Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Valnar on <09-21-11/1126:57>
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Alright, here is my newest character build up for people to evaluate:
Name: Winky
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Troll (Fomori)
Composure: 4
Judge Intentions: 6
Lift/Carry: 19 (135 kg/90 kg)
Memory: 4
Nuyen: 0
== Attributes ==
BOD: 10
AGI: 4
REA: 4 (7)
STR: 9
CHA: 2
INT: 4
LOG: 2
WIL: 2
EDG: 3
MAG: 6
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 6
Initiative: 8 (11)
IP: 1 (4)
Astral Initiative: 8
Astral IP: 3
Matrix Initiative: 7
Matrix IP: 1
Physical Damage Track: 13
Stun Damage Track: 9
== Active Skills ==
Dodge : 1 Pool: 8
Heavy Weapons : 4 [Machine Guns] Pool: 10 (12)
Infiltration : 1 Pool: 5
Perception : 1 Pool: 5
Unarmed Combat : 6 Pool: 13
== Knowledge Skills ==
== Contacts ==
Greece R.(Fixer) (5, 3)
== Qualities ==
Adept
Arcane Arrester
In Debt (20,000¥)
Metagenetic Improvement (BOD)
Restricted Gear (Rating 1)
Sensitive System
The Warrior's Way
Thermographic Vision
== Powers ==
Critical Strike Rating: 5 (way discount)
Improved Ability (Combat) (Unarmed Combat) Rating: 3
Improved Ability (Combat) (Heavy Weapons) Rating: 2
Improved Reflexes 3 (way discount + geas)
Killing Hands
== Armor ==
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit7/3
+Gel Packs
+Insulation 6
+Nonconductivity 3
+Thermal Damping 6
SecureTech Leg Casings 0/1
SecureTech Shin Guards 0/1
SecureTech Vitals Protector1/1
SWAT Armor 13/11 (for runs only)
+Biomonitor
+Fire Resistance 4
+Gel Packs
+Ruthenium Polymer Coating
SWAT Helmet 2/2
+Ruthenium Polymer Coating
+Flare Compensation
+Gas Mask
+Image Link
+Low Light
+Smartlink
Victory: Globetrotter Camouflage Jumpsuit 6/4 (for everyday wear)
+Gel Packs
+Ruthenium Polymer Coating
+Shock Frills
== Weapons ==
Ingram White Knight
+Smartgun System, External
+Stock
+Chameleon Coating
+Heavy Barrel
+Personalized Grip
DV: 6P AP: -1 RC: 7(8 )
Unarmed Attack
DV: 12P AP: - RC: 0
== Martial Arts ==
Muay Thai
++1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks
++1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks
Evasion
Full Offense
== Commlink ==
Novatech Airware (3, 3, 3, 3)
+Iris Orb
== Gear ==
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Light Machine Guns) x150
Ammo: Stick-n-Shock (Light Machine Guns) x100
Ammo: Tracer (Light Machine Guns) x50
Fake License (SWAT Armor) Rating 4
Fake License (Ingram White Knight) Rating 4
Fake License (Ruthenium) Rating 4
Fake License (Thermal Damp.) Rating 4
Fake License (Gel Packs) Rating 4
Fake SIN (Dimitri Patros) Rating 4
Goggles Rating 6
+Vision Magnification
+Vision Enhancement Rating 3
+Smartlink
+Image Link
Medkit Rating 6
Medkit Supplies x2
Created using the "Chummer" character creation tool.
Some comments:
I kinda feel like this build is getting pretty close to munchkinism, but there are some reasons for why I feel this is necessary.
The character is meant for a group with already existing, very experienced characters (50+ Karma, more like 100+ for most of them), which seems to be very combat oriented. The character I've been using in this group so far had to take some pretty serious damage and burn one point of edge on his first run (with an edge of 8, this was pretty massive damage karma wise) and I have a feeling, that he probably won't survive the next run, because he got a pretty nasty radiation wound on the last one that I won't have the time to heal between the runs.
