Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Wilhelm R. on <10-04-11/1159:45>
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I'm new to running 4th Edition, and so are my players. We are all using Chummer to expedite character creation, and I'm wondering if anyone else has problems with starting characters at 400bp having insane dice rolls... or if I'm even missing something that invalidates these chars. The team face has a negotiation dice pool of 19 (21 for Diplomacy), and the hacker has a 16/18 for hacking/exploit. The hacker isn't much of a problem since he's pretty much a crippled old man in a hospital, so one slip up and he's toast, and the player knows this, but I just wanna make sure everything here is legit, since we are all working with 4e for our first time, relying a lot on Chummer to calculate most of the stuff.
It checks them both out as fully legal, but really I'm having trouble balancing things. The team mage and gunner are both fine, with their highest pools being 10-12, but they've been able to talk and hack their way through anything that I can put out there so far, without incident.
Heres the face's info for those interested.
== Info ==
Street Name: Esper
Name: Darien Rayne
Karma: 12
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Elf
Composure: 10
Judge Intentions: 12
Lift/Carry: 5 (30 kg/20 kg)
Memory: 7
Nuyen: 1900
== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 3
REA: 3 (4)
STR: 2
CHA: 7
INT: 5
LOG: 4
WIL: 3
EDG: 1
MAG: 5
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 6
Initiative: 8 (9)
IP: 1 (2)
Astral Initiative: 10
Astral IP: 3
Matrix Initiative: 7
Matrix IP: 1
Physical Damage Track: 10
Stun Damage Track: 10
== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling : 0 Pool: 4
Animal Training : 0 Pool: 4
Archery : 0 Pool: 2
Armorer : 0 Pool: 3
Artisan : 0 Pool: 4
Automatics : 0 Pool: 2
Blades : 0 Pool: 2
Climbing : 0 Pool: 1
Clubs : 0 Pool: 2
Computer : 0 Pool: 3
Con : 3 [Fast Talk] Pool: 14 (16)
Cybercombat : 0 Pool: 3
Data Search : 1 Pool: 5
Demolitions : 0 Pool: 3
Disguise : 0 Pool: 4
Diving : 0 Pool: 2
Dodge : 1 Pool: 5
Escape Artist : 0 Pool: 2
Etiquette : 3 Pool: 13
First Aid : 0 Pool: 3
Flight : 0 Pool: 1
Forgery : 0 Pool: 2
Gunnery : 0 Pool: 2
Gymnastics : 0 Pool: 2
Hacking : 0 Pool: 3
Heavy Weapons : 0 Pool: 2
Infiltration : 2 Pool: 6
Instruction : 0 Pool: 6
Intimidation : 1 Pool: 11
Leadership : 1 Pool: 11
Locksmith : 0 Pool: 2
Longarms : 0 Pool: 2
Navigation : 0 Pool: 4
Negotiation : 6 [Diplomacy] Pool: 19 (21)
Palming : 0 Pool: 2
Parachuting : 0 Pool: 2
Perception : 1 [Visual] Pool: 6 (8)
Pilot Ground Craft : 2 [Hovercraft] Pool: 6 (8)
Pilot Watercraft : 0 Pool: 3
Pistols : 3 [Semi-Automatics] Pool: 6 (8)
Riding : 0 Pool: 3
Running : 0 Pool: 1
Shadowing : 0 Pool: 4
Survival : 0 Pool: 2
Swimming : 0 Pool: 1
Throwing Weapons : 0 Pool: 2
Tracking : 0 Pool: 4
Unarmed Combat : 0 Pool: 2
== Knowledge Skills ==
Business : 2 Pool: 6
Data Havens : 5 Pool: 10
English : N Pool: 0
Gangs : 2 Pool: 7
Ghost Cartels : 2 Pool: 7
Mafia : 2 Pool: 7
Military : 2 Pool: 6
News : 5 Pool: 9
Shadow Community : 4 Pool: 9
Spanish : 1 Pool: 6
Sperethiel : 2 Pool: 7
Underworld : 2 Pool: 7
== Contacts ==
Arms Dealer (3, 3)
Bartender (2, 2)
Fixer (6, 6)
Hacker (6, 6)
Informant (2, 1)
Knight Errant (4, 6)
== Qualities ==
Adept
Day Job (10 hrs/week)
Human-Looking
In Debt (5,000¥)
Low-Light Vision
Sensitive Neural Structure
Sensitive System
SINner (Standard) (Darien Rayne)
The Speaker's Way
== Powers ==
Eidetic Sense Memory
Improved Ability (Non-Combat) (Negotiation) Rating: 3
Improved Ability (Non-Combat) (Infiltration) Rating: 1
Improved Ability (Non-Combat) (Con) Rating: 1
Improved Reflexes 1
Kinesics Rating: 3
Linguistics
Multi-Tasking
== Armor ==
Berwick businesswear (Mortimer of London)0/0
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
+YNT SoftWeave
Lined Coat 6/4
+YNT SoftWeave
Mortimer of London: Greatcoat Line6/5
+YNT SoftWeave
SecureTech Helmet 0/2
== Weapons ==
Savalette Guardian
+Extended Clip
+Personalized Grip
+Smartgun System
+Underbarrel Weight
DV: 5P AP: -1 RC: 3
