Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Mason on <10-27-11/1345:20>
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So, in the Shadowrun world, elfs and dwarfs are born that way, forming as their metatype in the womb. Orks and trolls, OTOH, form as a human and then suddenly change into their metatype at puberty, unless their parents were already Goblinized in which case they are born as the metatype of the parents. My question is, then, does it happen anywhere in the fluff that a person can be born to human parents but be born an ork (troll might be kinda hard) or that a human can "Goblinize" into a dwarf or an elf? I have seen a few characters who change into elves run in people's home games, but I don't think the fluff ever says that such is possible. But I have not read all of the novels and sourcebooks yet.
Does anyone know of a case of this unusual occurrence happening in official Shadowrun? Is it a possible concept in standard Shadowrun? Or is it doomed to always be a house rule "whatever works for you" thing relegated to some people's groups?
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There's no fluff about it, but I don't see the problem of "Goblinizing" into elves & dwarves. However, an ork or troll pregnancy may be more difficult on other metahumans, so I'd probably leave it at Goblinizing at puberty.
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The events were about a decade apart, right? I don't have my timeline on me. It's possible that elves and dwarves can exist at a lower magic level than orks and trolls; as magic began to return, at the low magic level their return was gentler, with just enough magic to activate the latent metagenes in developing fetuses, but not enough to fully transform fully grown humans. The orks and trolls returned when the magic level was a bit higher, high enough to transform fully grown humans. It is also possible that the metagenes for dwarves and elves are not dominant over human genes, while the opposite is true of ork and troll metagenes.
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I think it said in one of the books that people didn't change into elves or dwarves. They were born that way. However, you can either be born as an ork or troll, or goblinize into one if you're a human (especially a human born to ork or troll parents). And then there's SURGE.
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I think it said in one of the books that people didn't change into elves or dwarves. They were born that way. However, you can either be born as an ork or troll, or goblinize into one if you're a human (especially a human born to ork or troll parents). And then there's SURGE.
Did someone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2_VZ2Guwc4) say SURGE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTY8hrvFck8)?
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Some things should have stayed in the 90s.
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Some things should have stayed in the 90s.
Yes, youngsters, guys dressed like that back then. Not me, of course, I was too busy MUDing.
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This is kind of what I imagine food commercials are like in 2070. Only instead of extreme sports, they have Urban Brawl players endorsing Nukit Burgers and such.
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This is kind of what I imagine food commercials are like in 2070. Only instead of extreme sports, they have Urban Brawl players endorsing Nukit Burgers and such.
I'm thinking the Fruity Oaty Bar commercial from Serenity.
As for Urban Brawl, the 2002 version of Rollerball has an example of endorsements near the beginning. "Do it again, Label out!"
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Does anyone know of a case of this unusual occurrence happening in official Shadowrun? Is it a possible concept in standard Shadowrun? Or is it doomed to always be a house rule "whatever works for you" thing relegated to some people's groups?
I think it said in one of the books that people didn't change into elves or dwarves. They were born that way. However, you can either be born as an ork or troll, or goblinize into one if you're a human (especially a human born to ork or troll parents). And then there's SURGE.
Mirikon is right; at this point, SURGE means you can 'goblinize' into a metatype. It isn't typical, and the sense I get is that even SURGE isn't common any more as the 'bump' caused by Halley's passing has receded.
As it was pre-SURGE, elves and dwarves were born. So, actually, were many/most orks and trolls by 2050-2060; an actual 'Goblinization' event was relatively infrequent. There's actually a discussion about this in one of the books, though I don't recall which one, or even which edition; heck, I don't even remember if it's an IC convo or a game-concepts talk. However, the discussion talked about the essentials of Shadowrun genetics -- no half-elves or half-orks or half-anything, the genetic dominance of ork/troll genes over elf/dwarf, should two such of 'mixed metahumanity' interbreed, the occasional expression of a human baby to ork/troll parents (which sometimes Goblinized at puberty, but sometimes stayed human for the rest of their lives), that sort of thing. Very interesting reading.
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I think there was some talk about that in the 3e Tir Tairngir book.
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State of the Art 2063 has a pretty good writeup on Sixth World genetics.
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Goblinization is still possible, but very, very rare.
Most races "breed true" these days, though that's not always the case. It doesn't come up much (And I;'d like to play with it more some day), but any race can give birth to any other race. The odds are miniscule, but it's possible. Be funny for two elves to pop out a baby Troll though. :)
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Goblinization is still possible, but very, very rare.
Most races "breed true" these days, though that's not always the case. It doesn't come up much (And I;'d like to play with it more some day), but any race can give birth to any other race. The odds are miniscule, but it's possible. Be funny for two elves to pop out a baby Troll though. :)
...not if you're the mother...
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Actually, IIRC, what typically happens when it's a Goblinized Metatype is they're born human (Even if it's two Elves), and then Goblinize at some time before or during puberty.
Inter-Metatype marriages deal with this all the time. Human females that marry Ork males don't give birth to litters like an Ork woman would, but would give birth to either orks, humans, or humans that will goblinize.