If my character is about to die in the next run, I'll just refuse to burn another point of edge to safe him, because quite frankly the karma I'd need to get him up to his old self again would just be ridiculous.
So, since combat seems to be what the group does most and best, I decided to create a combat monster for my next character. Hence his very limited usability in any situation not combat related. Even if we end up doing non-combaty stuff somewhere along the line, by then I'll probably have purchased some more skills and improved existing ones somewhat.
I also purchased quite a few licenses with all of this, just to be safe. If there is some cheap equipment I forgot but which is pretty much essential, please tell me and I'll probably drop one or two of the licenses. I'm just really bad at remembering what kind of equipment you usually need for a run ;D
So yeah, please tell me if there is room for some more improvements.
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It sounds like you are interested in being super effective at combat, and that means I need to tell you that being an unaugmented adept is very much not the path towards that, and is in fact the path towards giving up all your other abilities in order to be mediocre at combat. I can recommend some slight tweaks to make him a bit better but for the most part, the biggest problem he has is being an unaugmented adept.
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I won't rekindle the augmented vs. unaugmented adept debate but I will point out that you left some power points on the table. Your Magic is 6 so you can apply discounts from The Warrior's Way to two more of your adept powers. Pending GM approval, you could also apply your geas and its discount to your other adept powers. Applying all the extra discounts could free up another 1.5 power points, just in case, you know, that 12P fist wasn't getting the job done.
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The thing with the way discount is that I want to use the last discount for a power that is only limited by my characters magic rating, because hopefully he will live to see things like a Magic rating of 9 eventually. I was thinking along the lines of Mystic Armor 9 with the way discount ;D
But you are probably right, maybe I'll try to get another geas or two (only one geas for multiple powers seems like cheating to me. sure, if you break it all of your powers will fail, but I think one geas is pretty easy to manage - easier than, I don't know, 4 different geasa).
As for damage, yeah, as you already noticed he can deal 12 damage unarmed, but this is probably not going to be used that often, therefore his also pretty high (although not ridiculously ginormous) Heavy Weapons dice pool.
The augmented/non-augmented debate: Afaik one of the things that are supposed to be expensive are those extra IPs, but I really feel like the way of the warrior changed that one up quite nicely. With the geas and the way I'm at 2 PP for the improved reflexes 3, that is 10 BP for every point of Magic and about one third of the way of the warrior quality, adding up to about 23 BP, which I think is ok.
Also, with all the armor I'm wearing I really don't have much money left to buy any 'ware. I could probably exchange the sensitive system for even more debt, but even that would yield a measly 10k. Maybe I'll try around with some changes like using a riot control suit instead of swat armor, which is cheaper and let's me invest the 5 BP of restricted gear into some more money...Yeah, maybe I could get some augmentation (like muscle toner/augmentation) in there. I'll look into it.
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The long and short of it is this: Ways and gaesa make augmented adepts even more better than unaugmented ones, because it lets you discount the big expensive powers down and then you start looking at the overpriced options.
The simple way to make this guy better by augmenting him is going to be Ceramic Bone Lacing + Muscle Toner/Augmentation. Take a look at my sig and check the Martial Artist for an example - he's not using metavariants, Ways, martial arts, or Gaesa, and is trying to also be a face, but you can probably steal some ideas.
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Why ceramic instead of aluminum? I was wondering that when I looked at the character
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I really don't see how the build would benefit from bone lacing. some minor armor improvements imho don't justify the loss of almost one point of essence. Also, I actually like the ability to do stun damage if I choose so.