Unarmed Attack
DV: 1S AP: - RC: 0
== Commlink ==
Renraku Sensei (2, 4, 3, 4)
+Novatech Navi
+Suite: Pro User [Analyze 4, Browse 4, Command 2, Edit 4]
== Gear ==
Ammo: Explosive Rounds (Heavy Pistols) x100
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Heavy Pistols) x110
Certified Credstick, Ebony
Datachip x10
Fake License (Firearms) Rating 4
Fake License (Vehicular) Rating 4
Fake License (Upgrades to the glasses) Rating 4
Fake SIN (Derek Blackstone) Rating 4
Glasses Rating 4
+Smartlink
+Flare Compensation
+Image Link
+Thermographic
Respirator Rating 6
== Vehicles ==
Rover 2068 (SUV)
+Amenities, High
+Anti-Theft
+Clean Car Coating
+Engine Customization, Speed
+Extra Entry/Exit Points
+Gun Port
+Hovercraft Upgrade, Rebuild
+Metahuman Adjustment, Troll
+Off-Road Suspension
+Passenger Protection (Rating 2) Rating 2
+Vehicle Sensor
Again, I may just be running things wrong, which is why I come to you all.
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Build point systems with lots of gear/magic/augmentation options are prone to this sort of thing, it's just the nature of the game. Your players aren't doing anything wrong by finding cool stuff and wanting to take it, but you also aren't doing anything wrong as a GM by wanting to establish some gentleman's-agreement style parameters at character creation, to suit the power level of the campaign.
If you want him to have a little smaller pool, talk to 'em about having a little smaller pool. ~20 isn't anywhere near the top a dedicated Pornomancer (magically-boosted Face) can get, sadly, if they choose to stack their character that way. Your best bet is to just have a chat with him, let him know you want him to stay true to the concept, but wish he'd tone it down a little bit to make it easier for a new GM to present social challenges. Likewise, with anyone else that you think is specializing a little too much, and threatening the power level you have in mind for the game.
Problem solved.
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Right.
No, if everything adds up correctly that way I'm more than happy to allow it, and can find ways to make the pieces fit, I'm just unfamiliar with the current breed of adepts to know if something was awry or not. Thanks for your input!
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Oh, this guy is nothing. he doesn't even have Tailored Pheromones or a Pheromone Recpetor, and he hasn't capped CHA or used Improved Ability on every socila skill, and I don't see any emotitoys or anything. A super specced-out Face can get a dice pool of ~30 in all situations, and ~50 for a single action, like seduction.
That is not to say that the player isn't quite obvious in speccing out his face as much as possible...But throw a real social ninja at him with ~40 dice and see how he handles THAT!
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Oh, this guy is nothing. he doesn't even have Tailored Pheromones or a Pheromone Recpetor, and he hasn't capped CHA or used Improved Ability on every socila skill, and I don't see any emotitoys or anything. A super specced-out Face can get a dice pool of ~30 in all situations, and ~50 for a single action, like seduction.
That is not to say that the player isn't quite obvious in speccing out his face as much as possible...But throw a real social ninja at him with ~40 dice and see how he handles THAT!
Well, I do think emotitoys are fairly cheesy, so I don't see an issue with not taking that.
There is one major rules issue I am seeing on this, and I'm not sure how its been clarified.
He takes Softweave as an upgrade to form fitted body armour, as well as his normal "surface" armour. Has it been clarified that this can apply twice, or is this "double dipping"?
As a GM, I do dislike seeing sensitive system/sensitive neural structure on such a character (at least neural structure has a decrease in BP value for non hackers). Sensitive system strikes me as giving far too much BP to adepts/magicians/technomancers, for a negative quality that may very well never affect the character in the long run.
