Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: ultimateseahawk on <10-05-11/1223:16>
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I play with a group that hops between SR and D&D.
I prefer SR but one thing D&D has that SR does not is a really detailed character progression system with it's leveling.
SR falls short in this regard, in my opinion.
I'm wondering if any of you experienced GMs have any little tweaks you've added beyond nuyen and karma to, for lack of a better term, reward or motivate players in game? Stuff beyond the books that you've developed over time.
Thanks
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Free knowledge skills, more contacts, favors owed, etc.
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Well I'm not quite sure what you mean. The kinda point of SR is to be open ended. Hell if you play long enough or your into throwing loads of EXP/Karma the way of the character's it not that hard to "level up" per say.
I remember first being described Shadowrun when I wasn't sure it would be fun, i've never been able to imagine a system that would work with guns well. I always thought in terms of DnD's lots of health gun does this much damage and at some point it would be rediculous how many bullets you can take. anyways off topic main point. When I heard about Shadowrun it was described to me that there are no "Classes" you make your character how you want. It was very appealing to me once I started making it. Confusing, I didn't know half what I was doing, and I may have built my character slightly illegaly within the BP but i know i'm pretty close.
It's the same with progression in shadowrun which needless to say seems very slow, however! you can alter that by giving out more Karma. And it gives the PC's the options to take their character go in which ever direction they want to go. I mean they may not always kick the most ass sometimes when they make their character as is with my GF. I resist trying to influence how she makes most of her characters because I often want to optimize or at least improve existing things.
In fact most recently in a DnD game I just started I rolled up a level 10 fighter. The DM gave us free range to do whatever we wanted well I've never played a straight up fighter, and I decided I wasn't going to worry about stats whatever i got was what i got and the highest one I decided was going into Charisma. Got an 18 so I put i there. (>.> it's 20 Charisma now..... <.< don't ask)
Anyways, there's also things you can do like hand out money so they can buy items to "upgrade" their character kinda like leveling up or create homebrew items.
Two sessions ago I handed out what i consider to be a bad ass katana blade. It's a katana blade that has a heavy field around it (probably magnetic) that deflects bullets slightly. I gave it a +2 dodge bonus if your getting shot at with bullets. I came up with the item because I would love to have an item like that. (most of the time i give away items i want for my character lol)
So I think there are plenty of incentives you could drop, they could "pick them up on the mission" like the guy who got that katana sword in my game. They happened to be in a companies territory and found that on the way out. It's a test version and he could probably sell it for a quite a bit of money but he wants it because it's unique. xD
(hopefully that answered your question?)
Edit: I saw the besides Nuyen and Karma in your post when i reread so this might not answer your questino at all... :'( well maybe the unique item i mentioned might help. *shrugs*
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Gear and Money.
Allows the players to go under the knife and cyber up. For the Karma players (Mages, Adepts and Technomancers [oh, my!]), you can put the optional Karma for Nuyen house-rule into place.
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Gear and Money.
Allows the players to go under the knife and cyber up. For the Karma players (Mages, Adepts and Technomancers [oh, my!]), you can put the optional Karma for Nuyen house-rule into place.
Does that work reverse in your house Fastjack? For example "buying Karma" with your Nuyen? <.< Just a thought.
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Gear and Money.
Allows the players to go under the knife and cyber up. For the Karma players (Mages, Adepts and Technomancers [oh, my!]), you can put the optional Karma for Nuyen house-rule into place.
Does that work reverse in your house Fastjack? For example "buying Karma" with your Nuyen? <.< Just a thought.
We really haven't gotten to that point yet in the game. So far, everybody's been pretty happy with the gear and Karma in the adventures.
I should also say that I'm running a campaign that has a complete adventure every time we meet, so they meet the Johnson at the beginning and are wrapping up the mission at the end. I've been averaging 10-15 Karma and 15,000¥-25,000¥ (each team member) a session. If it seems a bit high, it's because I'm intending it that way. The story's pretty "high-level" (i.e., very powerful foes) and they are playing the missions like Leverage/A-Team (high on planning for every contingency).
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Karma and nuyen are the rewards (that and surviving).
Instead of gaining a few predefined powers at certain preordained times you just slowly grow and develop your character. D&D is just a lot of sudden insight or "your power has grown". I think the SR way is much more realistic. You can get anything with karma and nuyen so reward extra if you feel like it.
Regards
Rasmus
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The problem I've seen in most of the different tables I've sat at is a lot of GMs don't give sufficient downtime to their players. There isn't time to train, to go under the knife, to go on astral quests, to code your own software, to research your own spells, to customize your own weapons or vehicles, to create your own foci, and so on and so forth. Some of those things take months at a time. But instead of allowing for that, it's just one crazy mission after another. Downtime is when all the real improvements to a character occur, so skipping that is a pretty serious setback.
That said, I personally hate systems that use the class and level dynamic for character advancement. It's nearly always silly and unbelievable, and you're hard pressed to find any real examples of it in fantasy/sci-fi literature or films.
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The problem I've seen in most of the different tables I've sat at is a lot of GMs don't give sufficient downtime to their players. There isn't time to train, to go under the knife, to go on astral quests, to code your own software, to research your own spells, to customize your own weapons or vehicles, to create your own foci, and so on and so forth. Some of those things take months at a time. But instead of allowing for that, it's just one crazy mission after another. Downtime is when all the real improvements to a character occur, so skipping that is a pretty serious setback.