Muscle Toner/Augmentation is indeed kinda nice, I already made one version of the character using both after you suggested it. What it comes down to is: I have to take a geas for 3 additional powers and get 1 strength and 2 agility out of it. Still thinking about whether or not it is worth it though, because quite frankly, flavor wise I'd prefer keeping the character unaugmented Power is important, but I still want to have a character that I like and that I'll have fun playing. So far I'm not quite convinced an augmented adept is what I want. I am glad I tried augmenting him though, because that way I can go up to my GM and be like "this is the character I want to play next. He rolls 19 dice with his machine gun and 14 dice on unarmed attacks dealing 12 damage." "That is total cheese. I won't allow it" "Oh well, how about this older and weaker version then? It has 2 agility and 1 strength less, and therefore somewhat smaller dice pools..." "...Well, that's better I guess. I still don't really like it, but you may play him like that." *does little dance of victory in his head and plays the character he wants to play*
Of course, in my head everything always works out way better than it does in reality, so yeah... xD
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Why ceramic instead of aluminum? I was wondering that when I looked at the character
MAD scanners.
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I really don't see how the build would benefit from bone lacing. some minor armor improvements imho don't justify the loss of almost one point of essence. Also, I actually like the ability to do stun damage if I choose so.
Muscle Toner/Augmentation is indeed kinda nice, I already made one version of the character using both after you suggested it. What it comes down to is: I have to take a geas for 3 additional powers and get 1 strength and 2 agility out of it. Still thinking about whether or not it is worth it though, because quite frankly, flavor wise I'd prefer keeping the character unaugmented Power is important, but I still want to have a character that I like and that I'll have fun playing. So far I'm not quite convinced an augmented adept is what I want. I am glad I tried augmenting him though, because that way I can go up to my GM and be like "this is the character I want to play next. He rolls 19 dice with his machine gun and 14 dice on unarmed attacks dealing 12 damage." "That is total cheese. I won't allow it" "Oh well, how about this older and weaker version then? It has 2 agility and 1 strength less, and therefore somewhat smaller dice pools..." "...Well, that's better I guess. I still don't really like it, but you may play him like that." *does little dance of victory in his head and plays the character he wants to play*
Of course, in my head everything always works out way better than it does in reality, so yeah... xD
If you want to play an unaugmented adept for flavour reasons, do it, but it sounded like you were concerned about keeping up with the Joneses which is why I brought it up.
Bone Lacing is good because it is one of the few cyberware options that really helps unarmed adepts, and you halve the lower of bio or cyber. So even though ceramic bone lacing is 1.2 essence, you can also have 1.4 essence of bioware so it is really only occupying .6 essence - less if you get higher grade, which is easy because it is cheap.
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This build could be a lot worse, but it is already way more than it needs to be to be an effective shadowrunner in any game I have played in. Sure, there are stronger builds, but this guy is specialized enough if you ask me. So...either you have some combat MONSTERS to compete with, or your old character was seriously weak compared to what he could be.
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@Umaro: I AM concerned about doing good in combat, but I still don't see why that means I absolutely have to get augmented. I just think there is a difference between "doing good" and "going out of your way to roll 2 dice more on some tests". Getting bone lacing just because it is cyberware that kinda somewhat helps a little isn't really what I had in mind for the character. Sure, I get to cut the essence cost in half, but I don't really see why that should be an incentive to put some marginally useful ware into my adept.
Also, the build you have in mind pretty much aims for an essence loss of 2, whereas my build barely works with only one essence lost.
I'm really grateful for your advice, and I'm sure it will come in handy, even if it's just to convince my GM that my current build really isn't crossing the line too much. However, I think I'd have to change too much of that character to really get some serious use out of augmentation, and I don't really want to do that. So, I'm going to rephrase my request, since I obviously worded it poorly in the OP:
Please help me improve the character with some minor tweaks and help me if I happened to have forgotten some essential gear.
@Mason: Well, my old character is (probably soon will be was xD) a pure edge monster street sam. The thing is that even with the GM granting me 50 karma and 500k Nuyen additionally to start with I did very poorly. Part of that is because I'm lacking experience as a player, especially when it comes to sams. Another part of the problem is, that my current character was created with style in mind, not power. Of course it is cool to go into combat dual wielding Super Warhawks. But when you fight against 2 helicopters full of special forces...yeah, that doesn't really cut it. And the absolute weakness of my edge sam is dying, because burning edge means burning 30+ karma. All that added up and now I'm probably going to need a new and improved character soon. Hence this "semi power build"
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OK, I just wanted to make sure you were committed to pure adept before I started getting into too many details.