The character appears to be highly distinctive (hovercraft, SIN, in debt, day job), but has very little use during the "go dynamic" section of the run. If this guy gets spotted, hes pretty much out. He would be arrested pretty much the first time a camera catches his face. Or his vehicle.
The lack of edge certainly hurts, but is his decision to make. A character like this would only have about 3 rolls to make a session, so why not get that edge a bit higher.
I mean, if the player is fine with doing nothing half the time, more power to him, but he is basically going to do nothing half the time, unless he tries to infiltrate an organization, or provide a more "on the fly" form of face-ing. But eventually, hes going to fail one of those checks, and at that point, all he has is a bit of armour, and a low body score before he is down and out.
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Also aren't there "social moddiferies" that would allow him to chip down the guys dice pool a bit if he puts the Face in the right situation? I mean the Face would probably excell still but would be cut down just a little bit.
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The team face has a negotiation dice pool of 19 (21 for Diplomacy),
but the face is a notorious min-maxer with more eyes on how to munchkin the character than how to build an interesting runner.
The Faces character seems to sheck out just fine and isn't really even Min-Maxed that much(if at all), a Min-Maxed Face can get 50+ dice at chargen.
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Frankly the mage and gun bunny probably just need help making their characters. Add a focus, mentor spirit and specialization and that's +6-8 dice for the mage. And for firearms there's a lot of agility nonsense to go with the 6 skill, and of course specialization and smart gun. The easiest way being a cyberarm for instant capped agility. Something like 18 dice in your area of specialization really isn't that crazy.
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Honestly, I'd say that 10 to 12 in a dice pool is reasonable, with higher levels tending to warp the game a bit.
That said, this can be ok for a face. His highly specialized nature means that while he can dominate social encounters he won't outshine anyone in combat or investigative encounters. I'd say he should be ok for your game talrave, while a better Face then a street level, non optimized group would generally have it shouldn't break things.
In any case, I'd say your min-maxer wanted to be helpful to the group. He's an elf with metahuman adjustment (troll) on his ride and, after all, playing a face. Let him shine in social encounters and when he can find a way to use the massive social abilities, but don't let him dominate the game.
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19/21 dice is great for negotiations, but remember that the numbers are significantly lower (still serviceable) for skills such as etiquette, con, etc. So he isn't really a super-face, just a super haggler. And negotiation is the least subjective, least potentially broken of the social skills. The character gets gear faster and cheaper, and gets (very likely) the best possible offer on the job for the team. And... that's it. It's a lot harder deciding what a good con, intimidate, or etiquette roll does, usually.
Other than that, the character looks fine. No lopsidedness where half of the Attributes are 1's, or skills outside of social ones are completely missing. And he has the other things he needs to be a face - data search ability, lots of contacts, and even a vehicle for the whole group to ride in. He looks like a team player, rather than a prima donna, type of character.
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... 7 Charisma, 6 skill (+2 concentration), +3 adept power ... 16/18. Where am I missing 3 more dice, again? Clearly I have not delved into all dimensions of hacking the game system.
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... 7 Charisma, 6 skill (+2 concentration), +3 adept power ... 16/18. Where am I missing 3 more dice, again? Clearly I have not delved into all dimensions of hacking the game system.
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Kinesics rating 3 gives +3 to all social skills.
And i agree with the comment that the sammy and mage might need some help with building their characters, as really it's their dice pools that are just small.
Really i'm pretty sure i could make a face with equal pools to your "min-maxers", who also have better pools for combat then that sammy and doing the same for mage/face would be even easier.
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As has been pointed out already, after the pay is finalized, this guy is not much of an asset. 6 dice to sneak and 8 dice to shoot isn't going to get him much play time. At least he has 2 IPs..
What you need to look at, as a GM, is the contacts. There are like 3-4 guys with max loyalty connection or both. That's some pretty serious stuff.
"He has Lofyr's number on speed dial, and would die to protect negotiation guy... This guy can drop Thor shots on demand, and would do anything negotiation guy asks without question." It's a bit much.
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As has been pointed out already, after the pay is finalized, this guy is not much of an asset. 6 dice to sneak and 8 dice to shoot isn't going to get him much play time. At least he has 2 IPs..
What you need to look at, as a GM, is the contacts. There are like 3-4 guys with max loyalty connection or both. That's some pretty serious stuff.
"He has Lofyr's number on speed dial, and would die to protect negotiation guy... This guy can drop Thor shots on demand, and would do anything negotiation guy asks without question." It's a bit much.