That said, I personally hate systems that use the class and level dynamic for character advancement. It's nearly always silly and unbelievable, and you're hard pressed to find any real examples of it in fantasy/sci-fi literature or films.
I would say it depends on how quickly you level up in your games. I believe my Dnd group probably plays a slower leveling game.
Anywhere from 400exp-700exp a session. Our "Main characters" have been played over a year and the highest have reached level 7 not long ago. Has been interesting to say the least.
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Swag isn't just nuyen or gear.
You could let your players sponsor a gang. Take over an abandoned industrial park. Buy and grow a politician.
There are all sorts of ways to "level up" your game.
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The problem I've seen in most of the different tables I've sat at is a lot of GMs don't give sufficient downtime to their players. There isn't time to train, to go under the knife, to go on astral quests, to code your own software, to research your own spells, to customize your own weapons or vehicles, to create your own foci, and so on and so forth. Some of those things take months at a time. But instead of allowing for that, it's just one crazy mission after another. Downtime is when all the real improvements to a character occur, so skipping that is a pretty serious setback.
I'd like to, but I started GMing a group starting 2070 and telling the emergence story in a timeframe which allows long downtimes seems extraordinarily difficult. Except of prolonging it.
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Thanks. Good stuff guys.
Hope it didn't come off like I was complaining about the game. I'm just always curious what other stuff GMs come up with to keep their games fresh.
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It's the loot, loot, loot that make the boys get up and shoot.
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The problem I've seen in most of the different tables I've sat at is a lot of GMs don't give sufficient downtime to their players. There isn't time to train, to go under the knife, to go on astral quests, to code your own software, to research your own spells, to customize your own weapons or vehicles, to create your own foci, and so on and so forth. Some of those things take months at a time. But instead of allowing for that, it's just one crazy mission after another. Downtime is when all the real improvements to a character occur, so skipping that is a pretty serious setback.
This was even worse in the older editions, where you had Deckers that wanted to upgrade their Decks and Programs - those things took forever to do at the higher ranks. One of my players was frustrated that the team wanted to run all the time, and he wanted downtime to improve...
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The problem I've seen in most of the different tables I've sat at is a lot of GMs don't give sufficient downtime to their players. There isn't time to train, to go under the knife, to go on astral quests, to code your own software, to research your own spells, to customize your own weapons or vehicles, to create your own foci, and so on and so forth. Some of those things take months at a time. But instead of allowing for that, it's just one crazy mission after another. Downtime is when all the real improvements to a character occur, so skipping that is a pretty serious setback.
This was even worse in the older editions, where you had Deckers that wanted to upgrade their Decks and Programs - those things took forever to do at the higher ranks. One of my players was frustrated that the team wanted to run all the time, and he wanted downtime to improve...
Depends do they earn enough to do their lifestyles? I'm not sure my group makes enough to stop running though I haven't started keeping track of time in my games yet so who knows. xD
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The problem I've seen in most of the different tables I've sat at is a lot of GMs don't give sufficient downtime to their players. There isn't time to train, to go under the knife, to go on astral quests, to code your own software, to research your own spells, to customize your own weapons or vehicles, to create your own foci, and so on and so forth. Some of those things take months at a time. But instead of allowing for that, it's just one crazy mission after another. Downtime is when all the real improvements to a character occur, so skipping that is a pretty serious setback.
This was even worse in the older editions, where you had Deckers that wanted to upgrade their Decks and Programs - those things took forever to do at the higher ranks. One of my players was frustrated that the team wanted to run all the time, and he wanted downtime to improve...
Depends do they earn enough to do their lifestyles? I'm not sure my group makes enough to stop running though I haven't started keeping track of time in my games yet so who knows. xD
They wanted to do as many runs as possible to save ¥ to buy more toys, where the Decker wanted to make his toys.
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As for downtime, I always give the players a little down time between missions (usually a week). Of course, it's sometimes shorter (in the case of a string of runs for an overall story arc) and sometimes longer. (if they messed up a run, the next job takes longer to find).
Also, I let my players dictate if and when they take "time off" from running the shadows (to do those surgeries, get at wiz piece of gear, etc)
so far the most they have taken off is 3 months straight. When this happens, I make them pay out their lifestyle costs, then fill them in on the "word on the street" as it happens. (like the war in/around south America, or the rise of tempo, the out break of a underworld turf war, etc)
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The story's pretty "high-level" (i.e., very powerful foes) and they are playing the missions like Leverage/A-Team (high on planning for every contingency).
... can I be in your game??
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Gear and Money.
Allows the players to go under the knife and cyber up. For the Karma players (Mages, Adepts and Technomancers [oh, my!]), you can put the optional Karma for Nuyen house-rule into place.
What rule is that?
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Gear and Money.
Allows the players to go under the knife and cyber up. For the Karma players (Mages, Adepts and Technomancers [oh, my!]), you can put the optional Karma for Nuyen house-rule into place.
What rule is that?
An optional rule from SR2 and SR3 where you could cash in Nuyen for Karma or Karma for Nuyen, depending on the character's need(s).
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Gear and Money.