You cannot license an Ingram White Knight, it is Forbidden.
I do not think paying the BP to start with SWAT armor is worth it, especially on an adept who will quickly run out of useful things to get with money. Get some not-quite-as-good armor for now and buy that later.
You should have Improved Physical Attribute: Agility; you could (for example) drop 1 level of Improved Ability Unarmed and Improved Ability Heavy Weapons for it, and come out ahead.
Willpower 2 is asking for it, IMO. For one thing, with the level of armor you'll have, you will usually take Stun, not Physical. For another, Arcane Arrester does jack to protect you against spells like Control Actions that don't have force-based effects, or against spirit powers like Fear. I would have 3 at a minimum and would shoot for more.
Half-assed active defenses aren't worth it, and if you already have Unarmed you might as well get Gymnastics instead of Dodge - and I would try to get more of it. Giving up an action for an entire extra dice to your defenses is for silly.
The ArmTech MGL-6 is a pistol-sized grenade launcher that you would probably find lots of uses for.
In the long run, the Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle is a very useful weapon (check the arsenal errata for why). You can't start with it though, but just an FYI.
Full Offence is not a bad maneuver. Evasion is a very bad maneuver. Finishing Move and Kick Attack are both very good maneuvers that you should have.
I would not expect your GM to let you stack multiple gel packs like that but YMMV.
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Great, thank you very much, I'll see what of this I'm going to realize.
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So what I ended up doing:
Got rid of the White Knight License (that was a really stupid mistake xD)
Got Improved Agility as you suggested
Got Kick Attack instead of Evasion
However, everything else I decided to keep as it is for now. Knowing my GM getting the SWAT Armor after character creation is going to be a real pain in the a**, so I'm keeping it for now.
Concerning WIL, I'm thinking about dumping 1 point of CHA and LOG each to get to WIL 4, and then I'd probably buy CHA and LOG to 2 first thing when I get enough karma. Not too sure about this though...
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Willpower 2 is asking for it, IMO. For one thing, with the level of armor you'll have, you will usually take Stun, not Physical. For another, Arcane Arrester does jack to protect you against spells like Control Actions that don't have force-based effects, or against spirit powers like Fear. I would have 3 at a minimum and would shoot for more.
Force determines the frequency of rolling and the maximum number of hits. If the mage casts a big bad Force 5 Control Actions, he can still resist it.
However, i also would recommend a higher Willpower and maybe some levels of Spell Resistance after you start initiating.
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What if I took 2 levels of "Iron Will" instead of raising WIL, do you think that would suffice?
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I'd rather have willpower, but Iron Will isn't bad, depending on what your GM thinks it applies to. Spellswise it is clear, critter power wise? Certainly it works on Influence and Compulsion. What about Fear? Confusion? Etc.
Normally I don't like it because it does jack to stop Stunbolt, but since you're a fomori that's more forgivable. I wouldn't have less than 3 will in any case, if for no other reason than the stun box.
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Iron Will is a niche power. Willpower helps against critter powers, social skills such as intimidation, and some magical attacks. A Willpower of 3 would also, as has been pointed out, give you an extra point on your stun modifier (relatively significant for a troll whose armor will turn a lot of damage into stun damage). As nice a stat as Intuition is, I would consider biting the bullet and lowering it by one, to raise Willpower by one.
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Meh, I guess you are right. INT 3 is good enough for the time being, I guess. I also decided not to overdo it with the geasa, because I want the build to be powerful but not ridiculous. Also, after reading this:
The funniest part was when the group's two heavies realized that, thanks to their subdermal armor, they couldn't possibly hurt each other with these tiny pistols: as long as they were loaded with hollowpoints (which treat armor as twice its SP value), there could be no possible penetration, even to the head.