I noticed this as well though in my games thus far we've only allowed up to connection 4's and loyalties can be anywhere from 1-6 but we don't want a billion 6's. XD
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For the contacts, I think this guy, being a new player, rationalized that the "important" contacts needed big numbers on them. High loyalty is always useful, but the connection ratings are a bit high. A fixer really only needs connection: 4, or connection: 5 if you want an especially good one. But honestly, I can't think of too many reasons you would need a fixer with international ties. With the hacker, it's even more wasted. You usually hire a hacker for what he can do, not who he knows. I guess I could see it if the player envisions someone like a Jackpoint moderator or other influential type - but I don't know if the face really needs to know someone that connected to the hacker subculture.
Honestly, even for loyalty, I am wary of 5 and 6 ratings. Because at that level, it is generally expected to be mutual. Someone threatening your best buddy fixer? Your blood brother Cascade Ork smuggler in jail for a crime he didn't commit? Guess who they're going to call.
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The problem with Min-Max is that his pants have fallen down. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/09232011/)
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The problem with Min-Max is that his pants have fallen down. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/09232011/)
+1
Even with pants down... Minmax Charisma is AWESOME.
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Ghostbusters?
GMs, remember that someone with Connection 6 is not going to be Lofwyr, Damien Knight, Richard Villiers, or Buttercup -- or even Miles Lanier or Roger Soaring-Owl. For those, you should need to purchase things normally restricted to group contacts -- Matrix access, magical access, even numbers to indicate how many people can jump when they blow the whistle. What you should especially hit them up on is the 'Area of Influence'; +4 (National Level) at least, +6 (Global) if they're wanting to snag a real mover and shaker. So if they want Lofwyr as a close personal friend who'd do anything for them, make them wind up spending at LEAST 33 points for him -- if not more, all things considered.
My personal house mod to the contact game has the cost being (Connection ^ 1.25) * (Loyalty ^ 1.1). A Connection/Loyalty 6/1 Friend for Life dock worker will cost you 7 points (+1 for going from 5 to 6), but a Connection/Loyalty 1/6 Just Biz major mob boss is going to cost you 9, because of his reach and influence. A 6/6 Friend for Life mob boss will be a 63-point sink for you -- but on the other hand, this is the guy you can go to for almost anything and probably get it.
I'd also make sure the characters get some amount of free contacts -- Charisma times the highest of Negotiation or Etiquette, perhaps, with a minimum of their Charisma unless they've been Burned. The elven face character (CHA 7, Negotiation 5) will be able to afford 35 points worth of contacts -- a Connection/Loyalty 4/3 contact and a couple of 4/2 contacts, perhaps -- while even a troll thug will get a point or two break.
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Never underestimate the power of a Connection 1 character, however. They only have themselves, but they can be experts in their field that aren't recognized. Or are anti-social to the point of nearly being hermits.
Buddy from 2XS is an excellent example of one. I can think of a few other folks that are the same way.
*Sighs* Possibly even myself. 'Course, what kind of use would I be?
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One thing that stops min/maxing out of control is the rule of 20 (also make sure the situational bonus fall under the cap) Also have them use the karma-gen system. It generally makes well rounded characters because the best points efficiency is in a lot of lower level skills. Also i would not allow any character to start the game with a attribute of 1. Also focus of the Roleplaying side of the characters and less on the mechanics, it will give you a better game and less lop-sided or one dimensional characters.
Almost every game i have been in doesn't allow emo-toys for the reason that they tend to destroy the game.
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One thing that stops min/maxing out of control is the rule of 20 (also make sure the situational bonus fall under the cap) Also have them use the karma-gen system. It generally makes well rounded characters because the best points efficiency is in a lot of lower level skills. Also i would not allow any character to start the game with a attribute of 1. Also focus of the Roleplaying side of the characters and less on the mechanics, it will give you a better game and less lop-sided or one dimensional characters.
Almost every game i have been in doesn't allow emo-toys for the reason that they tend to destroy the game.
See, I don't get that (about emo-toys). If they're common then Mr. Johnson brings his, too.
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the dice modifiers for emotoys are way out of proportion to the relevant skills, that they quickly become unbalancing. They are better left out of the game. Also they just way too cheezy for my taste.
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the dice modifiers for emotoys are way out of proportion the the relevant skills that they quickly become unbalancing. They are better left out of the game. Also they just way too cheezy for my taste.
I've heard this line repeated so many times... what the hell are Emotitoys?!?! and what makes them cheesey?
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the dice modifiers for emotoys are way out of proportion the the relevant skills that they quickly become unbalancing. They are better left out of the game. Also they just way too cheezy for my taste.