Allows the players to go under the knife and cyber up. For the Karma players (Mages, Adepts and Technomancers [oh, my!]), you can put the optional Karma for Nuyen house-rule into place.
What rule is that?
An optional rule from SR2 and SR3 where you could cash in Nuyen for Karma or Karma for Nuyen, depending on the character's need(s).
It's stuck around as a house rule in many games as a way to balance out Razorboys/girls and Mages advancement.
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Gear and Money.
Allows the players to go under the knife and cyber up. For the Karma players (Mages, Adepts and Technomancers [oh, my!]), you can put the optional Karma for Nuyen house-rule into place.
What rule is that?
An optional rule from SR2 and SR3 where you could cash in Nuyen for Karma or Karma for Nuyen, depending on the character's need(s).
It's stuck around as a house rule in many games as a way to balance out Razorboys/girls and Mages advancement.
That is actually not a bad idea. I think...
But at what exchange ration?
Rasmus
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Gear and Money.
Allows the players to go under the knife and cyber up. For the Karma players (Mages, Adepts and Technomancers [oh, my!]), you can put the optional Karma for Nuyen house-rule into place.
What rule is that?
An optional rule from SR2 and SR3 where you could cash in Nuyen for Karma or Karma for Nuyen, depending on the character's need(s).
It's stuck around as a house rule in many games as a way to balance out Razorboys/girls and Mages advancement.
That is actually not a bad idea. I think...
But at what exchange ration?
Rasmus
Use the Karmagen system in Runner's Companion: 1 Karma = 2,500¥
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Gear and Money.
Allows the players to go under the knife and cyber up. For the Karma players (Mages, Adepts and Technomancers [oh, my!]), you can put the optional Karma for Nuyen house-rule into place.
What rule is that?
An optional rule from SR2 and SR3 where you could cash in Nuyen for Karma or Karma for Nuyen, depending on the character's need(s).
It's stuck around as a house rule in many games as a way to balance out Razorboys/girls and Mages advancement.
That is actually not a bad idea. I think...
But at what exchange ration?
Rasmus
Use the Karmagen system in Runner's Companion: 1 Karma = 2,500¥
Does that work well for you, or does it need tweaking now and then? And do you put a cap on it?
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I've suggested that rule for my group, and even showed them the spirit they'd be dealing with...
(http://www.deviantart.com/download/61312969/COOPER_by_quick2004.jpg)
I think I did too good a job explaining how it happens. I had one player sobbing and going, "I don't want him to have part of my soul!
Art by quick2004 on dA (http://quick2004.deviantart.com/).
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Gear and Money.
Allows the players to go under the knife and cyber up. For the Karma players (Mages, Adepts and Technomancers [oh, my!]), you can put the optional Karma for Nuyen house-rule into place.
What rule is that?
An optional rule from SR2 and SR3 where you could cash in Nuyen for Karma or Karma for Nuyen, depending on the character's need(s).
It's stuck around as a house rule in many games as a way to balance out Razorboys/girls and Mages advancement.
That is actually not a bad idea. I think...
But at what exchange ration?
Rasmus
Use the Karmagen system in Runner's Companion: 1 Karma = 2,500¥
Does that work well for you, or does it need tweaking now and then? And do you put a cap on it?
I'm not using it in my current campaign, mostly because it hasn't come up yet.
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My group runs with 2 to 3 awakened and I'm reaching this point now in my adventures. I am seriously considering allowing a karma-for-cash swap, I am just not too sure if this is a good idea overall :(
My group's adept already has a powerful weapon focus so that purchase is done :( yet he's got a bank account that would make most corp execs green with envy!
My cyberboys and gun bunnies always got that "next whizz <insert item> that they just got to have" to keep them mostly in check (for the moment).
Yet, I can see the flaws too. Karma is helps to limt the power of magic VS metal. Start making karma too "available" and you risk making the magical side of the team out strip the rest of the players.
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Yet, I can see the flaws too. Karma helps to limit the power of magic VS metal. Start making karma too "available" and you risk making the magical side of the team out strip the rest of the players.
I would just like to point out, here, that even really green Magicians are treated as a hugely valuable commodity in the fluff/lore I've read in the books (example: "Fresh Meat", SR4A p76-79), which is quite right since we all know the #1 rule of a firefight is "Geek the mage first."
Plus, if the mage has that much money in the bank and no more fun things to buy that they need more money for, why doesn't the character just buy a Lifestyle permanently and retire?
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Here's an idea. It's a Role playing game. Make it about something for the role. Make it a pride issue for the character. Someone messes with his home turf, his family, have his bank account hacked, embarrass the character so he or she has to act or loose face or more. Karma is worth it, but having 3.2 mil swiped from their account and have to do a run to get it back can be worth it.
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My group usually meets every two weeks. I usually give about 4-6 Karma per session, with 1 point for Humor (however gets me to pass out with laughter). I also grant extra karma for out of game things that help (like detailed background stories... best source of plot hooks ever) or things that help me out personally (20 Karma for anyone that helps me move into my new place)...
Cash is a little on the low side for now since they are all starting very low (650 Karma on Karma build system), but one they that I make sure players know is that when factoring how much a client is willing to pay, I take the base pay, add (Total Street Rep * 5)% and subtract (Total Notoriety * 15)%. It helps make sure that those players that would normally steal anything that it's nailed down realize that they get more cash in the long run if they stay professional... So far, the party has been through two quick plots (6 sessions) and made around 60,000 Y total.