It soon became common practice, whenever they got in an argument, to draw these pistols and shoot each other in the legs just to emphasize their points: the equivalent of flicking someone in the chest with your fingers, except that it makes bystanders scream and dive for cover.
on the rpg.net forums, I decided it was totally hilarious and gave my Character the FN 5-7C and frangible rounds for teh lulz ;D Any more ideas how I can make it even weaker while keeping it loud and with non-lame ammo (no gel rounds)?
Anyway this is how it looks now:
Street Name: Winky
Name: Winky
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Troll (Fomori)
Composure: 5
Judge Intentions: 5
Lift/Carry: 19 (135 kg/90 kg)
Memory: 5
Nuyen: 0
== Attributes ==
BOD: 10
AGI: 4 (5)
REA: 4 (7)
STR: 9
CHA: 2
INT: 3
LOG: 2
WIL: 3
EDG: 3
MAG: 6
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 6
Initiative: 7 (10)
IP: 1 (4)
Astral Initiative: 6
Astral IP: 3
Matrix Initiative: 6
Matrix IP: 1
Physical Damage Track: 13
Stun Damage Track: 10
== Active Skills ==
Heavy Weapons : 5 [Machine Guns] Pool: 12 (14)
Infiltration : 1 Pool: 6
Perception : 1 [Visual] Pool: 4 (6)
Unarmed Combat : 5 [Martial Arts] Pool: 12 (14)
== Knowledge Skills ==
== Contacts ==
Greece R.(Fixer) (5, 3)
== Qualities ==
Adept
Arcane Arrester
In Debt (20,000¥)
Metagenetic Improvement (BOD)
Restricted Gear (Rating 1)
Sensitive System
The Warrior's Way
Thermographic Vision
== Powers ==
Critical Strike Rating: 6
Improved Ability (Combat) (Unarmed Combat) Rating: 2
Improved Ability (Combat) (Heavy Weapons) Rating: 2
Improved Physical Attribute (AGI) Rating: 1
Improved Reflexes 3
Killing Hands
== Armor ==
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit7/3
+Gel Packs
+Insulation 6
+Nonconductivity 3
+Thermal Damping 6
SecureTech Leg Casings 0/1
SecureTech Shin Guards 0/1
SecureTech Vitals Protector1/1
SWAT Armor 13/11
+Biomonitor
+Fire Resistance 4
+Gel Packs
+Ruthenium Polymer Coating
SWAT Helmet 2/2
+Ruthenium Polymer Coating
+Flare Compensation
+Gas Mask
+Image Link
+Low Light
+Smartlink
Victory: Globetrotter Camouflage Jumpsuit6/4
+Gel Packs
+Ruthenium Polymer Coating
+Shock Frills
== Weapons ==
FN 5-7C
DV: 4P AP: - RC: 1
Ingram White Knight
+Smartgun System, External
+Stock
+Chameleon Coating
+Heavy Barrel
+Personalized Grip
DV: 6P AP: -1 RC: 7(8 )
Unarmed Attack
DV: 13P AP: - RC: 0
== Martial Arts ==
Muay Thai
++1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks
++1 DV on Unarmed Combat attacks
Full Offense
Kick Attack
== Commlink ==
Novatech Airware (3, 3, 3, 3)
+Iris Orb
== Gear ==
Ammo: Frangible Rounds (Machine Pistols) x20
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Light Machine Guns) x150
Ammo: Stick-n-Shock (Light Machine Guns) x100
Ammo: Tracer (Light Machine Guns) x50
Fake License (SWAR armor) Rating 4
Fake License (Ruthenium) Rating 4
Fake License (Gel packs) Rating 4
Fake SIN (Dimitri Patros) Rating 4
Goggles Rating 6
+Vision Magnification
+Vision Enhancement Rating 3
+Smartlink
+Image Link
Medkit Rating 6
Medkit Supplies x2
Not that much more powerful than my original build, but somewhat more likable imo. So, thanks again for all the advice so far ;D