I've heard this line repeated so many times... what the hell are Emotitoys?!?! and what makes them cheesey?
AR has cheap immobile sensor "drones" that run emotion-soft. They can add R [1-6] to your social dice.
As a rule the complaints I see are because runners have them but nobody else does. A secondary level happens when Mr. Johnson brings one but the face didn't.
They're really, really inexpensive compared to what buying the software and putting it in your commlink might cost.
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the dice modifiers for emotoys are way out of proportion the the relevant skills that they quickly become unbalancing. They are better left out of the game. Also they just way too cheezy for my taste.
I've heard this line repeated so many times... what the hell are Emotitoys?!?! and what makes them cheesey?
AR has cheap immobile sensor "drones" that run emotion-soft. They can add R [1-6] to your social dice.
As a rule the complaints I see are because runners have them but nobody else does. A secondary level happens when Mr. Johnson brings one but the face didn't.
They're really, really inexpensive compared to what buying the software and putting it in your commlink might cost.
The programs should as expensive or more so per rating than tacnet. The cheap cost and relative power of the stuff makes them too much of a game imbalancer.
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To put it into perspective, rating: 6 empathy software is double the power of glamour, maximum-rated kinesics, or maximum-rated tailored pheromones. It is pointless dice pool inflation, in an area where there are already multiple stacking dice pool modifiers.
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To put it into perspective, rating: 6 empathy software is double the power of glamour, maximum-rated kinesics, or maximum-rated tailored pheromones. It is pointless dice pool inflation, in an area where there are already multiple stacking dice pool modifiers.
thanks for the back up on this.
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In my game, Empathy Software adds the dice to social resistance tests only.
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Ah i see. Are they restricted or Forbidden at all?
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not that I know of.
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Ah i see. Are they restricted or Forbidden at all?
That's the most frightening part. These things are labeled as children's toys.
Neither the software nor the toy are restricted.
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*Cough*Lawn Darts*Cough*
"OK, you go be the goalie while I throw it!"
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*Cough*Lawn Darts*Cough*
"OK, you go be the goalie while I throw it!"
Ahh... a child of the 80s.
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The programs should as expensive or more so per rating than tacnet. The cheap cost and relative power of the stuff makes them too much of a game imbalancer.
I wouldn't have a problem with a smartlink analogue for social tests.
*new* Emosoft is R4 software, costs 2000 nuyen and is availability 10r. It provides +2 dice to any social test where there is a camera able to record the face of the target.
Speaking of cameras, Mr. J doesn't like cameras.
Camera Burner
To determine if the burner detects a camera, make
a Device Rating (Burner) x 2 (2) Test. Visibility modifi ers
apply, and micro-sized cameras increase the threshold by
1. The device also uses its rating x 2 as the skill in attacking
sensors of drones in a Called Shot Test. On a successful hit,
the camera is destroyed. Cameras with fl are compensation
may make a Device Rating (Camera) x 2 (2) Test to resist the
damage and remain functional.
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Do the Emotitoys include the cost of the Empathy Software, or is that additional?
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They include the cost and apparently have the processing power to run R6 sensor softs...
HAHAHA, THERE'S ME PRETENDING THAT SENSOR SOFTS USE THE EXISTING SOFTWARE RULES AND AREN'T JUST HORRIBLY SHOEHORNED IN.
Sorry.. we shouldn't talk about emotitoys...
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They include the cost and apparently have the processing power to run R6 sensor softs...
HAHAHA, THERE'S ME PRETENDING THAT SENSOR SOFTS USE THE EXISTING SOFTWARE RULES AND AREN'T JUST HORRIBLY SHOEHORNED IN.
Sorry.. we shouldn't talk about emotitoys...
Yeah, that's all kinds of messed up.
I'd go with the Social Smartlink option that you suggested everyday of the week, and forget this malarkey from Arsenal...
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IMO, the empathy softwarre isn't that unbalanced, as it does require a much more powerful commlink then a face would normally have if you want to get a higher rating soft.
As for the emotitoy, there aren't actually any rules in the game that allow the owner of one to get the benefits of the empathy software for them self.
That kinda like claiming that you can get +4 to all your combat rolls, just because you own a drone that happens to be a member of a rating 4 tac-net.
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*Cough*Lawn Darts*Cough*
"OK, you go be the goalie while I throw it!"
Ahh... a child of the 80s.
80's? we were playing that in the '70s. It didn't get banned till the '80s.
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And can still be found in garage sales today.