At least, that's how I read and understand things.
EDIT: It does make for one hell of a strange Parent-Teacher interview at Portland High School when Little Johnny Windwillow when he suddenly outgrows all of his clothing. ;) On the bright side, sports scholarship at the university of his choice!!! ;D
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I do have a few Metahuman Rights activists who are human children of Ork parents ... they just grew up 'runty', as it were.
Which was quite fun when a character took a shine to one. Rebecca brings him home to meet her family... and there's her Ork mom, Ork dad, five sisters, and seven brothers, all Orks but her.
...
What can I say? The Munsters knew how to work the angles. :)
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It is my understanding from what I read goblinization is not as common as it once was, most ork and troll babbies come from ork and troll parents now. There is something of interest is that those that go though goblinization (the first generation of orks and trolls) tend to live far longer than their children, even may out live their grand children, and that orks and trolls may have a much shorter lifespan than other metahummans.
I think the human children of orks could just be orks with the human looking quality.
If you point to SURGE and changelings that was a YotC thing and there have been cases of SURGE sense then, although I am not sure about changelings' children.
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Well, part of the reason for the shorter lifespan is environmental. How many orks and trolls do you see in the middle to luxury lifestyles? The majority of them are low or lower.
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Well, part of the reason for the shorter lifespan is environmental. How many orks and trolls do you see in the middle to luxury lifestyles? The majority of them are low or lower.
Part, but not the whole reason. Goblinized Orks and Trolls lived in the same conditions and still lived average human lifetimes while their descendants lived far less.
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Well, part of the reason for the shorter lifespan is environmental. How many orks and trolls do you see in the middle to luxury lifestyles? The majority of them are low or lower.
Which, actually, isn't part of the reason at all -- or rather, it's as much part of the reason as the difference for anybody living in 'reduced circumstances'. Orks, by canon, have a very short lifespan; not life expectancy at birth, which due to infant mortality can be gruesomely low (31 in the early 20th century), but general life span -- once you survive your infant years (5 years old), or as other research has it, once you survive to age 20. Given the latter, humans even in the Upper Paleolithic could be expected to live to age 54 or thereabouts. Disease caused the life span average for a male of the aristocracy in England to drop from 64 (1200-1300 AD) to 45 (1300-1400 AD); three cheers for the Black Death.
Orks, once they make it past 20, go to 35-45. Not 65-75; 35-45. As CanRay put it, some who Goblinized are watching their grandchildren age practically before their eyes ...
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Orks, once they make it past 20, go to 35-45. Not 65-75; 35-45. As CanRay put it, some who Goblinized are watching their grandchildren age practically before their eyes ...
"Never Trust An Elf", when you find out about Kham's Grandfather and Mother...
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Another reason why they live shorter life spans could be explained by the fact that orks tend to give birth in litters making Kate Gosselin look like a slacker. If they lived the same life expectancy of a human let a lone drawfs or elfs the world could not support that much a population,
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Probably the other way around, at least initially. Those who had multiple births were more likely to have a surviving child; natural selection takes care of the rest.
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The litters thing is new... it used to just be that Orks had a short gestation period (6 months, IIRC), and were generally poor, so their only entertainment was, erm. Baby-makin'. So, they usually had a half dozen kids, which lead to racist talk about "litters" and the like.
It's only recently turned from "Racist chatter" to canon. Which still weirds me out.
As for wealth, there's also the odd notation from Socio Pat a decade and a half ago (so ... old ...) where he noted that wealthier families were hit with UGE for Dwarf and Elf kids, while the poor were largely hit with Goblinization. In Shadowrun, the poor are simply more likely to be tusked while the wealthy are more likely to be pretty.
Which is an ... interesting ... lesson.
(You'll find that the south, for instance, had a larger-than-usual Ork and Troll population, with Appalachia having almost 10% Troll, the highest in the former US. The northwest had a larger Elf population. Dwarves don't seem common anywhere. Oh Dwarves, so easily overlooked.)
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Maybe a genetic impetus for UGE is tied to genetic intelligence?
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The bit about orks having kids in litters goes all the way back to the SR1 core book. Frankly, it's kinda stupid, but what can ya do?
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The bit about orks having kids in litters goes all the way back to the SR1 core book. Frankly, it's kinda stupid, but what can ya do?
Have a TrogRock Love Ballad about "Room For A Litter"?
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The bit about orks having kids in litters goes all the way back to the SR1 core book. Frankly, it's kinda stupid, but what can ya do?
I always look at the stuff in SR1 on the races as being "theoretical" and not empirical. That, and that some of the scientists may have been propagandizing for some Human-centric groups.
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i should point out that SR1 also says that Trolls like living id dark, secluded places, like under bridges.
Yeah.
Bull
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As for wealth, there's also the odd notation from Socio Pat a decade and a half ago (so ... old ...) where he noted that wealthier families were hit with UGE for Dwarf and Elf kids, while the poor were largely hit with Goblinization. In Shadowrun, the poor are simply more likely to be tusked while the wealthy are more likely to be pretty.