I make sure that between sessions, there is at least two weeks of down time if not more. This usually gives the players enough time to raise one-two skills and get a few new pieces of gear. If the party wants more down time, they just let me know, but 3 consecutive months between jobs costs one point of Street Rep from each PC.
So far, I haven't had to use the Karma for Nuyen rule or vica versa and it seems to holding well.
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Slow levelling has been one of the biggest problems I've had with SR as a player (I like roleplaying, but seeing my character gain power and knowing it's getting somewhere is important too) and for a long time I thought the SR system was to blame for this. But then after some different GMs I found that this doesn't have to be the case.
* Increasing the rewards, in pay but most importantly in karma rewards did a lot to give a sense of improving. (We started playing with Missions 2 and all got the feeling there just wasn't any character progression, we were gaining maybe 3-5 karma every month of playtime; at that rate just increasing a stat from 5 to 6 would take at least a year. So after some testing, we set to receiving the same amount of karma after every play session depending on how much progress we made, what/how we did etc.
* Karma for Nuyen (and vice versa) have been used successfully. (I never got the feeling this let the mage get too far away from the non-magic-users in the group. Also allowed the 0.1 essence sammy to get some better-grade 'ware because he was "stuck" and the gun nut/rigger to actually be able to one day buy that ridiculously expensive weapon/bot of his dreams (damned that ceramic components price!))
* But the most rewarding improvement in character progression ended up being roleplaying, not charbuilding, rewards. (Playing as part of a gang and saving up money to improve your neighborhood and upgrade your gang's gear from leather coats and knives to Armored Jackets with a gang logo and Predators or Uzi's, great fun! Gaining a new contact that looks like it could actually become a very valuable friend/asset if you work it right, awesome! Just being called to a meeting in a exclusive place where you get to skip the 2 hour line and just walk in the VIP entrance gave a great "look at us, we're in the big leagues now" ego boost.)
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Here's an idea. It's a Role playing game. Make it about something for the role. Make it a pride issue for the character. Someone messes with his home turf, his family, have his bank account hacked, embarrass the character so he or she has to act or loose face or more. Karma is worth it, but having 3.2 mil swiped from their account and have to do a run to get it back can be worth it.
Pride and Respect. It's two things that are both easy and hard to find in people at times. Sometimes they have them in spades, somethings they have anything but that.
If the character is well-built storyline wise (Or the right Qualities), you'll be able to figure out what theirs is (or isn't, as the case may be), and play off those two things.
Sometimes, it can be as simple as stealing an retired soldier's armoured jacket with his denied unit patch on it. Hell, Highwater, and all the Devil's Shadowrunners won't stop that soldier from getting it back. And Heaven better stay the hell out of the way as well, as that'll be crushed as well.
Sometimes it can be as complex as actually rebuilding an entire life from scratch. SIN, house, spouse, geneformed puppydog with the waggily tail and a 80-year lifespan... And then show the price of it all.
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Gear and Money.
Allows the players to go under the knife and cyber up. For the Karma players (Mages, Adepts and Technomancers [oh, my!]), you can put the optional Karma for Nuyen house-rule into place.
Wasn't aware that SR4 had that optional rule anywhere. Kinda curious where it is, because I likes it :)
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Gear and Money.
Allows the players to go under the knife and cyber up. For the Karma players (Mages, Adepts and Technomancers [oh, my!]), you can put the optional Karma for Nuyen house-rule into place.
Wasn't aware that SR4 had that optional rule anywhere. Kinda curious where it is, because I likes it :)
Answer was posted earlier: It's an optional rule from earlier editions they stick to.
Gear and Money.
Allows the players to go under the knife and cyber up. For the Karma players (Mages, Adepts and Technomancers [oh, my!]), you can put the optional Karma for Nuyen house-rule into place.
What rule is that?
An optional rule from SR2 and SR3 where you could cash in Nuyen for Karma or Karma for Nuyen, depending on the character's need(s).
It's stuck around as a house rule in many games as a way to balance out Razorboys/girls and Mages advancement.
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Oh, all right then. May just end up bringing it back myself at some point. Just need to figure up a good exchange rate. I've done something completely broken with the 1000 nuyen for 1 karma default...
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Oh, all right then. May just end up bringing it back myself at some point. Just need to figure up a good exchange rate. I've done something completely broken with the 1000 nuyen for 1 karma default...
Wasn't it 2,500¥ = 1 Karma?
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Yeah
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Shadowrun Companion for SR3 gave two figures for getting Karma for nuyen. One was 100 nuyen for 1 karma and the other was 1000 nuyen for 1 karma. Personally, I have seen what 1000/1 can do if a character has accumulated 12 mill, so that might be a bit low...then again who is gonna be able to accumulate that much cash in most cases. (The GM was kinda foolish in handing out pay.)
