need a sniper (sniper is actually a bad example, as it's a secondary skill not even worth dedicating a build to - one of your dedicated combat specialists can do it as a side job), are you going to hire the sniper who can also hack/fast talk/drive but is only a mediocre shot? Or are you going to get the best damn sniper you can? Keep in mind, before you answer, that your team probably already has a Rigger, a Decker, and a Face...
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Generally the way our group does it is that everyone has a least one "major" which is some broad field they are an expert in (combat, hacking, facing, magic, etc) and then have "minors" that means they are good enough at a certain field that they can do it in a pinch and/or help out. In my experience most PCs have 1 major and 1 minor which is especially useful since we play a round robin game (thus the face might be the GM one game).
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When I build with 400 points I have trouble making a character who can reach 20 dice pools in something useful and the gear to support it and still have enough dice elsewhere to be a well rounded and believable character. You may have a different experience or a different set of criteria. I do agree that Shadowrunning is done by teams and synery is great but that doesnt change that humans grow holistically and should be realistic and diverse enough to warrant the background they are given.
Also, I disagree with your evaluation on generalist vs specialists. I will put my team of diverse generalists against your specialists any day. Changing the terms of engagement and taking on enemies where they are weak is what our team seems to be great at.
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Also, I disagree with your evaluation on generalist vs specialists. I will put my team of diverse generalists against your specialists any day. Changing the terms of engagement and taking on enemies where they are weak is what our team seems to be great at.
But that is tactics. A specialist team can play by that book to, so that is not really a reason not to have specialists with skills that supplement each other - high dicepools should beat average dicepools in most confrontations ;)
But a lot of a discussion like this comes down to play and GM style and if your group are having fun with the characters you have made, then you are doing it right ;D
Regards
Rasmus
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When I build with 400 points I have trouble making a character who can reach 20 dice pools in something useful and the gear to support it and still have enough dice elsewhere to be a well rounded and believable character. You may have a different experience or a different set of criteria. I do agree that Shadowrunning is done by teams and synery is great but that doesnt change that humans grow holistically and should be realistic and diverse enough to warrant the background they are given.
Also, I disagree with your evaluation on generalist vs specialists. I will put my team of diverse generalists against your specialists any day. Changing the terms of engagement and taking on enemies where they are weak is what our team seems to be great at.
You picked the number 20. I just said specialized. A specialized build doesn't mean throwing all your eggs in one basket, but instead selecting one role and excelling at it.
You are welcome to disagree...but where would a well-balanced team of specialists be weaker than a bunch of generalists? Again, it is a team...not an individual. The specialists, if they put their team together right, will be better at everything - they won't have to look for a weak spot, they can simply pick one.
Of course, play however you enjoy playing. If your entire team are generalists, your GM can tailor the game toward that. Chances are, he won't throw a team of specialists your way. Buy him pizza. ;)
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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No matter what your playing, a 20 dice pool is pretty huge. The idea that that is supposed to be standard for a starting character seems odd or a product of spending too much time with highly optimized groups.
Most characters tend to have an area of expertise, along with secondary talents that help define them and diversify their skills. I don't think I've made a starting character with a 20 dice pool in anything but Infiltration before, and that's cheating with a Chameleon suit.
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Hell, I am usually happy to have a couple of dice pools at 12 maybe with all gear and magic included. I have never had a dice pool of 20. I picked the number based on the missions cap and what I have seen people on these forums post. Considering an average attribute is 3 and the standard professional skill rating is 3 I am usually pretty happy to be double the average Joe in terms of skill an ability
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Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of mini-maxing, and I certainly have not fully optimized all of my characters - my mantra in anything Cyberpunk has always been "Style over Substance."
I'm just putting out there that a team that is built as a group, with each individual having a role, and each design choice based on furthering that role, will be the most effective.
I'm pretty sure our group's Tank could stomp a whole six-man team of characters that cap out at 12 dice...but this isn't a PvP-centric MMO. What's most important is that your group have fun with their team. Some tables start with ickle weefle newbies, scratching out a living in the gutter - having a highly specialized team of clockwork badassery hardly makes sense in that environment. Other teams (like our current group) are all down-on-their-luck professionals who've turned to Shadowrunning due to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...the GM made it clear that the opposition would be unforgiving, so our team is pretty tightly tuned.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Yeah these forums are skewing my sense of power and appropriateness to a certain degree. 12 to 14 dice seems to be the high end in our party. It is interesting to see where other players tend to fall out
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Yeah these forums are skewing my sense of power and appropriateness to a certain degree. 12 to 14 dice seems to be the high end in our party. It is interesting to see where other players tend to fall out
As long as your party is consistent, you're probably doing just fine. What I always worry about, with my GM hat on, is imbalance.
In this day of online games and forums where we can measure builds vs dozens of others, it's easy to start thinking of a character as impaired if it's not fully optimized, but if you're running on an even power curve with the rest of your table, you're good. At that point, your GM should be happily balancing your foes vs your group, without having to deal with wildly differing capabilities.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Mr. Lucky.
Ah, touche.
The DPSer can be the mage if he is willing. Just have him take Direct Spells. The rigger can dish the damage if he has multiple drones and does the remote control thing. Otherwise, yeah a sam/combat adept might be needed. Unless you run a combat light game?