Which is an ... interesting ... lesson.
(You'll find that the south, for instance, had a larger-than-usual Ork and Troll population, with Appalachia having almost 10% Troll, the highest in the former US. The northwest had a larger Elf population. Dwarves don't seem common anywhere. Oh Dwarves, so easily overlooked.)
One theory that was put forward was that there were environmental issues that factored into the change. In other words, more well-off, better fed, healthier parents were more likely to give birth to humans, dwarves, and elves, while poorer, hungrier, and sicker parents were more likely to get orks and trolls. In addition to all the lovely contaminants you find in the Barrens.
Of course, Shadowlanders debunked that theory back in the Tir Tairngir book, saying that a couple Humanis members were the ones who did the study.
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i should point out that SR1 also says that Trolls like living id dark, secluded places, like under bridges.
Yeah.
You know I don't take that as gospel, Bull, but you and I both know a lot of people who do, and have never let the myth die....
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Yeah, it's the same "scientists" that named the races as dwarves/elves/orks/trolls. Not saying the names don't apply, but many an metahuman has not liked the JRR Tolkien stereotyping. Like some of these gems:
Dwarf
Populations form small family groups, an though they show isolationist tendencies, small enclaves are found in communities all over the world.
Elf
In wilderness areas, they prefer to live in structures built of living plants.
Ork
Individuals goblinizing into robustus usually evince negative psychological effects, with severe psychoses and aberrant behavioral patterns common. Individuals born robustus may be socialized normally
Trolls
Goblinization from sapiens to ingentis adversely affects and individual's mental condition, often resulting in psychosis and aberrant behavioral patterns.
Although, Bull, if you goblinized, that sure would explain a lot. ;)
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i should point out that SR1 also says that Trolls like living id dark, secluded places, like under bridges.
Yeah.
You know I don't take that as gospel, Bull, but you and I both know a lot of people who do, and have never let the myth die....
I know one Troll that's Underbridge. (http://fromtheshadowsrpg.blogspot.com/2007/11/advertisement-underbridge-and.html)Although, Bull, if you goblinized, that sure would explain a lot. ;)
Explain what? ;)
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given that we havea magickal event that has recreated *fantasy races*, a higher ferilitry rate in one of them is that much of a stretch, given the shorter lifespan?
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and as a homegrown modifer. I had for 5 points for Trolls and Orks for a background for 5 pts: Human Lifespan. Did it really add anything imbalancing? No, but it makes for interesting role playing when all of those of your race around you age and die a lot faster
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I know Patrick. I was just pointing out one of those wierd, amusing little tidbits from SR1 taht's always amused me. I've never really paid much attention to it myself though.
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So, where should we go for the real skinny on the Metatypes?
I want to know if my Hillbilly Elf can have hisself some steak and eggs!
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I'll admit that I never too intensely followed the 'archetypes' from 1st edition; my first character ever, the Wyrm Ouroboros (Elven Decker), has always been a big fan of Morton's of Chicago, a great steakhouse. So ...
Elves have to be vegetarians? I say enjoy your steak and eggs.
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Just thought it'd be a bit of flavor if I ever have him flashback to a family dinner of everyone having steak, while he's stuck with salad and a bit of chopped up chicken. :P
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Just thought it'd be a bit of flavor if I ever have him flashback to a family dinner of everyone having steak, while he's stuck with salad and a bit of chopped up chicken. :P
Chicken: not that vegetarian...
I'm pretty sure that even back in SR2, it only said that most elves are vegetarian. So, I guess most of the "speciality dishes" of the two Tirs are going to be veggie, and agriculture there doesn't involve much livestock, but there's no such thing as pan-global elven culture.
Although, I suppose it's possible that elves may lack an appropriate enzyme pathway or something that allows the digestion of animal produce, which might be another way to explain it.
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Oddly enough, I have a small counter-culture in the Tir of Southern cooking.
Back when the first generation of ELves hit majority age (18-21), fir Tir na Nog, then Tir Tangire, gave clarion calls for "Homecoming" ... na Nog got a bunch of wealthy American Elves to fly over, largely from the northeast (New York, Boston, etc) to see what was up. Proto-Tir Tangire gave a more open "Any Metahuman" call and, more importantly, was in North America ... lots of impoverished folks who couldn't afford to fly to Ireland could drive, or even hitchhike, to the west coast. Quite a few were stopped at the Soiux border of course, but internal pressure from proto-Tir got the ELves through, along with a smattering of other metas. A big chunk of the Orks and Trolls were from the South, where racism was blatant and thought of the Tir as a sort of Promised Land, wher ethey could be free from all the hate.
Sadly for them, that part didn't work out so well.
Still, they brought their food with them and, while the Southern Elves largely conformed and joined greater 'Elven Society', the tusker underclass has a distinct Southern subculture. What little meat is locally grown pretty much comes from rural farms that are run by tuskers, and as they were a driving force in the early days of the uprising, a few staples got pegged as 'Freedom Food' ... most notably biscuits (Cheap, filling, easy to make and able to pass around in protest areas/stick in a coat pocket for later.)