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that's one of those things that you need to make sure you don't set it as a hard fast rule but allow as a trial basis.
adjust the game as needed constantly
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that's one of those things that you need to make sure you don't set it as a hard fast rule but allow as a trial basis.
adjust the game as needed constantly
Yeah, definitely one of those things that you try out and adjust as needed. Depending on how much money you give to your players per run, I'd say start at the 1000/1 ratio and if that seems to be too little for your game increase gradually until you get to a good "sweet spot". Now if you're really stingy with giving good pay, the 100/1 might work.
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i'd prolly stick with the 2,500¥ per 1 karma to begin with, as i don't think karma should be easy to gain
though i might pull an exchange bank buy and sell rates concept
buy karma (2,500¥ each)
buy ¥ (1 karma gets you 1000¥)
fair? maybe
usable? if they choose to
remember folks: SR is definitely an "all things go against the player" / "round to the detriment of the player" sort of world
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I just viewed it as an economy, buy low, sell high.
I also had a free spirit in mind to do it with, but I should stop showing him as anyone I play with is scared to use the rule. ;D
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remember folks: SR is definitely an "all things go against the player" / "round to the detriment of the player" sort of world
Actually, SR says to round to the player's benefit. ;D
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which edition?
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which edition?
SR4. The text always says "round up" when it's to the player's benefit to be higher, and "round down" when it's to the player's benefit to be lower. That's just what I've gathered from reading the books, though.
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hmmm, the question is: will this change anything about how i run SR?
answer: not likely
i like it gritty, punishing and mean.
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Well, I know SR4 isn't that simple, in either case... some scenarios, you are always rounding up (like Unarmed Combat damage is Str/2, round up regardless of whose doing the hitting), where in others, you are always rounding down (like Drain code modifier is always Force / 2 round down).
I believe the intent is round up or down base on what is better for the person invoking the need for rounding in the first place, not necessarily the players.
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Well, I know SR4 isn't that simple, in either case... some scenarios, you are always rounding up (like Unarmed Combat damage is Str/2, round up regardless of whose doing the hitting), where in others, you are always rounding down (like Drain code modifier is always Force / 2 round down).
I believe the intent is round up or down base on what is better for the person invoking the need for rounding in the first place, not necessarily the players.
Did not know that for the Str. Going to have to remember that one.
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Re: Cash for Karma -- the suggestions for it also recommend the GM add / subtract a random amount every time he allows the exchange -- if the base is roughly 1000¥ per point of karma, perhaps he sets it at 800¥ + (1d6 * 100¥) per point, or + 2d6 * 50¥. Keeps the players from calculating just exactly how much Karma they can buy.
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Getting players invested in the lives of their characters is key because it sets a base incentive that the players themselves have created for their characters. Case in point, I have 3 regular players (and one not-so-regular, and one that just joined in). Of the 3 regulars, 2 have no issues with finding things to do during downtime; the face/hacker has been learning Pilot: Ground Vehicles and writing his own programs to use and sell in the shadowmarkets, the mage is learning Arcana skill while searching for members to found a magical group that are also of his Hindi tradition. The Face/Hacker is the "best" example because he set up a clear hobby for his character. The mage is more nebulous and dependent on Karma as his plans are learn Arcana (karma cost), found magical group (karma cost), initiate (karma cost), and so on. So if the mage runs out of Karma then he's "done" until he earns more, while the Face/Hacker keeps on coding and mingling in the Matrix. But in the last couple of sessions the mage has also decided to date on of his contacts so that brings in "the relationship" angle which has no inherent Karma needs and can be used as a plot hook and/or source of information.
The 3rd regular player is tough. A 17 year old near-feral physad who had been kidnapped a few years ago from the Scottish wilds, taken to Seattle where she escaped and now lives in the shadows. There's little attachment to the modern world in general and Seattle in particular. Knowledge skills center mostly around Fey and Scotland. She decided to initiate but used the meditation/fasting ordeal which took a month...of her doing noting but meditating and fasting...in her house...alone. The player, on the other hand, is the most gregarious role-player of the group, he DM's his own game on a different night, and is the most thought-out and well planned player of the group. While he specifically decided to take a back seat so the other players could shine in the Shadowrun campaign, it's often obvious that he's bored during down time...which is partly his "fault" as he already knows what he wants to do, how to do it, and requires very little hand-holding. It's partly the other players' faults as they are more nebulous, do most of their rules-reading at the game table, and tend to have many many questions. And it's also partly my fault for not finding a better way to speed up the other two player's downtime rolls and conversations so that all three generally (over the long haul) average out to have equal time (can't always happen every session, but over many I hope to smooth things out).
But ultimately, having the characters have hobbies (running-related or not) is key.
As for the Karma for Cash, I've modified the older editions version to the following house rule:
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Karma for Cash (Fizzygoo House Rule)
Characters may permanently spend their Karma points to receive nuyen. The amount of nuyen a character receives per Karma point is dependent upon their Lifestyle rating (SR4A 267-268, or Runner's Companion 153).
Characters roll 3D6 and multiply that by their Lifestyle's modifier, listed below;
| Lifestyle | Modifier |
| Street | x 10 nuyen |
| Squatter | x 25 nuyen |
| Low | x 100 nuyen |
| Middle | x 250 nuyen |
| High | x 500 nuyen |
| Luxury | x 5000 nuyen |
Characters must use the Lifestyle level that they had prior to the start of the adventure for which they were awarded the karma. For example if a character with a Low Lifestyle finishes a run and uses their nuyen from that run to increase their Lifestyle to High, if they use Karma from that run for cash they must use their Low Lifestyle modifier. Only after their next run at High Lifestyle can they use the High Lifestyle modifier.
This money earned from Karma is generally assumed to be anything from payment from others for favors done or odd jobs to gambling wins to selling odd bits of paydata found while doing background non-run hacking to playing the stockmarket...all dependent on the character's over all Lifestyle.
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Note that my players have not used this yet so it may (probably will) require adjustments.
Hehe, Wyrm you and I are on the same wavelength here...keep 'em guessing :)
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i think i'll end up using d20x50¥ for base and 2d6x50¥ additional,
that makes the min they could have to sell karma for cash is 1 karma for 150¥ and the max is 1 karma for 1600¥.
and no rerolls or edge, just yes or no to the deal.
might have to make it a run just to meet the "person" that can do this deal for them.
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I haven't had to use the Karma for Cash rule (or Cash for Karma rule) in any game I have run, mostly because I try to keep it around 1 Karma per 2,500 Y earned. However, the house rule I have played under went like this...
1. Only one transfer per month (either Karma for Cash or Cash for Karma) and it takes one week of downtime.
2. An in-game reason needs to be given for the transfer (gambling, lottery ticket, volunteering at a homeless shelter, a 'training' vacation).
3. Karma for Cash: Take the square root of the Karma spent, rounded down, times 2,500 Y
4. Cash for Karma: Take the cash spent, divide by 2,500 Y and then take the square root of the final amount, rounded down.
5. Roll Permanent Karma (SR3, TN: 5, it would now be Permanent Edge). If you get a glitch, the transfer goes through, but you are noticed (casino hounds, local newspapers, etc). On a critical glitch, the transfer does not go through and you are noticed.
This method prevented players for swapping back and forth (diminishing returns) and also prevent large amounts of swapping on the risk of failure. But it was still used for the 1 point that you were shy of raising something important or when you realized that you had no money for your Low-Lifestyle.
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i'd prolly stick with the 2,500¥ per 1 karma to begin with, as i don't think karma should be easy to gain
though i might pull an exchange bank buy and sell rates concept
buy karma (2,500¥ each)
buy ¥ (1 karma gets you 1000¥)
fair? maybe
usable? if they choose to
remember folks: SR is definitely an "all things go against the player" / "round to the detriment of the player" sort of world
I think that going the opposite way, you should get a bit more nuyen than you'd spend going to karma, so if you do 2500 for 1 karma do 1 karma gets you 3000. You need more money to get good stuff than any karma cost.
That said, I'd probably gauge my nuyen cost to buy karma by how many Awakened runners were in the game. If majority mundane characters, a lower cost to get karma wouldn't be as bad as majority Awakened, but going the other way would get less nuyen.
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That said, I'd probably gauge my nuyen cost to buy karma by how many Awakened runners were in the game. If majority mundane characters, a lower cost to get karma wouldn't be as bad as majority Awakened, but going the other way would get less nuyen.
except that's the point. in my game, karma for cash is an option, but not nearly an attractive option and not as good as running to get both.
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I haven't done it yet but may soon.
I plan to offer it via a powerful free spirit who is able to transfer the karma from one being to another. Of course, him having the needed skill means he has all the negotiating power.
Buying karma is a 3000¥ per point, selling it will get the player 2000¥. A spirit's got to make a living too after all, and I agree with Beowulf that it shouldn't be too good a deal for the players. In the real world the one who has the power would set the terms, I don't see why it should be any different in a setting that empathizes that as a central theme.
And the nice thing about using a free spirit is that it's easy to control how often the players have access to it.
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That said, I'd probably gauge my nuyen cost to buy karma by how many Awakened runners were in the game. If majority mundane characters, a lower cost to get karma wouldn't be as bad as majority Awakened, but going the other way would get less nuyen.
except that's the point. in my game, karma for cash is an option, but not nearly an attractive option and not as good as running to get both.
I think you might be slightly missing the point, here.
Magicians can't touch much in the way of 'Ware or it screws them, big time, so they lose out on all the quick power boosts that the non-awakened characters. That means that by the time Sammie the Samurai is starting to browse the Betaware or Deltaware pages of the Sears Roebuck Catalog, so she can really start stacking the upgrades, Mac the Mage is running out of things to buy and pacing his penthouse apartment champing at the bit for more Karma so he can afford to bond his Force 6 Power Focus while spotting Sammie a loan for ¥20,000 because, hell, what else is he gonna do with it?
Sammie, on the other hand, has Karma to burn but is constantly broke and having to live in a leaky, abandoned warehouse while eating unflavored soy (not to mention hitting up her teammates for more funds) to buy her next mod, while spending her down-time (and Karma) getting her Underwater Basket Weaving to 6 because she's got everything she actually needs hard-capped.
The conversions aren't about being "attractive", they're about characters inevitably having "wasted" resources that they can't really use, either Nuyen or Karma, and giving them a way to put them to use so they can continue developing their characters at a fulfilling pace.
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That said, I'd probably gauge my nuyen cost to buy karma by how many Awakened runners were in the game. If majority mundane characters, a lower cost to get karma wouldn't be as bad as majority Awakened, but going the other way would get less nuyen.
except that's the point. in my game, karma for cash is an option, but not nearly an attractive option and not as good as running to get both.
I think you might be slightly missing the point, here.
Magicians can't touch much in the way of 'Ware or it screws them, big time, so they lose out on all the quick power boosts that the non-awakened characters. That means that by the time Sammie the Samurai is starting to browse the Betaware or Deltaware pages of the Sears Roebuck Catalog, so she can really start stacking the upgrades, Mac the Mage is running out of things to buy and pacing his penthouse apartment champing at the bit for more Karma so he can afford to bond his Force 6 Power Focus while spotting Sammie a loan for ¥20,000 because, hell, what else is he gonna do with it?
Sammie, on the other hand, has Karma to burn but is constantly broke and having to live in a leaky, abandoned warehouse while eating unflavored soy (not to mention hitting up her teammates for more funds) to buy her next mod, while spending her down-time (and Karma) getting her Underwater Basket Weaving to 6 because she's got everything she actually needs hard-capped.
The conversions aren't about being "attractive", they're about characters inevitably having "wasted" resources that they can't really use, either Nuyen or Karma, and giving them a way to put them to use so they can continue developing their characters at a fulfilling pace.
Which is why I would use it in the first place, but Awakened parties would have to pay more nuyen because A: they'll have more nuyen because they don't need as much and B: to keep those Awakened badasses from getting too big too quick while giving the option to get that extra karma at a reasonable rate. (I think the 2500 or 3000 can work, but I'd probably go 2000 for Awakened)
On the flip side, since Sammies don't need as much karma, I'd probably let them cash in 1 karma for 2000.
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I can honestly say that I've never had a character (mundane or magic) run out of things to spend karma or nuyen on. That said, I think the main issue with Magic user's is that a lot of the things for them to spend money on also require karma to bond, so its a strategy game to plan your next purchases. The other thing I've noticed is that a lot of players don't want to spend money on anything outside their specialty (Car, Lifestyle, Clothes, etc). If a mage in my group has 200,000 in the bank and is begging for a nuyen to karma conversion, they better not be in a low lifestyle.
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I can honestly say that I've never had a character (mundane or magic) run out of things to spend karma or nuyen on. That said, I think the main issue with Magic user's is that a lot of the things for them to spend money on also require karma to bond, so its a strategy game to plan your next purchases. The other thing I've noticed is that a lot of players don't want to spend money on anything outside their specialty (Car, Lifestyle, Clothes, etc). If a mage in my group has 200,000 in the bank and is begging for a nuyen to karma conversion, they better not be in a low lifestyle.
Why not? That might be the lifestyle that makes sense for the character. Just like a D&D mage living in a not-so-extravagant place because they focused everything on their magic. Same principle there.
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I can honestly say that I've never had a character (mundane or magic) run out of things to spend karma or nuyen on. That said, I think the main issue with Magic user's is that a lot of the things for them to spend money on also require karma to bond, so its a strategy game to plan your next purchases. The other thing I've noticed is that a lot of players don't want to spend money on anything outside their specialty (Car, Lifestyle, Clothes, etc). If a mage in my group has 200,000 in the bank and is begging for a nuyen to karma conversion, they better not be in a low lifestyle.
Why not? That might be the lifestyle that makes sense for the character. Just like a D&D mage living in a not-so-extravagant place because they focused everything on their magic. Same principle there.
Very true. I would suggest that they should have a High lifestyle's worth of lifestyle costs. Maybe he lives Low, but he's got dosses and hideaways all over town. Maybe she has a zillion 'helpful roommates' she helps support, i.e. helps run an orphanage with Luxury size but Low everything else -- and 20 orphans to boot!! It's the idea that they should already be spending the money at a moderately high rate ...
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Why not? That might be the lifestyle that makes sense for the character. Just like a D&D mage living in a not-so-extravagant place because they focused everything on their magic. Same principle there.
Because people have goals to better their lives. Sometimes that goal will be to move into a better place, sometimes it will be to raise enough money to do X (pay off the mob, get son a new heart, etc.). The character should have a goal other than raise magic abilities. If the character is giving money to an orphanage and helping out, they'll be getting a reward already (contacts, loyalty, probably karma that I toss in and new plotlines). Then again, I'm more of a roleplay your character and you'll be rewarded type of GM.
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Why not? That might be the lifestyle that makes sense for the character. Just like a D&D mage living in a not-so-extravagant place because they focused everything on their magic. Same principle there.
Because people have goals to better their lives. Sometimes that goal will be to move into a better place, sometimes it will be to raise enough money to do X (pay off the mob, get son a new heart, etc.). The character should have a goal other than raise magic abilities. If the character is giving money to an orphanage and helping out, they'll be getting a reward already (contacts, loyalty, probably karma that I toss in and new plotlines). Then again, I'm more of a roleplay your character and you'll be rewarded type of GM.
I'm sorry, but am I the only one who sees the double standard here? Crash, stop and think about what 'Raise magic abilities' (a game system concept) can mean in game. The guy (or girl) could be tossing everything they have at gaining knowledge. Who cares that there are devil rats gnawing on the edges of the pizza boxes and that the thing they left in their fridge last year has just sued for rights under the MetaSentient Act of 2072? Who cares that the only reason they pay power is to run their memory farm that stores Every Last Megapulse of every single mage-centric board in their language? What drives the character is an unrelenting desire, nay, an obsession, with finding out what's new in magic, what could be, what theories are there -- and then trying them out themselves. 'Congrats, you just got a million nuyen, what're you going to do with it?' "Buy out the guy in the slum apartment next door so I can knock down the wall and expand my magic circle; there's a new theory in MetaPlanar News that suggests that binding is easier if you nest your circles..."
How is this not roleplaying? It may be that the player says 'all my ¥¥¥ and Karma is going to improve my magic abilities', but how that happens sure as hell can be roleplaying. 'Better my life' means something completely different from person to person. Saying that 'people have goals to better their lives' and then denying that obsessively improving one part of their life is a valid goal is denying that individual the right to RP their character the way they want.
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Very nice description, almost makes me think you've played a character like that.... o.O'
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I write; I role-play, which is for the purposes of this discussion more to the point. If the player wants to do something crazy with their off-time, or throw all their time and money (Karma and Cash) at one thing, it's the GM's role in the game to work with them to figure out how that's done and how it's RPed. Doesn't matter if it's the hermetic learning magic skills or the ork street sam obsessing over 'My Little Brony'; This Is What The Player Wants For The Character, so it's up to the GM to either a) give him what he wants, b) make him work for what he wants, or c) make him rue the day he wanted it; in all three cases, though, he should d) make getting it interesting and enjoyable, even if that's a rueful kind of enjoyment.*
And yes, I did. The Wyrm was very much in this vein for the first several years of his RP existence; he didn't much care for living conditions, all his cash went to improving his gear -- usually his 'deck. Later, refining his 'ware, or reverse-engineering 'ware in order to put it into his deck so that he'd get the advantages while hacking.
* -- Of the 'yeah, an ork street sam surrounded by all of the pissed-off Red Hot Nukes -- and that's when things got bad...' variety. Stories of how bad it got can be as fun as stories of kicking so much ass you need to just take down initials, 'cause it'd take too long to take names.
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Saying that 'people have goals to better their lives' and then denying that obsessively improving one part of their life is a valid goal is denying that individual the right to RP their character the way they want.
In that example, your character had a goal that wasn't just "raise magical ability", he wanted find the answer. He wanted to expand his living area to fit more things in.
I think the conflicting point here is that I don't think its a GM's job to come up with how a character does improving in these situations. I think its the players job and the GM's job to referee what does and doesn't work in their game.
If a player says, I want to convert my nuyen to Karma (or Karma to nuyen) my first question is what are you doing to get it done?
I don't think there need to be hard and fast conversion rules. If a player tells me he's donating to charity, I'm going to give him a poor conversion rate because the character is literally just clicking a few AROs in VR and feels a bit better about themselves. If a player tells me I'm going to go down and work at the shelter, help teach the orphans and work on fixing the place up, he'll get a good conversion rate (but he'll be spending his down time doing this leaving him unavailable for other things). If a player just says I don't know, I just want to raise my magic abilities more, I'm going to tell him to think about it some more and get back with me.
90% of the time I see someone focus on just one thing in lieu of everything else, there is not roleplaying behind it. Usually its just metagaming in my experience, so I may be a little burnt toward it. People live, people splurge, people need attention. Those that don't are generally more than a bit crazy, but hey they have flaws for that.
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Crash, you're putting all the work on the players and making it seem more like a punishment for their choices unless they come up with really great reasons. I'm all for pushing the players to think 'in-character' for this stuff, but a lot of the spending Karma and stuff takes place in the down-time between runs. It's the bookkeeping part of the game and I'm okay with them just saying that they are going to exchange nuyen for Karma and move on to get to the actual story part of the game. Now, a lot of games have great RP sessions set up on what goes on between adventures, and a lot of groups love that stuff for the immersion factor. I prefer to immerse the characters in the story of the runs, with bits creeping in about their down-time lives, instead of focusing on that down-time.
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While metagaming can be a problem, for example I'm planning on making my mage more and more powerful. I constantly overcast and push my mage to the limits of his casting ability.
There's not a session I haven't played my character Scythe without casting a F12 something. xD (lightning ball!!! :D)
Guess my point is regardless whether it's just because I want to be able to throw the most powerful spell anyone at our table will ever see (and quite possibly blow myself up in the process) I'm sure my DM and/or when I DM woud let that conversion happen. I don't see it as game breaking. Maybe I will when I introduce it. *shrugs*
Can't wait to cast that F20 Stun Ball/Lightning Ball/Lightning Bolt/Orgy xD
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Can't wait to cast that F20 Stun Ball/Lightning Ball/Lightning Bolt/Orgy xD
All at once?!?... ouch...
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Can't wait to cast that F20 Stun Ball/Lightning Ball/Lightning Bolt/Orgy xD
All at once?!?... ouch...
No but that would be epic. I'd have to save my 6 edge for that occasion. :D
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I guess I usually run with a weird bunch. The only game I've ever run that didn't focus equally on run time and down time is Missions. Most of my SR experience was 3rd ed, but usually we had enough enemies and personal backgrounds stacked up that going out of town for a run was like a vacation. We also Blue Booked a lot of the behind the scenes including gear purchases and training.